10-20-2014 12:38 PM
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  1. a5cent's Avatar
    They said no integrated flash or are we speculating? I wasn't aware they really went into the differences so far.
    You picked out the one point (flash support) I am speculating on. I'm not speculating about any of the others. I just don't see where that admission gets you. It doesn't change anything about the larger point.

    If you want to criticise or doubt the point I'm trying to make, the best way to do so would be by asking the question: "how similar must two OSes be, for them to correctly be called the same OS." I'm not aware of there being just one generally accepted definition.

    Most definitions state that for two OSes to be considered "the same", they must at least be capable of running the same software. W10 and W10 (for mobile devices) can't do that.

    I think most would agree with that partial definition, but for marketing reasons MS are deviating from it. IMHO that has not always furthered peoples understanding, particularly not for enthusiast/technically minded people like those who visit this site. I'd say it has confused more than helped, which is why I'm trying to clear up those misconceptions. Is that such a bad thing?
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-19-2014 at 11:24 AM.
    10-19-2014 10:49 AM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    It's mostly pure speculation thus far since the only thing we got out of Windows 10 was that presentation and the preview for enterprise/IT Pro

    As a courtesy, you might want to wait for me to answer, as I'm sure you don't know which parts of everyone's posts are speculation and which aren't.
    10-19-2014 10:53 AM
  3. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    You picked out the one point (flash support) I am speculating on. I'm not speculating about any of the others. I just don't see where that admission gets you. It doesn't change anything about the larger point.

    If you want to criticise or doubt the point I'm trying to make, the best way to do so would be by asking the question: "how similar must two OSes be, for them to correctly be called the same OS." I'm not aware of there being just one generally accepted definition.

    Most definitions state that for two OSes to be considered "the same", they must at least be capable of running the same software. W10 and W10 (for mobile devices) can't do that.

    I think most would agree with that partial definition, but for marketing reasons MS are deviating from it. IMHO that has not always furthered peoples understanding, particularly not for enthusiast/technically minded people like those who visit this site. I'd say it has confused more than helped, which is why I'm trying to clear up those misconceptions. Is that such a bad thing?
    No, I simply want to ask questions. It's obvious that your "millions of things" is hyperbolic at best. Your speculation on everything here might, and probably will, be true. The mobile SKU might have none of those things. I doubt that it will have a desktop, for example. So, please, don't get snippy simply because I asked a question and thought you might have some proof of something that I don't know.
    10-19-2014 04:14 PM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    It's obvious that your "millions of things" is hyperbolic at best.
    Yes. Have you never made an obvious exaggeration to make a point? Exactly the fact that it should be obvious is what makes that okay. The point is that there are a LOT of differences, but obviously nobody can yet put an exact number to it. No need for passive aggression.

    As for the rest, believe what you will. I already said what is speculation and what isn't.
    10-19-2014 04:34 PM
  5. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Yes. Have you never made an obvious exaggeration to make a point? Exactly the fact that it should be obvious is what makes that okay. The point is that there are a LOT of differences, but obviously nobody can yet put an exact number to it. No need for passive aggression.

    As for the rest, believe what you will. I already said what is speculation and what isn't.
    Passive aggression? I'm asking questions and pointing out that you're wrong about some things. For other things, I'd like to see at least a single source. Because Microsoft has said very little about the future of Windows on ARM other than "it exists". Please stop deflecting by saying I'm "criticizing" and "being passive aggressive".
    10-19-2014 04:45 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    Passive aggression? I'm asking questions and pointing out that you're wrong about some things. For other things, I'd like to see at least a single source. Because Microsoft has said very little about the future of Windows on ARM other than "it exists". Please stop deflecting by saying I'm "criticizing" and "being passive aggressive".
    I don't think you've yet pointed out anything that I'm wrong about. Anyway, that my attempts to explain or defend myself are just met with further false accusations (inappropriate hyperbole, deflecting the conversation, or whatever), makes this seem rather pointless and boring, so lets move on.

