09-14-2018 10:49 AM
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  1. Pacus1x's Avatar
    I don't think MS will risk to launch a limited niche device with the potential of bad publicity no matter if the device is great, the stench of failure around the mobile experiments of MS is very strong.
    08-05-2018 12:36 PM
  2. eshropshire's Avatar
    If they charge $900 then it will sell like, well, Windows Phones.
    I have no idea why people on this thread keep talking about a sub $1K cost. This is going to be an expensive device, with the most expensive screen tech ever on a device. Considering the cost estimates currently floating around for the Galaxy X, this device will be in the same cost range.
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    08-05-2018 10:37 PM
  3. Kevin Rush's Avatar
    The number of signatures is over 20,000. Signing does no harm and might do some good.
    08-30-2018 06:45 AM
  4. eshropshire's Avatar
    The number of signatures is over 20,000. Signing does no harm and might do some good.
    20K signatures helps the team trying to determine the viability. Unfortunately not in the way the petition is intended. The petition would need at least 500K and possibly 2x that number to get Microsoft's attention.
    09-10-2018 09:49 PM
  5. Timbre70's Avatar
    Don't think it will even bother with 1 million signatures.
    09-10-2018 11:23 PM
  6. drtek's Avatar
    Microsoft has said telephony capabilities. They have also said it is not a phone. Telephony could just be the ability to make calls over LTE.

    Also, no petitions in business decisions don't matter. Maybe if 5÷ million signed it, but even then I doubt MS would care. Last word I heard the potential high cost of manufacturing is a big challenge.
    If you had 5 million who used Windows phone, it would still be available.
    09-11-2018 12:46 AM
  7. eshropshire's Avatar
    If you had 5 million who used Windows phone, it would still be available.
    Very true. I still have a hard time understanding the use case of having a low power Windows ARM in my pocket. With my Android phone I can run all of the MS software I need in my pocket, Office, One Note, email and access key services. Items I need to run on my notebook I hve heavy memory, space and processing requirements. I don't need them at my fingertips 24x7. I do need what I have on my Note 8 and when traveling seldom do I even turn on my laptop. I can do my work from my phone.

    From the backroom chatter I hear this is the challenge the Andromeda team is facing. Finding a viable use case for a device that will be very expensive. I laugh at the $1,000 fantasy cost estimates. The current low estimates for the Samsung Galaxy X are around $1,800 and they have lower system requirements and a much lower cost supply chain.
    09-11-2018 11:03 AM
  8. Kevin Rush's Avatar
    20K signatures helps the team trying to determine the viability. Unfortunately not in the way the petition is intended. The petition would need at least 500K and possibly 2x that number to get Microsoft's attention.
    I would think that Microsoft is smart enough to realize that most people don't vote, for anything, ever. Only a very few even speak up. I would guess that the number of people even aware of this petition is miniscule. You sad sacks make it sound like there are only 20,000 votes out of 7.5 billion world population. It's not like voting costs you money. I'm hoping Microsoft knows that the "it's hopeless to vote" mentality is also at work to keep some people from voting.

    I stand by my comment. If you know what the Microsoft Mobile experience is, and like it. I think you should go and vote, no harm done, no expense involved, and the nay sayers won't know. You will have done, what you can, to support what you like.
    09-11-2018 06:57 PM
  9. TgeekB's Avatar
    I would think that Microsoft is smart enough to realize that most people don't vote, for anything, ever. Only a very few even speak up. I would guess that the number of people even aware of this petition is miniscule. You sad sacks make it sound like there are only 20,000 votes out of 7.5 billion world population. It's not like voting costs you money. I'm hoping Microsoft knows that the "it's hopeless to vote" mentality is also at work to keep some people from voting.

    I stand by my comment. If you know what the Microsoft Mobile experience is, and like it. I think you should go and vote, no harm done, no expense involved, and the nay sayers won't know.
    No harm done and no affect on what MS will do.
    Do whatever you want.
    09-11-2018 07:01 PM
  10. eshropshire's Avatar
    I would think that Microsoft is smart enough to realize that most people don't vote, for anything, ever. Only a very few even speak up. I would guess that the number of people even aware of this petition is miniscule. You sad sacks make it sound like there are only 20,000 votes out of 7.5 billion world population. It's not like voting costs you money. I'm hoping Microsoft knows that the "it's hopeless to vote" mentality is also at work to keep some people from voting.

    I stand by my comment. If you know what the Microsoft Mobile experience is, and like it. I think you should go and vote, no harm done, no expense involved, and the nay sayers won't know. You will have done, what you can, to support what you like.
    I have worked in the Tech world for over 30 years and continue to work in the Tech industry. I have many good friends at Microsoft including one General Manager and several VPs. I know very well how Microsoft makes decisions. I am tongue and cheek about the petition. I laugh at these forums when every I hear people propose a petition.

