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07-17-2017 11:05 AM
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  1. nate0's Avatar
    Where else can you find a mobile OS with a color profile or easily 500 nits brightness? Not to mention an incredible sunlight readability contrasting off-set that is also complimented with a Clear black display? Where can you find a OS this secure and still be able to side load apps? Without a bunch of add-ons where else can you find an OS with a Global dark them? Where else can you find a mobile OS that allows you to sync text/messaging sms/mms to your PC when you want or need to? What other mobile OS (besides 1) allows you to dock your device to a keyboard/mouse/display to work and do things as a PC would allow?

    All these things may not be in every device, but it is a good reason it is not dead.
    04-23-2017 01:50 PM
  2. andrew-in-woking's Avatar
    The amount of Microsoft app updates coming through and a minor OS update this week represents quite a lot of work on Microsoft's behalf so they are clearly investing in the platform to some extent.

    There seemed to be a protracted period of time when mobile network operators simply wouldn't promote Windows Phone/Mobile to consumers. It may have been MS's reputation as a business software provider but many of them definitely favoured Android and iPhones for some time. It may have been to do with support, that they don't want to have to support more than two operating systems. Whatever the reason it destroyed Microsoft's market share in mobile device operating systems and this in turn led to a failure to attract app developers.

    Some people with longer memories will remember that Microsoft got a fairly bad reputation in the 1990s for aggressively taking over the PC operating system market so I suspect some people of influence may have acted to deliberately stop Microsoft gaining market share in mobile device Operating Systems markets to prevent a repeat of the same phenomenon. This was certainly true for the guys who started Snapchat, for example.

    At this stage I wouldn't want to make a prediction about what will happen with Windows 10 Mobile, what Microsoft will do or what the mobile device market will look like in five years time but I don't think W10M could be written off as abandonware just yet!
    fatclue_98, libra89, nate0 and 1 others like this.
    04-23-2017 02:29 PM
  3. slivy58's Avatar
    There seemed to be a protracted period of time when mobile network operators simply wouldn't promote Windows Phone/Mobile to consumers. It may have been MS's reputation as a business software provider but many of them definitely favoured Android and iPhones for some time. It may have been to do with support, that they don't want to have to support more than two operating systems. Whatever the reason it destroyed Microsoft's market share in mobile device operating systems and this in turn led to a failure to attract app developers.
    Maybe that was the case or, Windows phone (prior to 2015) wasn't mature enough at the time enticing mobile operators to fully invest into it.
    04-23-2017 04:25 PM
  4. TheHeroFromDOOM's Avatar
    Phone will not work on my provider, have have to send it back. Wish I could of tried it longer but just was not in the cards. The OS how ever can be something, it's not to late at all. The smooth looking Windows OS was so easy to get use to. I hope Windows Phone gets better then it has ever been before.
    Guytronic likes this.
    04-23-2017 09:46 PM
  5. nate0's Avatar
    Here is another thought. Sometimes I think of it this way in my spare time trying understand Microsoft's infinite paradoxical shift (or was it paradigm):
    Microsoft is treading into uncharted territory. They are doing things with Windows yes, that has not been done before, but most if not all of it has not been done by any OS creator before. To me they are paving the way, and also setting the bar from here on out. I'm not certain Apple or Google will catch on or catch up to what they are doing. One, because nobody else is Microsoft. Two, neither of the 3 are on the same page (opposite agendas in some ways). Be nice if they could just create an alliance of some sort. Not saying that they really have to agree, but maybe at least try one day. Google is the only company out there making Microsoft's run for it a race. Microsoft is doing everything they can to play their cards right, because to them in some areas it could almost mean survival. It a lot of ways it is strategy. IMO mobile is the one thing they could afford as a casualty for the time being, but even though it seems like an inevitable outcome on the horizon nothing is a complete loss yet. I will add to like mentioned above in other words, just keep driving till the wheels fall off. You never know how far you or it will actually go unless you do it.