    In regard to W10 MS is very tight lipped, so I'm not aware of anything on the internet I could point you to. However, for those that attended the Q&A after the Windows 10 announcement, Belfiore did confirm that W10 for phones will not include the desktop. Unfortunately, that Q&A session was not publicized (at least not that I'm aware of). So. I can't give you a link. Does that automatically mean I'm speculating? I'm not asking you or anyone else to believe me. I'm just asking you and others not to make judgments about whether or not I'm speculating when you clearly aren't in a position to know.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-19-2014 at 05:57 PM. Reason: spelling
    10-19-2014 05:46 PM
  7. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    I don't think you've yet pointed out anything that I'm wrong about. Anyway, that my attempts to explain or defend myself are just met with further false accusations (inappropriate hyperbole, deflecting the conversation, or whatever), makes this seem rather pointless and boring, so lets move on.

    In regard to W10 MS is very tight lipped, so I'm not aware of anything on the internet I could point you to. However, for those that attended the Q&A after the Windows 10 announcement, Belfiore did confirm that W10 for phones will not include the desktop. Unfortunately, that Q&A session was not publicized (at least not that I'm aware of). So. I can't give you a link. Does that automatically mean I'm speculating? I'm not asking you or anyone else to believe me. I'm just asking you and others not to make judgments about whether or not I'm speculating when you clearly aren't in a position to know.
    I'm not going to just take your word' for it without proof. I even agreed that it probably wouldn't have a desktop, but based on what I heard from other sources. You haven't explained a single thing about what you've said. The instant I questioned you about flash, with the hopes of getting clarification, you then get defensive. I then point out you being hyperbolic, and you get defensive again. Now you're continuing to be defensive. Your only point is to say that you had access to something that I can neither confirm or deny.

    And I'm just supposed to accept what you're saying?

    And, for the record, I never said you were wrong about anything. I asked if you were right, then said you were speculating. Then, like I said, you got defensive. I'm not attacking you, getting passive aggressive, or anything negative like that. I'm saying that there has been nothing in the leaks to suggest a lot of what you're portraying as fact.


    speculation



    [ ˌspekyəˈlāSHən ]


    noun

    noun: speculation plural noun: speculations

    1.the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence

    As there is no firm evidence, you're speculating. Whether you want to admit it or not, that is the definition.
    10-19-2014 06:32 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    And I'm just supposed to accept what you're saying?
    No, you're not expected to blindly accept anything, and I clearly stated that in the post directly above yours. Why even ask? What I'm actually objecting to is also written out plainly, so I won't repeat it again.

    There is very little official information out there, but if you accept without having heard it for yourself Belfiore's confirmation that W104M (W10 for mobile devices) won't support the desktop or desktop software, then that by itself is already enough to make my point.

    My point, again, is that W10 and W104M are not the same OS, because they can't run the same software. IMHO lacking (amongst other things) the desktop (and yes, the million things that go along with that) means it's closer to the truth to think of them as two separate OSes, with some shared components. That's the whole point I've been trying to make, and I would be interested to learn if other people share that view, or if people think it's fair/useful to give them the same name despite such differences.
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    10-19-2014 07:31 PM
  9. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    I would be interested to learn if other people share that view, or if people think it's fair/useful to give them the same name despite such differences.
    I used to think that it is not such a good idea but now I've another perspective. I thought it'd confuse people but now tbh, it is not like people were lining to buy windows phones thinking they will be able to run desktop software(though it may or may not have created problems with RT tablets). I think, for now it may not affect them at all, come to think of it, windows phone isn't a most popular platform right now. But, it DOES make sense for MS to brand everything as Windows if they foresee a future in which desktop software will be recompiled as WinRT aka Modern aka Windows Store apps as universal apps for all of MS' ecosystem(phones, tablets, PCs, XBox, Smartwatches, IoT etc). Ofcourse, Windows 10 is just the beginning. It will be interesting to see how MS will proceed from that. Obviously, the most logical next step in my eyes will be to merge Win32 and WinRT to make it easy for legacy software developers to recompile their software as Windows store apps and to bring as much power to WinRT as existing Win32 without compromising on the advantages of WinRT.

