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05-21-2015 11:49 PM
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  1. jleebiker's Avatar
    except it's doubling (at a minimum) the workload on the developer for each platform added.


    android and ios split the worldwide market roughtly down the middle, with wp occupying 3-4% of what's left. will that developer's doubling of workload be worth the customers he might gain from the 4% ?
    How is it doubling the workload? The developer writes the whole thing in their native platform of choice. Makes sure it runs. Does all the sanity checks in their native platform. According to the docs, as long as they are using standard libraries, no tweaks need to be made. Just check a box on the final compile to generate a WP version and ship that to the store.

    ​How is this doubling the workload?
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-05-2015 04:46 PM
  2. ohgood's Avatar
    How is it doubling the workload? The developer writes the whole thing in their native platform of choice. Makes sure it runs. Does all the sanity checks in their native platform. According to the docs, as long as they are using standard libraries, no tweaks need to be made. Just check a box on the final compile to generate a WP version and ship that to the store.

    ​How is this doubling the workload?

    "just check a box on the final compile"



    given that it's not expected to be live for another 3-4 months, there might be more to it than that.

    then there is support, which will definitely not be a check box option.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-05-2015 08:18 PM
  3. ajayden's Avatar
    "just check a box on the final compile"



    given that it's not expected to be live for another 3-4 months, there might be more to it than that.

    then there is support, which will definitely not be a check box option.
    Just think of this scenario : I am an Android developer and I want to develop for iOS. What do I do?
    I develop code in Java/C++ for Android and then go through the hassle of coding again Xcode.

    And then I want to develop for Windows Phone. I just need to select the apk and the code is mostly done for me. I just need to make minor tweaks based on the project.

    So, you can see which is easier.
    05-06-2015 12:51 AM
  4. startrunner's Avatar
    The ones "Interviewed" by Mashable are indie developers and while having them would be nice, they are not as relevant as bigger services and brands. We have our own independent developers developing exclusively for Windows, some of which are very talented. I'm not worried.
    05-06-2015 03:08 AM
  5. ohgood's Avatar
    Just think of this scenario : I am an Android developer and I want to develop for iOS. What do I do?
    I develop code in Java/C++ for Android and then go through the hassle of coding again Xcode.

    And then I want to develop for Windows Phone. I just need to select the apk and the code is mostly done for me. I just need to make minor tweaks based on the project.

    So, you can see which is easier.
    We don't know if it is that easy, yet.

    If it is, congratulations that was easy!

    Had you worked harder to develop on your competitors (iOS vs android) platform, you would have doubled your potential customer base instead of only 4%.
    05-06-2015 06:31 PM
  6. plot_almighty's Avatar
    Probably been said, but the unified Windows Store means apps that run on Windows Phone will run on Windows 10. On PC. PCs have Windows, and 85%+ of the laptop/desktop market.

    So given the easy app port situation, if its indeed as easy as they say, and the unified store, deciding to not port existing iOS or Android apps is the same as saying they don't want or need the massive install base.

    Hell, even if the Windows 10 install base adds up only to 10-18% in the first year, which I doubt it'll be that small, that's still roughly the same, if not a bit less, than the market share of the iPhone.

    I'm not experienced in markets, coding, or business, but I would think app developers could hardly ignore that kind of potential for a small workload.

    But that's a lot of "ifs" to meet.
    05-07-2015 08:47 PM
  7. ajayden's Avatar
    We don't know if it is that easy, yet.

    If it is, congratulations that was easy!

    Had you worked harder to develop on your competitors (iOS vs android) platform, you would have doubled your potential customer base instead of only 4%.
    I develop on iOS and Android too but then lesser on Android because there is no security for my corporate customers.
    05-08-2015 08:15 PM
  8. ohgood's Avatar
    Probably been said, but the unified Windows Store means apps that run on Windows Phone will run on Windows 10. On PC. PCs have Windows, and 85%+ of the laptop/desktop market.

    So given the easy app port situation, if its indeed as easy as they say, and the unified store, deciding to not port existing iOS or Android apps is the same as saying they don't want or need the massive install base.

    Hell, even if the Windows 10 install base adds up only to 10-18% in the first year, which I doubt it'll be that small, that's still roughly the same, if not a bit less, than the market share of the iPhone.

    I'm not experienced in markets, coding, or business, but I would think app developers could hardly ignore that kind of potential for a small workload.

