I want to be, but I'm not convinced - Universal Apps

[spaulagain]

What about Microsoft's 30% cut of revenue? Will that have to drop before Store apps take off?

And as Laura said, quality is indeed a problem currently. So far I have yet to see an app that is better than it's equivalent in either the browser or a legacy program.

30% cut doesn't seem to be an issue for all the iOS and Android developers. Oh, and not all applications are paid for at the app, many are subscription items that having nothing to do with MS taking a cut. Because the apps are free, the access isn't.

As for quality, it's definitely possible. If people can develop the amazing apps (better than web versions) in the ****ty iOS development environment, then they can definitely do this in the Universal environment.

Keep in mind, the Universal app environment is completely native to the old legacy apps. It's all .NET. Devs can use the same C# backend, etc.

Again, its just a matter of demand/need. Windows 8 had a bad reputation, users couldn't even use those WinRT apps in the standard windowed environment which steered many users away from it. It was a new environment as far as APIs, and they were quite limiting initially. I would not use the past lack of success as a measure for future success in the environment.

And if the WinRT environment is soo bad or dead, then why is MS putting 100% of there resources behind. Why dis they just go through and rewrite all there apps, including Office in the environment?

Is this all just a waste of time? Should Microsoft just crawl up and die? Because that's exactly what will happen if this doesn't work.

 

[spaulagain]

Do you know of any examples so far that are aimed at general consumers, rather than professionals in specific careers?

That is a consumer app. It's super easy to use, you don't have to be some AutoCAD genius or professional interior designer to use it. It's that simple yet powerful.

And why the hell do professional apps not count? They are the reason Windows is so successful, seems there would be a **** ton of value with professional apps in that environment as well.

I really don't get why this such a road block for you guys. My Dad is 20+ year enterprise application developer. Goes back to FoxPro and all those goodies.

He's been very excited about building in this environment. He realizes how amazing it is to really be able to write once, and release to all those platforms.

 

[rhapdog]

I have an Office 365 subscription. I've tried the Metro OneNote app, and it lacks so much functionality compared to the desktop OneNote program. I gave up on Metro OneNote due to the lack of features. The OneNote program is awesome.

Yes, lacks features now. It's about to be the full deal. Desktop and Metro will become one and the same. It will be the full office apps, but "touch friendly". Can't wait. Not there yet, but it is coming.

 

[Laura Knotek]

That is a consumer app. It's super easy to use, you don't have to be some AutoCAD genius or professional interior designer to use it. It's that simple yet powerful.

And why the hell do professional apps not count? They are the reason Windows is so successful, seems there would be a **** ton of value with professional apps in that environment as well.

I really don't get why this such a road block for you guys. My Dad is 20+ year enterprise application developer. Goes back to FoxPro and all those goodies.

He's been very excited about building in this environment. He realizes how amazing it is to really be able to write once, and release to all those platforms.

I understand what you're saying. I just don't think the typical consumer would have much use for an app for house design. Building a house or remodeling a house isn't something most consumers do on a regular basis.

No, I'm not dismissing enterprise users. I subscribe to this, and several other enterprise newsletters.

I'm just thinking more about what I'd use at home, not at work.

 

[tgp]

30% cut doesn't seem to be an issue for all the iOS and Android developers. Oh, and not all applications are paid for at the app, many are subscription items that having nothing to do with MS taking a cut. Because the apps are free, the access isn't.

iOS and Android have an immensely larger user base at the moment. That of course will change with W10 and the universal apps that come along with it, but are PC users going to switch to Store apps anytime soon? Even if they do, back in July 2014 Satya Nadella reported that Windows has a 14% market share across all devices. Microsoft CEO: 'Until we really change culturally, no renewal happens' Even if every user of every Windows device, whether it's a desktop, laptop, tablet, or phone, uses Store apps, it's still a relatively low user base. That's assuming that PC users will use apps to the extent of mobile users, which won't happen for awhile at least, maybe never.

