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  1. Avi Kcholi's Avatar
    If once upon a time MS strength was backwards compatibility, today they are going all over the place. Erratic behaviour such as this does not inspire confidence and rather tells the customer base that you better go with a stable platform. I am not against advancement, not at all, but after forcing Silverlight down our throats and developers investing in it, if they render it useless on the new platform means that what little apps there are on the Windows mobile scene will dwindle down to nothing. Why would I as a consumer even consider it?
    Chippy757 likes this.
    06-09-2017 02:45 AM
  2. Avi Kcholi's Avatar
    The OS is the least of the worries compared to the App issue.
    Absolutely agree with you on OS stability issues. They are all mediocre to say the least. The main issue is lack of useful apps. Nobody these days develops for W10M. Apps are developed only for Android and iOS.
    06-09-2017 03:06 AM
  3. nate0's Avatar
    If once upon a time MS strength was backwards compatibility, today they are going all over the place. Erratic behaviour such as this does not inspire confidence and rather tells the customer base that you better go with a stable platform. I am not against advancement, not at all, but after forcing Silverlight down our throats and developers investing in it, if they render it useless on the new platform means that what little apps there are on the Windows mobile scene will dwindle down to nothing. Why would I as a consumer even consider it?
    You have a valid point. Seems though Microsoft is preparing for something. I just do not see where the flood gates will open up here for all these apps to just appear or pour in. I mean if they can emulate x86 on ARM, they sure as heck can emulate Android apks. Actually it would be easier and maybe more ethical to just do that out of the gate.
    Avi Kcholi likes this.
    06-09-2017 03:13 AM
  4. Avi Kcholi's Avatar
    Seems though Microsoft is preparing for something.
    I guess they are preparing for recursive reboots Haha
    nate0 likes this.
    06-09-2017 03:22 AM
  5. nate0's Avatar
    I guess they are preparing for recursive reboots Haha
    hehe. I wonder what would that look like?
    06-09-2017 03:30 AM
  6. nate0's Avatar
    A lot of it does not make sense. When we stare at it and try to see this picture they are painting. Jason Ward explained it very well in one of his Articles defining Microsoft's internal perspective like one of Artists sculpting the monuments on Mt. Rushmore. I thought that was a cool way to put it.

    But from our angle, we do not have the luxury of even the map of what is laid out. So we are caught waiting or following along sometimes. I still love the W10M OS. Be nice if they relax on it a bit and just refine/mold/sculpt the tar out of W10M. I seriously hope Microsoft makes it to their goal, whatever it is with all this innovation on the platform side, like anyone else it can tend to make me wonder some times...
    06-09-2017 03:36 AM
  7. dov1978's Avatar
    I don't think any of us here that have been through at least 2 or 3 reboots already are excited about another attempt but I'm a sucker for punishment and I'll hang around and give them a chance...again. They really need to sort the apps this time around though. It's key in my opinion. I don't care how they market it and if it is going to be aimed primarily at Enterprise then it still needs apps. I'm not a businessman or power user but I know they need apps outside work too for things like fitness, social media, media consumption and photography. They're still normal people outside of work and I'm sure they don't want to be carrying a separate phone for those apps like many of us have been forced to do just now to fill the gaps. These apps need to look and function well too and not like how they did in the past where we had some of the big names but the apps looked awful and had far less functionality than their counterparts on iOS or Android. Yes give them a Windows look but keep them mostly on par. We also need Google on board as there's just too many people that do want their apps vs those who don't. They should be there as a choice. Windows just now is the odd one out, Android has Google apps (obviously), Apple apps and Microsoft Apps. iPhone has Apple apps (obviously), Google Apps and Microsoft apps. And Windows just has Microsoft apps. All 3 have third party apps too of course but Windows has an ever shrinking selection of those too and replacing them with Web link tiles just isn't the way forward!

