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04-29-2015 01:32 PM
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  1. AndyCalling's Avatar
    I have been paying increasing attention to W10 evolution as release date approaches. I am very much not convinced, but it does SEEM as if Win8 usability is coming back. In fact, some of the Win8 usability that got lost in 8.1 may even be making a reappearance? The issues I have been concerned about so far, and their current status as I am led to believe, are as follows:

    1. Full Metro immersive interface for Metro apps and Start Screen not enabled at boot - Corrected.
    2. Horizontal scroll (ideal for wide screen devices) replaced by vertical scroll in full Metro interface - Corrected.
    3. Task bar forced on in Metro interface - Corrected.
    4. Current desktop apps not showing on desktop task bar when full Metro interface enabled - Optional, can be switched back on.
    5. Charms bar not present - Corrected, when full Metro is enabled charms return.
    6. Share not present - It is present, but it is hidden in different places for every app? Sounds unlikely when MS's stated goal is a unified interface in all things, is there no option on the task bar or something? Is there any way to add an icon or tile or something as a shortcut so I don't have to keep searching for it? Otherwise I'll end up just going straight to the email app every time which would be a big backwards step. What's the procedure here? Or have I got this confused?
    7. Metro snap - Corrected kind of, it works but for some reason has been hidden with a double swipe, first down then from the left? Or something? Sounds awkward, is this action tweakable at all?
    8. Legacy menus in Start Screen - Possibly corrected! On a desktop with a high functioning 5 point touchpad (such as the Logitech T650) the presence of the mouse pointer seems to confuse Win8.1 into showing desktop legacy context menus on right click instead of the usual touch menus. This worked correctly in Win8 but was broken for 8.1. Now, with user choice to force 'tablet' mode in Win10, I'm assuming the legacy menus will be properly disabled when running full Metro interface and will only show when running the desktop app?
    9. All Apps List (including previous docs/apps history if enabled) always present on Start Screen and pushes many live tiles off the first screen, where they clearly need to be to show you their data - Can't find much info on how to adjust this, can the All Apps List be hidden? Or moved back under the tiles as in Win8? Or moved to the right of the tiles so it is only seen if I need it? I assume there is a way because natural use would be to go to the simple layout first (tiles) and reach for the catalogue of all things only when needed, when trying to find the rare and exotic stuff. Just like on the desktop, where it is desktop icons first for the most used stuff and Start Menu for All Apps if necessary.
    10. Left swipe app shuffle - Missing In Action - I hear the Win8.1 feature of replacing the app shuffle with a pop out menu is now the only option in Win10, just with text as well as pictures? No option to switch to the Win8 method. I do hate this restriction and I can't see why it has been banned, any signs of a return? Would this be something a third party could possibly re-add? This alone may stop me moving to Win10 as it was so natural... I am torn.
    11. No Metro version of either IE or Spartan browsers will be available - ??? I have heard this but I don't really believe it, as it doesn't make much sense. How can one browse the web in the Metro interface without a browser? The desktop version is certainly no good for touch. I assume a Metro browser is being worked on? Please correct my poor understanding here.


    So, possibly things are moving back towards the sensible and the usable but just how far has it gone? Are we there yet? Please, give your impression and if you can fill in any of my current knowledge gaps (of which there are many) I would be most grateful. Honestly, there could be biscuits.

    Thanks chums!
    04-27-2015 03:09 PM
  2. theefman's Avatar
    The fact that the desktop taskbar is even being offered as an option for use on a tablet says no. Its more like Windows 7, not 8.
    04-27-2015 03:17 PM
  3. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Well, it certainly was, but I sense a change in the air as some of these issues are being reported as corrected. And Win8.1 offers the Task Bar by default but it is simply switched off when using Metro (and only presented in the desktop app) as I am told it is in Win10 as well. Don't get me wrong, I have yet to be convinced by Win10 and plan A is still to keep all my devices on Win8.1 and wait for Win12 but it is just possible... no?

    I have another to add, I hear that desktop apps open in full screen windows all the time if I force 'tablet' mode? This would be really annoying though, because if I'm using a desktop app on my tablet then I'll be using a pointer or mouse of course and will not want them full screen. Metro apps yes, as they are touch but certainly not desktop apps which work better as windows. Is there a way to avoid this issue? Or have I misunderstood?
    04-27-2015 03:28 PM
  4. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    My two cents on some of your notes:

    3. While Microsoft's first party applications are changing in style and paradigm, it doesn't necessarily remove the ability of using horizontal scrolling or pivots in apps. First party apps from Microsoft may be moving to a different usage paradigm, and I think they explained themselves well thus far as to why; but it's not stopping anybody else, technically, from designing the old way.

