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07-17-2017 11:05 AM
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  1. PeterFnet's Avatar
    Win10 Mobile could be saved, but it would take some major courage by a number of people to make the changes required:

    1) Fire Nadella right now. Either that, or move him over to the Cloud play area and leave him there. He has no vision for Mobile, nor the desire to make it work from everything I have read he has written and from hearing his speeches. He has no "fire in the belly" to make it a viable mobile OS. He is just chasing the quarterly balance sheet for an easy paycheck.

    2) Stop waiting for app developers in the hopes they will make apps for Win Mobile. Either make the app in house, and have a dev team to fully support it, i.e. MS Office, or else simply buy the app maker outright.

    If MS wants to honestly compete in the mobile environment, buy up Snap Chat, Instagram, and a few of the other popular apps if they don't want to support the OS with their own apps. Make it worth their while to make apps for Win Mobile. Apple is willing to, and MS could clean Apple's clock if they actually tried.

    As far as apps like banking apps, build a secure UWP app in-house, then go to the bank and offer it for either free, or at a minimal license fee, while providing complete support so the bank doesn't have to worry about supporting it. Make it profitable for both parties.

    3) Get out and actually ADVERTISE Win Mobile!! Make direct comparison adds to Apple and Android. Stop waiting and hoping for the Internet blog world, (who already have written you off), to give you decent reviews. Make your own buzz. Just make dang sure that you have all your ducks in a row and the OS and apps can compete on a one on one basis.

    The above actions would require actual guts to execute, and I just don't see the with the current MS management.

    I agree with everything you said except making the apps in-house. That would set a terrible precedent and would discourage others from investing in development when others are getting it for free.

    Instead, they need to drive home, and further push the universal apps. Don't make apps for mobile. Make them for Windows 10 and all devices will get them. Microsoft just needs to stop resetting every few years! Anyone that jumped on the short-lived Windows Mobile 6.5 store had to start over with Windoes Phone 7. 8 and 8.1 offered some backwards compatibility, but those mobile apps could not be ran on desktop unless they were redeveloped. And with many Windows Phone 8.1 users being left without an upgrade to Windows 10, they're on an even more dead platform. It's depressing
    04-25-2017 01:07 PM
  2. sumton's Avatar
    1- Microsoft 2-Developers 3- users 4-OEM's
    04-25-2017 01:10 PM
  3. tonyk79's Avatar
    I had lumia 920, 1020 and 950 and decided to leave about 9 months after getting the 950 at launch. The OS was good, hardware good, cameras have been the best in each generation they launched, however the app gap just became too big and it's only getting bigger.

    At this point I don't see how MS can get back into the consumer race for mobile, they are just too far behind Android & Apple iOS apps.

    If they launch a surface phone, I would launch it running with a windows 10 OS and the ability to run a Hypervisor with Android or something similar that allows it to run android in the same vein as the XB1 runs Xbox 360 games. App problem solved.
    04-25-2017 01:25 PM
  4. rdubmu's Avatar
    Congrats on getting the best Windows phone available which came out in 2015, that's a big problem.
    04-25-2017 01:36 PM
  5. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    I agree with everything you said except making the apps in-house. That would set a terrible precedent and would discourage others from investing in development when others are getting it for free.
    Yes. And I strongly suspect that MS has done that in the past, specifically with banking apps. It just didn't make sense when banks phased out working WP app at the same time their iOS/Android app got updates. But it would make sense if MS people had come in and built the WP app for free. It stopped being free when they had to make even the smallest update to match their "real" apps.

    Carrots can be good, but not those carrots. Maybe instead give companies that publish and maintain a WP/WM app an MS credit each year they keep the app and keep it comparable to the other platforms. Giving them a free app with no incentive to maintain it until it would make business sense for them to choose to won't work. In fact, having apps come and go as with some banks can be worse for the platform than never having an app. People hate having non-necessities taken away more than they hate never having them.
    04-25-2017 01:49 PM
  6. TheMelonOfWater's Avatar
    What two things happened in 2007?
    1. Microsoft released Windows Vista, a globally hated OS, and
    2. Apple released the iPhone, a reinvented phone that was a huge success.