As for quality, it's definitely possible. If people can develop the amazing apps (better than web versions) in the ****ty iOS development environment, then they can definitely do this in the Universal environment.

It will be possible, sure. But it's certainly not reality.

 

[spaulagain]

iOS and Android have an immensely larger user base at the moment. That of course will change with W10 and the universal apps that come along with it, but are PC users going to switch to Store apps anytime soon? Even if they do, back in July 2014 Satya Nadella reported that Windows has a 14% market share across all devices. Microsoft CEO: 'Until we really change culturally, no renewal happens' Even if every user of every Windows device, whether it's a desktop, laptop, tablet, or phone, uses Store apps, it's still a relatively low user base. That's assuming that PC users will use apps to the extent of mobile users, which won't happen for awhile at least, maybe never.



It will possible, sure. But it's certainly not reality.

Ok, so MS should just give up. Close up shop on Windows and dump the whole thing. That's exactly what you are saying.

If everyone just wants to use a web browser, then MS should just throw in the towel and let Chrome OS take over.

Legacy apps are dying. Period. The whole thing where your computer is an open playground for applications to **** up and destroy is dying.

The average user doesn't need to have applications that is that hacked into their OS. In fact, a universal store where they can trust downloading apps is a good thing.

There are two reasons people use Windows 8 apps over browser apps.

1. Feature gap
2. Lack of Windowing

Number two is fixed, the other just takes time like iOS and Android apps did.

 

[Mike Gibson]

What about Microsoft's 30% cut of revenue? Will that have to drop before Store apps take off?

That's a big sticking point for me. My Win32 reseller takes around 6% of sales of my Win32 programs. MSFT takes 30% of my WinPRT app sales. I could see MSFT taking up to 10% to account for the additional management provided by the Windows Store ... but not 30%. Win32 is a no brainer for me.

 

[Mike Gibson]

Ok, so MS should just give up. Close up shop on Windows and dump the whole thing. That's exactly what you are saying.

No, they should have remembered the lessons learned with OS/2 decades ago and made a new system that was compatible with but better than their existing API. For example, add a scalable UI API to Win32, remove the obsolete Win32 stuff, set new constraints on what a Win32X program can do (for security), and make the blasted thing able to run on Win7 via a platform update or redistributable. They did it correctly in the Win16->Win32 transition. WinRT is as DOA as OS/2 but this time it'll take MSFT down with it.

Legacy apps are dying. Period. The whole thing where your computer is an open playground for applications to **** up and destroy is dying.

Fix the problems in Win32. Don't throw the whole thing in the trash!

 

[spaulagain]

No, they should have remembered the lessons learned with OS/2 decades ago and made a new system that was compatible with but better than their existing API. For example, add a scalable UI API to Win32, remove the obsolete Win32 stuff, set new constraints on what a Win32X program can do (for security), and make the blasted thing able to run on Win7 via a platform update or redistributable. They did it correctly in the Win16->Win32 transition. WinRT is as DOA as OS/2 but this time it'll take MSFT down with it.


Fix the problems in Win32. Don't throw the whole thing in the trash!

Lol, here you go again. Well I guess MS is done. You should tell them that so they stop wasting money.

 

[Mike Gibson]

Lol, here you go again. Well I guess MS is done. You should tell them that so they stop wasting money.

Oh, I told them (former coworkers, etc.) that back in 2012. If someone like me, who's as dedicated to MSFT as I am, is thinking about jumping ship with new development, they're in real trouble. Some of the people there get it and are bailing, others are simply doing what they're told (or like implementing new stuff regardless of whether it sells or not).

 

[spaulagain]

Oh, I told them (former coworkers, etc.) that back in 2012. If someone like me, who's as dedicated to MSFT as I am, is thinking about jumping ship with new development, they're in real trouble. Some of the people there get it and are bailing, others are simply doing what they're told (or like implementing new stuff regardless of whether it sells or not).