    But that's a lot of "ifs" to meet.


    i have the whole android market at my fingertips, but can't think of one i want too run on both the desktop and phone, besides chrome, and it's only because of the synced passwords and bookmarks.

    can you think of a few?
    05-08-2015 09:09 PM
  9. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    i have the whole android market at my fingertips, but can't think of one i want too run on both the desktop and phone, besides chrome, and it's only because of the synced passwords and bookmarks.

    can you think of a few?
    I'd like Windows Phone to have more browser apps. Firefox and Chrome would be nice to have on Windows Phone.
    05-08-2015 10:33 PM
  10. MaxyBley's Avatar
    We all just have ti wait and see how this will turn out.a
    Laura Knotek and a5cent like this.
    05-09-2015 12:43 AM
  11. neo158's Avatar
    i have the whole android market at my fingertips, but can't think of one i want too run on both the desktop and phone, besides chrome, and it's only because of the synced passwords and bookmarks.

    can you think of a few?
    Yet Windows 10 will have access to WP, iOS and Android apps, should developers of the latter two decide to port them across. I can't think of any apps and games off the top of my head that I would want on the desktop but that doesn't mean there aren't any.
    05-09-2015 05:14 AM
  12. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    1 billion installed base x 10% = a nice big number. how many of those are actually using a mobile device though ?
    It's not relevant as, once 'ported' his app will run on ANY of these devices equally.
    05-09-2015 09:54 AM
  13. rhapdog's Avatar
    Yet Windows 10 will have access to WP, iOS and Android apps, should developers of the latter two decide to port them across. I can't think of any apps and games off the top of my head that I would want on the desktop but that doesn't mean there aren't any.
    I can think of many games that I currently don't play, because I'd rather play them on my laptop. Picked up one the other day that was universal, and I prefer the bigger screen for games. Some time wasting games are okay on the phone while waiting at the doctor's office, but that's rare that I need to do that.

    Hungry Shark Evolution is much better on my laptop's touchscreen than it is on the phone, but I'd rather the games also utilize a keyboard option or a gamepad option. As I understand it, this should be automatic or at least easier with Windows 10.
    05-10-2015 09:38 AM
  14. Florin_Anghel's Avatar
    Just think of this scenario : I am an Android developer and I want to develop for iOS. What do I do?
    I develop code in Java/C++ for Android and then go through the hassle of coding again Xcode.

    And then I want to develop for Windows Phone. I just need to select the apk and the code is mostly done for me. I just need to make minor tweaks based on the project.

    So, you can see which is easier.
    You are so wrong! By far for Windows phone is not like this, visual studio is lacking. Remember Microsoft is full of promises
    EBUK likes this.
    05-10-2015 09:46 AM
  15. ohgood's Avatar
    It's not relevant as, once 'ported' his app will run on ANY of these devices equally.
    now all you have to do is convince all those developers that they will benefit from doing so, and not end up with a support nightmare for very few paying customers.
    05-10-2015 12:01 PM
  16. neo158's Avatar
    I can think of many games that I currently don't play, because I'd rather play them on my laptop. Picked up one the other day that was universal, and I prefer the bigger screen for games. Some time wasting games are okay on the phone while waiting at the doctor's office, but that's rare that I need to do that.

    Hungry Shark Evolution is much better on my laptop's touchscreen than it is on the phone, but I'd rather the games also utilize a keyboard option or a gamepad option. As I understand it, this should be automatic or at least easier with Windows 10.
    Agreed, there are certain games that are going to be better on larger touchscreens or with a KB & M.
    05-11-2015 11:13 AM
  17. neo158's Avatar
    You are so wrong! By far for Windows phone is not like this, visual studio is lacking. Remember Microsoft is full of promises
    I suppose you've used Visual Studio on Windows then, if you had then you'd know that:

    1. It's far from lacking, if you think it is then tell us what features you think it lacks and
    2. Android and iOS conversion is exactly like that, the software required plugs into Visual Studio and allows developers to import and convert their apps into VS projects for editing, compiling and adding to the Store.
    05-11-2015 11:19 AM
  18. rhapdog's Avatar
    You are so wrong! By far for Windows phone is not like this, visual studio is lacking. Remember Microsoft is full of promises
    I'd like to know exactly what IDE you use (probably none from the looks of that statement) that you could assume Visual Studio is lacking. It is hands down the most comprehensive IDE for features, ease of use, and allowing development for the most languages and platforms. The only other IDE that comes close is UEStudio, and the only reason I give Visual Studio the edge here is that Visual Studio has better integrated debugging.

    The ONLY edge that an IDE like Eclipse has over either one of those two is that it runs on Linux and Mac, and the 2 I mentioned only run on Windows. What can I say... Eclipse, while a competent IDE, is quite slow and cumbersome when compared to both Visual Studio and UEStudio. Of course, you get what you pay for. Linux fanboys that use Linux because of a hatred for Microsoft (see also, can't afford to legitimately purchase Windows therefore bashes Microsoft) will simply favor whatever IDE will run on Linux and say it is the best and all others are lacking.