    I still want them to get this right and get in the game just like I did when I first got on board with my Lumia 800 on WP7 and told everyone I knew "watch this space, Windows Phone will be the biggest phone OS in a years time. It's Microsoft, if anyone can do it they can".
    NYCMetsPDX likes this.
    06-09-2017 04:57 AM
  8. Drael646464's Avatar
    Well yes, in SE Asia Nokia was big, they had their support centres in every corner of the city, priority showrooms etc. MS inherited them but never converted / expanded them to include other MS products, I think Nadella always wanted to lose the Nokia baggage right from start, so he let them go.
    They only leased the brand, so they didn't actually own the nokia brand, or the channels.
    06-09-2017 07:01 AM
  9. Drael646464's Avatar
    You have a valid point. Seems though Microsoft is preparing for something. I just do not see where the flood gates will open up here for all these apps to just appear or pour in. I mean if they can emulate x86 on ARM, they sure as heck can emulate Android apks. Actually it would be easier and maybe more ethical to just do that out of the gate.
    And abandon the UWP platform? Developers would never take MS seriously again. That could almost doom the whole OS platform.

    Yes MS can easily emulate 4.3 android (not beyond), but a) that's going out of use and b) using another software OS app platform is death to your own. UWP needs an all in attitude from MS, a bullish, car game of 'chicken', yes we are goddamn doing this attitude, that will encourage even game devs and steam users to switch in the end. Anything less could literally be the move that killed windows.

    They key is that full UWP cannot depend on win10m alone. It must be supported by windows on arm on tablets and laptops as well as windows s, and new catergory definging devices, more mixed reality and so on. It needs a chorus of hardware platforms repleat with users.

    Then no on can ignore it anymore.
    nate0 likes this.
    06-09-2017 07:04 AM
  10. TennisGuy45's Avatar
    If once upon a time MS strength was backwards compatibility, today they are going all over the place. Erratic behaviour such as this does not inspire confidence and rather tells the customer base that you better go with a stable platform. I am not against advancement, not at all, but after forcing Silverlight down our throats and developers investing in it, if they render it useless on the new platform means that what little apps there are on the Windows mobile scene will dwindle down to nothing. Why would I as a consumer even consider it?
    I don't think you understand what Silverlight is and what it is/was meant for.

    You also don't seem to understand what everything Microsoft has done in app development since then is either.

    Here is a very very short synopsis, and will help explain why Silverlight is going to be retired.
    Silverlight created as a interactive web plugin, almost a competitor to Adobe Flash.
    Sliverlight introduces XAML and new way of building UI, absolutely changes the way .Net developers can build quick, fluid, responsive UI.
    Microsoft takes Sliverlights XAML UI design and adapts it to WPF for windows applications.
    Microsoft enters mobile market wants to build flexible way of creating apps, uses Silverlight as a way.
    Microsoft creates universal apps, ability to create apps without need of Silverlight (remember this tech was designed as a web plugin).
    Microsoft creates UWP and wants to retire Silverlight.
    Why you say? Well UWP is idea to run apps on any Windows core. Silverlight is built around dependencies on web and old libraries no longer used.
    Since Silverlight introduced XAML and every UI tech since then has built off XAML it is not too difficult or resource intensive to make these legacy Silverlight apps into UWP.
    Getting rid of old legacy API's and apps allows Microsoft to remove bloat, overhead, and move to a cleaner-faster-more integrated future.
    Drael646464, mattiasnyc and 9ja like this.
    06-09-2017 08:16 AM
  11. tgp's Avatar
    Then no on can ignore it anymore.
    You're new here aren't you? ;-) While you may be correct, we've been saying this for the last several years, every time Microsoft has come up with some scheme to encourage app development.
    libra89 and techiez like this.
    06-09-2017 08:28 AM
  12. brau0303's Avatar
    I am always interested to see what experiments may produce in the Mobility space..

    Cheers,
    BR
    06-09-2017 08:33 AM
  13. Drael646464's Avatar
    You're new here aren't you? ;-) While you may be correct, we've been saying this for the last several years, every time Microsoft has come up with some scheme to encourage app development.
    UWP is two years old, I'm 39, so relative to me UWP is new. I'm not new to how slow people are to adapt no. 16 bit. win 3.1. windows nt/xp. UWP is a bigger shift. It's a bigger project to get people to adapt. In two years this ain't bad.