Yes, I've heard your story. I just can't believe you are still here and haven't bailed on them already. My dad has been a long time dev for Windows like you, and thought just like you until recently. But, he's moved on and recognized this is where everything is going. And that with the Universal environment MS has built, it's an extremely strong position to be in. Especially with them working on iOS and Android capability as well.

But it appears you are continuing to reject this change. Which I find baffling considering you as a developer should know that what you know today, doesn't matter a year from now.

I'm a web developer and my coding knowledge has to change all the time. Everything from basic UI patterns, to new features, or depreciation of old standards, to various browser capability issues (Don't get me started on IE). It's a fact of life.

And if you think it's any better/easier in the Android and iOS world, I wish you luck. It's not. In fact Apple just created their own new native environment. Things change, they always will even if not for the better at first. If you can't handle that as a developer then you have a rough career ahead of you.

 

[spaulagain]

I understand what you're saying. I just don't think the typical consumer would have much use for an app for house design. Building a house or remodeling a house isn't something most consumers do on a regular basis.

No, I'm not dismissing enterprise users. I subscribe to this, and several other enterprise newsletters.
View attachment 94876
I'm just thinking more about what I'd use at home, not at work.

So name a "consumer app"...

Office? Already being done
Facebook? Already done (still improving though)

I really don't get this. One minute everyone complains that Universal apps are too basic and only good for simple consumer apps, on the other hand everyone's complaining that only niche "professional" apps are good on Universal apps,oh wait, that can't be possible because the APIs are horrible, they are so bad that everyone's going to bail on the platform they know well and magically perform miracles in a completely new and foreign app environment that has APIs just as limiting.

If you guys have such little confidence in Microsoft's direction, why even bother being a part of it? If the ship is sinking in your mind, why would you jump on it?

Because for me, that's completely the opposite. MS has been working towards this for years, and now that it's here,I want to be a part of it. Not bail because I'm scared it might not work. (even though it magically has for the competition).

Even my coworkers (big Apple, Linux, Ruby fans) are impressed by the Universal app environment.

 

[Laura Knotek]

So name a "consumer app"...

Office? Already being done
Facebook? Already done (still improving though)

I really don't get this. One minute everyone complains that Universal apps are too basic and only good for simple consumer apps, on the other hand everyone's complaining that only niche "professional" apps are good on Universal apps,oh wait, that can't be possible because the APIs are horrible, they are so bad that everyone's going to bail on the platform they know well and magically perform miracles in a completely new and foreign app environment that has APIs just as limiting.

If you guys have such little confidence in Microsoft's direction, why even bother being a part of it? If the ship is sinking in your mind, why would you jump on it?

Because for me, that's completely the opposite. MS has been working towards this for years, and now that it's here,I want to be a part of it. Not bail because I'm scared it might not work. (even though it magically has for the competition).

I have no doubt that Windows 10 will be hugely successful with consumers and enterprise users. I just doubt how readily folks using desktop/notebook PCs will adapt to the Store apps. I do think Store apps will be successful on touch-centric devices like Windows tablets.

As for a consumer app, I'll name Netflix. Yes, I have the Windows 8.1 Netflix app, but again, it lacks features available when watching Netflix in a desktop PC browser or even in the Windows Media Center program.

For the record, I actually like Windows 8.1, and I like Windows 10 Tech Preview so far. They just need to do more to convince me to get off the desktop and its programs and use the Store apps. So far, nothing in the Store has attracted me as much as the desktop programs.

 

[spaulagain]

I have no doubt that Windows 10 will be hugely successful with consumers and enterprise users. I just doubt how readily folks using desktop/notebook PCs will adapt to the Store apps. I do think Store apps will be successful on touch-centric devices like Windows tablets.

As for a consumer app, I'll name Netflix. Yes, I have the Windows 8.1 Netflix app, but again, it lacks features available when watching Netflix in a desktop PC browser or even in the Windows Media Center program.