    6. If I recall, Share is still present. In Windows 10 TP on desktops the "charm" is tucked away in a hamburger menu in the top left of the screen. Is it less discoverable? Yes, but I don't think it's any less discoverable there than it was in 8.1 before. One could even make an argument saying it's more discoverable there. Could.

    7. Snap is still in Windows 10 TP, and I think it's method is better than before. I can actually snap not only to left or right, but also to corners. I can resize widths/heights, snap another app somewhere, and it'll fill up the remaining free screen space. That being said it's still rough, but it's more powerful than it was before.

    10. Idea is it's more discoverable to switch apps using the task bar, I believe, instead of a "hidden" place on the left edge. I can live with that even if I preferred that way of Modern app switching.

    8, 11: The idea (hope) is that in the future all applications on Windows will be designed in Modern. Spartan on Windows 10 is really a Modern app and not a desktop app on the system; it looks the same whether in desktop mode or tablet mode, and is designed to look and be consistent in function regardless of the mode the computer is in; much like MVVM, where the ViewModel shouldn't care about what the view looks like, Modern apps in the future won't care how it's running. Consessions/Conveniences in app design and development will help apps run and look consistently as a Windows app in a Windows-as-a-Service kind of view. Other examples are the preview Office apps, also designed in Modern, but usable as a Desktop App or a Tablet app. As things are fleshed out, eventually the legacy stuff will phase away as things move toward Modern. However, the legacy support, I feel, will be around for some time.
    AndyCalling likes this.
    04-27-2015 06:12 PM
  5. Rasetech's Avatar
    I have another to add, I hear that desktop apps open in full screen windows all the time if I force 'tablet' mode? This would be really annoying though, because if I'm using a desktop app on my tablet then I'll be using a pointer or mouse of course and will not want them full screen. Metro apps yes, as they are touch but certainly not desktop apps which work better as windows. Is there a way to avoid this issue? Or have I misunderstood?
    If you use mouse and keyboard you will be probably not working in tablet mode.
    04-28-2015 12:19 AM
  6. paulsalter's Avatar
    If you use mouse and keyboard you will be probably not working in tablet mode.
    This is where I dislike the term tablet mode, why should it have to be mouse/keyboard or touch, the 2 should be combined and you use whatever is easiest/best for you at the time

    I have a laptop, which has a smallish screen, I want to run apps full screen without taskbar(regardless of if I am using touch or the keyboard/mouse), I also want to run original style desktop programs as now, not full screen with desktop looking like now
    AndyCalling likes this.
    04-28-2015 03:23 AM
  7. AndyCalling's Avatar
    If you use mouse and keyboard you will be probably not working in tablet mode.
    No, I use mouse, keyboard and touch simultaneously.
    Mahdi Ghiasi likes this.
    04-28-2015 05:22 AM
  8. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Don Gero, using the task bar to switch apps is not possible as I will have the task bar restricted to the desktop app only. When I'm not running the desktop app I will still need to switch between Metro apps. I am still hopeful that the intuitive app shuffle will be reinstated as in 8.1 since there is no reason to disable it. Win8.1 has both methods and the user can choose.

    Any sign of a third party task switcher to fill in the shuffle gap?

    Also, I hear the start screen now scrolls horizontally again (at least, on landscape devices). So that awkwardness should no longer be an issue. And since the charm bar is reportedly back in 'tablet' mode I imagine MS will either put the share option back on the charms or third party will do it. Any third party options in the works?

    I expect most apps will retain pivot, firstly because it works so well and secondly because otherwise their apps won't gel well with Win8.1 which would be horrid to use without pivots. MS apps can always be replaced with decent third party replacements. We just need a good selection that provide all the MS app functionality but with a more polished Win8 style. Doubtless they're out there/in production. Anyone found some good alternatives to these MS apps that keep to the Metro style well and lose nothing, without unneeded bloat 'features'? Or can I just copy over the current app files from my 8.1 installs to a Win10 install and continue to use them?

    I am still focussed on keeping 8.1 on my devices but I may be convinced to go dual boot on my desktop or run Win10 under Hyper-V if things keep moving back to the Win8 style as they appear to be doing.

