03-12-2015 05:35 PM
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  1. spaulagain's Avatar
    iOS and Android have an immensely larger user base at the moment. That of course will change with W10 and the universal apps that come along with it, but are PC users going to switch to Store apps anytime soon? Even if they do, back in July 2014 Satya Nadella reported that Windows has a 14% market share across all devices. Microsoft CEO: 'Until we really change culturally, no renewal happens' Even if every user of every Windows device, whether it's a desktop, laptop, tablet, or phone, uses Store apps, it's still a relatively low user base. That's assuming that PC users will use apps to the extent of mobile users, which won't happen for awhile at least, maybe never.



    It will possible, sure. But it's certainly not reality.

    Ok, so MS should just give up. Close up shop on Windows and dump the whole thing. That's exactly what you are saying.

    If everyone just wants to use a web browser, then MS should just throw in the towel and let Chrome OS take over.

    Legacy apps are dying. Period. The whole thing where your computer is an open playground for applications to **** up and destroy is dying.

    The average user doesn't need to have applications that is that hacked into their OS. In fact, a universal store where they can trust downloading apps is a good thing.

    There are two reasons people use Windows 8 apps over browser apps.

    1. Feature gap
    2. Lack of Windowing

    Number two is fixed, the other just takes time like iOS and Android apps did.
    01-26-2015 10:25 PM
  2. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    What about Microsoft's 30% cut of revenue? Will that have to drop before Store apps take off?
    That's a big sticking point for me. My Win32 reseller takes around 6% of sales of my Win32 programs. MSFT takes 30% of my WinPRT app sales. I could see MSFT taking up to 10% to account for the additional management provided by the Windows Store ... but not 30%. Win32 is a no brainer for me.
    01-26-2015 10:26 PM
  3. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    Ok, so MS should just give up. Close up shop on Windows and dump the whole thing. That's exactly what you are saying.
    No, they should have remembered the lessons learned with OS/2 decades ago and made a new system that was compatible with but better than their existing API. For example, add a scalable UI API to Win32, remove the obsolete Win32 stuff, set new constraints on what a Win32X program can do (for security), and make the blasted thing able to run on Win7 via a platform update or redistributable. They did it correctly in the Win16->Win32 transition. WinRT is as DOA as OS/2 but this time it'll take MSFT down with it.

    Legacy apps are dying. Period. The whole thing where your computer is an open playground for applications to **** up and destroy is dying.
    Fix the problems in Win32. Don't throw the whole thing in the trash!
    01-26-2015 10:33 PM
  4. spaulagain's Avatar
    No, they should have remembered the lessons learned with OS/2 decades ago and made a new system that was compatible with but better than their existing API. For example, add a scalable UI API to Win32, remove the obsolete Win32 stuff, set new constraints on what a Win32X program can do (for security), and make the blasted thing able to run on Win7 via a platform update or redistributable. They did it correctly in the Win16->Win32 transition. WinRT is as DOA as OS/2 but this time it'll take MSFT down with it.


    Fix the problems in Win32. Don't throw the whole thing in the trash!
    Lol, here you go again. Well I guess MS is done. You should tell them that so they stop wasting money.
    01-26-2015 10:36 PM
  5. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    Lol, here you go again. Well I guess MS is done. You should tell them that so they stop wasting money.
    Oh, I told them (former coworkers, etc.) that back in 2012. If someone like me, who's as dedicated to MSFT as I am, is thinking about jumping ship with new development, they're in real trouble. Some of the people there get it and are bailing, others are simply doing what they're told (or like implementing new stuff regardless of whether it sells or not).
    01-26-2015 10:55 PM
  6. spaulagain's Avatar
    Oh, I told them (former coworkers, etc.) that back in 2012. If someone like me, who's as dedicated to MSFT as I am, is thinking about jumping ship with new development, they're in real trouble. Some of the people there get it and are bailing, others are simply doing what they're told (or like implementing new stuff regardless of whether it sells or not).
    Yes, I've heard your story. I just can't believe you are still here and haven't bailed on them already. My dad has been a long time dev for Windows like you, and thought just like you until recently. But, he's moved on and recognized this is where everything is going. And that with the Universal environment MS has built, it's an extremely strong position to be in. Especially with them working on iOS and Android capability as well.

    But it appears you are continuing to reject this change. Which I find baffling considering you as a developer should know that what you know today, doesn't matter a year from now.

    I'm a web developer and my coding knowledge has to change all the time. Everything from basic UI patterns, to new features, or depreciation of old standards, to various browser capability issues (Don't get me started on IE). It's a fact of life.