    People will believe what they like but uwp its not about 8.1 or windows phone 7, its not about Silverlight, and its not even about mobile period. It's about windows period, same way all those former, small shifts were.

    People who think this is about 'apps' have it all wrong imo. UWP isn't 'apps', its the proposed next step for the entire Microsoft software ecosystem, as win32 was, as windows 3.1 was, as xp was, but even more so.

    Windows will thrive or fail, as a whole, on uwp. If it fails it might be time to go Linux, or buy a mac, or get used to chromeos.

    It requires not just dev adoption, but user adoption. In a timespan of two years though I think MSFT has done very well with this mammoth task. Perhaps in five we can call win32 legacy and mean it.
    nate0 likes this.
    06-09-2017 09:22 AM
  14. nate0's Avatar
    UWP is two years old, I'm 39, so relative to me UWP is new. I'm not new to how slow people are to adapt no. 16 bit. win 3.1. windows nt/xp. UWP is a bigger shift. It's a bigger project to get people to adapt. In two years this ain't bad.

    People will believe what they like but uwp its not about 8.1 or windows phone 7, its not about Silverlight, and its not even about mobile period. It's about windows period, same way all those former, small shifts were.

    People who think this is about 'apps' have it all wrong imo. UWP isn't 'apps', its the proposed next step for the entire Microsoft software ecosystem, as win32 was, as windows 3.1 was, as xp was, but even more so.

    Windows will thrive or fail, as a whole, on uwp. If it fails it might be time to go Linux, or buy a mac, or get used to chromeos.

    It requires not just dev adoption, but user adoption. In a timespan of two years though I think MSFT has done very well with this mammoth task. Perhaps in five we can call win32 legacy and mean it.
    You have a point. Microsoft did not just reboot W10M, they are basically rebooting Windows entirely since W10 was released. To move everything forward as huge an operation as it is, it will take time. Now 2 years in already about...it will take time.

    We focus on W10M so much because the world is so into mobile and handhelds now that it is crazy.
    Drael646464 likes this.
    06-09-2017 10:48 AM
  15. RayWP7's Avatar
    I think Microsoft should do what they think is best. If focusing on gaming, Surface, and VR/AR are their priorities, thats fine. If they do come into the mobile space, remember they stuck with Windows phone/mobile pretty much until the 950. Then they declared enterprise focus and the next round of "re-entrenchment" occurred. Whatever they do, if they do decide to make another push - they should be ready and not have to require many (more) iterations of OS. Going from 7 to 10 was pretty painful if you're not a tech/ Windows fan. It seems like they are getting to the point of platform stability in terms of what is needed for mobile. CShell sounds pretty promising. Finally, they should have inked commitments from at least the top 50 mobile app vendors to have their presence "legitimized." Windows desktop app gap on mobile form factor is something people have dealt with for decades, it won't be disruptive. They need to just focus on their "WinOS anywhere" mantra and ensure that popular experiences on other platforms have representation and are of at least equal quality. Its a tall order, but they either want to make headway and make people notice them, or they don't. It can't be just enthusiasts like us. Surface has done a lot to rehabilitate their late 90s image. They should capitalize on their new image.
    nate0 likes this.
    06-09-2017 01:21 PM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    UWP is two years old, I'm 39, so relative to me UWP is new.
    You have a point. Microsoft did not just reboot W10M, they are basically rebooting Windows entirely since W10 was released.
    Actually, it's not that new.

    Despite WCentral's myriad attempts at muddying the waters around the term UWP, it's still (and always has been) an API and a runtime environment. UWP directly evolved out of WinRT, which first shipped with Windows RT back in 2012. MS had been working on WinRT already for many years prior to that. That is to say this transition is in no way a recent development. It reaches back far longer than two years. It started long before anybody even knew what W10 would look like. The only thing that really changed with W10, was that it provided the vessel through which UWP first started having an affect on the world of the average Windows desktop user. That is all.