    EDIT: Have you guys read any articles yet on Windows Server on ARM? :)
    04-23-2017 10:13 PM
  6. Drael646464's Avatar
    Here is another thought. Sometimes I think of it this way in my spare time trying understand Microsoft's infinite paradoxical shift (or was it paradigm):
    Microsoft is treading into uncharted territory. They are doing things with Windows yes, that has not been done before, but most if not all of it has not been done by any OS creator before. To me they are paving the way, and also setting the bar from here on out. I'm not certain Apple or Google will catch on or catch up to what they are doing. One, because nobody else is Microsoft. Two, neither of the 3 are on the same page (opposite agendas in some ways). Be nice if they could just create an alliance of some sort. Not saying that they really have to agree, but maybe at least try one day. Google is the only company out there making Microsoft's run for it a race. Microsoft is doing everything they can to play their cards right, because to them in some areas it could almost mean survival. It a lot of ways it is strategy. IMO mobile is the one thing they could afford as a casualty for the time being, but even though it seems like an inevitable outcome on the horizon nothing is a complete loss yet. I will add to like mentioned above in other words, just keep driving till the wheels fall off. You never know how far you or it will actually go unless you do it.

    EDIT: Have you guys read any articles yet on Windows Server on ARM? :)
    Yeah I think a lot of MS's moves are fairly sophisticated, future oriented, and not always easy for the consumer to understand.

    Making a platform independent OS for example - its a slow and complicated project. Its sort of herculean ambitious. And no one else is doing it. Even if they did, they'd be way behind already. But the pay off for that will be pretty clear - eventually all windows 10 devices, whether they be phones, tablets, PCs, hybrids wearables, consoles, cloudbooks - will all run UWP, and UWA via the windows store.

    That's much more valuable than market dominance in one area, because it a) leverages market dominance in any area you have it, against the ones you don't and b) allows for complete and total device intergration between disperate devices without complication. It's a play that could actually make MS the dominant OS of the future.

    People can't really see what that is, because they have only just started on it. Consumers will need to see cshell running on project scorpio, tablets, desktops and mobiles before they'll really get it - oh, this is the same OS on everything, just with a different UI - All this stuff works together seemlessly and runs the same software - that's revolutionary.

    Because all these things are such big tasks, MS announces it, peoples eyes glaze over and they don't really get it. But fortunately we get some real tangible output soon, windows on arm, windows cloud, the beginings of cshell, and maybe next year project scorpio.

    Yeah, I absolutely agree I don't think anyone will have a hope of catching up. Google has chromeOS, but lets be honest, its not replacing windows 10 any time soon. Apple might have had a shot, had they started on this 3-4 years ago.

    BTW, I've seen that snapdragon made a server chip, and know that MS will make a arm based server OS - but with my limited imagination I'm not really seeing the benefits outright. I suppose large core numbers would be great for handling multiple user/system queries, so there's one. Low power consumption, another. Perhaps there's some function that LTE could add?
    nate0 and Lukas Neoproud like this.
    04-23-2017 11:10 PM
  7. nate0's Avatar
    BTW, I've seen that snapdragon made a server chip, and know that MS will make a arm based server OS - but with my limited imagination I'm not really seeing the benefits outright. I suppose large core numbers would be great for handling multiple user/system queries, so there's one. Low power consumption, another. Perhaps there's some function that LTE could add?
    My thinking exactly on your post whole post...
    As far as server ARM, this is my thought on it. Modularity. I have seen it proposed many years ago, but thought nothing of it. Server's are obviously multiple CPU driven machines, and you cannot find one today that is single. So I am banking on modularity for that. Kind of like Grid compute engines but on a much smaller scale, still scalable, and also yes tons of energy and space saved, the wet cell can now become the newer Tesla cells so on and so forth...LTE maybe, the possibilities become endless. Why do you think Intel is investing a ton in 7nm?
    04-24-2017 06:45 AM
  8. Drael646464's Avatar
    My thinking exactly on your post whole post...
    As far as server ARM, this is my thought on it. Modularity. I have seen it proposed many years ago, but thought nothing of it. Server's are obviously multiple CPU driven machines, and you cannot find one today that is single. So I am banking on modularity for that. Kind of like Grid compute engines but on a much smaller scale, still scalable, and also yes tons of energy and space saved, the wet cell can now become the newer Tesla cells so on and so forth...LTE maybe, the possibilities become endless. Why do you think Intel is investing a ton in 7nm?
    Well we are always going to need more powerful and peripheral connected cpus, just like we now need low power ones. Interestingly so far, only IBM AFAIK are working on massively parallel - something that will surely come into play with machine learning seeing that is how the brain works. Although cells of multi-core would be a tad closer. Computings getting more diverse as time goes on, that'll probably just increase. Right now low power is the thing, and it certainly will be for awhile. It's also low margin though, people pay premium for high power.

