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05-21-2015 11:49 PM
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  1. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    For a business, there is a lot more cost to upgrading than the cost of the license. Labor, testing, compatibility, updating proprietary software, and whatever else goes along with it. Windows 7 is supported until 2020, and by then Windows 10 will not be current, at least not what we are getting soon. Also, large companies often don't jump on a product such as Windows right after it's released.

    I work for a small IT company, and we never did upgrade to Windows 8. We waited until 8.1 was released, and went directly to that from 7. Vista was also completely skipped. And since we're a Microsoft Partner, we do not pay for the licenses, so that cost was not a factor.
    Many companies wait for SP1 before upgrading. 8.1 probably could've been considered "SP1", since it followed the same pattern as the previous SP's in older versions of Windows, the difference being 8.1 pushed out through the Store rather than Windows Update.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-02-2015 12:04 AM
  2. TechAbstract's Avatar
    For a business, there is a lot more cost to upgrading than the cost of the license. Labor, testing, compatibility, updating proprietary software, and whatever else goes along with it. Windows 7 is supported until 2020, and by then Windows 10 will not be current, at least not what we are getting soon. Also, large companies often don't jump on a product such as Windows right after it's released.

    I work for a small IT company, and we never did upgrade to Windows 8. We waited until 8.1 was released, and went directly to that from 7. Vista was also completely skipped. And since we're a Microsoft Partner, we do not pay for the licenses, so that cost was not a factor.
    That's true for companies with propriety software that won't be compatible with Windows 8.X and Windows 10. I don't see much of a difference between 8 and 10 as far as compatibility wise. Luckily many of the companies I do IT for only need Microsoft Office, shared folders, and a browser to do their jobs. Everything is moving to websites and virtual environment.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-02-2015 12:20 AM
  3. EBUK's Avatar
    Here's an interesting article from Venture Beat which gives more details about how iOS, Android, Web, and .NET/Win32 apps will run on various WIndows 10 devices.

    Everything you need to know about porting Android and iOS apps to Windows 10 | VentureBeat | Dev | by Emil Protalinski
    TechAbstract likes this.
    05-02-2015 02:06 AM
  4. sprtfan's Avatar
    Here's an interesting article from Venture Beat which gives more details about how iOS, Android, Web, and .NET/Win32 apps will run on various WIndows 10 devices.

    Everything you need to know about porting Android and iOS apps to Windows 10 | VentureBeat | Dev | by Emil Protalinski
    From the linked article
    While in its documentation Microsoft describes that Project Astoria is meant for building apps for Windows 10 phones, as shown in the table above, your app can technically work on ARM-based Windows 10 phones and small tablets. Windows 10 on these devices includes an Android subsystem, which naturally doesn’t work on non-ARM Windows 10 devices. That also means x86 Windows 10 tablets or phones, for example, won’t be able to run these apps.

    I take this to mean that Android developers would not have the full windows ecosystem to move apps to but just those that run on ARM devices? For the most part, that is phones. I was pretty optimistic about this to start with but this does lower my expectations if I'm reading it right. This limitation does not seem to limit bringing over iOS apps though I think.
    05-02-2015 09:44 AM
  5. falconrap's Avatar
    I think people underestimate the impact to the younger crowd that this will have. My son constantly uses Windows Apps, mostly game, and I occasionally do as well. Games and social media apps are the ones most likely to garner a huge audience when ported and actually be used. With Win32 and .NET apps being able to be recompiled into APX's and be put into the Windows store, allowing them to run sandboxed, without registry issues, on any Desktop capable (i.e. x86 capable) device, we'll see a lot more movement toward using the Windows Store and the apps as packaged there. We already see Adobe moving their stuff over. Apparently banks plan to do it as well due the enhanced security available running as an app. With these running in windows like desktop apps, people will no longer care about the nuances. It's an app/application that runs on Windows and it's in my Start menu or on my task bar. Do I really care if it's a purely Dekstop Win32 app? No. Most won't. But the younger generation will have even less issue making this transition than us older folks.

    Of course, it never ceases to amaze me how lazy programmers can be these days. Just think, if you've been programming code for a significant length of time, then simply moving to eh VS environment, learning C#, and using it to generate code for all OS's seems like an even better route, though I understand that this does take some effort. For smaller developers, however, they shouldn't consider any other route. Why? Because it represents minimal effort to get on and maintain an app that runs on every device, versus developing one set of code for Android and another for iOS, or some combination thereof. I've learned several programming languages over the years (Basic, VB, COBOL, C/C++, CSS/HTML, a little C# and Javascript) and it really boils down to understanding the syntax and form nuances as well as the name of the different core library functions you call. If you can learn one, you can learn others.