    Long story short: People just hate Windows.
    he_shark likes this.
    04-25-2017 01:51 PM
  7. AtlTelcoGuy's Avatar
    I'm a former 920 (still my fave), 1020 (exceptional camera, mediocre handset), then Google Nexus 6 (not going back to carrier updates), and now Alcatel Idol 4S (w/Win10 - gorgeous handset & sound, crap performance & camera).

    I can safely say that MS took a major step backwards with 10. The app gap is severe and a show stopper. Apps improve the customer experience and MS could have addressed that in several different ways but chose not to.

    After having a small toe hold in the market space they've elected to write us off. That is apparent from everything they've done. There is no way for them to recover in this market space. As much as I detest the ecosystem, I've already decided to move to IOS for my next device. It works and the company supports it along with direct updates. I still believe that Windows Mobile was the superior OS but MS just can't help themselves...
    04-25-2017 02:27 PM
  8. technogeek019's Avatar
    On the other hand I have switched from my Lumia 620 which was my faithful companion for the last 4 years to a Huawei Honor 6x. Upon having my 2nd dose of the android os, I am extremely surprised that Windows Phone had lasted so long. Lemme provide some backstory to this, when I got my 620 in 2013, I became a windows phone evangelist as android phones at the same price were clunky, unreliable and frankly terrible phones. Windows phones had the smoothness and efficiency which were comparative to ios at the time. Windows phones (Lumias in particular) had several unique selling points at the time which I would often use to recommend the phones: 1) "True" offline navigation (courtesy of here maps/drive), 2) Nokia Mixradio/Music which curates offline playlists based on your favorite artists (which has helped me find new songs time again), 3) Stability and Efficiency of the OS, 4) Promise of updates, 5) Nokia's hardware prowess, 6) How terrible android phones were at the time (I.E the numerous samsung galaxy devices). I still fondly remember those days scouring through the nokia update pages which major updates like amber,denim, etc were released. However when microsoft bought out nokia, things started taking a turn for the worse: 1) Here Division was sold (Here mapping service no longer available for Win10 phones, despite being available for android and ios as the HereWeGo app), 2) The takeover of Mixradio by LINE and its eventual shutdown, 3) Windows 8.1/10 lagginess (All the loading screens) and lack of optimizations (especially for the snapdragon s4/512mb ram devices), 4) Popular windows phones like the Lumia 520 not being able to update to 10 (which i believe was the correct decision as Win10 was/is extremely buggy), 5) Nokia's phone division being "neutered" sue to the mass dismissals and Microsoft pursuing the samsung strategy by releasing too many variants and fragmenting the lineup (530,535,540,630,635,640,650....), 6) The increase in the quality of android phones since the Motorola G series as Chinese compaines like Xiaomi, Huwaei releasing devices that offer a good user experience while remaining wallet friendly. It is important to understand that while windows phones have been stagnant, android phones have been getting better: Improved specs of android phones + A much more efficient android os + Improved value of android phones compared to their windows phone counterparts have contributed to the growing decline in windows phone users as more people realize that all the Microsoft services that they are used to on windows phone are still available in different platforms as Microsoft supports them hence it may as well be better to switch and enjoy the greater dearth of apps and services. Whatever I have written above pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole thing about the decline of windows phone. I am glad that I got a windows phone those 4 years ago however I am also glad that I have switched to android as it has enhanced my smartphone experience, While I don't really miss windows phone, I do hope one day windows phone can rise from the ashes and become a more compelling alternative than it once was.
    he_shark likes this.
    04-25-2017 03:10 PM
  9. TechAbstract's Avatar
    It's simple reason for failure really. Windows mobile does not have that freedom for OEMs as Android. Why bother with such a locked down OS when they can use Android.
    04-25-2017 03:16 PM
  10. technogeek019's Avatar
    I'm Glad you have the courage to make the switch!
    You're one of very small group of people who see things from their own perspective, experience, and doesn't make decisions according to people's opinions! (You're adventurous)!!!

    Even if W10M got all the features + the apps it lacks, without a proper advertising plan, the userbase won't grow that much.

