10-13-2017 10:14 AM
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  1. Giorgos Michaelides's Avatar
    I do not know about Cshell and Microsoft direction with mobile but what is needed to boost this OS is actuall functionality from OEM apps and developers. Common apps for cctv or automation around home and businesses are found lacking in W10 Mobile. Creston, Honeywell, Ademco has apps for IOs and Android. We don't get them and not only that no third party app is found to be compatible with anything either. Yes I am with Microsoft since day one my business envirmonemnt is Microsoft so I find it reasonable to remain in this OS.

    Seriously though need to develop in the direction that matters and not just meaningless apps and or games which I found no pleasure having or using. Some attempts have failed and some were dropped, this is what bothers me. Simple thinks like my online banking is not available and two stage verification app cannot be used on W10 Mobile. Cshell or not give us the apps to feel like we belong somewhere and that developers don't just turn and walk away from W10 mobile. I am on the brink of mooving away after so long and so many hopes for something that was focused on the rest of us and not just be part of the croweded IOs and Android.

    Dn't even let me go to car connectivity issues and interface compatibility...
    TechFreak1 and pedmar007 like this.
    06-08-2017 09:19 AM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    It seems they really are pushing not only for one core but for one Windows that runs on anything. We've seen this with W10 for ARM and now Composable Shell that will adapt itself to any form factor.

    That would actually be quite big as it would mean there is only one OS and only one app model for ANY device imaginable AND it could also run legacy Win32 apps.
    As long as Win32 and UWP both exist, we'll have two app models. As long as Win32 and UWP both exist, there will continue to be two completely different and incompatible ways of developing software. As long as Win32 and UWP exist, one part of the system will require users to have at least some IT skills and be vulnerable to user errors, while the other will largely administer itself and protect users from themselves. It's not really one OS. It's still two, just rolled up into one package. That's a more accurate way of thinking about it.

    Only the versions of Windows without Win32 (like W10M) are really just one OS, with one app model, with one security model, with one API, etc.
    06-09-2017 09:22 PM
  3. a5cent's Avatar
    CShell is the Windows launcher. Making the launcher adapt to different screen sizes, so all of MS' various versions of Windows can use the same launcher rather than each having it's own, is a necessary next step. It will certainly make the Continuum experience more seamless than it is now, by providing users with more commonality and consistency across form factors. While that's a good thing, I don't see how it changes anything for MS in the consumer space. A more seamless Continuum experience is not the killer feature consumers have been waiting for. IMHO it is at most a necessary leg of the path MS must travel, but ultimately, not where MS needs to go.
    xandros9, nate0 and Guytronic like this.
    06-09-2017 10:01 PM
  4. Drael646464's Avatar
    CShell is the Windows launcher. Making the launcher adapt to different screen sizes, so all of MS' various versions of Windows can use the same launcher rather than each having it's own, is a necessary next step. It will certainly make the Continuum experience more seamless than it is now, by providing users with more commonality and consistency across form factors. While that's a good thing, I don't see how it changes anything for MS in the consumer space. A more seamless Continuum experience is not the killer feature consumers have been waiting for. IMHO it is at most a necessary leg of the path MS must travel, but ultimately, not where MS needs to go.
    I could see some consumer use cases. There was talk of bringing the console UI to PC, and I think an entertainment focused PC shell could have its fans for TV boxes and the like. Likewise perhaps the PC UI could run on some consoles?

    It would certainly also be useful for hybrid devices, although I agree these in themselves are not killer features average users are waiting for.

    I think continuum would need to be cheap, have storage of a much higher level in phones, and perhaps thunderbolt docking, as well as some public recognition before it would even find niche application in the average user.

