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07-28-2015 10:24 PM
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  1. AndyCalling's Avatar
    I've just realised, WC reports that the update to W10 will be through Windows Update, and that Win7 home/Win8 will get vanilla whilst 7/8pro will get W10pro.

    This means...

    If, like many, you bought Win7 Home, then got the cheap upgrade to Win8pro (as pro was given to all W7home customers who bought the cheap initial upgrade offer), then updated to Win8.1pro, and you want to do a clean install the procedure goes like this:

    Install Win7home from retail disc.

    DO NOT UPDATE this through Windows Update, because it is a Home edition so you won't get 10pro and may block yourself from ever upgrading your licence to pro. You don't need any W7 updates either, because...

    Instead, you must install Win8pro from burned ISO update you downloaded yonks ago and hope the dye on the disc is still good. Hope you didn't lose it... Luckily you can choose a clean install at this point. If the disc was the first they made available for download though (if you got it at release) then the UEFI install option was broken in the image (they quietly corrected it later down the track, but I can't find that image any more). So you'll need to build a UEFI image from the iso manually as I did. Have fun learning.

    Install .NET 3 because it is often needed and if you try to do it after fully updating Win8 you get problems as it won't install properly.

    Install all the Win8pro updates, and there are a massive number at this point, but only 5 or so at a time because a few of them will cause big update problems that will lock you in an endless update cycle when it reboots to complete the installation if you select too many. This affects pretty much everyone, it's just that many people haven't tried to install an original release Win8 for a long while so don't realise, the updates are mad at this stage.

    Now, choose the Win10pro optional update. Thank goodness they don't make you do the Win8.1 update first, and all its attendant updates... God, they wouldn't do that would they? They wouldn't... They might, you know... NOOOOoooo...!

    And you have to do this every time you install it. And you probably won't be able to use any repair or refresh functions as you won't have a W10pro disc. Same as happened with Win8.1 update. EVERY TIME! OH GOD, NOOOOoooo...!

    Book some leave folks. Or, if you have 3 or more PCs, take a sabbatical year.
    Last edited by AndyCalling; 05-19-2015 at 04:40 PM.
    gahbmwm5 likes this.
    05-19-2015 04:20 PM
  2. theefman's Avatar
    Or..... don't update to Windows 10. Sorted!
    AndyCalling likes this.
    05-19-2015 04:23 PM
  3. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Or..... don't update to Windows 10. Sorted!
    Seems like a plan, but the smart thing is to image, then update in-place (so in first year). Of course you would want a clean install for real, but this is just to get the updated key. Then simply restore your Win8 image and wait for things to get fully touch capable and hope MS release an update ISO.

    ...Then the phone rings and a pensioner's voice says... "So son, how do I install this new Windows 10 thingumy on my computer and tablet? Is it USB?"

    NOOOOoooo...!
    Last edited by AndyCalling; 05-19-2015 at 04:49 PM.
    Ferdoce likes this.
    05-19-2015 04:29 PM
  4. astondg's Avatar
    There will likely be an alternate install option for Windows 10, e.g. An ISO, just as there was with 8.1. Microsoft still have to support offline install scenarios where the Store upgrade can't be used. And even if they don't I think there was a way to download the 8.1 update through the store, find the package and create a bootable USB drive from it to perform a clean install. If I'm remembering correctly then the same will probably apply to W10.

    The other point though is that at this stage we just don't know for sure. Ask we're can make are assumptions & guesses.
    05-19-2015 04:46 PM
  5. _Emi_'s Avatar
    "Win10 update process will be a painful experience" based on what? on your overreaction? I see.

    All I will say it's, No. it won't be... because it will be exactly like 7 and 8 upgrades (only free). where even if you bought an upgrade you could still clean install the OS and add the key later without so much trouble. (we don't even know how Microsoft will give us the Windows 10 key, but it will exist somewhere and somehow)
    I don't understand the pain of installing through Windows update anyway.... some people will update it from there and other will get a disc and do it though there... what is the super painful experience you are talking about?