    With all due respect, I do believe that android/ios offer a better user experience hence this is why its adopted more readily than windows phone, not everyone wants to take a chance with an os that cannot support their needs (snapchat??). However you are right regarding advertising.
    rdubmu likes this.
    04-25-2017 03:29 PM
  11. labsii's Avatar
    I would say it is about those factors:
    • The smartphone market doesn't grow anymore so there isn't much hope that things can be changed
    • To even try to compete with Samsung and Apple you need to match their multi billion marketing and distribution budgets
    • The smartphone market is extremely tough now - Apple earns 90-100% profits. If you take also previous points, then you don't stay in such a market unless it is very strategically important for you. Because staying means loosing a lot of money for granted and who can tell whether there will be any benefits ever. So you must have huge indirect benefits in other business parts to at least somewhat cover those losses.
    • Microsoft's current management is more focused on short term results than before
    • Many of Microsoft's investors are also and Google and Apple investors and they don't want those companies to compete as they surely get less money that way
    04-25-2017 03:48 PM
  12. noelito's Avatar
    the problem is microsoft continued absolute silence on the matter. in order to be on par with apple and google they need a mobile phone strategy, and marketshare % shouldn't be a reason to withdraw, you had an active loyal fanbase and fantastic smart phone operating system and then just threw it all in the trash in 2014 2015? microsoft has to address their mobile plan or lack of plan at build?
    04-25-2017 04:11 PM
  13. sdreamer's Avatar
    Support basically. When Microsoft doesn't even back it's own platform first, making a Windows first philosophy, then it signals to the developers who were keeping the platform afloat, "hey we don't even like it ourselves" type of deal. It's an awesome platform, tons of potential, etc (I friggin miss driving mode so much, why couldn't they make that NFC enabled), but you have Microsoft updating their apps everyone first but there, so why should third party developers care. When Nokia was still around, they're support is what made the platform. All those extra apps you could only get on Nokia devices were defining; Here Maps, Nokia Mix Radio, City Lens (first real decent AR attempt imo, but poorly supported), and so on. Microsoft didn't have to do much then because Nokia did it all, so when they folded in, Microsoft just did what Microsoft does.
    04-25-2017 04:37 PM
  14. Vivien R's Avatar
    It's simple. Despite, finally the Windows 10 Mobile seems to matured, and its better than before, yet apps are gone. Not mentioned tons of great feature got removed on the way. The countless OS reset, non existent advertising... Wonder?
    04-25-2017 04:38 PM
  15. Cosmin Petrenciuc's Avatar
    Welcome to the small world of Windows Phone fans and I hope you will enjoy using your Windows 10 Mobile smartphone. I am also a proud owner of a Lumia 950 XL. I have a long history of using Windows powered smartphones beginning with HTC Touch Diamond (Windows Mobile 6.5), then a HTC Radar (Windows Phone 7.8), then a Nokia Lumia 1020 (Windows Phone 8.1) and now Microsoft Lumia 950 XL. Here are what I believe to be the reasons why the Microsoft presence in the smartphone world is so limited now:
    1. Microsoft never promoted aggressively its mobile OS with the carriers (US and foreign ones). I do not know if the following statement is true, but I suspect Microsoft never truly incentivized carriers to sell devices powered by its operating systems. I don't know if Microsoft ever provided to carriers some brochures to present how their OS should be presented to customers. In my country, Romania, sever sales representatives of my carrier looked at me very strangely when I insisted that I want to buy a Nokia Lumia 1020, or Lumia 950 XL. The were always eager to present me the wonderful Android or the gorgeous IOS, but Windows Phone?... If you insist, yes you can buy one, but we can't really say too much about it. There was a time when my carrier made a promotional offer. If you bought a Lumia 920 with a specific contract plan you would get for free one mobile antivirus solution and 10 GB if cloud storage. Both the antivirus and the cloud storage were available only from Android apps. It was hilarious.
    2. Although Microsoft has searched for the right means to attract more developers to UWP platform I don't think they succeeded in their search. And at some point along the way, I think they just renounced to try to convince developers to build UWP applications. Maybe at build 2017 they will try to persuade again the developers to come to UWP platform but I wonder if that wouldn't be a little too late.
    3. Microsoft had and probably has many good ideas. But either it takes them too much time to put them into practice, or after the first iteration they abandon the idea.
    4. They rebooted their mobile OS too many times. That generated frustration for the early adopters and fans, and made the average consumer perceive Microsoft OS as something for ever unstable, never well thought, being always under construction.
    5. Lack of new hardware and extremely few OEMs willing to produce smartphones powered by Windows 10 Mobile. I know that some years ago, Microsoft was giving its mobile OS for free to OEMs that wanted to produce smartphones with Windows Phone as their OS. But that didn't attracted many, Back then it was either Nokia who was producing I think more than 90% of the Windows Phone devices or HTC with 2 devices and Samsung with one device I think. Then Microsoft bought Nokia for its patents and licenses and after 1 or 2 years at most terminated the Lumia line. Right now only HTC and Alcatel produce Windows 10 Mobile smartphones (2 devices) and those aren't available world-wide.
    04-25-2017 04:41 PM
  16. Akira X's Avatar
    Microsoft keeps removing features. I can no longer sync my edge favorites on my 950xl with my work desktop due to the feature being removed in the creators update. So now that i am back on Android, i have no choice but to migrate over to chrome on my desktop and syncing to and from my phone now works like windows 10 once did.
    04-25-2017 04:59 PM
  17. Akira X's Avatar
    I was in my local MS store yesterday, they have sold 5 galaxy s8's since last friday. Microsoft has little interest in the mobile phone hardware space. Theres a small chance the 950xl you just bought could develop a hardware issue(like my day one 950xl) and when you go to get it replaced, there are none left. Like my band 2..
    04-25-2017 05:08 PM
  18. bleached's Avatar
    I'm a former 920 (still my fave), 1020 (exceptional camera, mediocre handset), then Google Nexus 6 (not going back to carrier updates), and now Alcatel Idol 4S (w/Win10 - gorgeous handset & sound, crap performance & camera).

