What do you think about the CShell?

[mmcpher]

Hope springs eternal and all that, but it would be nice to settle down and into an actual, dependable OS and just produce and not have to be waiting, waiting, waiting. . . . on promises, promises, promises. . . for rumors, leaks, alphas, betas, builds. . . . Always early adopting, never getting to a mature payoff. But CShell seems closer to the cross-platform integration ideal.

 

[nate0]

It's cool but I see no improvements to what W10M actually needs improving except for Continuum. Continuum looks great but they already let DeX beat them to windowing apps.

True, but DEX aint all that and a bag of chips yet either. I suppose though if it were a race Microsoft lost it a long time ago.

I read a post by a mod here in the forums explaining plainly what c-shell will be and do, and it is exactly what Microsoft needs to add to the formula in order to better equip their OS for the future.

 

[mikosoft]

It seems they really are pushing not only for one core but for one Windows that runs on anything. We've seen this with W10 for ARM and now Composable Shell that will adapt itself to any form factor.

That would actually be quite big as it would mean there is only one OS and only one app model for ANY device imaginable AND it could also run legacy Win32 apps.

Mobile device capable of this would blow anything else out of the water. And now with CShell and W10 on ARM demo this vision actually seems to come together in reality.

 

[Drael646464]

True, but DEX aint all that and a bag of chips yet either. I suppose though if it were a race Microsoft lost it a long time ago.

I read a post by a mod here in the forums explaining plainly what c-shell will be and do, and it is exactly what Microsoft needs to add to the formula in order to better equip their OS for the future.

Basically dex decided not to encourage UI compatibility and just lets apps run in "ugly mode". I don't think either continuum or dex are "there", any more than smart home assistants are "there" or vr is "there". We have a long way to go.

 

[Keith White Jr]

Sorry if someone already asked this, but, if the Elite X3 or Idol get CShell, wont we be able to spoof other W10M phones to also get it?

 

[Giorgos Michaelides]

I do not know about Cshell and Microsoft direction with mobile but what is needed to boost this OS is actuall functionality from OEM apps and developers. Common apps for cctv or automation around home and businesses are found lacking in W10 Mobile. Creston, Honeywell, Ademco has apps for IOs and Android. We don't get them and not only that no third party app is found to be compatible with anything either. Yes I am with Microsoft since day one my business envirmonemnt is Microsoft so I find it reasonable to remain in this OS.

Seriously though need to develop in the direction that matters and not just meaningless apps and or games which I found no pleasure having or using. Some attempts have failed and some were dropped, this is what bothers me. Simple thinks like my online banking is not available and two stage verification app cannot be used on W10 Mobile. Cshell or not give us the apps to feel like we belong somewhere and that developers don't just turn and walk away from W10 mobile. I am on the brink of mooving away after so long and so many hopes for something that was focused on the rest of us and not just be part of the croweded IOs and Android.

Dn't even let me go to car connectivity issues and interface compatibility...

 

[a5cent]

It seems they really are pushing not only for one core but for one Windows that runs on anything. We've seen this with W10 for ARM and now Composable Shell that will adapt itself to any form factor.

That would actually be quite big as it would mean there is only one OS and only one app model for ANY device imaginable AND it could also run legacy Win32 apps.

As long as Win32 and UWP both exist, we'll have two app models. As long as Win32 and UWP both exist, there will continue to be two completely different and incompatible ways of developing software. As long as Win32 and UWP exist, one part of the system will require users to have at least some IT skills and be vulnerable to user errors, while the other will largely administer itself and protect users from themselves. It's not really one OS. It's still two, just rolled up into one package. That's a more accurate way of thinking about it.

Only the versions of Windows without Win32 (like W10M) are really just one OS, with one app model, with one security model, with one API, etc.

 

[a5cent]

CShell is the Windows launcher. Making the launcher adapt to different screen sizes, so all of MS' various versions of Windows can use the same launcher rather than each having it's own, is a necessary next step. It will certainly make the Continuum experience more seamless than it is now, by providing users with more commonality and consistency across form factors. While that's a good thing, I don't see how it changes anything for MS in the consumer space. A more seamless Continuum experience is not the killer feature consumers have been waiting for. IMHO it is at most a necessary leg of the path MS must travel, but ultimately, not where MS needs to go.