    Although, that rumoured table projection could help a little.
    06-09-2017 10:42 PM
  5. mikosoft's Avatar
    Only the versions of Windows without Win32 (like W10M) are really just one OS, with one app model, with one security model, with one API, etc.
    Yes, I do agree but supporting old app model is a necessary step as the UWP adoption is slow. MS needs to push for UWP adoption but I'd say slowly deprecating Win32 and adding new functionality to UWP is the best way. MS can no longer allow sudden changes like driver models in XP and Vista since MS no longer dominates OS space.
    06-10-2017 05:18 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    Yes, I do agree but supporting old app model is a necessary step as the UWP adoption is slow. MS needs to push for UWP adoption but I'd say slowly deprecating Win32 and adding new functionality to UWP is the best way. MS can no longer allow sudden changes like driver models in XP and Vista since MS no longer dominates OS space.
    Yeah, we agree. I had already suspected none of what I wrote was news to you. ;-)

    I just think we must get people away from the idea that W10 is a single OS. That's a very widespread misconception, and posts like yours unintentionally strengthen it, because we too often conflate "single distribution" with "single OS". I've done it too... :-/

    W10M is the only version of Windows for personal-computing that is really just a single OS. In retrospect, more people understanding that would have greatly aided in my attempts at explaining why W10M is not dead. I've since been proven right. Nobody at MS will confirm that W10M is being shuttered and development of W10M will continue. People still don't understand why though. It's not necessarily because MS want's to get back into the smartphone game (although it can't be ruled out either). It's primarily because W10M (on tablets, ultrabooks and phones) is the OS MS needs consumers to use, because it's the only version of Windows that is guaranteed to be free of the headaches caused by Win32 which will always prevent Windows from being popular with the average Joe. It's MS' only hope of permanently regaining ground in the consumer space where Windows must compete with simple-to-use mobile OSes.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-10-2017 at 10:58 AM.
    nate0, xandros9 and TechFreak1 like this.
    06-10-2017 08:54 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    In regard to CShell:

    All existing W10M devices are serviced off the second code branch. I don't think that will change, meaning I very much doubt any existing W10M device will ever get a version of W10M with CShell.

    Any future W10M device, whether it's a smartphone or not, will get its version of W10M off the main branch (like existing W10M devices did up until three months ago). Those W10M devices will get CShell.

    That is my prediction.
    nate0, CraigCole, milkyway and 3 others like this.
    06-10-2017 09:01 AM
  8. nate0's Avatar
    W10M is the only version of Windows for personal-computing that is really just a single OS. In retrospect, more people understanding that would have greatly aided in my attempts at explaining why W10M is not dead. I've since been proven right. Nobody at MS will confirm that W10M is being shuttered and development of W10M will continue. People still don't understand why though. It's not necessarily because MS want's to get back into the smartphone game (although it can't be ruled out either). It's primarily because W10M (on tablets, ultrabooks and phones) is the OS MS needs consumers to use, because it's the only version of Windows that is guaranteed to be free of the headaches caused by Win32 which will always prevent Windows from being popular with the average Joe. It's MS' only hope of permanently regaining ground in the consumer space where Windows must compete with simple-to-use mobile OSes.
    This is why as a Windows Phone or W10M user, I continue to hold tight. I have rambled in my brain how many different models (versions/SKUs) of the W10 OS/W10M OS there are and why. W10M is by far going to be perfect for what you declared in the above statement. It is the only OS that runs only on ARM (for now), and is built for UWP only. It is secure enough for even enterprise. Which brings me to ask what is going on with the Enterprise version of W10M?

    Seems only viable that Microsoft continues to nurture and refine W10M for the future of hw advancements. Much like W10 IoT will be needed many years into the future.

    I still cannot figure out if some of what Microsoft is doing are attempts to stop the bleeding in areas they are hurting, or if they are intentional moves. The fact that not one mobile device (ARM) has been released from them in almost 2 years had a lot of impact for some folks. But their W10M OS has shown a ton of improvement over that time, so maybe there are trade offs.
    a5cent likes this.
    06-10-2017 11:27 AM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    I still cannot figure out if some of what Microsoft is doing are attempts to stop the bleeding in areas they are hurting, or if they are intentional moves.
    Yeah, that's a tough one. MS' has done a good job of sticking to the overarching strategy (OS unification, and CShell is part of that). However, MS completely failed at turning that good strategy into a successful market reality, which basiclly comes down to poor execution. At this point their tactical moves are almost all reactionary, largely reflecting MS' executives moving from one state of panic to another, being blown in which ever way market realities take them, while making every tactical decision from a position of weakness...