    I can safely say that MS took a major step backwards with 10. The app gap is severe and a show stopper. Apps improve the customer experience and MS could have addressed that in several different ways but chose not to.

    After having a small toe hold in the market space they've elected to write us off. That is apparent from everything they've done. There is no way for them to recover in this market space. As much as I detest the ecosystem, I've already decided to move to IOS for my next device. It works and the company supports it along with direct updates. I still believe that Windows Mobile was the superior OS but MS just can't help themselves...
    The OS is no where near superior. If that was true, they would have gained traction in 2011 with Windows Phone 7 and grew it to this day. It never gained any traction, ever. There was so much wrong with the platform that fans want to overlook:

    1. Heavily locked down. I think this was the biggest issue. Manufacturers could not modify the software on their devices. Getting manufacturers excited about the phone they are selling is the most important thing for Microsoft. An excited manufacturer does the marketing and really pushes the devices. There is no reason for a manufacture to be excited about a Windows phone. Why would Samsung be as excited about the Focus as they were with the Galaxy S3?

    2. Manufacturers had to pay for it. Android was free. Enough said.

    3. Heavy handed hardware restrictions. Again, manufacturers aren't as excited about using old technology. Adds more reasons for them to not be excited as in #1 .

    4. Poor/missing APIs. Apps for WP7 were very limited in their functionality. Doesn't excite developers. Again, an excitement issue.

    5. Polarizing UI. Either you love it or you hate it and there is nothing you can do about it. Seems more people didn't like it of sales are any indication. I think it looks too busy and complicated on the shelf, even though it isn't complicated at all. All the flipping tiles and squares give a poor first impression. Android and iOS are very simple looking at first glance.

    6. Carrier hostile. One of the big selling points was the lack of bloatware and the ability to delete any app. Way to get carriers on your side.

    7. Functionally deficient. Windows Phones didn't have all the dumb features of the Galaxy S3 and other flagships. This severely impacted the ability to market the platform.

    I think these are the biggest issues. You need these things fixed before you can even start to think about getting users and then apps will come naturally. Microsoft needed to hit a home run with WP7. They didn't.
    04-25-2017 05:47 PM
  19. ChrisFricke's Avatar
    Why has Windows mobile languished? People have already given great reasons - same reasons I gave up on it more than three years ago (for both personal and Enterprise). The main reason: because Microsoft let it. Exactly the same as Apple letting the Mac Pro languish. They just didn't care enough to put effort into making it better than it is. Not really. Look at their efforts in any other segment with any other line of products and you see evolution, innovation, change... not always successful mind you but you see the progression.