 

[Drael646464]

CShell is the Windows launcher. Making the launcher adapt to different screen sizes, so all of MS' various versions of Windows can use the same launcher rather than each having it's own, is a necessary next step. It will certainly make the Continuum experience more seamless than it is now, by providing users with more commonality and consistency across form factors. While that's a good thing, I don't see how it changes anything for MS in the consumer space. A more seamless Continuum experience is not the killer feature consumers have been waiting for. IMHO it is at most a necessary leg of the path MS must travel, but ultimately, not where MS needs to go.

I could see some consumer use cases. There was talk of bringing the console UI to PC, and I think an entertainment focused PC shell could have its fans for TV boxes and the like. Likewise perhaps the PC UI could run on some consoles?

It would certainly also be useful for hybrid devices, although I agree these in themselves are not killer features average users are waiting for.

I think continuum would need to be cheap, have storage of a much higher level in phones, and perhaps thunderbolt docking, as well as some public recognition before it would even find niche application in the average user.

Although, that rumoured table projection could help a little.

 

[mikosoft]

Only the versions of Windows without Win32 (like W10M) are really just one OS, with one app model, with one security model, with one API, etc.

Yes, I do agree but supporting old app model is a necessary step as the UWP adoption is slow. MS needs to push for UWP adoption but I'd say slowly deprecating Win32 and adding new functionality to UWP is the best way. MS can no longer allow sudden changes like driver models in XP and Vista since MS no longer dominates OS space.

 

[a5cent]

Yes, I do agree but supporting old app model is a necessary step as the UWP adoption is slow. MS needs to push for UWP adoption but I'd say slowly deprecating Win32 and adding new functionality to UWP is the best way. MS can no longer allow sudden changes like driver models in XP and Vista since MS no longer dominates OS space.

Yeah, we agree. I had already suspected none of what I wrote was news to you. ;-)

I just think we must get people away from the idea that W10 is a single OS. That's a very widespread misconception, and posts like yours unintentionally strengthen it, because we too often conflate "single distribution" with "single OS". I've done it too... :-/

W10M is the only version of Windows for personal-computing that is really just a single OS. In retrospect, more people understanding that would have greatly aided in my attempts at explaining why W10M is not dead. I've since been proven right. Nobody at MS will confirm that W10M is being shuttered and development of W10M will continue. People still don't understand why though. It's not necessarily because MS want's to get back into the smartphone game (although it can't be ruled out either). It's primarily because W10M (on tablets, ultrabooks and phones) is the OS MS needs consumers to use, because it's the only version of Windows that is guaranteed to be free of the headaches caused by Win32 which will always prevent Windows from being popular with the average Joe. It's MS' only hope of permanently regaining ground in the consumer space where Windows must compete with simple-to-use mobile OSes.

 

[a5cent]

In regard to CShell:

All existing W10M devices are serviced off the second code branch. I don't think that will change, meaning I very much doubt any existing W10M device will ever get a version of W10M with CShell.

Any future W10M device, whether it's a smartphone or not, will get its version of W10M off the main branch (like existing W10M devices did up until three months ago). Those W10M devices will get CShell.

That is my prediction.

 

[nate0]

W10M is the only version of Windows for personal-computing that is really just a single OS. In retrospect, more people understanding that would have greatly aided in my attempts at explaining why W10M is not dead. I've since been proven right. Nobody at MS will confirm that W10M is being shuttered and development of W10M will continue. People still don't understand why though. It's not necessarily because MS want's to get back into the smartphone game (although it can't be ruled out either). It's primarily because W10M (on tablets, ultrabooks and phones) is the OS MS needs consumers to use, because it's the only version of Windows that is guaranteed to be free of the headaches caused by Win32 which will always prevent Windows from being popular with the average Joe. It's MS' only hope of permanently regaining ground in the consumer space where Windows must compete with simple-to-use mobile OSes.

This is why as a Windows Phone or W10M user, I continue to hold tight. I have rambled in my brain how many different models (versions/SKUs) of the W10 OS/W10M OS there are and why. W10M is by far going to be perfect for what you declared in the above statement. It is the only OS that runs only on ARM (for now), and is built for UWP only. It is secure enough for even enterprise. Which brings me to ask what is going on with the Enterprise version of W10M?

