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05-19-2017 11:42 PM
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  1. Drael646464's Avatar
    So, when will there be a massive 95% off sale of all windows phones at the Microsoft store? That's when I will go get a 950XL or the HP Elite X3!
    There was actually a recent uptick of windows mobile marketshare in mature markets. Being we have some prospects around the corner like windows cloud (a windows store locked cheap notebook/tablet), Cortana skills api, and composable shell - I think there's a fair possibility there will be no liquidation sale of those high spec devices.

    I mean if Cortana on the phone, can match or better alexa in smarthomes, that adds some appeal to the device. It windows cloud and on arm, bring in more UWP developers, it also does the same.

    None of that hardware is old enough yet for a "oh crap, this won't even sell for pennies" panic. They might start doing cheaper deals on the midtier stuff though.

    Globally, despite marketshare there are still enough sales I don't see a lot of discounting, and still see devices being promoted, coming with plans etc. Just because a multi-billion dollar company isn't making much money from it, doesn't mean its worth no ones time to sell them.

    Even on a place like aliexpress, and in the refurbished market there is not a lot of discounting. If the market called for it, it would be happening.
    04-30-2017 01:46 AM
  2. zocster's Avatar
    Yeah, sure...

    Samsung and Microsoft may be working on a Windows version of the Galaxy S8
    Samsung ATIV S8 in the works with Windows 10 Mobile?

    New Wileyfox Windows Mobile device is coming this year
    Wileyfox is making a Windows phone; says "Windows is much better for security" than Android

    And they are doing this because the platform is dead. C'mon guys, stop crying.
    If true that Samsung will be a beast!

    Sent from mTalk on a 950XL
    04-30-2017 02:03 AM
  3. kaktus1389's Avatar
    Daniel Rubino already said that any kind of Windows Phone until 2018 is very unlikely.


    Samsung and Microsoft may be working on a Windows version of the Galaxy S8Samsung ATIV S8 in the works with Windows 10 Mobile?
    This doesn't look exactly right, because W10M is a 32-bit system and only supports 3.5 GB of RAM, while it says 6GB RAM on the screenshot included in the article and there is no such thing released yet at "1704" version of Windows 10 / Windows 10 Mobile. While I really hope that this is true and this is on some kind of new software that we don't know about, it's hard to believe that this thing is actually real.
    04-30-2017 03:18 AM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    I have wondered this too. My thought was OEMs will run with the W10M, as long as Microsoft plans to support it. When W10 ARM hits Microsoft like they did before will introduce new HW with it to set the bar. And rinse and repeat...
    The answer to yours and fat8893's question is: "NO". W10oA will not replace W10M.

    MS is changing their approach to mobile. Windows on phones is being replaced by Windows on very portable cellular PCs. That part is true. Windows on phones is going the way of the Dodo Bird. People just shouldn't confuse that as being the same thing as "W10M is being replaced by W10oA". That's a completely different topic!

    W10oA is all about bringing Win32 to very portable mobile devices. W10M was about the exact opposite. It was about entirely removing Win32 from mobile devices! Those are mutually exclusive opposite goals. W10M and W10oA are built to do different things and solve different problems. One can replace the other about as well as a tractor can replace a bus.

    The UWP and W10M were designed from the ground up with touch input in mind. Dealing well with the limitations of power and resource constrained mobile devices is is also something the UWP and W10M are good at. W10 and Win32, and by extension W10oA, were not designed for any of that. The Win32 software packages that W10oA can run, neither know nor care about any of the limitations of mobile devices. Compared with mobile OSes like W10M, iOS or Android, W10oA will never be competitive in terms of battery life, security or ease of use. W10oA will require all the same maintenance efforts and computer skills that a Windows desktop does. That's why W10M isn't going anywhere. It still has a purpose that W10/W10oA can't fulfill.