    And if you think it's any better/easier in the Android and iOS world, I wish you luck. It's not. In fact Apple just created their own new native environment. Things change, they always will even if not for the better at first. If you can't handle that as a developer then you have a rough career ahead of you.
    Laura Knotek and rhapdog like this.
    01-26-2015 11:06 PM
  7. spaulagain's Avatar
    I understand what you're saying. I just don't think the typical consumer would have much use for an app for house design. Building a house or remodeling a house isn't something most consumers do on a regular basis.

    No, I'm not dismissing enterprise users. I subscribe to this, and several other enterprise newsletters.
    Attachment 94876
    I'm just thinking more about what I'd use at home, not at work.
    So name a "consumer app"...

    Office? Already being done
    Facebook? Already done (still improving though)

    I really don't get this. One minute everyone complains that Universal apps are too basic and only good for simple consumer apps, on the other hand everyone's complaining that only niche "professional" apps are good on Universal apps,oh wait, that can't be possible because the APIs are horrible, they are so bad that everyone's going to bail on the platform they know well and magically perform miracles in a completely new and foreign app environment that has APIs just as limiting.

    If you guys have such little confidence in Microsoft's direction, why even bother being a part of it? If the ship is sinking in your mind, why would you jump on it?

    Because for me, that's completely the opposite. MS has been working towards this for years, and now that it's here,I want to be a part of it. Not bail because I'm scared it might not work. (even though it magically has for the competition).

    Even my coworkers (big Apple, Linux, Ruby fans) are impressed by the Universal app environment.
    Laura Knotek and rhapdog like this.
    01-26-2015 11:14 PM
  8. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    So name a "consumer app"...

    Office? Already being done
    Facebook? Already done (still improving though)

    I really don't get this. One minute everyone complains that Universal apps are too basic and only good for simple consumer apps, on the other hand everyone's complaining that only niche "professional" apps are good on Universal apps,oh wait, that can't be possible because the APIs are horrible, they are so bad that everyone's going to bail on the platform they know well and magically perform miracles in a completely new and foreign app environment that has APIs just as limiting.

    If you guys have such little confidence in Microsoft's direction, why even bother being a part of it? If the ship is sinking in your mind, why would you jump on it?

    Because for me, that's completely the opposite. MS has been working towards this for years, and now that it's here,I want to be a part of it. Not bail because I'm scared it might not work. (even though it magically has for the competition).
    I have no doubt that Windows 10 will be hugely successful with consumers and enterprise users. I just doubt how readily folks using desktop/notebook PCs will adapt to the Store apps. I do think Store apps will be successful on touch-centric devices like Windows tablets.

    As for a consumer app, I'll name Netflix. Yes, I have the Windows 8.1 Netflix app, but again, it lacks features available when watching Netflix in a desktop PC browser or even in the Windows Media Center program.

    For the record, I actually like Windows 8.1, and I like Windows 10 Tech Preview so far. They just need to do more to convince me to get off the desktop and its programs and use the Store apps. So far, nothing in the Store has attracted me as much as the desktop programs.
    01-26-2015 11:25 PM
  9. spaulagain's Avatar
    I have no doubt that Windows 10 will be hugely successful with consumers and enterprise users. I just doubt how readily folks using desktop/notebook PCs will adapt to the Store apps. I do think Store apps will be successful on touch-centric devices like Windows tablets.

    As for a consumer app, I'll name Netflix. Yes, I have the Windows 8.1 Netflix app, but again, it lacks features available when watching Netflix in a desktop PC browser or even in the Windows Media Center program.


    What features? Curious because I never use the web version of Netflix. Always the app.



    And missing features are just lazy developers and/or lack of demand. But apps are actually better feature wise in the long run because they can directly integrate with the OS. Things like Cortana integration are not possible with a web app.



    We could go a viscous circle discussing audience first or app first. It just takes time and friendly environment. WinRT was not that initially.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-26-2015 11:28 PM
  10. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    Yes, I've heard your story. I just can't believe you are still here and haven't bailed on them already.
    Win32 pays the bills ... and it's easy to develop for with VS/C++.

    Especially with them working on iOS and Android capability as well.
    It will be great if MSFT actually releases a Visual Studio version for Android and iOS, especially since the alpha VS15 version supports C++ development (only on Android so far).