    I have a feeling that a lot of the time, many MS employees are just as clueless about what they are doing as we are.

    W10M is by far going to be perfect for what you declared in the above statement. It is the only OS that runs only on ARM (for now), and is built for UWP only. It is secure enough for even enterprise. Which brings me to ask what is going on with the Enterprise version of W10M?
    Continuum is the only differentiator W10M has. Continuum can't be sold to consumers (at least not to the mass market), which is why W10M is being pitched as an enterprise solution instead. There is only one version of W10M, which is the enterprise version of W10M. We already all have it. That's why MS stopped trying to sell W10M to consumers all together. That's all there is to the whole "enterprise" angle.

    On a side note, neither W10M or W10 are built for any specific CPU architecture. Those days are long over. MS can press a button and out comes W10 for x86. They can press a different button and out comes W10 for ARM. The same applies to W10M, i.e. W10M is not specifically built for ARM. The compiler is what does all the work to make software CPU specific. W10M can already run on x86, as it's just W10 with some stuff left out (mostly Win32). Platform specific drivers being available is the only thing the OS needs to be able to run. The big deal about W10oA is not that it runs on ARM (that has been possible for years already, e.g. Windows RT), but that it includes an x86 emulator. That's the only part in all of W10 that is not a driver but still specific to ARM.
    TechFreak1 likes this.
    06-10-2017 12:31 PM
  10. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    A more seamless Continuum experience is not the killer feature consumers have been waiting for. IMHO it is at most a necessary leg of the path MS must travel, but ultimately, not where MS needs to go.
    Not sure what "killer feature consumers have been waiting for" though. All I see when people criticize MS mobile is the lack of apps (and instability, but that's hardly unique to MS). I haven't hear much at all about some "killer feature" that users are looking for.

    So, point being that while we can say that users aren't responding with a tremendous excitement to continuum that's possibly because of a lack of imagination on their part. Sure, the implementation of continuum specifically has been limited, but it shows a future that should be interesting to most people. Let me put it like this:

    If Apple announced a feature that worked like continuum/cshell all the iPhone fans would go nuts. If MS does it nobody cares. I think that's pretty much it. There needs to be an awareness raised about what the technology does and intends to do. It's the awareness and understanding that can make users change their habits and make use of the technology. If they don't "get it" then of course it won't be used, and it won't be a "killer feature" either.

    I think the broader consumer experience landscape that MS has hinted at is quite exciting actually. CShell, continuum, UWP etc all seem to play a key part in all of it. I can't wait for it to reach us consumers.

    In regard to CShell:

    All existing W10M devices are serviced off the second code branch. I don't think that will change, meaning I very much doubt any existing W10M device will ever get a version of W10M with CShell.
    Well, didn't one of the guys here at Windowscentral show CShell running on the Elite x3 though? If it did then it must have either been developed on that code branch which should indicate it's not unlikely heading to mobile, or the two code branches aren't as separate as we might think they are (or, granted, it was built before the branching occurred).
    Rozdzan Waadd likes this.
    06-10-2017 03:28 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    Well, didn't one of the guys here at Windowscentral show CShell running on the Elite x3 though? If it did then it must have either been developed on that code branch which should indicate it's not unlikely heading to mobile, or the two code branches aren't as separate as we might think they are (or, granted, it was built before the branching occurred).
    I'd speculate the build for that demonstration on the x3 was simply created off the main W10 code branch. Up until a few months ago that is how it always worked. That build is just not something they'd want to release to the masses, as they'd have to ensure all their modifications haven't negatively affect W10M on the x3 or any other W10M device. The second branch was created, in part, to specifically avoid that regression-testing effort.