    You only can't expect getting a Windows 10 version you don't deserve. you can't expect Microsoft to give you a pro serial when you only own 7 home Premium or starter for example. and if you have windows 8 pro as an upgrade there are ways to install it clean if you want to use Windows Update (just like some people clean install Windows 10 Previews)

    So I don't understand the point here (well I only understand you just didn't know how to clean upgrade your PC without Windows 7 in place). Microsoft hasn't even talked abut how much it will cost buying a new windows 10 copy for people who build their pcs or want to upgrade their Windows XP or vista or 95. or the upgrade for pirates to make their copy legal. But it sounds illogical to think Microsoft will keep selling Windows 8 so people will upgrade to Windows 10 for free.
    05-19-2015 04:53 PM
  6. AndyCalling's Avatar
    There will likely be an alternate install option for Windows 10, e.g. An ISO, just as there was with 8.1. Microsoft still have to support offline install scenarios where the Store upgrade can't be used. And even if they don't I think there was a way to download the 8.1 update through the store, find the package and create a bootable USB drive from it to perform a clean install. If I'm remembering correctly then the same will probably apply to W10.

    The other point though is that at this stage we just don't know for sure. Ask we're can make are assumptions & guesses.
    Actually, if you read this article, I think we do know.

    http://www.windowscentral.com/here-a...ons-windows-10

    There was no install 8.1 iso for upgraders that I was aware of, but quite recently they did release an iso that can be used to refresh/reset an installation. That took so long to get out that it's hardly relevant.

    Hacking the download may be our best bet as you suggest, but MS won't be vulnerable to the same methods this time I'm sure.

    Oh, and Emi, I know how to clean install Win8.1 but without a hack or a non-official iso it was not an option. These choices are not good to expect from people. Installing the Win7 disc is the easiest bit, it would take longer to find and download a non-update Win8 iso for most than simply installing 7 just to have the OS on there for the official update disc. And I don't like your insinuation that I'm trying to get/encouraging others to get something they shouldn't. This is an MS promoted, legitimate and very common way people have come to be running Win8.1pro today. No piracy, all monies duly paid upfront. In fact, it looks like the pirates are set to get a much more straight forward upgrade path. Don't be unpleasant for the sake of it. It's not as impressive as you think.

    My point is that the official install method is getting comical and I had hoped MS would take the opportunity to shorten the update supply lines a little. The auspices are not good.
    Last edited by AndyCalling; 05-19-2015 at 05:40 PM.
    05-19-2015 04:56 PM
  7. astondg's Avatar
    That Windows Central article doesn't explicitly preclude an offline installer.

    Also there was an ISO released, it was the Enterprise ISO for customers upgrading volume licensed systems but you could install it on any system as long as you had an appropriate key for the OS version you wanted.

    There was also an ISO available for MSDN subscribers.

    As to the workaround of creating an installer from the files downloaded from the store, Microsoft never publicly took issue with that so I don't see why they would prevent it this time. But again, we just don't know yet and it's all speculation.

    The points you are raising are valid questions to ask of Microsoft while W10 is in development but right now it feels like you're making assumptions and stating then as fact.
    05-19-2015 07:09 PM
  8. AndyCalling's Avatar
    The upgrade key was not recognised by such iso options you mention, as the only option available to go from 8 to 8.1 was to use the store update option. There was a trick that required installing with a trial key and then switching over. Again, I expect such past loopholes will be fixed for W10. I hope, like you do, that MS have another option in mind but the article felt very 'one route' to me.

    Everything I say is simply a current working model based on what we know and what we can logically surmise or can reasonably expect from past/current experience. How could it be otherwise? Context demands it. If some people believe I have a crystal ball and am dealing in absolutes then I'm afraid they may be beyond rescue.