    Key issues remain desktop window resizing by default, poor app switching and the tile-obfuscating all apps list on the start screen. If these issues can be cleared up Win10 may actually be a goer. If anyone has spotted third party or first party developments that may address these issues I would be keen to hear about them.
    Last edited by AndyCalling; 04-28-2015 at 06:05 AM.
    04-28-2015 05:29 AM
  9. theefman's Avatar
    Well, it certainly was, but I sense a change in the air as some of these issues are being reported as corrected. And Win8.1 offers the Task Bar by default but it is simply switched off when using Metro (and only presented in the desktop app) as I am told it is in Win10 as well. Don't get me wrong, I have yet to be convinced by Win10 and plan A is still to keep all my devices on Win8.1 and wait for Win12 but it is just possible... no?

    I have another to add, I hear that desktop apps open in full screen windows all the time if I force 'tablet' mode? This would be really annoying though, because if I'm using a desktop app on my tablet then I'll be using a pointer or mouse of course and will not want them full screen. Metro apps yes, as they are touch but certainly not desktop apps which work better as windows. Is there a way to avoid this issue? Or have I misunderstood?
    Not sure where your info is coming from but none of the things you mention from Windows 8 are returning, afaik. I'm sticking with Windows 8 & 7 on all my devices where applicable.
    04-28-2015 06:07 AM
  10. Spectrum90's Avatar
    It would be confusing for the user if tablet mode is too different from desktop mode. They have to compromise the quality of the user experience in both modes to merge them, but It seems desktop mode will be privileged in Windows 10.
    04-28-2015 06:14 AM
  11. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Not sure where your info is coming from but none of the things you mention from Windows 8 are returning, afaik. I'm sticking with Windows 8 & 7 on all my devices where applicable.
    My info is coming from talking to people who are using the Win10 TP. Are you sure these things are all wrong? Why would TP testers be lying? Sounds unlikely to me.
    04-28-2015 06:35 AM
  12. AndyCalling's Avatar
    It would be confusing for the user if tablet mode is too different from desktop mode. They have to compromise the quality of the user experience in both modes to merge them, but It seems desktop mode will be privileged in Windows 10.
    In 8.1 there was no 'tablet' mode and the interfaces were seem-less (except legacy context menus invading the start screen on desktop PCs for some reason, unlike Win8).

    Win10 is supposed to be less 'merged', having a separate 'tablet' mode for touch devices. That should enable far more user choice and so less compromise, if it is properly taken forward by MS. What I need to do is fully understand how best to exercise that choice to retain the immersive Win8 touch experience. If that can be realised, then in the fullness of time I may be able to drop dual boot/Hyper-V and fully commit.

    Also, many people use iPads and don't have confusion when they switch to using their Windows PC. An even bigger UI difference there, well coped with. I can't see that you're right with that concern.

    Lots of work-arounds to research first, however. This is why I'm asking so much.

    I may try running the TP under Hyper-V this bank holiday weekend if I have the time, but I still have work to do to get my new Yoga 2 13 match fit (bought it before new kit gets forced into Win10, as I want all my devices working on the same OS for consistency).

    One thing's for sure, Win8 was a lot less work to move to than Win10 is shaping up to be.
    Last edited by AndyCalling; 04-28-2015 at 06:58 AM.
    04-28-2015 06:47 AM
  13. theefman's Avatar
    My info is coming from talking to people who are using the Win10 TP. Are you sure these things are all wrong? Why would TP testers be lying? Sounds unlikely to me.





    This is taken from a YouTube vid, basically just looks like a skin for the desktop on Windows 7; look at all that lovely wasted space from the useless app bar on the left and how you lose content from the taskbar at the bottom:

















    Video:







    And another:



    Unfortunately people are too busy swooning over the email app to care....

    In any case, I've had enough of them. Microsoft have chosen their way, good luck to them.
    Last edited by theefman; 04-28-2015 at 08:39 AM.
    04-28-2015 08:16 AM
  14. paulsalter's Avatar
    This is taken from a YouTube vid, basically just looks like a skin for the desktop on Windows 7; look at all that lovely wasted space from the useless app bar on the left and how you lose content from the taskbar at the bottom:
    One thing they never show in pictures (or that I have seen), is how much worse that looks when you use your tablet in portrait mode, over half the screen is that app bar
    04-28-2015 09:36 AM
  15. AndyCalling's Avatar
    I will check out those vids when I get home from work.