    I've used pretty much every IDE out there that can be run on either Linux and/or Windows, and I have done in-depth comparisons of every one, so you can't tell me or any other developer that has actually taken the time to seriously investigate the value of different IDEs that Visual Studio is lacking in any category.

    I've seen a lot of "wanna-be" developers out there that insist on using Eclipse because they say it is the best "free" IDE out there. While this is true, I have learned that to be truly efficient, which means less time wasted working on your code and more time making money, you need to make a small investment that will more than pay for itself in time saved. This is one reason I was able to afford to retire at the age of 45 instead of working another 20 years. I've done my bit.

    If I've insulted a few people that use Eclipse "because it's free", well, I won't apologize. If you use Eclipse because it is what the team you work with uses and you are required to for your job, well, then don't get insulted. I wasn't talking to you. You aren't doing it because it's free. If you're using it for some other reason, or because you were unaware of the added efficiency with Visual Studio or UEStudio, I'd recommend you get the free trial for each of those and truly explore all the possibilities each has to offer during the trial period. If they don't increase your productivity, I'd be very surprised and quite possibly doubt that you gave them a full, in-depth, hands-on trial while learning all the advanced features that can make you more productive.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Speaking of productivity, yeah, I'm going to talk about programming languages now. Why is it that apps run so smooth on WP and iOS, while on Android's mightiest flagships they stumble? Because of the language SOME of the apps are programmed in. JAVA. I hate Java. I love coffee, but hate Java. Why? Because running programs in Java is just about as bad as running a program in BASIC. It's an interpretive language, and a very high level, and it is very inefficient on SO many levels. It's also a security nightmare.

    Programs in C++ can be fast, efficient, and smooth, just to be slowed down by a Java program running in the background and hogging all the resources.

    iOS is smooth, because all the programs are written in Objective C. WP programs can be written in C++ or C#. All Microsoft had to do was to take the Objective C with the iOS API calls and convert it into C# or C++ with Windows API calls. iOS conversion therefore is much simpler than Android conversion.

    For Android apps written entirely in C++, Microsoft could do the same, and just convert the API calls. However, Android apps written in Java or even in part written in Java must be placed in a container, because there is no efficient way to convert Java to a lower level language.

    Java is closer to human language than machine code, C, C++, C#, and Objective C are all closer to the machine language than human language. Java is easier for humans to write, but the different C languages are easier for the computer to understand and more efficient for them. (yeah, I put that on an extremely basic level to keep from losing all the school kids and non-programmers out there.)

    If I were a developer still today (happily retired, though), and wanted to make the most efficient program possible with the least possible effort, I'd want to find a way to program in Objective C, convert it to C++ to use for Windows Phone and Android. Once Microsoft comes out with that Visual Studio that will allow me to write in C++ with a "shared API" and cross-compilers that will allow me to compile for all three at once, then that would almost entice me to return to programming, just for the fun of it. I believe Microsoft is working on just such a solution, and it will make life easier for those who currently maintain code for iOS and Android to have only ONE code to maintain, and expand to universal apps as well, with that same one code.

    Doesn't exist yet, but just like Windows 8 was a step towards 8.1, and 8.1 a step towards 10, what they are doing now to invite iOS and Android developers on board is just a stepping stone towards exactly this.

    One IDE, One Programming Language, One "shared API" for all devices and platforms, that is Microsoft's ultimate target with all this I believe.
    neo158, a5cent, Harrie-S and 1 others like this.
    05-11-2015 02:25 PM
  19. Chinocop's Avatar
    I want to jump in here. I just spoke to my wife about this. She works at Disney, and her department make their mobile apps for the theme parks and resorts. I asked her if Disney is going to recompile for W10. She said there's no way because of all of the analytics involved, and that it would be too much work. This has to be troubling for Microsoft because this is a major developer who has no interest in deploying to Windows. The thing is that Disney uses HockeyApp which MSFT owns! Microsoft has a lot of evangelizing to do because even big developments shops and their own tools are biased against them.

    I need to add a couple of more points. I truly believe on the mobile/phone (consumer) side MSFT is dead in the water; they are too little too late. Where MSFT will shine is on the enterprise side. Hololens will be immensely popular with businesses. This will cause developers to flock to the platform. I've said this millions of times the consumer is way too fickle. MSFT build complex business software. Trying to change that culture and dumb down your product so that your grandmother can use it is a losing proposition. People like shiny Apples on their hardware. They don't care about being able to enter a lead in Outlook so it shows up in SalesForce. That's why Apple succeeds because they understand consumers not businesses.
    Last edited by Chinocop; 05-13-2015 at 01:12 PM.
    05-13-2015 12:55 PM
  20. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I want to jump in here. I just spoke to my wife about this. She works at Disney, and her department make their mobile apps for the theme parks and resorts. I asked her if Disney is going to recompile for W10. She said there's no way because of all of the analytics involved, and that it would be too much work. This has to be troubling for Microsoft because this is a major developer who has no interest in deploying to Windows. The thing is that Disney uses HockeyApp which MSFT owns! Microsoft has a lot of evangelizing to do because even big developments shops and their own tools are biased against them.