    Consider also that MS initially demonstrating W10M on the L1520... a device that was never officially updated to W10M. IMHO this is the same thing with the x3 *.

    * edit: this is not true. See below.

    Don't take this too seriously though. It's probably the least well grounded of all my predictions on WCentral so far. ;-)

    Not sure what "killer feature consumers have been waiting for" though. All I see when people criticize MS mobile is the lack of apps (and instability, but that's hardly unique to MS). I haven't hear much at all about some "killer feature" that users are looking for.
    Killer features are generally developed under the radar. Consumers will usually have no idea they even want it until they see it for the first time. That's pretty much how every disruptive innovation was introduced to market. MS will not succeed in the mobile space if they can't bring that type of innovation to bare. They are too far behind to achieve success in any other way.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-10-2017 at 09:22 PM.
    06-10-2017 05:07 PM
  12. chancooluk's Avatar
    Originally posted by a5cent
    Originally Posted by mattiasnyc
    Well, didn't one of the guys here at Windowscentral show CShell running on the Elite x3 though? If it did then it must have either been developed on that code branch which should indicate it's not unlikely heading to mobile, or the two code branches aren't as separate as we might think they are (or, granted, it was built before the branching occurred).
    I'd speculate the build for that demonstration on the x3 was simply created off the main W10 code branch. Up until a few months ago that is how it always worked. That build is just not something they'd want to release to the masses, as they'd have to ensure all their modifications haven't negatively affect W10M on the x3 or any other W10M device. The second branch was created, in part, to specifically avoid that regression-testing effort.

    Consider also that MS initially demonstrating W10M on the L1520... a device that was never officially updated to W10M. IMHO this is the same thing with the x3.

    Don't take this too seriously though. It's probably the least well grounded of all my predictions on WCentral so far. ;-)
    The 1520 did officially get W10M, up to Anniversary Update, but was not included in the Creators Update.
    a5cent likes this.
    06-10-2017 05:43 PM
  13. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Killer features are generally developed under the radar. Consumers will usually have no idea they even want it until they see it for the first time. That's pretty much how every disruptive innovation was introduced to market. MS will not succeed in the mobile space if they can't bring that type of innovation to bare. They are too far behind to achieve success in any other way.
    Ok, so what is a killer feature for you then, and how do you know a seamless fully functional continuum experience isn't a killer feature for the general public?
    a5cent likes this.
    06-10-2017 07:53 PM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    ...and how do you know a seamless fully functional continuum experience isn't a killer feature for the general public?
    I just have a hard time believing the general public would be excited by the idea of running Win32 software (we won't have any meaningful continuum capable UWP apps for quite some time yet) from a phone sized package that still requires them to hook up a large monitor and keyboard. For most, that would surely seem like MS is just making things more complicated, compared to just using an ultrabook which already integrates all the required peripherals.

    I think the reception so far is further evidence that not many people are genuinely excited by the prospects of Continuum.

    Lastly, MS doesn't seem to think Continuum is of much interest to consumers either. They are marketing it towards enterprise customers.

    While Continuum is certainly a unique feature, I just don't see the mass market being interested in that capability, particularly not while it remains essentially a desktop computer in a small package. That's really not compatible with mass market needs.

    Ok, so what is a killer feature for you then,
    A killer feature is any disruptive technology or feature. A disruptive techology or feature is one that revolutionizes the market to which the technology is introduced, or it creates an entirely new market that didn't previously exist.

    When Apple released the first iPhone, it was the only pocketable device that allowed people to surf the web in a way that didn't make you want to kill yourself. That, combined with the touch interface made the iPhone uniquely useful and uniquely fool proof. It single handedly made smartphones a mass market phenomenon.

    The introduction of the graphical user interface was also a killer feature.