    The thing with running apps missing from the task bar in touch mode, I am told, is optional so can be fixed easily.

    The 'app bar' or full app list pushing out the user curated live tiles is horrid and counter productive. I am really assuming this is either tweakable already or will be moved before release as this is the opposite concept to the mouse based desktop.

    On desktop one goes to user curated icons first for common tasks, start menu full apps list second for the exotic stuff.

    Why would the Start Screen reverse that approach for touch users? Makes no sense and so there must be a work around or a plan to change it by MS going on somewhere.

    If not, let's hope a talented third party wants to make a fortune by creating a mod to clear up these issues. Anyone know if such is planned?
    04-28-2015 09:41 AM
  16. AndyCalling's Avatar
    One thing they never show in pictures (or that I have seen), is how much worse that looks when you use your tablet in portrait mode, over half the screen is that app bar
    Weird, I assumed it would switch back to the new vertical scrolling mode in portrait (now I hear horizontal is back for landscape) making portrait mode even better. If the full app list is kept like this portrait mode will no longer be viable at all.

    I cannot believe this huge ****-up will be left to stand by MS as it is a large and obvious problem, closely followed by (and probably related to) the missing app selection swipe. Looking at the accelerating shift back to the Win8 way though, I am more confident than I was that MS are not going to leave such blunders to spoil the release.
    04-28-2015 09:50 AM
  17. paulsalter's Avatar
    Weird, I assumed it would switch back to the new vertical scrolling mode in portrait (now I hear horizontal is back for landscape) making portrait mode even better. If the full app list is kept like this portrait mode will no longer be viable at all.

    I cannot believe this huge ****-up will be left to stand by MS as it is a large and obvious problem, closely followed by (and probably related to) the missing app selection swipe. Looking at the accelerating shift back to the Win8 way though, I am more confident than I was that MS are not going to leave such blunders to spoil the release.
    It might have changed since I last used it, a couple of builds ago

    portrait gave the same view as landscape, it was half screen for the all apps section, other half for one column of your apps
    plus the taskbar at the bottom which was almost impossible to use in portrait

    There dosnt seem to be a large number of people using/testing it on tablets, so its hard to get an idea of how things are (most feedback is based on desktop usage)
    04-28-2015 09:54 AM
  18. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Yes, I know. Probably because running dual boot or Hyper-V on a tablet is not very viable so people test on their desktops.

    I use portrait all the time on my Encore, and I love portrait on my 13 inch Yoga 2! It really works well with Win 8 although vertical scrolling would suit portrait best whilst horizontal is clearly the way forward for landscape. This could be a real win for 10 if it can be improved with an auto switching scroll direction, especially if it switched for all Metro apps and not just the Start Screen.

    Nothing like a large, portrait mode 13 inch screen resting on my bicep to wow people at work. Excellently usable; I will not be giving portrait up easily.

    Heck, I'm one for flipping my desktop monitor into portrait when working on A4 documents so portrait mode is essential to get right for me. It can't be that rare amongst users these days, so I find it hard to imagine MS is not going to address this one.
    04-28-2015 10:58 AM
  19. Ousmane Sokona's Avatar
    What Build number are you talking about? I have Build 10061 and most of the issues listed have been corrected.
    04-28-2015 01:38 PM
  20. swanlee's Avatar
    Huh?
    Maybe I'm reading your list wrong but Always visible Taskbar is certainly not corrected. The corrected version of that is for it to not be their at all thus allowing Metro/Desktop apps to truly be in a full screen mode as now they are maximized and not full screen.

    I've seen the vids of the later build versions and none of the real major issues for Win 10 on Tablets is really corrected.

    Still stuck with Taskbar, Still no real full screen browsing experience, still missing a lot of Win 8 swipe gestures, Notification center is missing volume/brightness/Power/Date-time etc that would replace thge functions of the taskbar/charm bars.

