06-06-2015 11:12 PM
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  1. mikepalma's Avatar
    05-22-2015 06:22 PM
  2. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    No matter how you sugar coat it, I don't like Windows 8.1. I still feel it's a mess of a OS, broken up between a desktop and a start menu and Microsoft's wet dream of Windows as an ipad.
    I'm sorry but it doesn't feel anything like that to me. iOS feels a lot more like a desktop OS to me, just one with very few features. OTOH, W8 actually embraces a new paradigm that is equally at home in any environment.
    I will agree to disagree some things are nice in 8.1 but, the over all breakup between the 2 parts of it, is a letdown for me and I don't choose to use it because of my dislike for it. This is MY choice.
    Which, I assume, is your admission that there is no logic in this opinion, that it is largely subjective?
    I am not going to get into a trolling match with you on why YOU think Windows 8.1 is so much better than Windows 10. I feel your wrong but, like everything I post here, this is MY OPTION and ONLY mine.
    I want to be convinced, I really do, but posts like this simply reinforce me belief that W10 is all about making people feel better about Windows, rather than actually making Windows better.
    [QUOTE}If you feel 8.1 is better, THEN DONT INSTALL 10 when released and bash it here because you think it's better. I think that would be better for everyone on this site.[/QUOTE}
    Why? Should we only say nice things and put up with every bit of garbage that is thrust in our faces without complaint? That sounds like the world kindergarten children live in to me, not the real world adults inhabit.
    920Walker and Kram Sacul like this.
    05-24-2015 01:43 AM
  3. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    I've come to realise exactly what my problem is with W10. It has taken what was largely a seamless experience in W8 of moving between tablet and desktop, where the sizes of things adjusted to the size of the display and scrollbars only appeared when you needed them, to something that must be one thing or the other and requires the user to intervene to make it so. It is hugely inconsistent and far less intuitive than W8.

    Let me explain what I mean. With W8, my tablet works like a tablet when it's on it's own and like a teeny-weeny laptop when it's attached to my Universal Keyboard and Arc Touch Mouse but the experience is consistent. e.g. Regardless of how I am using my tablet, I close Metro apps by swiping down and desktop applications in the traditional way.

    W10, however, works differently depending on which mode I select. So now there are different ways to close every app and every desktop application that iare dependent on the "mode" W10 is in. In tablet mode, the only way to close anything is by swiping down from the top but in desktop mode (if that's what it is called) if I try and do that, I end up with a window that sits underneath the Taskbar. It might not be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that the close and unmaximise buttons are still visible in tablet mode, they just don't work. This means it is not always immediately obvious whether you are in tablet mode or not, which leads to me pressing a close button 10 times before I remember that I have to swipe Photoshop down from the top of the screen to close it, for the first time in the 20 years I have owned PCs. W8 doesn't present this problem because it offers a more consistent experience - the close button ALWAYS works and swiping down only works for "metro" apps, which look very different to desktop applications, so there is no confusion.

    It goes deeper than that, though. Tablet mode affects everything. I can't have an unmaxmised desktop application in Tablet mode. Even small dialogue windows, like Sound settings from Control Panel, open full screen with the window drawn in the top-left corner. If I want to have two Explorer windows open so I can D'n'D files, I have to use split-screen, previously a Metro only feature (where it actually made sense), or get out of tablet mode.

    Overall, it is the simple notion that I have to use it one way or the other, where previously I was able to choose what worked best for me - a little bit of Metro goodness with the rock-solid familiarity of the good, old desktop when I needed it. But that's now been taken away and I'm not happy. The fact that I have to re-enter my password when I wake it up from sleep also annoys the hell outta me but I'll save that for another rant.
    05-24-2015 02:22 AM
  4. Yazen's Avatar
    I've come to realise exactly what my problem is with W10. It has taken what was largely a seamless experience in W8 of moving between tablet and desktop, where the sizes of things adjusted to the size of the display and scrollbars only appeared when you needed them, to something that must be one thing or the other and requires the user to intervene to make it so. It is hugely inconsistent and far less intuitive than W8.