    There are a gazillion other examples but I'm sure you get the idea.
    Timbre70 likes this.
    06-10-2017 09:18 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    The 1520 did officially get W10M, up to Anniversary Update, but was not included in the Creators Update.
    You're right. Sorry. I had gotten rid of mine by the time the update finally hit the L1520. My bad.
    06-10-2017 09:22 PM
  16. Drael646464's Avatar
    I'd guess all the FCU updates and cshell are coming to existing phones. For one, the only new phone on the immediate horizon is HPs refresh. Secondly we have seen features like "placeholders" and "cshell" demonstrated on 32 bit machines, existing machines (the 950 and x3 respectively) - the next gen will nessasarily be 64 bit, as that is all the QUALCOMM make now.

    It would make sense of the second branch - that its intended to bring the old gen of phones up to speed with the new gen, before the 'hand over'. All those features like timeline etc. The 4s and x3 aren't that old, it's a bit early to retire them, and not enough to replace them.

    It also makes sense of why they are working so closely with HP - presumably the x3 refresh is 64 bit, and they ae doing parallel development with them, using that as reference hardware for the secret win10m build (Which I think ill have stylus support than our branch may never see)

    MSFT must be painfully aware of the importance of good transition here. As they intend to release a new phone soonish (next year most likely, Andromeda), they will also be watching this ball more closely.

    I think FCU will be "the last great update". It may be while mobile is still on feature two, but because "productivity features" have been announced for late US summer by MFST, we won't have to wait long to see whether their is any folding back into the main branch for this.

    No doubt, their stated reason, to work on one core makes a great deal of sense, given the move the 64 bit, windows s, windows on arm, the new console OS, Andromeda, and changes like cshell and the inclusion of phone features in the core as a default. There is some serious OS code shake up here, and we are seeing very little of it, as yet.

    But it does seem unlikely current phones will get much after this year than bugfixes and security, given the 64 bit change that must be coming.

    I hope MSFT handles this transition well. If it dumps existing phones despite many overt promises of coming features (improvements to continuum, timeline etc), even in recent months, it will bee totally shooting itself in the foot.

    Logically it makes sense they would (burning their userbase at this crucial point, and outright lying to them would not be smart), and also logically it makes sense they have already written such code for existing hardware (using both the x3 and 950 as reference hardware, as we've seen these technologies demonstrated on said hardware)

    I wouldn't be surprised if cshell is the 'productivity features' coming in late summer. I would be quite surprised if current big four models get nothing for FCU or late summer.

    If there were some other popular handset on the horizon, or already released there might be more reason to suspect otherwise. As it stands, what else would they be releasing the incoming features for? A single HP handset that isn't released yet?
    Last edited by Drael646464; 06-10-2017 at 10:49 PM.
    06-10-2017 10:35 PM
  17. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    I just have a hard time believing the general public would be excited by the idea of running Win32 software (we won't have any meaningful continuum capable UWP apps for quite some time yet) from a phone sized package that still requires them to hook up a large monitor and keyboard. For most, that would surely seem like MS is just making things more complicated, compared to just using an ultrabook which already integrates all the required peripherals.

    I think the reception so far is further evidence that not many people are genuinely excited by the prospects of Continuum.

    Lastly, MS doesn't seem to think Continuum is of much interest to consumers either. They are marketing it towards enterprise customers.

    While Continuum is certainly a unique feature, I just don't see the mass market being interested in that capability, particularly not while it remains essentially a desktop computer in a small package. That's really not compatible with mass market needs.



    A killer feature is any disruptive technology or feature. A disruptive techology or feature is one that revolutionizes the market to which the technology is introduced, or it creates an entirely new market that didn't previously exist.

    When Apple released the first iPhone, it was the only pocketable device that allowed people to surf the web in a way that didn't make you want to kill yourself. That, combined with the touch interface made the iPhone uniquely useful and uniquely fool proof. It single handedly made smartphones a mass market phenomenon.

    The introduction of the graphical user interface was also a killer feature.

    There are a gazillion other examples but I'm sure you get the idea.
    So basically you see "killer feature" as a feature that's disruptive. That's not what "killer feature" means to me. To me it's a feature that's great on its own merits, not hinging upon people liking and using it. So fine, whatever. It's a 100% meaningless point to make, that CShell isn't a "killer feature", because the W10M market share is so low that the feature never ever meet your criteria without W10M reaching a sufficient market share.