What features? Curious because I never use the web version of Netflix. Always the app.



And missing features are just lazy developers and/or lack of demand. But apps are actually better feature wise in the long run because they can directly integrate with the OS. Things like Cortana integration are not possible with a web app.



We could go a viscous circle discussing audience first or app first. It just takes time and friendly environment. WinRT was not that initially.

 

[Mike Gibson]

Yes, I've heard your story. I just can't believe you are still here and haven't bailed on them already.

Win32 pays the bills ... and it's easy to develop for with VS/C++.

Especially with them working on iOS and Android capability as well.

It will be great if MSFT actually releases a Visual Studio version for Android and iOS, especially since the alpha VS15 version supports C++ development (only on Android so far).

Things change, they always will even if not for the better at first. If you can't handle that as a developer then you have a rough career ahead of you.

I'm pretty sure that OS/2 fans said the same thing 25+ years ago to Windows developers. OS/2 was the future. MSFT+IBM poured untold millions into its development ... "they must know what they're doing". WinRT is the same: incompatible, zero user interest, zero developer interest. Hell, MSFT's Office division, which alone would be one of the largest software companies in the world, didn't even produce a WinRT version of their until they were forced to (and it will have taken three years to develop).

 

[Laura Knotek]

What features? Curious because I never use the web version of Netflix. Always the app.

And missing features are just lazy developers and/or lack of demand.

We could go a viscous circle discussing audience first or app first. It just takes time and friendly environment. WinRT was not that initially.

Here's a screenshot of my Netflix in the browser.


Notice how it shows new movies/shows at the top of the page. It also allows me to go through what I've already watched and rate in cases I forgot to rate, or modify my tastes.

I'd never know what new movies or shows are available just using the app, unless I specifically searched for a title/actor/actress/director in the app.In the app, The Interview does not show up in "recently added" category.

 

[spaulagain]

Win32 pays the bills ... and it's easy to develop for with VS/C++.


It will be great if MSFT actually releases a Visual Studio version for Android and iOS, especially since the alpha VS15 version supports C++ development (only on Android so far).

Well that's already possible...

http://xamarin.com/visual-studio



Well then, I guess we'll all just pack our bags then. I'm not going to discuss it with you any further, you've made up your mind and shown yourself as completely unopen to change.

 

[spaulagain]

Here's a screenshot of my Netflix in the browser.
View attachment 94879

Notice how it shows new movies/shows at the top of the page. It also allows me to go through what I've already watched and rate in cases I forgot to rate, or modify my tastes.

I'd never know what new movies or shows are available just using the app, unless I specifically searched for a title/actor/actress/director in the app.In the app, The Interview does not show up in "recently added" category.

Interesting, all that exists in the Xbox One app (which is Windows 8 figuratively). So I guess they just haven't updated the Windows app much.

 

[Laura Knotek]

Interesting, all that exists in the Xbox One app (which is Windows 8 figuratively). So I guess they just haven't updated the Windows app much.

And I agree, that's Netflix's fault, not Microsoft's fault. However, it's definitely something that would keep desktop PC users away from the app, since Netflix is better in a browser.

Getting Netflix to improve the app would require convincing them that desktop users would actually use a good app. If Netflix thinks desktop users just prefer a browser, then the app won't get any better.

 

[spaulagain]

And I agree, that's Netflix's fault, not Microsoft's fault. However, it's definitely something that would keep desktop PC users away from the app, since Netflix is better in a browser.

Getting Netflix to improve the app would require convincing them that desktop users would actually use a good app. If Netflix thinks desktop users just prefer a browser, then the app won't get any better.

People don't prefer a browser. They prefer features. If features are in the app, they'll go there. Especially because the app will be integrated with things like Cortana, etc.



But you could make this same argument with iOS apps. Why use the iOS app when users can just open Netflix in the Safari/browser? Hell, why have apps at all? We should all just use Chrome OS maybe? People want apps, they just want full featured apps.