    Let me explain what I mean. With W8, my tablet works like a tablet when it's on it's own and like a teeny-weeny laptop when it's attached to my Universal Keyboard and Arc Touch Mouse but the experience is consistent. e.g. Regardless of how I am using my tablet, I close Metro apps by swiping down and desktop applications in the traditional way.

    W10, however, works differently depending on which mode I select. So now there are different ways to close every app and every desktop application that iare dependent on the "mode" W10 is in. In tablet mode, the only way to close anything is by swiping down from the top but in desktop mode (if that's what it is called) if I try and do that, I end up with a window that sits underneath the Taskbar. It might not be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that the close and unmaximise buttons are still visible in tablet mode, they just don't work. This means it is not always immediately obvious whether you are in tablet mode or not, which leads to me pressing a close button 10 times before I remember that I have to swipe Photoshop down from the top of the screen to close it, for the first time in the 20 years I have owned PCs. W8 doesn't present this problem because it offers a more consistent experience - the close button ALWAYS works and swiping down only works for "metro" apps, which look very different to desktop applications, so there is no confusion.

    It goes deeper than that, though. Tablet mode affects everything. I can't have an unmaxmised desktop application in Tablet mode. Even small dialogue windows, like Sound settings from Control Panel, open full screen with the window drawn in the top-left corner. If I want to have two Explorer windows open so I can D'n'D files, I have to use split-screen, previously a Metro only feature (where it actually made sense), or get out of tablet mode.

    Overall, it is the simple notion that I have to use it one way or the other, where previously I was able to choose what worked best for me - a little bit of Metro goodness with the rock-solid familiarity of the good, old desktop when I needed it. But that's now been taken away and I'm not happy. The fact that I have to re-enter my password when I wake it up from sleep also annoys the hell outta me but I'll save that for another rant.
    There used to be a policy for password required after waking, hopefully it wasn't removed.

    Like I said before, the new universal approach is more consistent but will be less intuitive xD

    Microsoft has distinguished the different interfaces, might be a PITA for someone who is using tablet mode to do desktop work.

    You think the UI is too segregated for someone who is considering a SP3?
    05-24-2015 12:40 PM
  5. sweatshopking's Avatar
    You hate it because it, like all things win 10, is a huge regression to appease the masses of morons.
    hotphil and sufferingpikes like this.
    05-25-2015 04:38 AM
  6. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    Basically, yes. It feels like all the mistakes they neatly side-stepped with Windows 8 brought back to make those who refused to adapt to W8 pay for their intransigence (and those idiots seem to be lapping it up).

    There used to be a policy for password required after waking, hopefully it wasn't removed.
    it seems to be gone, or moved somewhere I can't find. One of the few good things about OS X is that if your Mac goes to sleep, you get a small window of time to wake it up without a password but if you leave it for more than a minute or so, you have to put it in again.
    Like I said before, the new universal approach is more consistent but will be less intuitive xD
    But it' snot consistent because you have to learn a different way in each mode. Imagine someone who uses W10 on their desktop/laptop for a year or two and then buys a tablet. His tablet will feel like a completely different OS because all the things he is used to doing won't work in tablet mode. OTOH, in Windows 8 there is 100% consistency, no matter what kind of device you use it on.
    Microsoft has distinguished the different interfaces
    How? They look exactly the same to me.
    You think the UI is too segregated for someone who is considering a SP3?
    Yes, very much so. Luddites accused Windows 8 of being "two-faced" with the desktop and metro sides of the OS. I can understand that criticism being levelled, although I always thought it was massively over-emphasised. But now, if you are using something like a Surface Pro 3, what you'll experience with Windows 10 is more akin to multiple personality disorder, in that the same application or app will behave differently in different circumstances and you can't always tell which one you have to deal with. "Am I speaking to Metro or Desktop?" It is an order of magnitude more frustrating for users.
    sweatshopking and Yazen like this.
    05-25-2015 05:43 AM
  7. mj0's Avatar
    In tablet mode, the only way to close anything is by swiping down from the top but in desktop mode (if that's what it is called) if I try and do that, I end up with a window that sits underneath the Taskbar. It might not be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that the close and unmaximise buttons are still visible in tablet mode, they just don't work.
    Might be a bug on your system because they do work on my convertible in both desktop and tablet mode.