    So really all you're doing is saying W10M has a small market share. Well, duh. Describing that isn't really particularly useful when talking about the intrinsic value of CShell.

    In addition to that you're wrong - in my opinion - about there being "a gazillion other examples" of "killer features" if a "killer feature" also has to be disruptive. If there are a gazillion disruptive features then there's more disruption than status quo. It's simply not a particularly logical way to look at it.

    it remains essentially a desktop computer in a small package. That's really not compatible with mass market needs.
    Yeah, you just described a smartphone. That's what it is; a computer in a small package with a screen. Is that what the mass market needs? It's what it uses daily. Whether or not people end up hooking it up to a terminal is a different issue.

    But again: What are the valid argument outside of needing more computation power, for paying for more than one powerful CPU? What's the appeal to you in paying a lot for a smart phone and then again paying a lot for a laptop??? Why would you do that if you don't have to?

    I just have a hard time believing the general public would be excited by the idea of running Win32 software (we won't have any meaningful continuum capable UWP apps for quite some time yet) from a phone sized package that still requires them to hook up a large monitor and keyboard.
    All that you need to solve the above nuisance - and that's really all it is, a nuisance - is to make the connection wireless. You can already cast continuum to a screen wirelessly, and MS was already working on making it possible to have continuum enable based on proximity.

    So, just give that some thought: Rather than paying several times for CPUs, one for you smart phone, one for you tablet, one for your laptop etc, you pay for a great CPU once, and then for "screens" you want (and keyboards if you want them). You can set your preference so that when you walk into your home your main device, the smartphone, automatically 'projects' onto your preferred device. Could be a wall mounted interactive TV with accompanying keyboard, or a super-thin super-light "laptop".

    No need to log in again or making sure there's network connectivity, because you already took care of that on your smartphone using biometric login. No need to sync data, because it's all running off of your one device (with OneDrive sync).

    All one has to do is watch sci-fi from the past couple of decades. It's all pointing towards smaller devices that are easier to carry, if at all. Portable computation devices take a backseat to interaction with input/output devices. Even the MS video posted here in one of the threads, the one that's a few years old, shows exactly that same future vision; where people walk up to a screen or glass pane and just "project" their experience onto that i/o device.

    And what is one of the practical problems getting such a fluid experience to work? It's exactly what CShell and continuum aims to solve.

    Lack of imagination = low adoption = no disruption =/= not killer features, in my book.
    06-10-2017 11:48 PM
  18. nate0's Avatar
    All that you need to solve the above nuisance - and that's really all it is, a nuisance - is to make the connection wireless. You can already cast continuum to a screen wirelessly, and MS was already working on making it possible to have continuum enable based on proximity.
    So, just give that some thought: Rather than paying several times for CPUs, one for you smart phone, one for you tablet, one for your laptop etc, you pay for a great CPU once, and then for "screens" you want (and keyboards if you want them). You can set your preference so that when you walk into your home your main device, the smartphone, automatically 'projects' onto your preferred device. Could be a wall mounted interactive TV with accompanying keyboard, or a super-thin super-light "laptop".
    No need to log in again or making sure there's network connectivity, because you already took care of that on your smartphone using biometric login. No need to sync data, because it's all running off of your one device (with OneDrive sync).
    I thought about that. If such a Windows device materializes it would be the "One" device for all computing needs...more or less...

    That would definitely be a consumer driven device.
    06-10-2017 11:53 PM
  19. Drael646464's Avatar
    So basically you see "killer feature" as a feature that's disruptive. That's not what "killer feature" means to me. To me it's a feature that's great on its own merits, not hinging upon people liking and using it. So fine, whatever. It's a 100% meaningless point to make, that CShell isn't a "killer feature", because the W10M market share is so low that the feature never ever meet your criteria without W10M reaching a sufficient market share.