    Remember, assumption is an essential and highly evolved part of human reasoning. It allows us to plan ahead fantastically well and is one of the major advantages we have over other species. Try spending one day without assuming anything, and see how well you do with the first street crossing.
    :)~
    Last edited by AndyCalling; 05-19-2015 at 08:01 PM.
    05-19-2015 07:42 PM
  9. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    Andy, I understand what your saying, but your statements are hyperbolic at best.

    Considering that even the preview builds now creates a new recovery partition, at worse case people will simply need to upgrade using Windows Update to Windows 10; then, if they want to have a clean installation after the upgrade, go to Settings ➡ Update and Recovery ➡ Reset to get a completely clean installation. As with Windows 8.1 you can create a recovery USB of that recovery partition and delete the recovery partition from the drive, using the newly-created recovery USB whenever a Refresh or Reset is necessary, if desired.

    I don't think it's as apocalyptic as you make it out.
    05-19-2015 10:48 PM
  10. astondg's Avatar
    Remember, assumption is an essential and highly evolved part of human reasoning. It allows us to plan ahead fantastically well and is one of the major advantages we have over other species. Try spending one day without assuming anything, and see how well you do with the first street crossing.
    :)~
    My problem is not with making assumptions, it's that you are making them and then declaring that we're all doomed because of them and in a way that suggests there's nothing we can do. It feels like you're complaining about something that hasn't happened and it's sentiments & assumptions like this that led to confusion around the free upgrade in the first year.

    If you feel as though you're going to be left out in the cold then let Microsoft know now via the feedback channels, usevoice, twitter, AMAs, etc. Ask the question of them rather than assuming.

    I agree that there should be a nice way to do an offline, full reinstall but I don't feel like we've been screwed over just yet.

    Personally, once I upgrade I'm planning to do a clean reinstall via the recovery partition.
    Last edited by astondg; 05-20-2015 at 09:00 AM.
    05-20-2015 12:40 AM
  11. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Personally, after I 'upgrade' I intend to reimage back to 8 unless or until we have the option of an OS with an upgraded touch UI. But to respond to your concern...

    What's wrong with discussing my current working model of how this OS will pan out so I and others can do our best to plan for the future? It is a common way for human beings to cogitate. Sorry, but I don't hold with the 'suspend thinking until absolutely sure' approach to planning ahead. I prefer a more conventional method of reasoning. But just to remove all doubt...

    ...please be assured, everyone, that I do NOT have any talent in clairvoyance and I offer no prophecy of doom or of any other kind. That is an absolute fact.
    05-20-2015 02:13 PM
  12. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    Considering that I posted a real option that works now in the most current build of the preview has been provided that allows a system to be in a clean, freshly-installed, nothing else on it state; it's very difficult to listen to a worse-case postulation that doesn't seem to be an issue, nor will be an issue as the release gets closer to RTM.

    Also, I ask, have you gone about to actually use the Technical Preview yet, first hand, Andy, and tried to understand how the touch UI is actually quite nice in Tablet Mode (I've made comments before that snap still does work, but is infinitely more flexible, and works with Desktop apps and Metro apps co-existing together; how the new Task View is more discoverable, usable, and powerful, with the only loss being that it doesn't immediately switch/cycle through apps with a single left swipe on the screen because the swipe from left edge now brings up the Task View)? Or are you still relying on what others have been saying and what others have been reading and posting? Not to mention, as you've made a concern before, how the Start Menu/Screen will, in a future build, hide the Windows-7 like menus in a Hamburger menu, thus giving you the screen with just live tiles as they were before, with the only 'sacrifice' being that it now scrolls vertically instead of horizontally, mimicking how the live tiles scroll vertically on a phone? How inconvenient is it, really, in a touch UI, to scroll vertically instead of horizontally?

    Nothing is wrong with posulations or assumptions, until the postulations or assumptions have been debunked.
    Last edited by Don Geronimo; 05-20-2015 at 02:54 PM.
    05-20-2015 02:42 PM
  13. gahbmwm5's Avatar
    I've just realised, WC reports that the update to W10 will be through Windows Update, and that Win7 home/Win8 will get vanilla whilst 7/8pro will get W10pro.