    What it boils down to for every developer is this: if you put in the time and effort, your far more likely to be rewarded financially than if you don't.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-02-2015 09:52 AM
  6. srikanth reddy4's Avatar
    Some devs were interviewed about this, and they say that its not worth it, mainly because:

    • it is already easy to port, the problem is the manteinance and support
    • the low market share don't woth the effort


    Sorry, not allowed yet to post links because i'm new

    LINK tip: mashable com TITLE How developers really feel about Microsoft welcoming iOS and Android

    How can u think that the market share is low.......windows 10 is not only about phones.its about PC,tabs,laptops and every windows device.we have already seen a mobile app like viber was running on surface i guess......so windows 10 apps will have big market share than windows phones present share
    Last edited by srikanth reddy4; 05-02-2015 at 10:43 AM.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-02-2015 09:56 AM
  7. rhapdog's Avatar
    Of course, it never ceases to amaze me how lazy programmers can be these days. Just think, if you've been programming code for a significant length of time, then simply moving to eh VS environment, learning C#, and using it to generate code for all OS's seems like an even better route, though I understand that this does take some effort. For smaller developers, however, they shouldn't consider any other route. Why? Because it represents minimal effort to get on and maintain an app that runs on every device, versus developing one set of code for Android and another for iOS, or some combination thereof. I've learned several programming languages over the years (Basic, VB, COBOL, C/C++, CSS/HTML, a little C# and Javascript) and it really boils down to understanding the syntax and form nuances as well as the name of the different core library functions you call. If you can learn one, you can learn others.
    As I had stated in another post on the forums... The lazy are usually unsuccessful. Those willing to go the extra mile and work hard become the most successful. That goes for any career, not just programming.

    I know what you mean about programming languages. I've used C, C++, Objective C, C#, PHP, JavaScript, Cobol, Basic, Pascal, Assembly, Ruby, Lisp, Perl, Fortran, and a number of small, miscellaneous obscure ones. Learning a new one isn't hard. If you've got a good programming knowledge foundation, picking up a new language can be done over the weekend for the great programmers, and a good programmer can do it in a week. Even slow programmers can pick it up within a few weeks without too much issue if they aren't lazy.

    "Developers" that think it's too hard to pick up a new programming language aren't real developers at all, and were either 1) never properly trained in the art, or 2) don't have the raw talent to do it. In either case, they should take some more study or give it up.

    So many people become "developers" as a teenager. They learn one language and believe the world will fall down around them if they are forced to abandon that language for something else. One of the things I loved about programming was there was always something new to learn. New libraries, new languages being introduced, new way to program a UI. It was a lot harder to layout 80 columns of text on 24 lines of display than it is on these displays of today. Information had to be organized extremely well to find it in the layout, and things had to be abbreviated, but in a way that it was clear what was being abbreviated. Just tab, enter, backspace and arrow keys for navigation. No mouse, no touch, no pen, no touchpad, no trackball. And you had to load your program with a stack of punch cards, and make sure it could fit in 2K of RAM or less. Now I'm just rambling like the old guy that I am. Time to put the kids down for a nap and spend a bit of time with my young wife.
    EBUK, dkediger, psiu_glen and 3 others like this.
    05-02-2015 12:48 PM
  8. neo158's Avatar
    From the linked article
    While in its documentation Microsoft describes that Project Astoria is meant for building apps for Windows 10 phones, as shown in the table above, your app can technically work on ARM-based Windows 10 phones and small tablets. Windows 10 on these devices includes an Android subsystem, which naturally doesn’t work on non-ARM Windows 10 devices. That also means x86 Windows 10 tablets or phones, for example, won’t be able to run these apps.