    So really all you're doing is saying W10M has a small market share. Well, duh. Describing that isn't really particularly useful when talking about the intrinsic value of CShell.

    In addition to that you're wrong - in my opinion - about there being "a gazillion other examples" of "killer features" if a "killer feature" also has to be disruptive. If there are a gazillion disruptive features then there's more disruption than status quo. It's simply not a particularly logical way to look at it.



    Yeah, you just described a smartphone. That's what it is; a computer in a small package with a screen. Is that what the mass market needs? It's what it uses daily. Whether or not people end up hooking it up to a terminal is a different issue.

    But again: What are the valid argument outside of needing more computation power, for paying for more than one powerful CPU? What's the appeal to you in paying a lot for a smart phone and then again paying a lot for a laptop??? Why would you do that if you don't have to?



    All that you need to solve the above nuisance - and that's really all it is, a nuisance - is to make the connection wireless. You can already cast continuum to a screen wirelessly, and MS was already working on making it possible to have continuum enable based on proximity.

    So, just give that some thought: Rather than paying several times for CPUs, one for you smart phone, one for you tablet, one for your laptop etc, you pay for a great CPU once, and then for "screens" you want (and keyboards if you want them). You can set your preference so that when you walk into your home your main device, the smartphone, automatically 'projects' onto your preferred device. Could be a wall mounted interactive TV with accompanying keyboard, or a super-thin super-light "laptop".

    No need to log in again or making sure there's network connectivity, because you already took care of that on your smartphone using biometric login. No need to sync data, because it's all running off of your one device (with OneDrive sync).

    All one has to do is watch sci-fi from the past couple of decades. It's all pointing towards smaller devices that are easier to carry, if at all. Portable computation devices take a backseat to interaction with input/output devices. Even the MS video posted here in one of the threads, the one that's a few years old, shows exactly that same future vision; where people walk up to a screen or glass pane and just "project" their experience onto that i/o device.

    And what is one of the practical problems getting such a fluid experience to work? It's exactly what CShell and continuum aims to solve.

    Lack of imagination = low adoption = no disruption =/= not killer features, in my book.
    This is one of many issues with continuum going mainstream - price. So long as you can buy a cheap laptop or desktop, and a cheap phone, for less than just the one device, its not that useful as a feature. The phone also has to keep up with the desktop.

    I believe the true three in one tablet or phone requires thunderbolt 3, for external hdd, and gpu. And it needs to be cheapish, and have plenty of local storage AND run just like a desktop. I think we'll get there one day. And when we do, there will be some consumer value in it.

    Already there are folks in poor areas than now forgo multiple devices for phones. If they could, get a full PC experience for less cash, I'm sure that would appeal. But it needs to mainly be cheaper and truly PC like, for it to have that value. Not quite there yet. But it'll get there.
    06-11-2017 12:23 AM
  20. Drael646464's Avatar
    You can get a phone for 100 usd, a notebook or PC for 200 USD (both low end admittedly). Really to be successful a continuum phone and dock AND monitor/keyboard needs to be around 300-500 usd, as well as decent as a PC alternative.

    When that happens, and includes TB3 for the dock, and thats awhile off, I'm sure some consumers will see the value. Because the primary advantage of reducing device redundancy is price (there's also syncing etc, but price is primary)
    06-11-2017 12:34 AM
  21. anthonyng's Avatar
    I wonder how far back they thought about how to get to cshell today. Like at window 8.1? It's been a lot of little incremental steps along the way from our perspective, just wondering how much planning and adjustments they have been doing for cshell
    06-11-2017 02:24 AM
  22. Drael646464's Avatar
    I wonder how far back they thought about how to get to cshell today. Like at window 8.1? It's been a lot of little incremental steps along the way from our perspective, just wondering how much planning and adjustments they have been doing for cshell
    True, they've been talking about a single OS across devices since win10 was released, and that must have been in development for quite awhile. Presumably this whole plan goes back a long way, back to 8.1/rt days.
    06-11-2017 02:42 AM
  23. a5cent's Avatar
    I wonder how far back they thought about how to get to cshell today. Like at window 8.1? It's been a lot of little incremental steps along the way from our perspective, just wondering how much planning and adjustments they have been doing for cshell
    I agree with Drael. This has been on MS' roadmap for many years already. I don't know when MS decided Windows is to run on a wide range of form factors, but CShell was certainly already part of the feasibility study outlining how to achieve that goal.