    The fact that I have to re-enter my password when I wake it up from sleep also annoys the hell outta me but I'll save that for another rant.
    The policy setting still exists right where it was in Windows 8.1 as well: PC settings - Accounts - Sign-in options. I've had mine set to 15 minutes automatically after creating the local user, no idea what went wrong in your case.
    Jazmac likes this.
    05-25-2015 06:14 AM
  8. Nuno Moz's Avatar
    I have an SP3 since September last month. I like Windows 8.1 but Windows 10 I think it will be far better.

    Windows 8.1 was built on the premisse that the solution for an hybrid was to have two totally distinct environments, one for let's say tablets and a another for Desktop. What both these environments had in common at the UI level was a shared Start Menu, at a lower level a shared file system.

    This created a functional gap that is not easy to overcome and fells anything but fluid. It also created problems form MS and developers in general.

    Some evidences of functional gaps:

    - The Tablet part could be mostly ignored in desktop top if not for the Start Menu. I found the Star Menu not efficient in desktop mode. The charms bar was also had no use for the most part.

    - In tandem with the previous, since the tablet mode was mostely ignored so were the apps. In the end so was the App Store. This created problems for developers because the actual usage potential of their apps was greatly diminished so there was little incentive for building Windows Apps. This in turn hurt the minority that actually were interested in using these Apps since there were less then desirable good apps for them to use.

    - Another example is Internet Explorer in Tablet mode. It wasn't really a good browser in comparison with the browser in other tablet systems. This pushed me to use a desktop browser in tablet mode. But not without nuisances. For instance, IE for the desktop one would touch the address to input an URLs and the on screen keyboard would not come up automatically. I found that the one desktop application that did this was Chrome. But Chrome consumes battery power like a maniac.

    - Another example. I used the plain Windows email client alomng with One Note in desktop mode. But then I had another email for the desktop mode. See the problem here? In the end what we actually had in the outset of things is two OSs into one. In principle I undertstand that it might have looked to be a good compromise. But in the end, its far far from desirable.

    Windows 10 is supposed to solve these issues and others and a Continuum vision. As far as I experimented with it, it does. For instance MS can now focus on offering one good browser that operated well in both modes.But there are a critical things from a user experience they need to sort out before releasing it.

    - The start menu im tablet mode is unbalanced! I like how they used the hambuger button, but the tile are is really unbalanced, both in landscape and portrait mode.

    - Some thing could be more uniform between desktop mode and tablet mode. For instance the task switcher. There are about 2 task switching UI's when one, the new way, seams to be more then enough.

    - I don't understand the task bar in the tablet mode. Can't they put those things inside the hambuger button or somerhing. I mean how useful is the system tray in tablet mode. It looks like it is there so that the taskbar does not look that unhelpful in tablet mode, but in reality it is.

    Cheers.
    DavidinCT likes this.
    05-25-2015 08:06 AM
  9. AndyCalling's Avatar
    I just feel I need to add a comment re all the 'It's just beta, shut up until release' brigade posting here. Yes, this is a beta. Companies do not release beta software in expectation that testers will respond with complete silence or rapturous applause. I suggest they do so more in the hopes of stimulating discussion and feedback on the experience of using their beta software so issues can be addressed.

    Why, then, are so many testers trying to stifle such discussion? Is this some collective attempt to undermine the beta process and to discourage all the needed changes before release? Seems dead suspicious to me. It certainly is not very logical from testing perspective.