    Even if we don't see another device with W10M released in the next two years, it will still be there. MS will continue to develop it. If the Windows Store ever gets to a point where UWP apps are feasible on their own, then W10M will return. Very possibly even alongside W10oA, although very likely under a different name and with a NEON UI update. It will still be W10M at heart though.
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-04-2017 at 04:50 AM.
    nate0, Mach_E, Axeelant and 3 others like this.
    04-30-2017 06:53 AM
  5. EliteMikes's Avatar
    Everyone couldn't update to that phone there was alot of Verizon and sprint customers that couldn't use the phone

    Sent from Idol 4s
    Not to mention the available phones were not that exciting. 2 unlocked 950xls was the worst purchase of 2015 for me
    CraigCole likes this.
    04-30-2017 07:00 AM
  6. Drael646464's Avatar
    The answer is pretty clear actually. It's "NO".

    MS is changing their approach to mobile. Windows on phones is being replaced by Windows on very portable cellular PCs. That part is true. Windows on phones is going the way of the Dodo Bird. People just shouldn't confuse that as being the same thing as "W10M is being replaced by W10oA". That's a completely different topic!

    W10oA all is about bringing Win32 to very portable mobile devices. W10M was about the exact opposite. It was about entirely removing Win32 from mobile devices! Those are mutually exclusive opposite goals. W10M and W10oA are built to do different things and solve different problems. One can replace the other about as well as a tractor can replace a bus.

    The UWP and W10M were designed from the ground up with touch input and power and resource limited devices in mind. W10 and Win32 were not. The Win32 software packages that Win10oA can run neither know nor care about any of the limitations of mobile devices. Compared with a mobile OS like W10M, iOS or Android, W10oA will never be competitive in terms of battery life, security or ease of use. W10oA will require all the same maintenance efforts and computer skills that a Windows desktop does.

    That's why W10M isn't going anywhere. It still has a purpose that W10/W10oA can't fulfill. Even if we don't see another device with W10M released in the next two years, it will still be there. MS is and will continue to develop it. If the Windows Store ever gets to a point where UWP apps are feasible on their own, then W10M will return. Very possibly even alongside W10oA, although very likely under a different name and with a NEON UI update, but it will still be W10M at heart.
    Windows on arm isn't broadly speaking "a smartphone move". MS has been quite clear that windows cloud and windows on arm are about "mobile pcs" and "cellular pcs", tablets, hybrids, laptops and servers. Not candybar pocket phones.

    The strategy has nothing to with replacing windows 10 mobile, and everything to do with markets MS has strength in, adding low power consumption, cheaper pricers, and LTE/Calling/GPS capability.

    I can't say specifically what will happen to windows 10 mobile, only that concept of cshell and one core is definitely about blurring the boundaries such that the OS converges and the devices converge. Given every UI can scale, I think its clear that ideally every OS branch should be able to run both UWP and UWA.

    Otherwise your missing opportunities when you use your phone for VR, continuum, or as a folding tablet, or streaming your xbox to your phone or whatever else.

    But IoT core can only run UWP, and we are awhile from windows on arm, as a pocket device, being a budget proposition to save money on devices so that one doesn't need a mobile+pc+tablet+laptop+smart tv etc etc (which is what I think is one of continuum type propositions biggest appeal, and so far, biggest weakness, device redundancy and the burden of expense that creates for the average family - rather than high fliers who want to work away from home).

    I think it's awhile before windows on arm is fully budget friendly AND scales down to devices like watches etc. Its essentially placed at the top of the current tech mobile market, in the energy efficient space anyway.

    So cheap & runs UWA & is potentially really small/thin etc, is still a work in progress as far as unification goes. Given IoT core can only run UWP as well, hardware just isnt' quite there yet for full unification.

    We are simply getting closer, but not close enough to call it on UWP only systems with a more strict SFF useage.

    Even if we were, there would still be as you point out, security reasons for a windows cloud type solution, with windows store only software and a focus on security etc. Something like "Windows Cloud on ARM" with a windows 10 mobile type NEON updated cshell.

    Redstone three has brought back throttling. That'll help with battery. But I expect with arm close, even on tablet FF, they'll be working a fair deal on energy consumption.

    Full windows is after all, a real-time multi-tasking environment. Everything mobile outside of bb10, is not. They freeze apps, prioritize services. At some point to equalize battery consumption, along side throttling which is coming, they will need a "real time task limiter" like either android or bb10, when operating on limited battery sizes etc. Perhaps just a toggle option somewhere (limit number of active tasks to n when on battery), to control what would look a bit like android ram management service, that freezes hungry background tasks, and limits active apps
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-30-2017 at 07:36 AM.
    04-30-2017 07:24 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    @Drael646464

    W10oA will never scale down to watches AS WELL. It's not that W10oA can't technically run on watches. If we really wanted to we could already do that today. It's just that there will always be, at least in some ways, better alternatives. For example, if you'd get 10h battery life from W10oA, you'll always get more from a real mobile OS. How much of a drawback that is, compared to potential benefits, is something everyone must decide for themselves.