    Microsoft decided to let mobile languish. They even had the possibility of closing the app gap completely by running Android code and killed it. Even without that if Microsoft had tried... at all... like they do in other areas they'd be at something more than 1%. Maybe 5%. Who knows... Bottom line, I think, is that they crunched the numbers and realized that the limited payoff potential wasn't worth the risk. And personally - I think they made the right call. In fact I think they're making a mistake keeping any products in the market at all. Better to exit completely and re-enter a few years later as a "paradigm shift" (yay marketing).
    04-25-2017 07:39 PM
  20. Mark Richey's Avatar
    I agree it is complex, but I have a long history with Windows Phones and Windows on Phone. I came from Pocket PC to a Toshiba Windows Mobile with slide out keyboard. It was sweet, but I had problems with Toshiba and the carrier supporting. I ended up on iPhone 3Gs, and hated almost everything about it once the shine was off the Apple.

    Fast forward, when Windows Phone 7 was introduced, the great little Fujitsu was not on my carrier. I went to a Windows Phone event, only to find it was really a Fujitsu event and was told, "Yes, we'd like to be on other carriers but we really want it to go overseas." So I bought and unlocked HTC Titan, then a flagship, and slipped my Apple black SIM into it and got all but MMS. I was a happy camper. Then HTC failed to follow through on the fabled Zenith and I moved to the Lumia 920. Again, flagship, but I bought it as the prices were falling with the introduction of the 928 and the 1020.

    Loved it and while I had bemoaned the locked apps (nokia only for a time) I was happy with the Nokia support. Then, I popped for the 930, and finally the Microsoft 950. Out of the box, Windows 10 Mobile was horrible. The phone over heated, rebooted needlessly, battery was questionable.

    Here is what MS should a coulda done instead: 1) Released a true low end and mid-tier Lumia with Windows 10 Mobile around mid-2016. Forget the 950 and XL. While they are still top phones (the 820 chip is still being released in Android models into 2017) they obviously disappointed the top users.

    My point is, a flagship now would make sense. The latest builds of Windows 10 Mobile run smooth and cool on my 950. The OS is still the best OS out there. I hated the closed Apple structure, and while I am now on an Android as my daily driver, I miss my live tiles, fantastic folders and smooth running. It is hard to turn back from the Google (maps & calendar) eco that is still superior, but Cortana, office and Outlook still grace my Nexus. And I use the Arrow launcher - why can't MS do what that does for Windows Phone?

    So as much as I blamed carriers, OEM and devs of some apps, it is MS's half-in-half-out attitude that dooms so many products. Zune HD, Band 2, I suspect HoloLens. Had they waited to release the 950ish phone and really produced a $700 flagship until Windows 10 Mobile was out of the larval stage, they would not be in the position they are in today. I am in Japan so the abandonment means nothing here. I can't even get and X-Box s off the shelf here. But in many countries where Microsoft/Nokia had respectable double-digit market share, they should be pissed as hell.
    04-25-2017 07:52 PM
  21. cyan1two's Avatar
    You are very correct, we all love WP, unfortunately the company that brought us the best experience do not seem to know how good their products are. They started well but they allowed late start to the game and the distance between them and the other two front runner hinder them fro running at their own pace. MS should understand that by continually improving the W10M and not leaving/abandoning the sector would have increased their share of the market. They need to know that the game plan should not be for them to come to par with the leading competition within two or three year but over time things would have improved greatly. The other thing which makes their work much harder is the fact that, they always drop off when the going gets tougher. This always puts them in a very bad books with the consumers they disappoint who are not likely to come back when MS resumes their foray into Phone business.
    04-25-2017 08:14 PM
  22. Mike Semblance's Avatar
    950 XL here , on Continuum. Edge, Onedrive, Office 365, OneNote, Bank of America, Netflix, CCTV apps, ELM327, Teamviewer, Cricket unlimited over Nordvpn , Windows Central app. And Cortana is taking good care of me. She knows me well.