    Microsoft spends a lot of dollars on not only R&D but also on market research. They also need a business justification for products. One of the biggest problems Microsoft had in the last 5 plus years under Balmer was his unwillingness to listen. He believed Microsoft was too big to fail in any market if they spent enough money.

    The wild west days of throwing money away at Microsoft are over. The new culture is producing amazing results. The only way Andromeda is going to see the light of day will be if Microsoft's leadership is confident the product will sell. The backroom chatter is the leadership is not convinced.
    TgeekB and dellaster like this.
    09-11-2018 08:30 PM
  11. naddy6969's Avatar
    “The number of signatures is over 20,000. Signing does no harm and might do some good“

    Dream on. 20,000 or 200,000 would not even be enough for Wileyfox to produce another crappy Windows phone.

    “The wild west days of throwing money away at Microsoft are over“

    I would say they are over at most tech companies. You can only survive on hype for so long. Eventually you have to actually be profitable.

    “The backroom chatter is the leadership is not convinced”

    For good reason. Windows’ glory days are way in the past. A $1,500 “mini foldable hybrid tablet always connected Windows PC with a cell phone built into its case” running Windows 10 is not going to sell.

    “You sad sacks make it sound like there are only 20,000 votes out of 7.5 billion world population”

    Um, that’s EXACTLY what has happened. There are 20,000 signatures. World population is 7.5 billion. Spin it however helps you sleep at night.

    If there was actually a huge, pent-up demand for “Full Windows In Your Pocket” there would be way more than 20,000 signatures.

    The fact is, no one cares. Everyone is busy using their Android and Apple phones.
    Last edited by naddy6969; 09-11-2018 at 10:32 PM.
    TgeekB and dellaster like this.
    09-11-2018 10:16 PM
  12. Adventurer64's Avatar
    Nothing wrong with niche products. Plus, not everyone wants to follow the herd and apparently there's at least 20,000 of us sad sacks. As hardware improves further, I'm confident full Windows PC's will find there way back in our pockets.
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    09-12-2018 08:22 PM
  13. Kevin Rush's Avatar
    Nothing wrong with niche products. Plus, not everyone wants to follow the herd and apparently there's at least 20,000 of us sad sacks. As hardware improves further, I'm confident full Windows PC's will find there way back in our pockets.
    I thank you for your comment. My opinion is no great leap. I think computers will continue to get smaller and will continue to do more (including telephony) and thus will eventually fit in our pockets.

    Respectfully, I would like to clarify that my comment about "sad sacks". It was directed at people who claim they know, for sure, the future, and they know for certain, it doesn't include anything Microsoft and Mobile. They always mention the masses of crowds have rejected it. I think, time will tell. There is a book about the "ignorance of following crowds".

    There are lots of successful niche products. Was the Mac considered a niche product when it was 3% market share?

    Just my opinions.

    Best Wishes
    09-12-2018 11:12 PM
  14. eshropshire's Avatar
    Nothing wrong with niche products. Plus, not everyone wants to follow the herd and apparently there's at least 20,000 of us sad sacks. As hardware improves further, I'm confident full Windows PC's will find there way back in our pockets.
    If Steve Ballmer was still the CEO he would agree with you. The profitable, growing Microsoft does not. The Board I am sure was clear with Nadella no more HW write offs.
    09-12-2018 11:19 PM
  15. Kevin Rush's Avatar
    If Steve Ballmer was still the CEO he would agree with you. The profitable, growing Microsoft does not. The Board I am sure was clear with Nadella no more HW write offs.
    The "corporate raider strategy" has been proven to work in the short term. No question. We'll have to see what the damage is, long term, if any. It will be interesting to watch.
    Best Wishes
    09-12-2018 11:32 PM
  16. tgp's Avatar
    There are lots of successful niche products. Was the Mac considered a niche product when it was 3% market share?
    The market share doesn't matter as much as if the product makes a profit. For the most part, all businesses everywhere exist to make a profit: nothing more, nothing less. They'll fall all over themselves producing something with 0.00000000001% market share if it is profitable. They'll quit producing something with 99.9999999999% market share if it is losing money.
    TgeekB likes this.
    09-12-2018 11:42 PM
  17. eshropshire's Avatar
    The "corporate raider strategy" has been proven to work in the short term. No question. We'll have to see what the damage is, long term, if any. It will be interesting to watch.
    Best Wishes
    Microsoft's current strategy is to focus on the long term profitable areas and leave the low to negative margin markets like smartphones. Microsoft had to choose between selling profitable products and and high growth services to 100% of the market or loose out on the future of tech because their ego was too big to abandon a very unprofitable market.