    We also don't have to go all the way down to watches for this to matter. As long as W10oA remains compatible with Win32, it can never be a mobile OS. That comes with some drawbacks which are simply impossible to get around. In some areas like security, ease of use and battery life, W10oA will always be at a disadvantage.

    That's the only thing I'm unsure about whether or not we're in agreement. I agree on every other point. That W10oA is not a "smartphone move" has been clear to me from the moment it was announced.
    .
    Guytronic and libra89 like this.
    04-30-2017 07:54 AM
  8. Wbutchart1's Avatar
    Seems simple to me, with the new devices it will run windows 10 mobile for appearance. Windows on arm for continuum, so use that feature and you get full windows on the desktop experience. That would surely be the way to go and how I think they will go. To abandon continuum which is what a5cent is suggesting for only w10arm is contrary to virtually everything we have had from Satya on mobile (which isn't much granted). That's the way I see it going, win32 apps surely not running in a 5 inch screen that would be horrid! But using continuum that 5 inch arm device could easily be powering full windows 10 on another device.

    That's how I imagine they would want to take this, that is a truly cellular pc in my opinion, to dismiss the mobile element of that equation would be a foolish move on microsofts part.
    04-30-2017 08:08 AM
  9. Sherif Hafez's Avatar
    If windows Mobile is dead then Microsoft would not invest in updating to Redstone 3 and continue to pay for those software engineers to improve the the product.
    a5cent and FXi2 like this.
    04-30-2017 09:05 AM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    @Wbutchart1
    I'm not sure what exactly you've misunderstood, but you've certainly misunderstood something:

    1)
    Seems simple to me, with the new devices it will run windows 10 mobile for appearance. Windows on arm for continuum, so use that feature and you get full windows on the desktop experience.
    I suspect what you wanted to say is that W10oA will include some parts of W10M's UI, even that would be technically incorrect though. W10oA will just include some of the apps that currently ship as part of W10M, like the dialer app. That's all. Everything else that W10oA requires from W10M is already part of W10 and will be inherited by W10oA from there.

    2)
    To abandon continuum which is what a5cent is suggesting for only w10arm is contrary to virtually everything we have had from Satya on mobile (which isn't much granted).
    You got any of the stuff left you're smoking? ;-)

    Nowhere did I say Continuum would/should/will be abandoned. I haven't the foggiest how you came to that conclusion.
    Guytronic and libra89 like this.
    04-30-2017 09:10 AM
  11. Drael646464's Avatar
    Seems simple to me, with the new devices it will run windows 10 mobile for appearance. Windows on arm for continuum, so use that feature and you get full windows on the desktop experience. That would surely be the way to go and how I think they will go. To abandon continuum which is what a5cent is suggesting for only w10arm is contrary to virtually everything we have had from Satya on mobile (which isn't much granted). That's the way I see it going, win32 apps surely not running in a 5 inch screen that would be horrid! But using continuum that 5 inch arm device could easily be powering full windows 10 on another device.

    That's how I imagine they would want to take this, that is a truly cellular pc in my opinion, to dismiss the mobile element of that equation would be a foolish move on microsofts part.
    Meh, I mean something like a browser can surely be made to scale easily, running full win32. It's literally just a matter of re-arranging a little at the top and bottom for smaller screens. Certainly web apps run via html5 can scale. Fruity loops scales for a tablet, that's a win32.

    I've seen games that are win32 run on small screens play fine.

    I don't personally see win32 as fundamentally unscalable.

    I see no reason why say, adobe illustrator, fruity loops, or movie editing or other power win32 software on windows can't be converted to scalable, and run on windows on arm on a smaller screen.

    They don't specifically have to be coded as UWAs if mobile can run win32. Already programs can be made to run on both console and desktop/tablet without being coded as anything but win32. They can include touch without being anything but win32. Witcher 3, and several other win32 games are touch compatible. Extend that to mobile, and like with tablets, there is then motive to include touch and scaling.