    Now, on to the point, I thought the whole idea of Continuum was that it would automatically adapt between tablet mode or desktop mode depending on how one used one's PC? So, I interpreted that to mean WIMP focussed when running the desktop app and touch/tile focussed when not running the desktop app? If not, then what the hell does this 'Continuum' feature do exactly?
    920Walker and Kram Sacul like this.
    05-25-2015 08:17 AM
  10. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    Might be a bug on your system because they do work on my convertible in both desktop and tablet mode.
    With touch? You can use them OK if you have a mouse attached but if you're relying on fat fingers, forget it.
    The policy setting still exists right where it was in Windows 8.1 as well: PC settings - Accounts - Sign-in options. I've had mine set to 15 minutes automatically after creating the local user, no idea what went wrong in your case.
    You can set the time-out but you cannot set a preference for whether or not you need to re-enter your password. I found the setting, in Power Options in Control Panel, but it is greyed out and cannot be changed. To get to it, I had to pass through four other screens from the one you suggested and ended up in Control Panel.
    05-26-2015 02:30 AM
  11. mjyumping's Avatar
    With touch? You can use them OK if you have a mouse attached but if you're relying on fat fingers, forget it.
    Good, something to do for awhile. Some reason to reduce.
    05-26-2015 03:06 AM
  12. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    The Tablet part could be mostly ignored in desktop top if not for the Start Menu. I found the Star Menu not efficient in desktop mode.
    How is it not efficient? It is many times more efficient than the Start Menu in W7 and much better than what we have now in W10.
    The charms bar was also had no use for the most part.
    I use it several times every day. By comparison, I use Control panel, Task Manager and the System Tray far less frequently, yet no-one would suggest Microsoft should get rid of those things. i.e. How often you use something is not necessarily relevant to it's usefulness.
    In tandem with the previous, since the tablet mode was mostely ignored so were the apps. In the end so was the App Store. This created problems for developers because the actual usage potential of their apps was greatly diminished so there was little incentive for building Windows Apps. This in turn hurt the minority that actually were interested in using these Apps since there were less then desirable good apps for them to use.
    If you think apps were ignored before, why would anyone suddenly stop ignoring them now? The user experience with a tablet is so much worse than it was that no-one will ever want to buy a windows tablet. And if no-one is buying tablets, then no-one will want apps, no-one will use the store and no-one will develop for it.
    Another example is Internet Explorer in Tablet mode. It wasn't really a good browser in comparison with the browser in other tablet systems.
    Says who? The "metro" version of IE 11 is far and away my favourite browser. I'm using it now on my laptop with a mouse. I love having the web page as the only thing you have to look at, until you want/need to interact with the browser. Just go and look at Bing Image of the Day on the Metro IE, then on any other browser and you will see exactly what I mean. It is full featured, it's fast and it works at least as well as any other browser.
    ...I found that the one desktop application that did this was Chrome. But Chrome consumes battery power like a maniac.
    Wait on, didn't you just say that other tablet browsers were better? Because last time I looked, Chrome was also a tablet browser and here you are saying it is not better.
    Another example. I used the plain Windows email client alomng with One Note in desktop mode. But then I had another email for the desktop mode. See the problem here?
    Yes, I do. You are the problem here. Why would you need to use two different email clients? I don't particularly like the Mail app so I never use it. Just because it's there, doesn't mean you are obliged to use it.
    In the end what we actually had in the outset of things is two OSs into one. In principle I undertstand that it might have looked to be a good compromise. But in the end, its far far from desirable.
    But all we are doing now is trading one set of compromises for another. Nothing in W10 is any better at all. At least in W8, as you said, the two personalities were easily identifiable, now they both look the same but work differently. It is way more confusing.
    Windows 10 is supposed to solve these issues and others and a Continuum vision. As far as I experimented with it, it does. For instance MS can now focus on offering one good browser that operated well in both modes.
    Why is that necessarily an improvement? So far all I have seen is a new browser that operates like every other desktop browser and is horrible for touch. When using a tablet, you are constantly having to go to the top of the screen to do stuff, which just feels completely wrong. And the Image of the Day page now looks just like it does on every other browser. It's bitterly disappointing.
    The start menu im tablet mode is unbalanced! I like how they used the hambuger button, but the tile are is really unbalanced, both in landscape and portrait mode.
    How does that affect usability? It's just a cosmetic thing, it is irrelevant if the underlying experience is as terrible as it currently is.
    Some thing could be more uniform between desktop mode and tablet mode. For instance the task switcher. There are about 2 task switching UI's when one, the new way, seams to be more then enough.
    I'd say it is less than enough when we've had three or four different task switchers since Vista. You can't just take something out that has been there for ages and expect people to adapt. Removing the Start Button should have taught that lesson to everyone.
    I don't understand the task bar in the tablet mode. Can't they put those things inside the hambuger button or somerhing. I mean how useful is the system tray in tablet mode. It looks like it is there so that the taskbar does not look that unhelpful in tablet mode, but in reality it is.
    Yes, this is really bad but there is nothing to do about it when Tablet Mode is still running on the Desktop. i.e. This is a consequence of getting rid of the "metro" side of Windows 8 and trying to create a more seamless experience. It is an excellent example of why the whole concept blows goats.
    Kram Sacul and theefman like this.
    05-26-2015 03:12 AM
  13. ajayden's Avatar
    I do agree with the tablet mode thing. Considering RTM date is nearing, I don't know when they will trim the touch features much. I have touch enabled laptop, I liked swiping from right to open charms and go to start screen, now I have to tap the start icon in the left corner of the taskbar(considering I am using it on 15.1'' screen.+ FHD screen makes it more small).
    Wow. This is amazing. You just complain for the sake of complaining without even thinking about the usability of features. Using Charms to go back to start screen is worst way of doing it. Why?