    The word "reboot" seems to be the term of the hour, particularly in regard to WP/WM. I hate it since it is devoid of any real meaning. The best thing about it is that we can all imagine it to mean whatever we want it to mean, which is why we all agree that we're witnessing one yet again. Still, out of all the ways "reboot" is being used, the transition from Win32 to UWP is probably the change that most deserves that label. UWP can be viewed as a brand new and entirely incompatible second OS that just happens to ship alongside Win32. The difference is far bigger than the last time MS managed such a transition, when Windows went from Win16 to Win32. Win32 could at least still run Win16 programs. UWP can not run Win32 programs... that's why W10 ships with both APIs.

    This is one of the biggest changes to Windows in over two decades. You guys are right that UWP is about far more than just smartphone apps. I hope more come to understand that in time.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-09-2017 at 07:40 PM. Reason: spelling
    tgp, Guytronic, nate0 and 4 others like this.
    06-09-2017 02:35 PM
  17. nate0's Avatar
    @a5cent
    I agree. That term "reboot" should be used loosely. I am not familiar enough on the history of Windows nor did I expereicne first hand win16 to win32. So from your description puts things into perspective. Thanks.
    a5cent likes this.
    06-09-2017 04:31 PM
  18. Drael646464's Avatar
    Actually, it's not that new.

    Despite WCentral's myriad attempts at muddying the waters around the term UWP, it's still (and always has been) an API and a runtime environment. UWP directly evolved out of WinRT, which first shipped with Windows RT back in 2012. MS had been working on WinRT already for many years prior to that. That is to say this transition is in no way a recent development. It reaches back far longer than two years. It started long before anybody even knew what W10 would look like. The only thing that really changed with W10, was that it provided the vessel through which UWP first started having an affect on the world of the average Windows desktop user. That is all.

    The word "reboot" seems to be the term of the hour, particularly in regard to WP/WM. I hate it since it is devoid of any real meaning. The best thing about it is that we can all imagine it to mean whatever we want it to mean, which is why we all agree that we're witnessing one yet again. Still, out of all the ways "reboot" is being used, the transition from Win32 to UWP is probably the change that most deserves that label. UWP can be viewed as a brand new and entirely incompatible second OS that just happens to ship alongside Win32. The difference is far bigger than the last time MS managed such a transition, when Windows went from Win16 to Win32. Win32 could at least still run Win16 programs. UWP can not run Win32 programs... that's why W10 ships with both APIs.

    This is one of the biggest changes to Windows in over two decades. You guys are right that UWP is about far more than just smartphone apps. I hope more come to understand that in time.
    Sure its an evolution, true. Like the NT core was for XP (it existed 5 years before xp), its bringing together elements of the past. MSFT is good like that re-purposing elements of the past that worked.

    But yeah, the main point on which you agree :), is that its a reboot of the whole windows platform, its a huge task, a monumental shift for users and developers.

    And I think in the timespan, even if in some ways its been longer than 2 years (like if your looking at XAML) it's doing pretty well.

    It's funny how actually not many people 'get' what UWP actually is yet, in a way. You get people talking about 'the store' and 'apps', not really understanding that this is a modernized platform vision.