    We see a lot of complaining about the constant WP/WM reboots, but from a technical perspective every version of WP/WM was a step in the exact same direction, with each major version systematically replacing parts of WP/WM with parts from full Windows. For me it's impossible to view that systematic and deliberate approach as a series of reboots. To my mind what people perceived as reboots were largely the result of economic considerations, not that this makes things any better unfortunately...
    mattiasnyc and Arquimaes like this.
    06-11-2017 05:55 AM
  24. Aamir Mustafa's Avatar
    it looks good so far but lot of enhancements and improvements should be brought into CShell
    06-11-2017 07:16 AM
  25. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    This is one of many issues with continuum going mainstream - price. So long as you can buy a cheap laptop or desktop, and a cheap phone, for less than just the one device, its not that useful as a feature. The phone also has to keep up with the desktop.
    I don't think that's logical.

    First of all, the phone having to "keep up with" a desktop is really only relevant to those creating content and using pretty heavy applications. For them "cheap" laptops and desktops won't apply to begin with, so the two alternatives aren't really valid. If you need a powerful desktop that provides more than a smartphone ever will then of course continuum won't help solve that problem. But neither will buying a cheap desktop.

    Secondly, even if you need a powerful laptop or desktop to do work there's a fair chance you still have more devices that effectively could act as merely i/o devices. Some people bought tablets when they became popular, but they already had a laptop and a smartphone and a TV... and maybe also a desktop. So clearly there are a lot of ways in which people consume, and a lot of it has to do more with convenience than actually having a need for all those devices' computational power.

    And so lastly, what I'm saying is that when smartphones can compute what you need them to compute - which is already the case for a lot of tasks - then the question isn't whether or not you can also buy a cheap laptop, the question is why you would buy a cheap laptop for X dollars when you can spend less and get the same experience.

    Basically you seem to be saying "Continuum is too expensive". I'll add that to just describing a lack of adoption and it being new technology rather than actually describing whether or not the technology in and by itself would be significant.

    I believe the true three in one tablet or phone requires thunderbolt 3, for external hdd, and gpu. And it needs to be cheapish, and have plenty of local storage AND run just like a desktop. I think we'll get there one day. And when we do, there will be some consumer value in it.
    Why would it need all of that? You have to look at what most people do on their computing devices. What are they doing that requires TB3, which has a massive bandwidth? It's never going to happen because mobile uses non-Intel chips to a large degree and Intel is sitting on the patent for TB, so they'll never release it cheaply enough for other manufacturers. More likely what we already have, USB-3.1 type-C is fine. Totally fine. External GPU is meaningless unless you're either creating content or gaming. For those duties we'll likely always have dedicated devices because the software that the devices drive keep pushing the need for more powerful cutting-edge devices. Won't ever fit in a smartphone or an external case.

    Most people do word processing, check email, run excel, stream content from YouTube and Netflix etc, browse the net etc. None of that is that CPU intensive. I even think we can do all of it using continuum today, possibly with the exception of Netflix. Either way processing power is hardly the issue I think. If it is I'm betting that the next gen Snapdragon will take care of it nicely.

    Already there are folks in poor areas than now forgo multiple devices for phones. If they could, get a full PC experience for less cash, I'm sure that would appeal. But it needs to mainly be cheaper and truly PC like, for it to have that value. Not quite there yet. But it'll get there.
    From what I can see it's actually a truly PC like experience. Multiple windows, a start menu, full-screen if you want it, input/output using a keyboard and mouse/trackball if you want it.... etc. What's not "PC like" about it?
    06-11-2017 11:19 AM
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