    I'd like to see liquid cooling and higher power cpus/dedicated GPUs come to tablets. But with windows on arm round the corner, and LTE pretty much becoming standard, that doesn't seem likely. But that's somewhere else intel could put its efforts - in the crossroads. Bring some mobile connectivity standard, and thunderbolt too, to the larger portable devices. Pack on some graphics power. Battery tech is getting better anyway. As is software power conservation.

    And of course, intel has VR. Two eyes, at high res, and low latency, pushing 90 fps etc, that's intels ballpark.

    Myself, I wanna see a tablet I can dock and use as a decently powerful desktop(Eventually one I can fold up, and put in my pocket 4 in 1 :P) . I doubt ARM is going to be able to bring that, you need that single process grunt. And being smartphone focused they put network connectivity over periperpheral bandwidth unlike intel, such that would make a true docking eGPU/video/multi-monitor/harddrive work.
    Lukas Neoproud likes this.
    04-24-2017 07:53 AM
  9. nate0's Avatar
    ARM might though. Fanless, low power, and small form factor. Anyone who can build smaller or at 7nm.

    Unless you can get a screen only device connected to the cloud for computing...That is what I imagine.
    04-24-2017 08:20 AM
  10. Drael646464's Avatar
    ARM might though. Fanless, low power, and small form factor. Anyone who can build smaller or at 7nm.

    Unless you can get a screen only device connected to the cloud for computing...That is what I imagine.
    That's some high speed wifi and internet!

    With say a tablet, you want there to touch something, and have it react. So your touch would go all the way to the server, get calculated, and then sent back before it responds. You need gamer level low latency here. Imperceivable.

    Probably the only way to do that is FTL, like quantum entanglement. Wired, it might be possible, via the speed of light. Perhaps if you used a combination of li-fi, and really high speed fibre, but it would have more unreliable connectivity than regular wifi, and lifi needs line of sight.

    It's not even really a matter of bandwidth. 5G might be enough for some basic video streaming. wifi can do basic streaming too. Although compression isn't ideal. To send something to a server, calculate it, and send it back, before you have time to perceptible notice the difference.... well that's pretty serious.

    On the other hand if it were a query where an acceptable delay were allowed, like an AI query - then it wouid make a lot of sense to centralise that on hardware that is specialised to handle it.

    I could imagine a combination - where straight forward computer stuff happens on your mobile device, and true intelligence is server/cloud based. And I could certainly imagine a dumb terminal screen pinging off a more powerful PC inside ones office or home, the range making the latency less of an issue.

    You'd still want some power inside the device itself though, for when it falls off network. Otherwise it just becomes a slab.
    04-24-2017 08:47 AM
  11. MrockNroll's Avatar
    are you on T-Mobile? we had to change a blocked setting on our T-Mobile account for that to work.
    04-24-2017 08:58 AM
  12. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Its a long list with no way to be sure which combination is killing it. Not in any order:

    1. Lack of apps - I don't use a lot of apps and no social media apps but even I would dearly love some apps not available on WM.

