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07-22-2017 08:54 AM
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  1. vicky vyaasan's Avatar
    What ever they create, they must support the creation. Lumia phones are awesome creation of Microsoft. They must bring revolution on it. I'll wait for that time.....
    Kot Prada likes this.
    06-28-2017 02:42 AM
  2. tgp's Avatar
    Source?

    Most people use 6 apps on the regular (according to a study referenced on the front page here), so "many" even if this is true, seems unlikely. There aren't even "many" bb10 or windows phone users, but if any large proportion of them returned their phones due to apps, I'd like to here some proof of that.

    From what I can tell the app situation is not as dire as people often make out. In early 7/8 days there was quite a lot of interest generated in Silverlight apps, xap. Then as that faded, and those people fell off, devs have started to get interested in UWP.
    You're new here aren't you?

    Lack of apps has been probably Windows mobile's biggest Achilles Heel. @Laura Knotek is correct. In order to market a product successfully, you need to have something to market.
    libra89, Laura Knotek and dgr_874 like this.
    06-28-2017 06:59 AM
  3. Drael646464's Avatar
    You're new here aren't you?

    Lack of apps has been probably Windows mobile's biggest Achilles Heel. @Laura Knotek is correct. In order to market a product successfully, you need to have something to market.
    I didn't dispute apps for marketability. indeed I agreed with that, I disputed "many people returned their phones because of lack of apps", which seems on the face of it, quite unlikely and should be very easy to prove.

    You are welcome to provide proof of that claim if you are aware of any.

    "Many returns" is a market statistic. People follow and track those things. I am applying scepticism and I will continue to question when people make, what appear to be questionable statements of fact, without providing supporting evidence.

    I don't see this forum as a "chorus of uniform and fixed opinions" at all, as far as my call for scepticism goes being attributed to 'being new here'. I see a few people present that to me, when I have an opinion or perspective differing from their own (which here, is only by shades), as if, everyone who has been here for awhile was in constant agreement about things, and I think that's quite misrepresentative of the diversity of opinion and backgrounds on this forum. There are certainly some frequent posters who agree, but there appears to be quite a bit of difference of POV on all matters, with regular posters who have been here for a very long time. This topic included.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 06-28-2017 at 08:50 AM.
    fin11 likes this.
    06-28-2017 08:05 AM
  4. pkcable's Avatar
    Apps? Not marketing (it's absence actually)?
    Fair point! lol
    06-28-2017 01:24 PM
  5. TgeekB's Avatar
    Fair point! lol
    It's certainly both, but you have to have something to market that people want. The lack of apps makes it unappealing to the majority of users. That may turn around in time if things go right with the current strategy, but that is down the road.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    06-28-2017 01:43 PM
  6. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    Exactly. This is not an argument about whether apps are necessary or not for an OS to work, its about the necessity of apps for an operating system to flourish under the current market.
    Wonder when this situation will change


    Unfortunately, the lack of apps inhibits the ability to market devices. Many consumers bought Windows and BlackBerry 10 phones, only to return them when apps they needed were missing.
    If consumers would have instead raised their voices to demand the apps be developed, things might have been different - or I'm just having wishful thinking
    pkcable and libra89 like this.
    06-28-2017 01:47 PM
  7. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    Sometimes I feel what happens with this, is people with niche needs, like smart home enthusiast, or professional photographers, or constant business travellers, start to feel like their experience is typical of everyone elses. There are certainly people for whom win10 is a bad fit, and there are things missing, but for the average person, I don't think that's true.
    Well said
    06-28-2017 01:50 PM
  8. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    Except, even the "average person" apps don't hold a candle to their counterparts on other operating systems. For example, Facebook is used by 2 billion people every month. I'd call that an app that undoubtedly average people appear to be using. The Facebook and Messenger apps on W10 are painful to use, in my opinion. WhatsApp is sunsetting this week. Lots of average people use that too. I would say that, based on what is selling in the smartphone market, average mobile users overwhelmingly like and use iOS and Android.
    06-28-2017 02:07 PM
  9. tgp's Avatar
    There are certainly people for whom win10 is a bad fit, and there are things missing, but for the average person, I don't think that's true.
    If W10M (if this is what you meant by win10) wasn't a bad fit, we wouldn't have users leaving it in droves. And it's not just lack of marketing, because if it was, existing users wouldn't be leaving. If it isn't a bad fit, it's at least a worse fit than the alternatives. I think your line above is more accurate if we modify it a bit and say that There are certainly people for whom win10 isn't a bad fit, and there aren't things missing, but for the average person, I don't think that's true.

    I don't want to sound like a stuck record, but we have "been there and done that". By your own admission, you haven't. Your posts are the same thing we've been reading ad nauseam here for the last several years. There is all kinds of logic that would say you are correct, but unfortunately real life has shown otherwise.