    I take this to mean that Android developers would not have the full windows ecosystem to move apps to but just those that run on ARM devices? For the most part, that is phones. I was pretty optimistic about this to start with but this does lower my expectations if I'm reading it right. This limitation does not seem to limit bringing over iOS apps though I think.
    iOS apps would have the same limitations because iOS devices are ARM based just like all but one of the Android devices. This isn't really a limitation because the vast majority of Android devices are ARM based anyway.
    Laura Knotek and prasath1234 like this.
    05-02-2015 01:56 PM
  9. EBUK's Avatar
    I take this to mean that Android developers would not have the full windows ecosystem to move apps to but just those that run on ARM devices? For the most part, that is phones.
    That is how I read it. iOS apps look as if they will run on all Windows platforms, although there are / may be issues with scaling.
    05-02-2015 01:56 PM
  10. Spectrum90's Avatar
    That is how I read it. iOS apps look as if they will run on all Windows platforms, although there are / may be issues with scaling.
    Yes. iOS apps run everywhere, Android apps only on Windows Mobile.
    05-02-2015 02:17 PM
  11. moorken's Avatar
    this might be a barrier which microsoft will need to break, this issue of app availability has also brought blackberry down on the mobile market.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-03-2015 04:23 AM
  12. moorken's Avatar
    Maybe they should actually give some prizes to developers when they port their apps, its also something which blackberry was doing when they released Blackberry OS 10. offcourse the ones who jump on the wagon first will be the smaller companies, so the best apps might still stay unported
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-03-2015 04:24 AM
  13. neo158's Avatar
    this might be a barrier which microsoft will need to break, this issue of app availability has also brought blackberry down on the mobile market.
    That shouldn't be that hard considering there's an Atom based Android Smartphone, all Microsoft would need to do is bring the Android subsystem to the x86 version of Windows 10
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-03-2015 06:26 PM
  14. Mohammad Arshad's Avatar
    Its not always about Lazy developers. It the bosses/managers who are most of the times not interested in having a WP/WinRT app at all. My company makes iOS and Android apps and despite my best attempts to convince my boss to have a WP version of one our popular apps, she isnt convinced yet. Fingers crossed for the post Win 10 scenario


    EDIT: If it isnt clear, I am a developer and I work across all 3 platforms. But unfortunately WP/WinRT and to an extent WPF skills arent really in demand here in HK. Its all iOS and Android.
    05-04-2015 12:40 PM
  15. scandiskwindows9x's Avatar
    This thing isn't surprising, in fact I think devs lacks of will power for, do it I'm doing an app for windows phone but on app studio and I'm, not programmer I'm accountant but been easy to create the app so now I notice the app dev are so lazy as for port their apps so will be condemned to have not good, apps and not because the os don't allow it's exclusively laziness of worldwide developers also I don't know how, wants that an company that do applications does net profits, if, are missing an segment of market?
    Last edited by scandiskwindows9x; 05-04-2015 at 01:17 PM.
    05-04-2015 01:06 PM
  16. rhapdog's Avatar
    Its not always about Lazy developers. It the bosses/managers
    So true.
    xandros9 and ajayden like this.
    05-04-2015 01:34 PM
  17. wokaz80's Avatar
    I think people underestimate the impact to the younger crowd that this will have. My son constantly uses Windows Apps, mostly game, and I occasionally do as well. Games and social media apps are the ones most likely to garner a huge audience when ported and actually be used. With Win32 and .NET apps being able to be recompiled into APX's and be put into the Windows store, allowing them to run sandboxed, without registry issues, on any Desktop capable (i.e. x86 capable) device, we'll see a lot more movement toward using the Windows Store and the apps as packaged there. We already see Adobe moving their stuff over. Apparently banks plan to do it as well due the enhanced security available running as an app. With these running in windows like desktop apps, people will no longer care about the nuances. It's an app/application that runs on Windows and it's in my Start menu or on my task bar. Do I really care if it's a purely Dekstop Win32 app? No. Most won't. But the younger generation will have even less issue making this transition than us older folks.

    Of course, it never ceases to amaze me how lazy programmers can be these days. Just think, if you've been programming code for a significant length of time, then simply moving to eh VS environment, learning C#, and using it to generate code for all OS's seems like an even better route, though I understand that this does take some effort. For smaller developers, however, they shouldn't consider any other route. Why? Because it represents minimal effort to get on and maintain an app that runs on every device, versus developing one set of code for Android and another for iOS, or some combination thereof. I've learned several programming languages over the years (Basic, VB, COBOL, C/C++, CSS/HTML, a little C# and Javascript) and it really boils down to understanding the syntax and form nuances as well as the name of the different core library functions you call. If you can learn one, you can learn others.

    What it boils down to for every developer is this: if you put in the time and effort, your far more likely to be rewarded financially than if you don't.
    like someone here said, the issue is not lazy programmer, it's the boss. usually the boss would think it's not worth it to port their app to WP considering they believe they need more budget to maintain the app, more budget to market the app, and so on, so they just focus on iOS and android.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-04-2015 10:26 PM
  18. ajayden's Avatar
    I am involved in apps development for enterprise clients. Wherever possible, I have always recommended Windows ecosystem to my customers as they can get a full experience on various devices. Most of the developers (including managers and Directors) in my firm are always recommending iOS and Android, even going to the extend of developing new work around for things that can be done very easily on Windows.