    When you use charms to go back to start screen, you use a swipe and a click. Which is two actions to accomplish a simple task.

    Solution
    1) For laptop use the windows button on the keyboard and with a single click/press you are on the start screen
    2) For tablet also click on windows hardware button on the tablet and with a single click/press you are on the start screen.
    05-26-2015 05:41 AM
  14. nTrud3r's Avatar
    Windows 10 is still beta, lots of things are rough and unfinished. If you don't like Windows, don't use it! Problem solved.
    DavidinCT likes this.
    05-26-2015 05:45 AM
  15. mj0's Avatar
    With touch? You can use them OK if you have a mouse attached but if you're relying on fat fingers, forget it.
    Yes, with touch. No mouse.

    You can set the time-out but you cannot set a preference for whether or not you need to re-enter your password. I found the setting, in Power Options in Control Panel, but it is greyed out and cannot be changed. To get to it, I had to pass through four other screens from the one you suggested and ended up in Control Panel.
    In addition to a couple of predefined intervals this setting also includes the option "Never". Isn't that what you are looking for?
    Last edited by mj0; 05-26-2015 at 09:56 AM.
    05-26-2015 09:11 AM
  16. DavidinCT's Avatar
    I want to be convinced, I really do, but posts like this simply reinforce me belief that W10 is all about making people feel better about Windows, rather than actually making Windows better.
    I am not getting in a trolling battle with you, slamming people because of their choice here.

    With this being said, why do you need someone to "convince" you ? If you don't like it, fine, understand it's a unfinished beta product. When it's released to RTM, try it again, if you STILL don't like it then stick with Windows 8.1.

    Like I said, there is a lot of nice things about 8.1 but, for me, I think the dislikes outweigh the likes.

    Windows 10 looks like the MERGE of the best of Windows 7 with the Best of 8.1, now if they can get the tablet mode fixed up a bit, then it just might be. I can see how 8.1 LOVERS would be a little disappointed in it.