    Obviously some apps will always be appropriate for certain screen sizes. An app written specifically for a watch, might not have been coded to scale for a fifty inch screen and vice versa, but by and large the goal is to move everyone towards scaling.

    Having apps that only work on small screens or big screens means you can never get real deep benefit out of simple things like miracast, VR, streaming things to your smaller device, and other convertible products.

    Sure all those legacy apps might not scale well on a small screen. But that doesn't stop currently revising software and new released from being both win32 and touch friendly on a small screen. For some things their might be motive to do that rather than write UWPs. Such as games. Or pre-existing code that is harder to convert.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-30-2017 at 10:05 AM.
    04-30-2017 09:17 AM
  12. Drael646464's Avatar
    1)


    I suspect what you wanted to say is that W10oA will include some parts of W10M's UI, even that would be technically incorrect though. W10oA will just include some of the apps that currently ship as part of W10M, like the dialer app. That's all. Everything else that W10oA requires from W10M is already part of W10 and will be inherited by W10oA from there.
    Composable shell, which will most likely come with redstone 3 IMO, will give different UIs based on form factor. The mobile ui on smaller screens, a tablet ui, and a full desktop ui. This cshell will be the same across all versions of windows, windows 10 mobile included - making the continuum mode on mobile, essentially the same as full desktop windows.

    Thusly there will be no "mobile ui" or 'desktop ui" or indeed 'console ui" just what the device is currently adaptively displaying (I suspect the console part will be also used to make desktops more entertainment focused, more of an optional switch - and maybe vice versa, turning your console into more of a pc)

    The concept of onecore, and cshell is one basic OS, across different hardware, with a shell that adapts to circumstances. Much like the UWAs are supposed to run across hardware, and adapt to circumstances (ideally, they don't always do it)

    This is the general drift (its a fan made concept, but this is basically the idea):



    We might be awhile off the hardware and OS convergence fully driving that software convergence in terms of UWA, but the fruits show soon, so hopefully after windows cloud, scorpio, cshell and windows on arm are all released this year, we will see devs, coming over to the notion of onecore, cshell, and the unified platform across devices (and thus scaling, and windows store)
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-30-2017 at 09:52 AM.
    04-30-2017 09:21 AM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    But yeah it does seem to be _scaling_ that's missing from this conversation I agree. The shell, the apps, all need to scale, as much as possible. The idea is convergence, running your big screen apps on a little screen, and vice versa, flexibility, so your OS can simply adapt to its input and output hardware.
    Okay. When software engineers discuss the issue of scaling they are rarely referring to the UI. None of my previous mentions of the term "scale" were about the UI either.

    The UI is a pretty small part of the entire OS-pie. At least from a technical point of view the UI is also rather inconsequential. It can be thrown away and reworked at anytime. It's just the paint. That's not true at all for the technically more relevant parts below the surface. Those are the parts software engineers worry more about when it comes to software's ability to scale.

    While a UI can scale, like many Andriod apps do when they are run on a tablet (which usually looks ugly and overblown), what the UWP is actually about is UI re-composition. It provides a standardized way for developers to recompose a UI on different display sizes rather than just scaling it.

    Scalability typically refers to software's ability to adapt to different hardware configurations and/or workloads. That could be a function of the number of concurrent users, or the available hardware (for example, games must scale their graphics output based on the available GPU capabilities). If the Win32 software you installed was designed to run 24/7, that's what it will do. There is no concept of a background task that runs only some of the time in the interest of saving power. W10M supports that and many many more concepts specific to mobile applications. Win32 does not mandate that developers consider such issues, so Win32 software almost never scales down to mobile hardware.

    The UI is obviously important to consumers, as that is how most people experience an OS. It's just not at all what I was talking about. CShell is certainly a good thing. It's just not relevant to the point I was making. I'd also prefer not to get into that here as there are already more than enough open issues to discuss without disagreeing on CShell related stuff too. ;-)
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-01-2017 at 07:17 AM.
    04-30-2017 10:01 AM
  14. Drael646464's Avatar
    For an example of a win32 app, that scales beautifully on a small tablet, is touch friendly, and is win32 but not a UWP app, but is on the windows store:

    Kodi.