    This means...

    If, like many, you bought Win7 Home, then got the cheap upgrade to Win8pro (as pro was given to all W7home customers who bought the cheap initial upgrade offer), then updated to Win8.1pro, and you want to do a clean install the procedure goes like this:

    Install Win7home from retail disc.

    DO NOT UPDATE this through Windows Update, because it is a Home edition so you won't get 10pro and may block yourself from ever upgrading your licence to pro. You don't need any W7 updates either, because...

    Instead, you must install Win8pro from burned ISO update you downloaded yonks ago and hope the dye on the disc is still good. Hope you didn't lose it... Luckily you can choose a clean install at this point. If the disc was the first they made available for download though (if you got it at release) then the UEFI install option was broken in the image (they quietly corrected it later down the track, but I can't find that image any more). So you'll need to build a UEFI image from the iso manually as I did. Have fun learning.

    Install .NET 3 because it is often needed and if you try to do it after fully updating Win8 you get problems as it won't install properly.

    Install all the Win8pro updates, and there are a massive number at this point, but only 5 or so at a time because a few of them will cause big update problems that will lock you in an endless update cycle when it reboots to complete the installation if you select too many. This affects pretty much everyone, it's just that many people haven't tried to install an original release Win8 for a long while so don't realise, the updates are mad at this stage.

    Now, choose the Win10pro optional update. Thank goodness they don't make you do the Win8.1 update first, and all its attendant updates... God, they wouldn't do that would they? They wouldn't... They might, you know... NOOOOoooo...!

    And you have to do this every time you install it. And you probably won't be able to use any repair or refresh functions as you won't have a W10pro disc. Same as happened with Win8.1 update. EVERY TIME! OH GOD, NOOOOoooo...!

    Book some leave folks. Or, if you have 3 or more PCs, take a sabbatical year.
    AndyCalling,

    Lol..how true!
    05-20-2015 02:51 PM
  14. astondg's Avatar
    It is a common way for human beings to cogitate.
    You told _Emi_ not to be unpleasant and yet you continue to be condescending. I've been ignoring it until now but it isn't helping me warm to your posts.

    The problem is that you aren't just having a discussion. Have you re-read the title of your first post? It's hyperbolic. As are your posts which feel to me like they are looking for a response of 'Yeah, Microsoft screwed us! Those bastards!' rather than looking for possible solutions or work arounds, which have subsequently been provided, or working out a plan to bring this to Microsoft's attention.

    My point about assumptions, or your 'working model', is that until W10 is released these things aren't set in stone. So instead of thinking 'poor us, we're all doomed' let's try to do something about it. When W10 is released, and these are no longer assumptions but facts, then by all means curse Microsoft and feel sorry for ourselves.

    Or use one of the workarounds as posted previously and get your system set up the way you like.
    05-20-2015 03:10 PM
  15. Yazen's Avatar
    "Win10 update process will be a painful experience" based on what? on your overreaction? I see.

    All I will say it's, No. it won't be... because it will be exactly like 7 and 8 upgrades (only free). where even if you bought an upgrade you could still clean install the OS and add the key later without so much trouble. (we don't even know how Microsoft will give us the Windows 10 key, but it will exist somewhere and somehow)
    I don't understand the pain of installing through Windows update anyway.... some people will update it from there and other will get a disc and do it though there... what is the super painful experience you are talking about?