    Ballmer was shown the door because his strategy had no path to success in moving Microsoft into the modern technology world. They misled out of the smartphone business by sitting around too long with ancient technology (win 6.5) spending billions only lost MS billions. Now they are moving on so they don't get passed again. You do not need to own the platform to be successful in Mobile.
    TgeekB likes this.
    09-13-2018 06:24 PM
  18. Kevin Rush's Avatar
    The market share doesn't matter as much as if the product makes a profit. For the most part, all businesses everywhere exist to make a profit: nothing more, nothing less. They'll fall all over themselves producing something with 0.00000000001% market share if it is profitable. They'll quit producing something with 99.9999999999% market share if it is losing money.
    Hi tgp,
    So do I understand your comment to admit the Mac is/was a niche product and further claiming that it was/is profitable? I don't know all the facts, but I do know that Microsoft (Bill Gates) helped them out when Apple was struggling. Again, I don't now every fact but it seems Apple hung in there, continued to develope it's software/hardware and eventually struck gold with the iPhone. Times change, I guess. Apple persevered, and rightly so. In my opinion Microsoft should do the same regarding smaller and smaller form factors with more and more features, including telephony. Just my thoughts.
    Last edited by Kevin Rush; 09-13-2018 at 09:07 PM.
    09-13-2018 08:18 PM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    Hi tgp,
    So do I understand your comment to admit the Mac is/was a niche product and further claiming that it was/is profitable? I don't know all the facts, but I do know that Microsoft (Bill Gates) helped them out when Apple was struggling. Again, I don't now every fact but it seems Apple hung in there, continued to develope it's software and eventually struck gold with the iPhone. Times change, I guess. Apple persevered, and rightly so.
    That was the 1980’s. You certainly don’t think the technology market is the same in 2018?
    Even so, Steve Jobs did much like what MS is doing; he cut projects that were bleeding money and focused on developing innovative business models such as iTunes, the iPod, the iPhone, the App Store, etc. This brought revenue to the company and helped it become the giant it is today.
    Companies cannot continue to bleed money in products that don’t bring revenue.
    09-13-2018 08:32 PM
  20. Kevin Rush's Avatar
    That was the 1980’s. You certainly don’t think the technology market is the same in 2018?
    Even so, Steve Jobs did much like what MS is doing; he cut projects that were bleeding money and focused on developing innovative business models such as iTunes, the iPod, the iPhone, the App Store, etc. This brought revenue to the company and helped it become the giant it is today.
    Companies cannot continue to bleed money in products that don’t bring revenue.
    Hi TgeekBe,
    May I ask, are you saying that we should or that we shouldn't learn from history (1980's)? Is history useless because times have changed, or are there possibly lessons we should/could learn? To clarify the obvious, no, I don't think the 1980s are the same as 2018.

    I get it, you don't want companies to continue to waste money on products that don't bring in revenue "today" (my word). Okay, I hear you. Let me think about that.

    Best Wishes
    09-13-2018 09:24 PM
  21. TgeekB's Avatar
    Hi TgeekBe,
    May I ask, are you saying that we should or that we shouldn't learn from history (1980's)? Is history useless because times have changed, or are there possibly lessons we should/could learn? To clarify the obvious, no, I don't think the 1980s are the same as 2018.

    I get it, you don't want companies to continue to waste money on products that don't bring in revenue "today" (my word). Okay, I hear you. Let me think about that.

    Best Wishes
    What I am saying is there are many variables that go into decisions regarding such large undertakings. We’re not talking about you or I deciding whether we should spend a few hundred dollars on a smartphone, we are talking about millions of dollars or more. As fans it’s easy for us to say they should do this or that. It’s not our money. Shareholders have a completely different viewpoint.

    There has to be a product. There has to be a market. There has to be a profit. Remember, Apple was a computer company that, as you correctly pointed out, needed assistance to survive. If they hadn’t changed course I really don’t think they would exist today. It was the the change to mobile (ipod, iPhone, Apple watch, etc.) along with music and apps that forged them forward. Microsoft is in the same mode of deciding which future direction will be best for them.
    09-14-2018 07:09 AM
  22. tgp's Avatar
    Hi tgp,
    So do I understand your comment to admit the Mac is/was a niche product and further claiming that it was/is profitable? I don't know all the facts, but I do know that Microsoft (Bill Gates) helped them out when Apple was struggling. Again, I don't now every fact but it seems Apple hung in there, continued to develope it's software/hardware and eventually struck gold with the iPhone. Times change, I guess. Apple persevered, and rightly so. In my opinion Microsoft should do the same regarding smaller and smaller form factors with more and more features, including telephony. Just my thoughts.
    I'm not sure I would call the Mac a "niche" product. They are fairly common. Is there a market share percentage that defines something as "niche"?

    There are some products that are worth sticking it out because profitability is expected at some point. My guess is that in the case of Windows phone, Microsoft didn't see that coming, ever. Hence they dropped it. They hung on with xBox, Bing, and probably some other products. With Windows phone, it was never going to happen.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    09-14-2018 10:49 AM
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