    We'll wait and see. What else can we do?
    06-28-2017 02:16 PM
  10. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    "Many returns" is a market statistic. People follow and track those things. I am applying scepticism and I will continue to question when people make, what appear to be questionable statements of fact, without providing supporting evidence.
    From my own experiences, and this is quite a limited experience, people in my country bought windows phones/mobile and used them as long as they wanted to. I rarely if ever saw anyone returning a phone after a week or so. Just about everyone I know kept them until they either got more money to buy a new phone or the current broke down completely. And I mean completely - there's a guy I know who still uses the phone even thought you can see inside it

    A mobile phone is an investment - that's the mindset here and people don't like just returning it immediately just because it has snapchat missing? They'll continue using it until they feel they can afford another one. And if they do buy a new phone? They donate the phone to someone else, younger sibling or niece/nephew
    06-28-2017 02:30 PM
  11. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Wonder when this situation will change




    If consumers would have instead raised their voices to demand the apps be developed, things might have been different - or I'm just having wishful thinking
    There have been many threads over the years asking for users to request apps. Many of us have indeed done that, but the companies aren't interested. I requested apps from my bank and pharmacy for years, to no avail.
    tgp, Scienceguy Labs and libra89 like this.
    06-28-2017 02:31 PM
  12. pkcable's Avatar
    These are interesting times indeed!

    One thing to remember about Microsoft, is they do SO much more than just phones, in fact phones are VERY small potatoes to them, PC software and such is their bread and butter!
    06-28-2017 02:33 PM
  13. tgp's Avatar
    There have been many threads over the years asking for users to request apps. Many of us have indeed done that, but the companies aren't interested. I requested apps from my bank and pharmacy for years, to no avail.
    Indeed, there was no lack of clamoring for apps. Microsoft even paid for some apps, which were later abandoned, evidently after the contract was fulfilled.
    06-28-2017 02:50 PM
  14. PerfectReign's Avatar
    These are interesting times indeed!

    One thing to remember about Microsoft, is they do SO much more than just phones, in fact phones are VERY small potatoes to them, PC software and such is their bread and butter!
    Yeah but they know that is only for so long. I currently pay about $150k per year to MS for desktop support and probably $400k more for server and developer support. However that revenue will eventually morph into something with IoT.
    Scienceguy Labs likes this.
    06-28-2017 03:57 PM
  15. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    These are interesting times indeed!

    One thing to remember about Microsoft, is they do SO much more than just phones, in fact phones are VERY small potatoes to them, PC software and such is their bread and butter!
    But, unfortunately, their grasp on the software front is being overtaken or simply beaten in two key areas: Education and Mobile. If young people are being exposed to Apple and Android throughout their elementary, middle, and high school years, they will have learned how to be productive using those environments. Once in college or in the work force, they will have no need to use Microsoft software unless they go into a specialized field that was built around it. These fields are everywhere now, but new industries in the next 20 years or so might be built using what today's young people are familiar with....iOS and Android. It is a must that they capture widespread youth appeal if they want to remain at the top of the software hill in the future. They need "cool", viral apps and mobile products. Doing things like announcing the Hololens 5 years before normal people can get their hands on it is not going to cut it.
    06-28-2017 04:08 PM
  16. Drael646464's Avatar
    If W10M (if this is what you meant by win10) wasn't a bad fit, we wouldn't have users leaving it in droves. And it's not just lack of marketing, because if it was, existing users wouldn't be leaving. If it isn't a bad fit, it's at least a worse fit than the alternatives. I think your line above is more accurate if we modify it a bit and say that There are certainly people for whom win10 isn't a bad fit, and there aren't things missing, but for the average person, I don't think that's true.

    I don't want to sound like a stuck record, but we have "been there and done that". By your own admission, you haven't. Your posts are the same thing we've been reading ad nauseam here for the last several years. There is all kinds of logic that would say you are correct, but unfortunately real life has shown otherwise.

    We'll wait and see. What else can we do?
    Also not sure if this is true either. It's a common assumption, but does it match reality? IDK.

    This may well be, at least in part, a conflation of personal experience, as I suggested, and also the conflation of marketshare with installed userbase.

    comScore measured 2.7 percent userbase in the US, last year, when the marketshare was like now, well below 1 percent. There a lot of people on here with older 8.1 phones, and the newer Lumia's are over two years old, with no new phones available. The only phones still available are the 4s, which is afaik still US only, and the x3.

    It's pretty hard to have a marketshare without substaintive new handsets. Certainly I am not saying some people haven't left. Certainly those who like new and shiny, will have probably moved on. But I think the number of people actually still using windows phones is frequently underestimated.
    06-28-2017 08:29 PM
  17. Drael646464's Avatar
    Wonder when this situation will change




    If consumers would have instead raised their voices to demand the apps be developed, things might have been different - or I'm just having wishful thinking
    I'm pretty convinced windows on arm will impact WoA adoption. It's pretty obvious if you think about it.