    Now, should this app be hard to also scale for phone? not really. And a game that would play fine on a phablet but is win32 - trine 2.

    If you looked under the app collection "powerful PC software", you'll find a number of project centennial conversions. These are not what we think of as 'uwps', but they do run across devices - just not ones that can't run win32 (ie they _can_ be made to run on console and PC, such as the game "rise of the tomb raider" and some of the xbox live titles, although often that aren't designed to do so).

    I've been calling these 'UWAs' and that might be it, but I am not actually sure. They are win32s that act partly like traditional uwps.

    Sure, many of the current ones are too busy visually to be phone apps, but that's only because the hardware doesn't exist.

    When someone might write fruity loops to scale on a tablet, or write trine 2 to have touch interface, there simply is no product to write a win32 on that scales or works with phone.

    No one codes for hardware that doesn't exist.

    But with windows on arm, if someone primarily writes some win32 code for desktop, and then decides to push it also to tablet and mobile because its successful, there the option is for making it nice and scalable and putting it in the store.

    Sometimes touch/mobile is an afterthought for programmers. Not their primary audience or goal. Of course it'd be nice if everything shifted to UWP, but with many programmers having their traditional and high paying audiences on desktop and tablet, that's not going to happen overnight.

    It'd be easier to convince them to add touch, and scaling as an add-on, to convert via centennial rather than start their whole project with smartphones in mind.

    With windows cloud coming, and the security option to lock apps to the windows store however, that may still produce somewhat of the desired result - consideration of mobility, and engagement in the universal platform.
    04-30-2017 10:24 AM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    For an example of a win32 app, that scales beautifully on a small tablet, is touch friendly, and is win32 but not a UWP app, but is on the windows store:
    Kodi.
    <snipped>
    No one codes for hardware that doesn't exist. But with windows on arm, if someone primarily writes some win32 code for desktop, and then decides to push it also to tablet and mobile because its successful, there the option is for making it nice and scalable and putting it in the store.
    You are still talking about the UI. I am not. Futhermore, for every example of a Win32 app that uses touch and does scale well to very small screen sizes, I will find you 10'000 that do not and likely never will. Like I said, Win32 was not designed to support touch. It was tacked on as a clunky afterthought. You can hack your way around it and bleed and suffer in the process, but it's anything but simple and reliable. That won't change.

    If you looked under the app collection "powerful PC software", you'll find a number of project centennial conversions to the UWA.
    I think we've discussed this before. Centennial does not convert Win32 software into a UWP app. It remains Win32 software, even if it's in the Windows Store.
    04-30-2017 10:35 AM
  16. Iain_S's Avatar
    If windows Mobile is dead then Microsoft would not invest in updating to Redstone 3 and continue to pay for those software engineers to improve the the product.
    At this point mobile has not taken the jump to RS3, it has been removed from that branch of testing and is on its own CU Release2 branch.
    04-30-2017 01:54 PM
  17. EspHack's Avatar
    whatever, I could live with an 8" atom tablet as a phone, currently looking for one with cellular modem built in

    x86 master race##
    Drael646464 likes this.
    04-30-2017 03:47 PM
  18. PerfectReign's Avatar
    04-30-2017 04:29 PM
  19. Drael646464's Avatar
    You are still talking about the UI. I am not. Futhermore, for every example of a Win32 app that uses touch and does scale well to very small screen sizes, I will find you 10'000 that do not and likely never will. Like I said, Win32 was not designed to support touch. It was tacked on as a clunky afterthought. You can hack your way around it and bleed and suffer in the process, but it's anything but simple and reliable. That won't change.


    I think we've discussed this before. Centennial does not convert Win32 software into a UWP app. It remains Win32 software, even if it's in the Windows Store.
    Yes it becomes universal across win32 onecore platforms (like windows on arm, windows cloud, windows on x86, console), rather than across all onecore platforms (such as mobile and IoT).

    People are still making win32s, whether they design them to scale or not, that's up to the developers, as is the platform and code they choose to use.

    So long as MS is diversifying windows form factor, adding LTE, and encouraging use of the store, people will be enticed to scale. Cshell will be designed to function on small form factors, and that does involve x86 apps, in the form of basically every type of windows - cshell is not windows variant dependant.