    As we stand, lot of changes will happen (July release, LOL) and you will see a lot of other refinements before RTM, no need for someone to talk you into it, if your mind is already set one on one thing but, I would give it a final shot when it hits RTM with the final tweaks before giving up on it totally.
    05-26-2015 01:08 PM
  17. salazka's Avatar
    It is broken, and the new features are overshadowed by major rollbacks of inspired Windows 8 features. All these aged users wanted was the damned start menu. not a rollback o the entire feature set. The same happened to Windows Phone. Horrendous.
    Motor_Mouth likes this.
    05-26-2015 08:26 PM
  18. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    Windows 10 is still beta, lots of things are rough and unfinished. If you don't like Windows, don't use it! Problem solved.
    So no one should have an opinion on unfinished software? Isn't the point of a beta to give opinions on what should be fixed? You know, discussion? Not using Windows would kind of defeat the whole process. I wish people would put more thought into their posts.
    05-27-2015 01:26 AM
  19. colinkiama's Avatar
    So no one should have an opinion on unfinished software? Isn't the point of a beta to give opinions on what should be fixed? You know, discussion? Not using Windows would kind of defeat the whole process. I wish people would put more thought into their posts.
    But you don't complain here, you complain to Microsoft in the windows feedback app. This isn't even a beta as well, this is more like access to alpha builds.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-27-2015 01:29 AM
  20. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    Can't we do both? Discuss it here AND give feedback to MS.
    05-27-2015 02:03 AM
  21. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    But you don't complain here, you complain to Microsoft in the windows feedback app. This isn't even a beta as well, this is more like access to alpha builds.
    Can't we do both? Discuss it here AND give feedback to MS.
    Colin is right. WindowsCentral is a fan-based site, with no official affiliation to Microsoft.
    05-27-2015 02:14 AM
  22. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure there wasn't any confusion about that.
    05-27-2015 03:00 AM
  23. Yazen's Avatar
    Basically, yes. It feels like all the mistakes they neatly side-stepped with Windows 8 brought back to make those who refused to adapt to W8 pay for their intransigence (and those idiots seem to be lapping it up).


    it seems to be gone, or moved somewhere I can't find. One of the few good things about OS X is that if your Mac goes to sleep, you get a small window of time to wake it up without a password but if you leave it for more than a minute or so, you have to put it in again.

    But it' snot consistent because you have to learn a different way in each mode. Imagine someone who uses W10 on their desktop/laptop for a year or two and then buys a tablet. His tablet will feel like a completely different OS because all the things he is used to doing won't work in tablet mode. OTOH, in Windows 8 there is 100% consistency, no matter what kind of device you use it on.

    How? They look exactly the same to me.

    Yes, very much so. Luddites accused Windows 8 of being "two-faced" with the desktop and metro sides of the OS. I can understand that criticism being levelled, although I always thought it was massively over-emphasised. But now, if you are using something like a Surface Pro 3, what you'll experience with Windows 10 is more akin to multiple personality disorder, in that the same application or app will behave differently in different circumstances and you can't always tell which one you have to deal with. "Am I speaking to Metro or Desktop?" It is an order of magnitude more frustrating for users.
    The interfaces are consistent as in WinRT and Win32 apps are canvased differently depending on whether or not tablet mode is enabled. It's less intuitive, however Windows 8 has proved that most users do not want to learn anything >.<

    I liked the "two face" approach. Why couldn't they just add a start menu when docked :S

    Not all Microsoft's fault... Some people see "Windows" and expect the EXEs on their floppies to just work
    05-27-2015 09:12 AM
  24. madapo's Avatar
    "they seem to have completely destroyed the tablet experience. And I mean completely destroyed."
    +100000000 LIKE
    05-27-2015 08:40 PM
  25. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    Yes, with touch. No mouse.
    Well, mine definitely doesn't. What build are you on? (I'm on the one that was released last week.)
    In addition to a couple of predefined intervals this setting also includes the option "Never". Isn't that what you are looking for?
    But I don't want my tablet to never go to sleep, I need it to conserve battery life. It's just that when I wake it up, I don't want to have to re-enter my password. In fact, I don't know how I ever let it trick me into using a password at all.
    920Walker likes this.
    05-27-2015 09:08 PM
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