    Things change, they always will even if not for the better at first. If you can't handle that as a developer then you have a rough career ahead of you.
    I'm pretty sure that OS/2 fans said the same thing 25+ years ago to Windows developers. OS/2 was the future. MSFT+IBM poured untold millions into its development ... "they must know what they're doing". WinRT is the same: incompatible, zero user interest, zero developer interest. Hell, MSFT's Office division, which alone would be one of the largest software companies in the world, didn't even produce a WinRT version of their until they were forced to (and it will have taken three years to develop).
    01-26-2015 11:37 PM
  11. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    What features? Curious because I never use the web version of Netflix. Always the app.

    And missing features are just lazy developers and/or lack of demand.

    We could go a viscous circle discussing audience first or app first. It just takes time and friendly environment. WinRT was not that initially.
    Here's a screenshot of my Netflix in the browser.
    screenshot-233-.png

    Notice how it shows new movies/shows at the top of the page. It also allows me to go through what I've already watched and rate in cases I forgot to rate, or modify my tastes.

    I'd never know what new movies or shows are available just using the app, unless I specifically searched for a title/actor/actress/director in the app.In the app, The Interview does not show up in "recently added" category.
    01-26-2015 11:42 PM
  12. spaulagain's Avatar
    Win32 pays the bills ... and it's easy to develop for with VS/C++.


    It will be great if MSFT actually releases a Visual Studio version for Android and iOS, especially since the alpha VS15 version supports C++ development (only on Android so far).


    Well that's already possible...

    http://xamarin.com/visual-studio



    Well then, I guess we'll all just pack our bags then. I'm not going to discuss it with you any further, you've made up your mind and shown yourself as completely unopen to change.
    01-26-2015 11:43 PM
  13. spaulagain's Avatar
    Here's a screenshot of my Netflix in the browser.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Notice how it shows new movies/shows at the top of the page. It also allows me to go through what I've already watched and rate in cases I forgot to rate, or modify my tastes.

    I'd never know what new movies or shows are available just using the app, unless I specifically searched for a title/actor/actress/director in the app.In the app, The Interview does not show up in "recently added" category.

    Interesting, all that exists in the Xbox One app (which is Windows 8 figuratively). So I guess they just haven't updated the Windows app much.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-26-2015 11:45 PM
  14. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Interesting, all that exists in the Xbox One app (which is Windows 8 figuratively). So I guess they just haven't updated the Windows app much.
    And I agree, that's Netflix's fault, not Microsoft's fault. However, it's definitely something that would keep desktop PC users away from the app, since Netflix is better in a browser.

    Getting Netflix to improve the app would require convincing them that desktop users would actually use a good app. If Netflix thinks desktop users just prefer a browser, then the app won't get any better.
    01-26-2015 11:48 PM
  15. spaulagain's Avatar
    And I agree, that's Netflix's fault, not Microsoft's fault. However, it's definitely something that would keep desktop PC users away from the app, since Netflix is better in a browser.

    Getting Netflix to improve the app would require convincing them that desktop users would actually use a good app. If Netflix thinks desktop users just prefer a browser, then the app won't get any better.


    People don't prefer a browser. They prefer features. If features are in the app, they'll go there. Especially because the app will be integrated with things like Cortana, etc.



    But you could make this same argument with iOS apps. Why use the iOS app when users can just open Netflix in the Safari/browser? Hell, why have apps at all? We should all just use Chrome OS maybe? People want apps, they just want full featured apps.
    01-27-2015 12:02 AM
  16. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    But you could make this same argument with iOS apps. Why use the iOS app when users can just open Netflix in the Safari/browser? Hell, why have apps at all? We should all just use Chrome OS maybe? People want apps, they just want full featured apps.
    For Netflix on a Mac, a browser would be necessary. Mac users don't really use apps either. The Mac app store is very limited, and those "apps" could really be considered programs anyway.

    I still think it will take convincing to move desktop users toward apps. I do think Universal Apps could be successful. However, the apps will definitely need to include all or more features than those found in programs and browsers.
    01-27-2015 12:08 AM
  17. spaulagain's Avatar
    For Netflix on a Mac, a browser would be necessary. Mac users don't really use apps either. The Mac app store is very limited, and those "apps" could really be considered programs anyway.

    I still think it will take convincing to move desktop users toward apps. I do think Universal Apps could be successful. However, the apps will definitely need to include all or more features than those found in programs and browsers.

    Desktop users use apps, that's why Windows has 94% of the market, because that's where the apps are.