    But happy so far that they have accepted my project recommendations and implemented them in various projects for 8 years now.
    Laura Knotek and Avi Anand like this.
    05-04-2015 10:41 PM
  19. Spectrum90's Avatar
    That shouldn't be that hard considering there's an Atom based Android Smartphone, all Microsoft would need to do is bring the Android subsystem to the x86 version of Windows 10
    Maybe Microsoft shouldn't increase the incentives to develop Android apps for tablets. Windows with iOS apps has a good chance of beating Android in the tablet market.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-05-2015 01:14 AM
  20. neo158's Avatar
    Maybe Microsoft shouldn't increase the incentives to develop Android apps for tablets. Windows with iOS apps has a good chance of beating Android in the tablet market.
    Why shouldn't Android apps be available on the x86 version of Windows 10. AFAIK iOS apps only target ARM anyway so the only way Windows with iOS apps would beat Android in the tablet market would be on Windows RT based devices.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-05-2015 02:59 AM
  21. a5cent's Avatar
    AFAIK iOS apps only target ARM anyway so the only way Windows with iOS apps would beat Android in the tablet market would be on Windows RT based devices.
    Since iOS apps are recompiled for WP anyway, it doesn't matter what CPU architecture the original iOS app targeted. If MS wants iOS apps on x86 Windows tablets, there is nothing stopping MS from adding an extra compiler setting (assuming it's not already available) so developers can choose which CPU architecture to build the app for.
    Anyway, for Android apps we can run into the exact same situation, since not every Android app is implemented in (CPU architecture neutral) Java.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-05-2015 06:43 AM
  22. Norris Rochelle's Avatar
    That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. How could someone say it's not worth it when all you have to do is port it and edit a few things. It's definitely worth it because there's significantly less work to bring their app to an emerging and consumer hungry market. It's fool proof.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-05-2015 06:58 AM
  23. GCrane1982's Avatar
    From what I understand this is how it will work.

    Android apps that use the standard android API's can simply be recompiled as a .appx package and submitted to the windows store without any modifications to the code and it will run and work on Windows Phone I'm the exact same way as it does on Android. If they use non standard API's or want to utilize live tiles or notifications on Windows Phone they will need to alter their code slightly however I am led to believe that this can be do quickly and easily. Note Android apps will only work on the Phone and not on the desktop or Xbox.

    It is the same for iOS apps however they can be run on the desktop.

    Taking this into considerations devs could easily port their apps over and have them available in the windows phone store within a matter of minutes, albeit without live tiles and notifications. For games and basic apps this would be a no brainer. Even if they had to spend a couple of hours to get it working properly. A couple of hours work to target an additional 70+ million users would make sense for a lot of devs and large corporate entities.

    Yes there will always be companies/devs that hate MS I.e. Google and Snapchat that wont pot their apps out of principle, however the majority will see this worth their time.

    I think you will see alot of devs do a simple port of their app without any Windows Phone feature support (Live tiles, Notifications) however as market share increases they will see further value in the customer base and slowly introduce these features over time.
    neo158 likes this.
    05-05-2015 07:17 AM
  24. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Why shouldn't Android apps be available on the x86 version of Windows 10. AFAIK iOS apps only target ARM anyway so the only way Windows with iOS apps would beat Android in the tablet market would be on Windows RT based devices.
    Google is adding support for Android apps to Chromebooks. It's not a good idea to make Android universal.
    iOS apps run on phones, tablets and PCs. Windows 10 with iOS apps should be enough to kill the Chromebook and beat Android tablets in the high-end and enterprise segments.
    a5cent and prasath1234 like this.
    05-05-2015 09:34 AM
  25. ohgood's Avatar
    That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. How could someone say it's not worth it when all you have to do is port it and edit a few things. It's definitely worth it because there's significantly less work to bring their app to an emerging and consumer hungry market. It's fool proof.

    except it's doubling (at a minimum) the workload on the developer for each platform added.


    android and ios split the worldwide market roughtly down the middle, with wp occupying 3-4% of what's left. will that developer's doubling of workload be worth the customers he might gain from the 4% ?
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-05-2015 01:12 PM
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