    To OP, WP8.1 runs fine on S4 Plus devices so I don't see any reason for these devices to not be upgradeable to Windows 10 unless ofcourse they may want to make 1st Gen WP8 device owners to upgrade to Windows 10 phones.
    10-19-2014 08:57 PM
  10. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    No, you're not expected to blindly accept anything, and I clearly stated that in the post directly above yours. Why even ask? What I'm actually objecting to is also written out plainly, so I won't repeat it again.

    There is very little official information out there, but if you accept without having heard it for yourself Belfiore's confirmation that W104M (W10 for mobile devices) won't support the desktop or desktop software, then that by itself is already enough to make my point.

    My point, again, is that W10 and W104M are not the same OS, because they can't run the same software. IMHO lacking (amongst other things) the desktop (and yes, the million things that go along with that) means it's closer to the truth to think of them as two separate OSes, with some shared components. That's the whole point I've been trying to make, and I would be interested to learn if other people share that view, or if people think it's fair/useful to give them the same name despite such differences.
    Bold: I accept information from sources that have a proven track record. MJF is a known good source.
    Italics: They're trying to make a unified store. So, theoretically, they're going to make it to where the store apps that are on one are pretty much the same as the other, aside from maybe some UI considerations.

    The lack of a desktop doesn't make it a different OS. That would mean the interface makes the OS. No, the interface is just one part of an OS.
    10-19-2014 08:58 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    The lack of a desktop doesn't make it a different OS. That would mean the interface makes the OS. No, the interface is just one part of an OS.
    If that is how most people generally think about it, then I'd say MS is fine giving their desktop and mobile OSes the same name. In that case I'd also tell the OP, yes, all current WP devices will be upgradable to W10.

    I'm just sceptical that is how most see it. I suspect that for most people, the UI IS the OS.

    I'm also sceptical the tech press will agree. I expect most to start off by explaining how this version of Windows 10, again despite being called Windows, can't run any Windows software.
    Even if you think having a completely different UI is not a big deal, I think that to most people, not running the millions of desktop programs people associate with Windows is.

    If this is how most people think, then I'd tell the OP, no, your WP device will not get what the media is currently referring to as W10, but a significantly cut down version of it.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-20-2014 at 06:13 AM.
    10-20-2014 05:40 AM
  12. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    If that is how most people generally think about it, then I'd say MS is fine giving their desktop and mobile OSes the same name. In that case I'd also tell the OP, yes, all current WP devices will be upgradable to W10.

    I'm just sceptical that is how most see it. I suspect that for most people, the UI IS the OS.

    I'm also sceptical the tech press will agree. I expect most to start off by explaining how this version of Windows 10, again despite being called Windows, can't run any Windows software.
    Even if you think having a completely different UI is not a big deal, I think that to most people, not running the millions of desktop programs people associate with Windows is.

    If this is how most people think, then I'd tell the OP, no, your WP device will not get what the media is currently referring to as W10, but a significantly cut down version of it.
    A) Nobody should care what the media says these days.
    B) That isn't even what the OP was a talking about. He was asking if the devices we carry now will be stuck on WP 8.1 or if it will be getting an upgrade when 10 comes out. Nothing more, nothing less. It's why his "best answer" was about that very subject.
    10-20-2014 08:28 AM
  13. ajaya p's Avatar
    I hope all Device will get it.
    10-20-2014 08:36 AM
  14. ams963's Avatar
    My L520 running 8.1 will get Win 10 for sure.
    10-20-2014 08:49 AM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    A) Nobody should care what the media says these days.
    Agree, but that isn't the world we live in.

    B) That isn't even what the OP was a talking about. He was asking if the devices we carry now will be stuck on WP 8.1 or if it will be getting an upgrade when 10 comes out. Nothing more, nothing less. It's why his "best answer" was about that very subject.
    Based solely on the first post, you can't know exactly what the OP was talking about.

    If by "W10" the OP is referring to what is currently being discussed in the media, which isn't completely unreasonable given both OSes have the same name, then the answer to the OP's question is "no", even if every current WP device is eventually updated. The answer depends on what point of view the OP is asking from. As long as people have different ideas on what constitutes a W10 update (how about a developer preview update without firmware?), then our answers should take that variability into account. At least that is what I think.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-20-2014 at 12:51 PM. Reason: spelling
    10-20-2014 12:38 PM
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