Seems only viable that Microsoft continues to nurture and refine W10M for the future of hw advancements. Much like W10 IoT will be needed many years into the future.

I still cannot figure out if some of what Microsoft is doing are attempts to stop the bleeding in areas they are hurting, or if they are intentional moves. The fact that not one mobile device (ARM) has been released from them in almost 2 years had a lot of impact for some folks. But their W10M OS has shown a ton of improvement over that time, so maybe there are trade offs.

 

[a5cent]

I still cannot figure out if some of what Microsoft is doing are attempts to stop the bleeding in areas they are hurting, or if they are intentional moves.

Yeah, that's a tough one. MS' has done a good job of sticking to the overarching strategy (OS unification, and CShell is part of that). However, MS completely failed at turning that good strategy into a successful market reality, which basiclly comes down to poor execution. At this point their tactical moves are almost all reactionary, largely reflecting MS' executives moving from one state of panic to another, being blown in which ever way market realities take them, while making every tactical decision from a position of weakness...

I have a feeling that a lot of the time, many MS employees are just as clueless about what they are doing as we are.

W10M is by far going to be perfect for what you declared in the above statement. It is the only OS that runs only on ARM (for now), and is built for UWP only. It is secure enough for even enterprise. Which brings me to ask what is going on with the Enterprise version of W10M?

Continuum is the only differentiator W10M has. Continuum can't be sold to consumers (at least not to the mass market), which is why W10M is being pitched as an enterprise solution instead. There is only one version of W10M, which is the enterprise version of W10M. We already all have it. That's why MS stopped trying to sell W10M to consumers all together. That's all there is to the whole "enterprise" angle.

On a side note, neither W10M or W10 are built for any specific CPU architecture. Those days are long over. MS can press a button and out comes W10 for x86. They can press a different button and out comes W10 for ARM. The same applies to W10M, i.e. W10M is not specifically built for ARM. The compiler is what does all the work to make software CPU specific. W10M can already run on x86, as it's just W10 with some stuff left out (mostly Win32). Platform specific drivers being available is the only thing the OS needs to be able to run. The big deal about W10oA is not that it runs on ARM (that has been possible for years already, e.g. Windows RT), but that it includes an x86 emulator. That's the only part in all of W10 that is not a driver but still specific to ARM.

 

[mattiasnyc]

A more seamless Continuum experience is not the killer feature consumers have been waiting for. IMHO it is at most a necessary leg of the path MS must travel, but ultimately, not where MS needs to go.

Not sure what "killer feature consumers have been waiting for" though. All I see when people criticize MS mobile is the lack of apps (and instability, but that's hardly unique to MS). I haven't hear much at all about some "killer feature" that users are looking for.

So, point being that while we can say that users aren't responding with a tremendous excitement to continuum that's possibly because of a lack of imagination on their part. Sure, the implementation of continuum specifically has been limited, but it shows a future that should be interesting to most people. Let me put it like this:

If Apple announced a feature that worked like continuum/cshell all the iPhone fans would go nuts. If MS does it nobody cares. I think that's pretty much it. There needs to be an awareness raised about what the technology does and intends to do. It's the awareness and understanding that can make users change their habits and make use of the technology. If they don't "get it" then of course it won't be used, and it won't be a "killer feature" either.

I think the broader consumer experience landscape that MS has hinted at is quite exciting actually. CShell, continuum, UWP etc all seem to play a key part in all of it. I can't wait for it to reach us consumers.

In regard to CShell:

All existing W10M devices are serviced off the second code branch. I don't think that will change, meaning I very much doubt any existing W10M device will ever get a version of W10M with CShell.

Well, didn't one of the guys here at Windowscentral show CShell running on the Elite x3 though? If it did then it must have either been developed on that code branch which should indicate it's not unlikely heading to mobile, or the two code branches aren't as separate as we might think they are (or, granted, it was built before the branching occurred).

 

[a5cent]

Well, didn't one of the guys here at Windowscentral show CShell running on the Elite x3 though? If it did then it must have either been developed on that code branch which should indicate it's not unlikely heading to mobile, or the two code branches aren't as separate as we might think they are (or, granted, it was built before the branching occurred).