    2. A LOT of people are sheep and buy based on what they see their friends or celebrities use.

    3. Many people need to interact with friends, etc using apps not on WM.

    4. Almost total lack of marketing.

    5. Without marketing, few people take the time to learn the benefits on their own.

    6. In the US a lot of people buy phones from their carriers and those carriers offer few or no WM phones.

    7. etc.
    I didn't know we used the "sheep" pejorative here too! Had to check the url.

    I love WP, but that lack of ecosystem is what I think is the biggest barrier to mass adoption... much like BB10.
    libra89 likes this.
    04-24-2017 09:02 AM
  13. Drael646464's Avatar
    I didn't know we used the "sheep" pejorative here too! Had to check the url.

    I love WP, but that lack of ecosystem is what I think is the biggest barrier to mass adoption... much like BB10.
    BB10's ecosystem is to the Windows store, what the Windows store is to the Google play store, numerically speaking, its 1/3 of the size.

    Amazon tablets do pretty well despite having less apps than Windows 10 mobile. Probably windows 10 mobile could have done a lot better if it was pitched budget like amazon tablets. apps aside. Chromebook is a similar story actually. They didn't always have android app support. Yet they still sold with under 10,000 apps in their store.

    bb, like windows always tried to sell elite phones like Samsung and Apple, pitched to enterprise consumers. Which isn't entirely silly, they have a software edge there, and with certain niches (windows). But its now the budget end of android that gets a lot of growth love, even when quite bereft of apps, and google services-less.

    Always why windows cloud and windows on arm is pretty smart, beyond the long term vision of convergence and one core. MS needs to encourage affordable everyday products, not just elite high performance ones as much as possible.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-24-2017 at 09:25 AM.
    Lukas Neoproud likes this.
    04-24-2017 09:14 AM
  14. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    I didn't know we used the "sheep" pejorative here too! Had to check the url.
    Sorry, maybe I should have said Lemmings. I forget that some readers have an illogical negative opinion of sheep despite their many good qualities, including herd instincts which is a very positive attribute the enhances their safety and frees mental capacity for other pursuits.

    Then again, some readers may harbor illogical prejudices against Lemmings.

    Maybe we should ban analogies because the "glass is half empty" crowd could jump to wrong conclusions.

    Whoops, did it again. ;)
    fatclue_98 and aximtreo like this.
    04-24-2017 09:58 AM
  15. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Sorry, maybe I should have said Lemmings. I forget that some readers have an illogical negative opinion of sheep despite their many good qualities, including herd instincts which is a very positive attribute the enhances their safety and frees mental capacity for other pursuits.

    Then again, some readers may harbor illogical prejudices against Lemmings.

    Maybe we should ban analogies because the "glass is half empty" crowd could jump to wrong conclusions.

    Whoops, did it again. ;)
    Most folks who use bovine descriptors for people who select consumer merchandise that differs from their own don't claim it is positive, so in that, you are unique.

    But yes, lemmings sounds a bit less, uh, glass-full.

    All Microsoft has to do is get a bigger herd of delightfully meek, woolly customers.
    04-24-2017 10:18 AM
  16. envio's Avatar
    Such a simple question from the OP which has such a complex answer but I think it comes down to the timeline of events.