    And I was talking about iOS. OSX has almost no apps anyways. However, I'm pretty sure Apple is heading in the direction of iOS app support on OSX.
    01-27-2015 12:13 AM
  18. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Desktop users use apps, that's why Windows has 94% of the market, because that's where the apps are.

    And I was talking about iOS. OSX has almost no apps anyways. However, I'm pretty sure Apple is heading in the direction of iOS app support on OSX.
    I still believe that most desktop users use programs, not apps (x86/x64 Windows programs). The majority of Windows users are not running 8/8.1, so they cannot use apps.

    All desktop Windows users might consider using apps once they upgrade to Windows 10. However, it will take some serious marketing by Microsoft to show them the benefits of apps rather than x86/x64 programs.
    01-27-2015 12:19 AM
  19. spaulagain's Avatar
    I still believe that desktop users use programs, not apps (x86/x64 Windows programs). The majority of Windows users are not running 8/8.1, so they cannot use apps.

    All desktop Windows users might consider using apps once they upgrade to Windows 10. However, it will take some serious marketing by Microsoft to show them the benefits of apps rather than x86/x64 programs.


    But they are one in the same. I don't get why there is this mental gap between legacy apps and universal apps. They're exactly the same thing, dedicated applications for a given task/tool.



    Just because one is a video app (Netflix) and another is a drafting tool (AutoCAD) doesn't mean they don't share the same value as a dedicated application. Sure AutoCAD is a more complicated application and probably not doable as a web app. But there are many applications including Office that are web accessible and people still use the app over the browser version.



    At the end of the day, it's where the features are. And apps are far more capable than web apps (when developed well).
    01-27-2015 12:26 AM
  20. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    But they are one in the same. I don't get why there is this mental gap between legacy apps and universal apps. They're exactly the same thing, dedicated applications for a given task/tool.



    Just because one is a video app (Netflix) and another is a drafting tool (AutoCAD) doesn't mean they don't share the same value as a dedicated application. Sure AutoCAD is a more complicated application and probably not doable as a web app. But there are many applications including Office that are web accessible and people still use the app over the browser version.



    At the end of the day, it's where the features are. And apps are far more capable than web apps (when developed well).
    Do you think that gaming apps could be as good as desktop PC gaming? Would apps be able to take advantage of the graphics cards in gaming rigs? Could one overclock if he/she uses an app?
    01-27-2015 12:30 AM
  21. spaulagain's Avatar
    Do you think that gaming apps could be as good as desktop PC gaming? Would apps be able to take advantage of the graphics cards in gaming rigs? Could one overclock if he/she uses an app?

    I'm confused, your talking about niche applications like hardcore games. But just a minute ago you were talking about Netflix app.

    Niche, high power/complicated apps will probably remain x86 apps for a while. But everything else can be a Universal app. Like I said, those more simple apps that everyone uses are still better as an app than a web app because they can integrate with the OS and other apps (app contracts).

    Even as a web developer, I know there are critical limitations to applications built into the web.

    I don't understand how iOS and Android can blow up with all these apps (they have browsers too). Amd yet magically Windows is supposedly incapable of doing the same.

    It feels like everyone just denies Microsoft any chance of moving forward. Like they are indefinitely stuck in this legacy desktop environment. Something that's going to be dead within 10 years.

    And BTW, yea, eventually all games will be served via the store. Just like Steam. It's not like Microsoft is going to keep the Universal environment some minimal limited environment forever. Once they've built APIs for everything, why give apps the opportunity to **** peoples OS up any more?
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-27-2015 12:40 AM
  22. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I'm confused, your talking about niche applications like hardcore games. But just a minute ago you were talking about Netflix app.

    Niche, high power/complicated apps will probably remain x86 apps for a while. But everything else can be a Universal app. Like I said, those more simple apps that everyone uses are still better as an app than a web app because they can integrate with the OS and other apps (app contracts).

    Even as a web developer, I know there are critical limitations to applications built into the web.

    I don't understand how iOS and Android can blow up with all these apps (they have browsers too). Amd yet magically Windows is supposedly incapable of doing the same.

    It feels like everyone just denies Microsoft any chance of moving forward. Like they are indefinitely stuck in this legacy desktop environment. Something that's going to be dead within 10 years.