I'd speculate the build for that demonstration on the x3 was simply created off the main W10 code branch. Up until a few months ago that is how it always worked. That build is just not something they'd want to release to the masses, as they'd have to ensure all their modifications haven't negatively affect W10M on the x3 or any other W10M device. The second branch was created, in part, to specifically avoid that regression-testing effort.

Consider also that MS initially demonstrating W10M on the L1520... a device that was never officially updated to W10M. IMHO this is the same thing with the x3 *.

* edit: this is not true. See below.

Don't take this too seriously though. It's probably the least well grounded of all my predictions on WCentral so far. ;-)

Not sure what "killer feature consumers have been waiting for" though. All I see when people criticize MS mobile is the lack of apps (and instability, but that's hardly unique to MS). I haven't hear much at all about some "killer feature" that users are looking for.

Killer features are generally developed under the radar. Consumers will usually have no idea they even want it until they see it for the first time. That's pretty much how every disruptive innovation was introduced to market. MS will not succeed in the mobile space if they can't bring that type of innovation to bare. They are too far behind to achieve success in any other way.

 

[chancooluk]

Originally posted by a5cent

Originally Posted by mattiasnyc
Well, didn't one of the guys here at Windowscentral show CShell running on the Elite x3 though? If it did then it must have either been developed on that code branch which should indicate it's not unlikely heading to mobile, or the two code branches aren't as separate as we might think they are (or, granted, it was built before the branching occurred).

I'd speculate the build for that demonstration on the x3 was simply created off the main W10 code branch. Up until a few months ago that is how it always worked. That build is just not something they'd want to release to the masses, as they'd have to ensure all their modifications haven't negatively affect W10M on the x3 or any other W10M device. The second branch was created, in part, to specifically avoid that regression-testing effort.

Consider also that MS initially demonstrating W10M on the L1520... a device that was never officially updated to W10M. IMHO this is the same thing with the x3.

Don't take this too seriously though. It's probably the least well grounded of all my predictions on WCentral so far. ;-)

The 1520 did officially get W10M, up to Anniversary Update, but was not included in the Creators Update.

 

[mattiasnyc]

Killer features are generally developed under the radar. Consumers will usually have no idea they even want it until they see it for the first time. That's pretty much how every disruptive innovation was introduced to market. MS will not succeed in the mobile space if they can't bring that type of innovation to bare. They are too far behind to achieve success in any other way.

Ok, so what is a killer feature for you then, and how do you know a seamless fully functional continuum experience isn't a killer feature for the general public?

 

[a5cent]

...and how do you know a seamless fully functional continuum experience isn't a killer feature for the general public?

I just have a hard time believing the general public would be excited by the idea of running Win32 software (we won't have any meaningful continuum capable UWP apps for quite some time yet) from a phone sized package that still requires them to hook up a large monitor and keyboard. For most, that would surely seem like MS is just making things more complicated, compared to just using an ultrabook which already integrates all the required peripherals.

I think the reception so far is further evidence that not many people are genuinely excited by the prospects of Continuum.

Lastly, MS doesn't seem to think Continuum is of much interest to consumers either. They are marketing it towards enterprise customers.

While Continuum is certainly a unique feature, I just don't see the mass market being interested in that capability, particularly not while it remains essentially a desktop computer in a small package. That's really not compatible with mass market needs.

Ok, so what is a killer feature for you then,

A killer feature is any disruptive technology or feature. A disruptive techology or feature is one that revolutionizes the market to which the technology is introduced, or it creates an entirely new market that didn't previously exist.

When Apple released the first iPhone, it was the only pocketable device that allowed people to surf the web in a way that didn't make you want to kill yourself. That, combined with the touch interface made the iPhone uniquely useful and uniquely fool proof. It single handedly made smartphones a mass market phenomenon.

The introduction of the graphical user interface was also a killer feature.

There are a gazillion other examples but I'm sure you get the idea.

 

[a5cent]

The 1520 did officially get W10M, up to Anniversary Update, but was not included in the Creators Update.

You're right. Sorry. I had gotten rid of mine by the time the update finally hit the L1520. My bad.