    So where are you getting this info that this has all been fixed? Did you hear rumors or did you speak with an MS dev about a build we have not seen yet?
    04-28-2015 01:43 PM
  21. swanlee's Avatar
    It would be confusing for the user if tablet mode is too different from desktop mode. They have to compromise the quality of the user experience in both modes to merge them, but It seems desktop mode will be privileged in Windows 10.
    Well why even have two modes if Tablet mode doesn't really work well on Tablets? Having two separate modes means that each mode should be tailored for the exact device your running it on.
    Last edited by swanlee; 04-28-2015 at 02:08 PM.
    04-28-2015 01:49 PM
  22. swanlee's Avatar
    My info is coming from talking to people who are using the Win10 TP. Are you sure these things are all wrong? Why would TP testers be lying? Sounds unlikely to me.
    If this is where you are getting your info then I'm sorry but they are either lying to you are they don't know what they are talking about.

    I've been running TP since day one on my gen one Surface and am on 10061

    Taskbar is still present at all times, Autohide of the taskbar is barely working and is not a viable option to get rid of the taskbar. Their still is no Full screen Metro IE like Web browsing experience. Their is no charm bars at all in this build or any previous Win 10 builds.

    10061 barely addresses the major issues with Win 10 on tablet and is more of a GUI polish.
    04-28-2015 01:54 PM
  23. b0blight's Avatar
    If this is where you are getting your info then I'm sorry but they are either lying to you are they don't know what they are talking about.

    I've been running TP since day one on my gen one Surface and am on 10061

    Taskbar is still present at all times, Autohide of the taskbar is barely working and is not a viable option to get rid of the taskbar. Their still is no Full screen Metro IE like Web browsing experience. Their is no charm bars at all in this build or any previous Win 10 builds.

    10061 barely addresses the major issues with Win 10 on tablet and is more of a GUI polish.
    Spartan, heck, even all the new modern apps are designed to work with one UI regardless touch or keyboard/mouse. This is done to keep a consistent experience across all devices. There is no "Metro Mode" in Spartan because it is designed to work for both. Someone explain it above already. Please read.
    04-28-2015 07:46 PM
  24. swanlee's Avatar
    Spartan, heck, even all the new modern apps are designed to work with one UI regardless touch or keyboard/mouse. This is done to keep a consistent experience across all devices. There is no "Metro Mode" in Spartan because it is designed to work for both. Someone explain it above already. Please read.
    See the thing is this line of thinking doesn't work on tablets. The currently "designed to work on both" attitude is BS because it is simply not optimized for a real tablet experience. Firefox and regualr IE "work" with touch devices but it certainly isn't optimized for touch like Metro IE was.

    Currently what MS considers designed to work on both = Taskbars, Address bars, Tab bars being always visible always taking up screen space. That is hardly a real Tablet optimized experience when Tablets will always have smaller screens. Right now Web Browsing in Win 10 either on Spartan or IE 20% of screen real estate is taken up by static Taskbars, Address bars, Tab Bars, Navigation bars etc.

    Metro IE gave you 100% of your valuable Tablet screen space for content consumption. And if you wanted to pull out the address bars, tab bars and other options you could do so without it ALWAYS taking up screen space.

    And as far as Metro Apps go they are not FULL Screen in Win 10 they are "maximized with taskbar" not full screen cause the always on Taskbar is still present. This really hampers RDP metro apps like VMware Horizon that will not correctly display full screen RDP sessions unless you hide the taskbar.
    Last edited by swanlee; 04-29-2015 at 08:42 AM.
    04-29-2015 07:22 AM
  25. AndyCalling's Avatar
    This is both worrying and hard to understand. When I ask questions of some TP testers on these forums they confirm that full screen is working fine and even in this thread that Spartan is a Metro app (with IE being only a desktop app now, I presume?). Then others report that such is total nonsense and not true at all. Some say the task bar can now be disabled in the Metro full screen interface, others claim it can't and the only option is to 'hide' it (which would affect both desktop AND Metro interfaces) which would not be suitable at all. Same seems to be true of all the questions I have asked?

    How come understanding is so confused about the Win10 TP? Is this because some testers are on this 'slow ring' version and perhaps these changes are only in the 'fast ring' version? It certainly seems like people are talking about two different Win10 concepts here.

    Really, I'm trying to work out what is the LATEST information here and form it into a concept of how the Win8 mechanisms are being ported to Win10. Very hard when contradiction seems to be the main concept behind Win10.

    Perhaps I shall just have to abandon the whole Win10 idea until the basic concept of the thing is better formed and more communicable. Currently it seems a mess, as even people testing it can't agree on the basics of what they are seeing.

    If anyone has any clue as to what is going on here I am keen to hear it. I can't promise to understand it though.
    04-29-2015 07:28 AM
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