    And BTW, yea, eventually all games will be served via the store. Just like Steam. It's not like Microsoft is going to keep the Universal environment some minimal limited environment forever. Once they've built APIs for everything, why give apps the opportunity to **** peoples OS up any more?
    I was not referring to niche apps per se. I was referring to consumer usage, rather than enterprise usage. I wouldn't consider gaming a niche use, since many people choose PCs for their gaming capabilities (and gaming is definitely consumer-based, not enterprise-based). Notice how Mr Cohen mentions that his son needs a PC for gaming in this article. I belong to two local Linux User Groups, and even the most hardcore Linux users in the groups have Windows for their gaming needs. I use the Steam client (and Steam Store), but games not purchased from Steam can be added to the Steam client. Many of the games I use on Steam are available elsewhere, such as Amazon.com, but I like Steam's sales. Yes, Steam has clients for OS X and Linux (and games for both in the store); however, the selection of games for Windows is vastly superior than the selection for OS X and Linux, whether one buys games from the Steam Store, Amazon.com, or directly from the game developers' sites.

    Once again, I think Microsoft definitely has a chance to become successful with apps. That is not something limited to Apple or Google. I just feel that the majority of desktop Windows users need education on why they'd want apps on the desktop, and the desktop apps need to be as good or better than the legacy programs in order for desktop Windows users to bother trying them.
    01-27-2015 12:53 AM
  23. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    But they are one in the same. I don't get why there is this mental gap between legacy apps and universal apps. They're exactly the same thing, dedicated applications for a given task/tool.
    No they're not! The WinRT app model is completely different from the Win32 model, especially in the installation. No possibility for downloadable add-ons, extensions, etc. The life cycle is different, with WinRT being a run-stop architecture while Win32 is always running. File access is different (and terribly slow in WinRT due to Async and the File Broker). Even MSFT itself recommends Win32 for programs of any complexity.
    01-27-2015 07:05 AM
  24. tiziano27's Avatar
    I have no doubt that Windows 10 will be hugely successful with consumers and enterprise users. I just doubt how readily folks using desktop/notebook PCs will adapt to the Store apps. I do think Store apps will be successful on touch-centric devices like Windows tablets.

    As for a consumer app, I'll name Netflix. Yes, I have the Windows 8.1 Netflix app, but again, it lacks features available when watching Netflix in a desktop PC browser or even in the Windows Media Center program.

    For the record, I actually like Windows 8.1, and I like Windows 10 Tech Preview so far. They just need to do more to convince me to get off the desktop and its programs and use the Store apps. So far, nothing in the Store has attracted me as much as the desktop programs.

    The biggest problem for the adoption of apps in Windows 8 is not the quality of the app itself. The problem is that Windows 8 is a total mess and even if companies would develop great apps for the OS, few people would use them.
    First, the duality and inconsistencies of the Metro and Desktop environments. I think most people ignore metro apps because every time they launch a metro app they're pushed into an incomprehensible parallel reality.
    Store apps are optimized for touch, for tablets, that implies less features, lower information density, apps that don't work well with keyboard and mouse, web sites are better. Additionally, Windows 8 apps have the worst user experience ever created, with hidden menus, configuration and search, without any indication of how to find those elements. Too much white space that is excessive even for touch.

    I think Universal apps has an opportunity to succeed in Windows 10 because the duality of Metro and Desktop environments is removed, the apps integrate beautifully in your familiar Desktop user experience. Most of the flaws of metro are being corrected, and apps will be better designed for mouse and keyboard interaction, maybe some companies could even fork part of the UI to target each form factor.

    Microsoft has to give developers some advantages over websites too. For example, for developers, discoverability through the store is important. The store provides a secure payment system so you don't have to implement your own. Store apps are secure and can be installed without worries, distributing old x86 apps has big security issues. The great benefit of having a little piece of the user's start menu to showcase your content and increase the engagement. A lower cost of development to achieve a superior result without having to test the app in every single browser and their inconsistencies that are changing all the time.. and more.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-27-2015 07:49 AM
  25. Jas00555's Avatar


    But you could make this same argument with iOS apps. Why use the iOS app when users can just open Netflix in the Safari/browser? .
    Can you stream Netflix through an iPad browser?

    Either way, people prefer apps for smaller devices because websites are usually hard to navigate on said small devices.

    Personally, I do prefer to do things on my PC in a web browser and I even try to do things in the apps. They're just not as easy to get to. It's a lot easier to simply open a new tab, then to close the app, find it in the Start Menu/app list, then open it. Even though I try to use the store apps as much as possible, I usually only use it when I snap it to the side and watch a movie while I'm doing something else.

    Anecdotal, but my sister uses them all the time on her Surface Pro 3, but never uses them on a desktop.

    I agree with Laura that selling Windows tablets is the way to push these apps (although I would argue 2 in 1s work too).
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-27-2015 08:32 AM
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