    That just shows how radical it is, that most people still don't understand it yet. And the task that MS has in needing to communicate that to developers, and what it can offer them.
    nate0, a5cent and PerfectReign like this.
    06-09-2017 10:32 PM
  19. Eric Tay's Avatar
    Who knows, maybe MS will recompile the Silverlight app into UWP via another bridge?
    nate0 likes this.
    06-10-2017 01:09 AM
  20. manjitrupbikram brahma's Avatar
    Who knows, maybe MS will recompile the Silverlight app into UWP via another bridge?
    Keeping all the doors and windows open I guess.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-10-2017 at 09:03 AM.
    Eric Tay likes this.
    06-10-2017 02:20 AM
  21. chenryhen's Avatar
    Why isn't MS just getting in touch with Facebook, telling them to program WhatsApp as a Universal App while covering the expenses?
    I've honestly wondered about this a lot…maybe it's because it sets a bad precedence, but you would think MSFT has enough money and clout to negotiate the development of some of the most wanted apps. Or set up a studio to do the work as contractors to the original developers.
    Chippy757 likes this.
    06-12-2017 08:14 AM
  22. Drael646464's Avatar
    I've honestly wondered about this a lot…maybe it's because it sets a bad precedence, but you would think MSFT has enough money and clout to negotiate the development of some of the most wanted apps. Or set up a studio to do the work as contractors to the original developers.
    MSFT owns 1.5% of facebook, so they are probably always a little inclined to program stuff for windows. However, people always bring up paying off developers, and the route of paying developers to have THE SAME apps as other platforms doesn't make as much sense as paying developers/making deals to get apps THAT ONLY EXIST on windows IMO. Power software, desktop games, creative software, enterprise software etc.

    Still either way, spending money on getting devices in consumers hands makes more sense I think, because devices in consumers hands equals users, which is what devs all want.

    Windows on arm for example will make useful on tablets and laptops a range of mobility software that could be ported via islandwood from ios. And even though it does run win32 it runs it, at best case, 70% native speed , and often I would guess slower. So even if your software runs via win32 on WoA tablets and laptops, like the new centennial bridge WhatsApp desktop app will, it won't run AS WELL, as a full UWP.

    If you can see my point, creating devices in users hands, like windows s, and windows on arm, the new console, mixed reality etc, as ways to envourage developers to write for users on the platform, makes more sense as an investment because it casts a wider net, and its actually creating a market, rather than artificially pretending their is one.

    A studio isn't a bad idea, a small one, for little app gaps, to cheaply contract windows UWP apps. But in many cases, the companies would still need to see a bottom line...
    chenryhen likes this.
    06-13-2017 04:06 AM
  23. chenryhen's Avatar
    It's not just about the UI - it's the services. At least for me. After the Lumia 950 getting ****ty reviews, I first switched to BB10 to just experience the death of another good OS there. Now, a Nexus 5x is my electronic assistant, and honestly - Android looks and feels a little bit like patchwork.
    Exactly this for me. I have an iPad Pro, and I gotta say, that as Apple tries to introduce new baked in functionality to iOS, it feels the same way.
    06-23-2017 08:30 AM
  24. aj173's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure just about everyone here knows that MS can't sit out the mobile space........is constant attempt by MS to break into mobile....
    That's the thing; Microsoft isn't sitting out of the mobile space. They're done an outstanding job of breaking into consumer mobile......if you own an iOS or Android device. You could argue quite convincingly that MS has never been in a better position in the consumer mobile market. But keep in mind that Microsoft being "mobile first" doesn't necessarily require that Microsoft have their own viable mobile OS. Windows Phone diehards like us tend to automatically conflate the two. However, most companies that have been successful in delivering consumer mobile products and services actually don't have their own moble OS. In the eyes (and wallet) of Microsoft, subscribing to Office 365 on an Android phone works just as well for them as subscribing to it on a Windows Phone. Microsoft is in mobile. Just not in the way we dream about in our little heads.
    07-07-2017 12:46 AM
  25. mtf1380's Avatar
    I think MS should get out of the Full-Line mobile business for good, and stick with "a" top-of-the-line, Surface Brand Only, product...and leave the full line category to the OEMs. That way Microsoft can focus on the prestige of a true flagship phone, and capitalize on some much needed press and respect. Focusing on innovation, style, form factor and a solid OS, would be monies very well spent, and well within their abilities. The flagship should be designed, and produced, for the promotion of the ecosystem's capabilities and what a determined Microsoft is able to create; its goal should not be based on profit, but for demonstrating innovation. Giving some much needed respect to Microsoft's image, as a powerhouse.
    fatclue_98 and Guytronic like this.
    07-07-2017 11:00 AM
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