    Microsoft was late to the re-birth of the smartphone. The iPhone launched in 2007 and the Android roughly 1 year later. The Windows Phone reboot was in 2010 and by then Microsoft were on the back foot playing catch-up despite having a new, compelling and innovative offering. They made several mis-steps including:

    a) No upgrade path from WM6.5 and no direct migration path to WP7.0 (remember the no USB sync debacle?)
    b) Non-generic hardware requirements (made it harder for traditional Android OEMs to invest / make WP devices)
    c) Poor carrier relationships leading to locked-in exclusives to try and gain traction, not open to a wider audiences from day 0
    d) (c) Also resulted in painfully small or non-visibility of WP devices, no product training and little carrier incentives to promote/sell WP devices
    e) Sporadic marketing, odd advert messaging
    f) very slow execution of new features to bring up to the standard that iPhone/Android were offering at the time (made worse by carrier blocking of updates)
    g) Slow execution of international services e.g. Cortana was in beta forever, still only in a select number of markets
    h) Subsequent reboot from WP7.5-WP8.0 didn't help galvanize support with zero device upgrades. Then from WP8.1-WP10 which wasn't advertised well, was hard to find without prior knowledge. And now what's left of the WP community has been given another blow with update to W10 CU which has cut off even more devices.
    i) Then there's the app gap. Initially hard to get tier 1 apps created for WP. Even harder to get those more local but really important apps like banking. UWP (the final app reboot) brought all the coding into 1 family and Microsoft eventually tried to woo devs with direct conversion tools which worked for a few big players like King.com but the efforts have not paid off overall.

    Haven't even dived into the Nokia angle and many other aspects surrounding the shifting market.
    paschott and jasqid like this.
    04-24-2017 10:22 AM
  17. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    BB10's ecosystem is to the Windows store, what the Windows store is to the Google play store, numerically speaking, its 1/3 of the size.

    Amazon tablets do pretty well despite having less apps than Windows 10 mobile. Probably windows 10 mobile could have done a lot better if it was pitched budget like amazon tablets. apps aside. Chromebook is a similar story actually. They didn't always have android app support. Yet they still sold with under 10,000 apps in their store.

    bb, like windows always tried to sell elite phones like Samsung and Apple, pitched to enterprise consumers. Which isn't entirely silly, they have a software edge there, and with certain niches (windows). But its now the budget end of android that gets a lot of growth love, even when quite bereft of apps, and google services-less.

    Always why windows cloud and windows on arm is pretty smart, beyond the long term vision of convergence and one core. MS needs to encourage affordable everyday products, not just elite high performance ones as much as possible.
    Fair points.

    I never really thought of the pricing perspective, but as you note, it has seemingly worked for Amazon. Maybe a wider selection of devices at different price points would work for MSFT as well.

    A cheaper Surface, for instance, would probably sell like hotcakes and compete very favorably with chromebooks.

    On the other hand, there is a risk attached to fighting for the bottom with regards to pricing, as several Android OEMs can attest to.

    I've always thought that MSFT's built-in ecosystem is a latent strength. I don't know that MSFT has done the best job of tying it all together. I know my cheapie Windows tab was the best mobile device I've picked up in quite some time.
    Drael646464 likes this.
    04-24-2017 10:25 AM
  18. Drael646464's Avatar
    UWP (the final app reboot) brought all the coding into 1 family and Microsoft eventually tried to woo devs with direct conversion tools which worked for a few big players like King.com but the efforts have not paid off overall.
    Haven't even dived into the Nokia angle and many other aspects surrounding the shifting market.
    Do you think UWP is for mobile devices? Like a market strategy for windows 10 mobile? And do you also think that what MS is doing with UWP and UWA has even really started properly?
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    04-24-2017 10:32 AM
  19. Drael646464's Avatar
    Fair points.

    I never really thought of the pricing perspective, but as you note, it has seemingly worked for Amazon. Maybe a wider selection of devices at different price points would work for MSFT as well.

    A cheaper Surface, for instance, would probably sell like hotcakes and compete very favorably with chromebooks.

    On the other hand, there is a risk attached to fighting for the bottom with regards to pricing, as several Android OEMs can attest to.

    I've always thought that MSFT's built-in ecosystem is a latent strength. I don't know that MSFT has done the best job of tying it all together. I know my cheapie Windows tab was the best mobile device I've picked up in quite some time.
    I'm confident that's exactly what windows on arm, and windows cloud is about, at least in some major portion. I'm also quite suspicious that's why we get rumours of the next surface being arm powered too - I think they'll make a pro, and some other cheaper version.