    You only can't expect getting a Windows 10 version you don't deserve. you can't expect Microsoft to give you a pro serial when you only own 7 home Premium or starter for example. and if you have windows 8 pro as an upgrade there are ways to install it clean if you want to use Windows Update (just like some people clean install Windows 10 Previews)

    So I don't understand the point here (well I only understand you just didn't know how to clean upgrade your PC without Windows 7 in place). Microsoft hasn't even talked abut how much it will cost buying a new windows 10 copy for people who build their pcs or want to upgrade their Windows XP or vista or 95. or the upgrade for pirates to make their copy legal. But it sounds illogical to think Microsoft will keep selling Windows 8 so people will upgrade to Windows 10 for free.
    I've never had any upgrade go smoothly, and my PC hardware tends to be fairly high end.
    05-20-2015 08:15 PM
  16. falconrap's Avatar
    There was no install 8.1 iso for upgraders that I was aware of, but quite recently they did release an iso that can be used to refresh/reset an installation. That took so long to get out that it's hardly relevant.
    Hmmm...for some reason I seem to be staring at the ISO sourced DVD I burned with my cheapo $40 Win8 Pro ugrade license to my Windows 7 Home PC. In fact, I'm also now looking in File Explorer and I see the very ISO I downloaded from MS to burn this DVD (still have the ISO cause I kind of horde SW files like that).

    So...you are wrong. I'm also typing this from my PC that was upgraded in place from Windows 7 to Windows 8 Pro. Then upgraded to Windows 8.1 Pro. And finally upgraded in place to Windows 10 Pro, build 10074. I see no issues. I don't think upgrade in place is nearly as bad (remotely even) as it was in the 2000/XP/Vista days. Way too many people get a little too tight in the backside when it comes to this stuff. In fact, I can play DVD's just fine simply because I did an upgrade in place. No need to download anything, though I still have to use either VLC or Media Player Classic, which has been the same since Win 8.

    For most people, Windows 10 will be a simple upgrade in place, and they will enjoy it.
    05-20-2015 09:17 PM
  17. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    "So son, how do I install this new Windows 10 thingumy on my computer and tablet? Is it USB?"

    NOOOOoooo...!
    You should have thought of that before making the mistake of having parents.
    AndyCalling and RumoredNow like this.
    05-21-2015 09:10 AM
  18. canhosaigon's Avatar
    thank
    05-21-2015 11:28 AM
  19. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Hmmm...for some reason I seem to be staring at the ISO sourced DVD I burned with my cheapo $40 Win8 Pro ugrade license to my Windows 7 Home PC. In fact, I'm also now looking in File Explorer and I see the very ISO I downloaded from MS to burn this DVD (still have the ISO cause I kind of horde SW files like that).

    So...you are wrong. I'm also typing this from my PC that was upgraded in place from Windows 7 to Windows 8 Pro. Then upgraded to Windows 8.1 Pro. And finally upgraded in place to Windows 10 Pro, build 10074. I see no issues. I don't think upgrade in place is nearly as bad (remotely even) as it was in the 2000/XP/Vista days. Way too many people get a little too tight in the backside when it comes to this stuff. In fact, I can play DVD's just fine simply because I did an upgrade in place. No need to download anything, though I still have to use either VLC or Media Player Classic, which has been the same since Win 8.

    For most people, Windows 10 will be a simple upgrade in place, and they will enjoy it.
    Yes, a Win8pro disc, not a Win8.1pro disc. See the difference? Win8 upgrade was issued correctly. Not via the store. That's my point.
    05-22-2015 12:12 PM
  20. AndyCalling's Avatar
    You told _Emi_ not to be unpleasant and yet you continue to be condescending. I've been ignoring it until now but it isn't helping me warm to your posts.

    The problem is that you aren't just having a discussion. Have you re-read the title of your first post? It's hyperbolic. As are your posts which feel to me like they are looking for a response of 'Yeah, Microsoft screwed us! Those bastards!' rather than looking for possible solutions or work arounds, which have subsequently been provided, or working out a plan to bring this to Microsoft's attention.

    My point about assumptions, or your 'working model', is that until W10 is released these things aren't set in stone. So instead of thinking 'poor us, we're all doomed' let's try to do something about it. When W10 is released, and these are no longer assumptions but facts, then by all means curse Microsoft and feel sorry for ourselves.