    Groove is free with Bing points.

    Windows phone isn't dead, and I'm saving up for Surface phone.
    If it turns out we all move to MicrosoftAndroid, that's what I'll buy. I'll do whatever Dona Sarkar tells me to.

    I have all the apps I need.

    Getting the Win10 Trekstor watch next! woohoo!
    Last edited by Mike Semblance; 04-25-2017 at 10:16 PM.
    04-25-2017 08:27 PM
  23. erotavlas's Avatar
    First I think its a mistake for Microsoft to pull out of the mobile space. They are shooting themselves in the foot if they let mobile languish until its dies. Because eventually mobile will continue to take more and more market share away from desktop PC. While competitors Android and iOS continue to improve their smartphone and tablet OS offerings to the point where they will make a universal OS like Microsoft is doing now, and that will make universal Windows on PC irrelevant. Because everyone will already be familiar with the smartphone OS of iOS and Android and easy to jump ship to whatever PC competitor they will offer.

    Second, biggest problem for me is I think Microsoft took way too long to develop Windows 10 universal platform. This is what Windows should have been back when Windows 8 was launched back when they had Nokia Lumia and the great Lumia 1020. While Windows 8 mobile was a fast and different OS it was just ugly and they forced developers to make ugly apps by imposing their metro style with minimalist interface. (and I'm not talking about the home screen with the innovative live tiles, I think those are amazing, I'm talking about everything else beyond that) If you remember the Windows 8 mobile settings screen, personally it was a disaster - no icons, no order to the list. It was just fugly and hard to find what you were looking for - oh and no search (I don't remember there being a search). Windows 10 mobile settings is a drastic improvement, but that is what it SHOULD have been at the beginning. Why they waited so long to make such minor UI improvements?. Its ridiculous how long it took them to get to the level of design for Windows 10 mobile.

    And now that they created Universal Windows platform which is also a dramatic improvement for developers, they also are too late for apps because the ecosystem is dying hardware wise so it won't attract developers like it could have many years ago. Developers need to make money and they can't do that is there are not enough users.

    New hardware isn't going to solve anything, not even a Surface Phone. I personally think Microsoft is just too late in the game and there is no turning back. Maybe there would be hope if they continued fighting, marketing, selling devices etc. But at the current rate they are investing in this platform, they are digging their grave.
    sd4f likes this.
    04-25-2017 08:34 PM
  24. sd4f's Avatar
    It really seems to me that MS just were never interested in trying to grow the platform in a typical fashion, they appear to have just thought all along that they'd release their products and everyone + dog would drop their iphones and androids en masse and take up MS' offerings.

    I can't understand the point of the reboots, they pushed their existing users under a bus, in an attempt to go for the big market, and failed each time, and it looks like they're going to try yet again, only difference this time is that they've put so little effort in the platform, in the hope that all their existing users just go away.

    Even the rumoured 'new category' mobile device. I honestly can't see it breaking through. The big problem MS has is that iphones and androids have displaced a lot of PC's in the consumer space, and additionally made inroads into commercial and enterprise spaces purely because of their ubiquity. So leveraging full windows into a mobile environment is kind of pointless, when a lot of features/apps are only available on phones and not the desktop, due to changing consumer habits. MS is back to square one with lack of apps and developer support, even with full windows.

    I'm also curious to see how DeX goes on the SGS8. If it makes some inroads, it will be a great demonstration of how, in spite of MS being first to market, and what not, it's pointless if you haven't got the right ingredients to make a meaningful dent in the market. In this case, the third party support is critical.
    04-25-2017 08:39 PM
  25. DaQuantumFro's Avatar
    Okay you want the obvious thing is lack of apps; be it local apps or the one hit wonder ones. Then there is the situation with zombie apps or apps that take a LONG time to be updated. Then there is the hardware situation; WP had more success in the low end that never translated to higher end model sales. Last has been perception of the brand and sometimes the fans. There is as others said the whole Microsoft not pushing the platform as hard as it could; either adding features to appeal to enterprises or fast following Android in terms of features. Basically it is a lot of reasons with no big one.
    04-25-2017 08:57 PM
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