    *People will buy windows tablets and notebooks with WoA - because instant on, slimmer forms, longer battery, built in high speed LTE, GPS etc. The userbase for this will be vastly larger than win10m.
    *Those people will find win32 and centennial apps to not scale as well, not have live tiles, not give proper notifications and also vastly underperform next to UWP apps (at least 70 percent slower, but also sometimes even slower than that, depending on the app). Whether they know the actual difference or not between how these apps work, UWP versus Win32, their UX will be worse on win32 and better on native apps. Tablet users and notebook users are more likely to prefer dedicated apps anyway. This will effect user feedback, and user purchasing.
    *The built in GPS, always on LTE, instant on, and ability to receive notifications will lend itself more to mobility apps - banking, chat, share economies. This may also motivate iOS app makers to port their apps.

    Windows on arm will be way bigger than windows s. Notebooks are the fastest growing segment of PCs, and windows tablets the fastest growing segment of tablets - together, a pretty sizeable userbase.

    But on the other side we have windows s, encouraging people across to centennial, foot in the door style. It's almost a herding technique.
    Kot Prada likes this.
    06-28-2017 08:35 PM
  18. Drael646464's Avatar
    Except, even the "average person" apps don't hold a candle to their counterparts on other operating systems. For example, Facebook is used by 2 billion people every month. I'd call that an app that undoubtedly average people appear to be using. The Facebook and Messenger apps on W10 are painful to use, in my opinion. WhatsApp is sunsetting this week. Lots of average people use that too. I would say that, based on what is selling in the smartphone market, average mobile users overwhelmingly like and use iOS and Android.
    Well, yes FB is a POS. That's really about the only one, and I readily admit that its horrible. There are fortunately some good alternatives (a veritable sea of them).

    WhatsApp is being sunsetted? That's news to me. I get no notification of it, in the app? Lol, that's silly timing, if true, considering whats coming this year. That will absolutely want a UWP.
    Scienceguy Labs and Kot Prada like this.
    06-28-2017 08:37 PM
  19. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    Well, yes FB is a POS. That's really about the only one, and I readily admit that its horrible. There are fortunately some good alternatives (a veritable sea of them).

    WhatsApp is being sunsetted? That's news to me. Lol, that's silly timing, considering whats coming this year. That will absolutely want a UWP.
    I think I'm wrong about WhatsApp. There was a big one on the news this week, but I can't remember.

    Edit:. It was Evernote. Not too sure how big that one was.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-28-2017 08:42 PM
  20. tgp's Avatar
    Also not sure if this is true either. It's a common assumption, but does it match reality? IDK.

    <snip>

    comScore measured 2.7 percent userbase in the US, last year, when the marketshare was like now, well below 1 percent.
    Well, if Windows phone's market share in the United States was 2.7% in 2016, then it dropped. In February 2017, comScore reported it at 1.5%.
    06-28-2017 09:00 PM
  21. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I think I'm wrong about WhatsApp. There was a big one on the news this week, but I can't remember.

    Edit:. It was Evernote. Not too sure how big that one was.
    Here's an article with some statistics about Evernote. http://expandedramblings.com/index.p...te-statistics/
    06-28-2017 09:08 PM
  22. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    Thanks, Laura. I had no idea that Evernote was so huge.
    06-28-2017 09:40 PM
  23. PerfectReign's Avatar
    That's crazy! I used to be an evernote user before switching to OneDrive

    I wrote on my blog in 2014 that they had 100M users

    http://www.perfectreign.com/2014/05/...te-100m-users/
    06-28-2017 09:45 PM
  24. Drael646464's Avatar
    Well, if Windows phone's market share in the United States was 2.7% in 2016, then it dropped. In February 2017, comScore reported it at 1.5%.
    So it has. That's almost half. Well then you are right, people are leaving in droves.

    Hard to say its all specifically for apps though. Could be that they just want new devices and their aren't any. Or a combination.

    It appears like thing really started dropping off in marketshare, around when MSFT killed nokia. So there must be some connection there between, devices, and userbase too.

    After all there are as many new UWP apps coming to the platform, as there are mobility app makers ditching the platform. I wrote a blog the other day on top games for the platform. Over 90% of them were all UWP. A lot of apps these days are UWP too (like productivity or photo editing apps)

    The ones that are leaving are the ones that came earlier in the piece with Silverlight/xap, and see the platform as being about win10m, versus the ones that are coming in, who see UWP as the future app platform for windows - slightly different use scenarios with the userbase too admittedly: Desktop users don't have much use for snapchat or banking apps.

    Perhaps that's a factor in the leaving as well though. Just hard to know exactly what all the prevailing factors are without some kind of formal survey.
    tgp, Laura Knotek and Kot Prada like this.
    06-28-2017 09:52 PM
  25. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    Nice blog. I'm visiting it now. :)
    Thanks for sharing.

    Sent from mTalk
    06-28-2017 09:56 PM
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