    Or use one of the workarounds as posted previously and get your system set up the way you like.
    I have not accused anyone of wrongdoing or piracy, please do not compare me on that front. It is not appropriate, just like Emi's post. Unfortunately it is difficult to seem anything but incredulous to people who really think I have some kind of knowledge of the future and that I am somehow dealing in future facts, as such is clearly bunkum and those ideas will get no respect from me. Rightfully so.

    If you truly had read all my posts you would realise how wrong you are with regards to my objectives. I have tried to explain them to you in pretty good detail, I thought, but if I've still not been effective in communicating my processes to you then we can only settle for my reassuring you that my approach is not as you imagine. Can you find that acceptable?
    05-22-2015 12:24 PM
  21. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    Yes, a Win8pro disc, not a Win8.1pro disc. See the difference? Win8 upgrade was issued correctly. Not via the store. That's my point.
    Except that I've been successful using Microsoft's Media Creation Tool to get 8.1 Pro and to create a DVD install using ISO and USB drives, and I've been successful installing 8.1 cleanly not just for my Surface Pro, but also for installing cleanly on a friends computer after I made backups of their product keys. Worse case, I installed using a generic product key and changed it later after installation to get a genuine validation.

    Upgrading to 10 from 8.1, not a clean install, gave me a recovery partition to enable a reset on the 10 device to give me a clean reinstall without having to roll back to 8.1 beforehand. Done that many times to clean reset W10 when things went wonky.
    05-22-2015 12:38 PM
  22. coolqf's Avatar
    I wonder how this'll affect computers that included Windows. It's hardcoded into my laptop my product key for Win 8.1 OEM - DELL. I assumed that MS would simply allow me to clean install to Win10 for free?
    05-22-2015 12:50 PM
  23. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Except that I've been successful using Microsoft's Media Creation Tool to get 8.1 Pro and to create a DVD install using ISO and USB drives, and I've been successful installing 8.1 cleanly not just for my Surface Pro, but also for installing cleanly on a friends computer after I made backups of their product keys. Worse case, I installed using a generic product key and changed it later after installation to get a genuine validation.

    Upgrading to 10 from 8.1, not a clean install, gave me a recovery partition to enable a reset on the 10 device to give me a clean reinstall without having to roll back to 8.1 beforehand. Done that many times to clean reset W10 when things went wonky.
    Interesting to hear they've changed the tool. Such was not possible for a long time after 8.1s release (in fact, since they never provided an upgrade activation code for 8.1 unless you cadged it post install, it is still a bit of a cludge). That'll definitely help, but this change needs to be advertised. If they do this straight away for Win10 that'll be grand, but the WC article sounded very definite about 10 being made available for upgrade only through the store. I do hope they are wrong, because if we get an iso it can be clean installed over a raw 8 pro install with no updates. Much better for an official install process and would make the 8.1 iso redundant.

    The 8.1 iso download page for store updaters from MS claims it can only be used for refresh etc. rather than a clean install. This kind of 'advertising' doesn't help, since you have discovered it is false.
    05-22-2015 01:24 PM
  24. AndyCalling's Avatar
    I wonder how this'll affect computers that included Windows. It's hardcoded into my laptop my product key for Win 8.1 OEM - DELL. I assumed that MS would simply allow me to clean install to Win10 for free?
    There will be a way, some work-around or hack, but MS have been making it awkward in recent years. I hope they take the opportunity with W10 to step back from this approach, but the current line is not inspiring confidence.
    05-22-2015 01:38 PM
  25. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    I don't understand. It was pretty advertised that they made that a possibility. Not to mention Microsoft's Create Reset/Refresh Media says right up front that, "If you need to install or reinstall Windows 8.1, you can use the tool on this page to create your own installation media using either a USB flash drive or a DVD." Not to mention, a Reset in Settings -> Update/Recovery does exactly what a clean install would do, whether for 8, 8.1, or 10, right now, as it is, and working. The worse case that I posted, where I had to use a generic install key, has been like that since Windows 7.

    As I said before, assumptions and postulations are alright until they have been debunked.
    05-22-2015 01:46 PM
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