    Which is good for windows 10 mobile too, as it means a full desktop experience when plugged in, using vr, or even miracasting.

    Hey, you may not like that particularly, or agree with the strategy, but that's how its going to be, x86 will be able to run on small LTE enabled, call and GPS enabled devices, and large devices alike, as will cshell.

    Mobile marketshare sure as heck ain't going to draw people to scaling their apps! And current tablet share isn't going to bring every x86 developer over to uwp either. I don't particularly see game coders giving up full screen exclusive mode any time soon, and games are amongst the most well funded apps, that have atm, at least unlike many win32s, a selection of touch enabled offerings. A company like adobe needs a good marketshare to bother investing even in tablets outside of large screen devices.

    Giving the option of both UWA, and UWP, whilst the lock down security option encourages window store (via CU and windows cloud), and windows on arm is aimed at expanding tablets (and cshell is designed to make windows scale into any form), should pay off as far as scaling is concerned.

    ATM, as much as windows tablets are the fastest growing, they are only 5 percent marketshare, and largely bigger screened devices. They are also largely expensive. MS needs to work on that, if its to get people to either scale win32 UWAs or make UWPs.

    There's nothing to stop someone writing a UWP that mainly suits just mobile, or mainly suits just desktop. The ability to scale isn't something someone can force at gunpoint. It's a commercial prospect, something that can only be encouraged and enticed. The main thing that will drive scalability, is an audience.

    For UWP only platforms, like mobile, and IoT core, that audience both doesn't exist, and will be awhile from being created. Its pragmatic to allow more of an afterthought mentality for UWA in the meantime. Even if, if marketshare of smaller devices kicked off, UWP would become more ideal.

    In the end, its about users, and FF/hardware platforms, than it is merely about the OS. OS and APIs can encourage, and they can sort of funnel people into certain things like the windows store or UWP/UWA, but only users can really seal the deal. Right now, users for tablets seem like a better bet, rather that users for watches or phones. And tablet users will be wanting to take advantage of win32s, even in smaller form factors.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-30-2017 at 09:23 PM.
    04-30-2017 08:59 PM
  20. Drael646464's Avatar
    whatever, I could live with an 8" atom tablet as a phone, currently looking for one with cellular modem built in

    x86 master race##
    There are just not enough intel tablets with LTE, especially in the smaller form factor. I'd be curious to try that out, or test it myself, given all the calling/texting etc is being imported into windows proper.
    04-30-2017 09:17 PM
  21. Sedp23's Avatar
    So, when will there be a massive 95% off sale of all windows phones at the Microsoft store? That's when I will go get a 950XL or the HP Elite X3!
    It's only a wind down of Microsoft phones not the os...i wouldn't expect a discount sale that massive on the hp they aren't goin out of business or anything

    Sent from Idol 4s
    libra89 and TgeekB like this.
    05-01-2017 07:22 AM
  22. Luuthian's Avatar
    Interesting that they're simply dumping hardware but not the OS itself... Guess we'll see where that goes. Blackberry tried the same thing and it went nowhere.
    05-01-2017 11:27 AM
  23. mikepalma's Avatar
    It's done guys. Wishful thinking won't change anything. It's a phone world now, and there are two options. W10M was a miserable failure. MS has a responsibility to make $ for its shareholders, not resuscitate a loser.

    Sent from mTalk
    Guytronic likes this.
    05-01-2017 11:32 AM
  24. Danobe's Avatar
    Interesting that they're simply dumping hardware but not the OS itself... Guess we'll see where that goes. Blackberry tried the same thing and it went nowhere.
    But Microsoft is a software company at heart. Blackberry not so much.
    05-01-2017 12:32 PM
  25. Drael646464's Avatar
    But Microsoft is a software company at heart. Blackberry not so much.
    MS is a multi-billion dollar company that actually profits from mobile, and can leverage its successes in many other areas. And it's most certainly still developing mobile, and people are most certainly developing UWPs. Clearly, a unified platform benefits from the ability to run on all devices.

    The sky is falling crowd could not be more obviously more distorting the reality.

    I wouldn't say BB is a failure yet either, their licensing with TCL might finally get them back in the black.
    05-01-2017 09:39 PM
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