    I need to add a couple of more points. I truly believe on the mobile/phone (consumer) side MSFT is dead in the water; they are too little too late. Where MSFT will shine is on the enterprise side. Hololens will be immensely popular with businesses. This will cause developers to flock to the platform. I've said this millions of times the consumer is way too fickle. MSFT build complex business software. Trying to change that culture and dumb down your product so that your grandmother can use it is a losing proposition. People like shiny Apples on their hardware. They don't care about being able to enter a lead in Outlook so it shows up in SalesForce. That's why Apple succeeds because they understand consumers not businesses.
    I'm not a developer, so I didn't know about HockeyApp. That's what MixRadio is using for the Android beta app. I had no idea what it is or that Microsoft owns it.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 (2013) using Tapatalk
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-13-2015 02:02 PM
  21. coip's Avatar
    She said there's no way because of all of the analytics involved, and that it would be too much work.
    I don't understand what this means. What are all of the "analytics" that are involved? And what, exactly, would be "too much work" for one of the largest companies in the world to take on? If Microsoft has done what they claim to have done, as far as porting iOS or Android apps, it sounds like it would be minimal effort, at most, for them to spin that over into a universal Windows 10 app. Furthermore, Disney already makes a ton of apps for Windows 8/RT and Windows Phone 8.
    05-14-2015 12:34 PM
  22. Luuthian's Avatar
    Certain app developers will say this no matter what because, no matter how easy MS makes it for them, they're still a smaller team with limited resources and they simply may not want a third platform to maintain in their mix.

    While the feedback from them shouldn't be ignored it should also be taken with with some skepticism. What you're seeing is not a wholly accurate representation of the developer market. Wait and see what larger, more well known developers do with their products first. They'll be looking for opportunities to expand their product reach in most cases, so if they feel WP10 is worth their time then other developers will follow suit with time.

    But really, the actual concern here shouldn't be the comments of a few developers, big or small... It should be Microsoft's ability to market the new Windows Phones to begin with. No one but MS is responsible for the growth of their phone's maketshare. It's not the apps that will sell the phone, it's the branding and the word of mouth. Once MS has that under control and the user base grows developers will come no matter what their previous opinions may have been.
    05-14-2015 03:17 PM
  23. Chinocop's Avatar
    I don't understand what this means. What are all of the "analytics" that are involved? And what, exactly, would be "too much work" for one of the largest companies in the world to take on? If Microsoft has done what they claim to have done, as far as porting iOS or Android apps, it sounds like it would be minimal effort, at most, for them to spin that over into a universal Windows 10 app. Furthermore, Disney already makes a ton of apps for Windows 8/RT and Windows Phone 8.
    I don't know what type of analytics they weave into their phone apps so I couldn't tell you. Disney has disparate departments so while you do see games produced for Windows; you don't see other apps like Park and Resorts. If you go to Disneyland or Disney World, you will notice that most people carry around iPhones then a smaller set of customers carry Android. They just develop what their customers use. FYI, the Disney CEO sits on Apple's board of directors as well.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-14-2015 05:55 PM
  24. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I don't know what type of analytics they weave into their phone apps so I couldn't tell you. Disney has disparate departments so while you do see games produced for Windows; you don't see other apps like Park and Resorts. If you go to Disneyland or Disney World, you will notice that most people carry around iPhones then a smaller set of customers carry Android. They just develop what their customers use. FYI, the Disney CEO sits on Apple's board of directors as well.
    Oral B toothbrushes have a Disney app for kids to let them know how long to brush their teeth. It's iOS and Android only at this time.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 (2013) using Tapatalk
    05-14-2015 07:31 PM
  25. syspry's Avatar
    I need to give a big 2 thumbs down to the people in threads like this who are so quick to just call the devs who aren't interested "lazy". It's been made quite clear by most of the dev responses I've read so far that it's a simple (and much more believable and reasonable than "lazy") matter of time and money vs reward. They're running a business and time+money vs reward is how you think when you run a business. Responding to their reasons with "you're lazy" is a petulant accusation.

    EBUK posted this link on the first page of this thread and it explains the situation well enough to deserve a bump
    How developers really feel about Microsoft welcoming iOS and Android
    neo158 and Luuthian like this.
    05-15-2015 10:23 AM
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