    For OEMs its tricky fighting at the bottom with slim margins. Its a bit like a fighting school of fish. But MS isn't a hardware company. They sell software and software as a service. Bit like google doesn't care what their hardware makers go through - all they need is those google search ads. If cheaper windows devices mean more office subs, more app purchases, more one drive, more licenses paid - its good for MS.

    So long as they also keep making quality at the top, they maintain the image of quality, like Samsung does with phones.

    Basically we kind of need a 'Huawei/oppo" of windows tablets and laptops. There are a few companies that could be good contenders - cube, teclast, chuwi in particular.

    I've used some awesome cheap windows tablets - ones with nice hybrid design, good screens, decent fluid experience, even active stylus support.

    Currently the only two areas in tablets experience growth are windows (5% marketshare currently) and budget devices. Both apple and Samsung have had 3-4 years of lost marketshare. Putting windows in both those catergories I think is a real winner for mindshare, profits and the platform. And for chromebooks versus windows cloud, I think windows has a good edge with its touch support, stylus support, hybrid factors and the upgradaeabilty.

    Well see how it rolls, but I am expecting the moves made this year in this direction will have direct marketshare payoffs in larger screened mobile devices. Probably even kill the chromebook eventually, and if it can capture a decent tablet market share it'll gain real momentum in general.

    Between that and project scorpio, next year will probably be the year where we begin to see UWP, UWA, cshell, one core, all starting to come together as a market strategy.
    04-24-2017 10:43 AM
  20. nate0's Avatar
    Probably the only way to do that is FTL, like quantum entanglement.
    Now you are on the right track...but lets wait 5 yrs more or less :)
    04-24-2017 10:53 AM
  21. Sedp23's Avatar
    There's literally no developer support. Very minimal support. We've got a facebook app from 2014 that hasn't been updated in 6 months and that's one of the biggest apps on any phone. The OS imo is great its just the lack of apps and hardware at this phone that are killing it

    Sent from Idol 4s
    HoosierDaddy likes this.
    04-24-2017 11:12 AM
  22. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    Most folks who use bovine descriptors for people who select consumer merchandise don't claim it is positive, so in that, you are unique.
    No need to insult cows now. Not to mention the Ovines, many of which take it as the greatest insult to be called a cow. Sheep have very low opinions of Bovines, perhaps rightly so. I mean sheep correctly predicted the future demand for outer garments and evolved in a way to survive their creation. Not to mention making sure they remained less tasty. ;)
    boydtoven and aximtreo like this.
    04-24-2017 11:20 AM
  23. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    There's literally no developer support. Very minimal support. We've got a facebook app from 2014 that hasn't been updated in 6 months and that's one of the biggest apps on any phone. The OS imo is great its just the lack of apps and hardware at this phone that are killing it

    Sent from Idol 4s
    It's a tough problem. App support would help, but developers got to eat too.

    Hopefully, MSFT is pivoting correctly. I think consumers deserve as many mobile platforms as possible.
    04-24-2017 11:20 AM
  24. Drael646464's Avatar
    Now you are on the right track...but lets wait 5 yrs more or less :)
    I'll be looking forward to folding screens and full voice control about the time your looking forward to quantum FTL networking then :P

    Not that I would mind!
    nate0 likes this.
    04-24-2017 11:23 AM
  25. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    I love WP, but that lack of ecosystem is what I think is the biggest barrier to mass adoption... much like BB10.
    W10/W10M has a good ecosystem. The way I understand the term it's about integration of different parts, from email client to cloud storage to messaging to whatever. The ability to get notifications that would normally go on your phone only onto your desktop is clearly an ecosystem feature. Do you get the same level of integration on Google as easily?
    TgeekB likes this.
    04-24-2017 11:30 AM
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