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06-24-2015 07:16 AM
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  1. mikewp's Avatar
    I posted on the Windows Developer forum here: https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/1...ject-islandwoo Not sure if that is the correct place, but that's a start anyway.
    05-31-2015 12:00 AM
  2. Elitis's Avatar
    I think many of you may be forgetting a few things. Porting existing apps isn't the problem. Its already pretty easy for developers to port their apps. The problem is, again, the market share. It's just not worth the effort at long as Windows Phone's market share continues to hover around 5%. There's also the issue of apps ported using Project Astoria are incapable of being Universal Apps. They will run only on Windows Phone. Apps ported using Project Islandwood have a similar limitation. They will only work on tablets. PCs are excluded. So, again, developers run into the issue of low market share. If you want more apps, then Microsoft's flagships need to be smash hits.
    05-31-2015 08:21 PM
  3. chmun77's Avatar
    I think many of you may be forgetting a few things. Porting existing apps isn't the problem. Its already pretty easy for developers to port their apps. The problem is, again, the market share. It's just not worth the effort at long as Windows Phone's market share continues to hover around 5%. There's also the issue of apps ported using Project Astoria are incapable of being Universal Apps. They will run only on Windows Phone. Apps ported using Project Islandwood have a similar limitation. They will only work on tablets. PCs are excluded. So, again, developers run into the issue of low market share. If you want more apps, then Microsoft's flagships need to be smash hits.
    Also, are they going to continue with their supports after porting the very first version due to the pathetic market shares?? If not, the app gaps issues will just continue to rot away Windows 10.
    05-31-2015 09:26 PM
  4. mikewp's Avatar
    ... There's also the issue of apps ported using Project Astoria are incapable of being Universal Apps. They will run only on Windows Phone. Apps ported using Project Islandwood have a similar limitation. They will only work on tablets. PCs are excluded. So, again, developers run into the issue of low market share. If you want more apps, then Microsoft's flagships need to be smash hits.
    Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the Android limitation (Why is that?). However, what do you mean by "Apps ported using Project Islandwood have a similar limitation."? From https://dev.windows.com/en-US/uwp-bridges/ "For existing iOS developers, ”Project Islandwood” will enable you to build a universal Windows app from within Visual Studio 2015 using your existing Objective-C code." I"m not a developer, so I take that statement on face value. Can you explain where that statement by Microsoft is not true? Looking forward to your reply here as I don't want to be emailing out false information.

    Microsoft will never come out with a phone that is going to pull any significant amount of customers from iOS or Android platforms until there are apps. Period. Microsoft knows this. Heck, Apple could come out with an iPhone that ran Windows and Samsung could come out with an S6 that ran Windows and they would sit on the shelves.
    06-01-2015 12:16 AM
  5. mikewp's Avatar
    Also, are they going to continue with their supports after porting the very first version due to the pathetic market shares?? If not, the app gaps issues will just continue to rot away Windows 10.
    Well...I think that is the point of the projects. Porting is (supposed to be/better be) extremely easy using the existing codebase. Write once, compile twice. How hard can that be to maintain?
    06-01-2015 12:21 AM
  6. mikewp's Avatar
    20k+ posts...Laura Knotek, judging from the posts you "like" in this thread, I'm beginning to think you are not a fan of Windows growing and thriving on phones and tablets. I won't go as far as saying you are a Google hack since you do use some Windows devices, however, you do not have a Windows phone.

    Since you are liking certain posts in this particular thread, there is an interest on your part. Instead of lurking in the shadows, how about you sharing your opinion? Coming from a moderator and someone with 20k+ posts, I would find your insight of value.
    Last edited by mikewp; 06-01-2015 at 03:42 AM.
    Spectrum90 likes this.
    06-01-2015 12:45 AM
  7. Elitis's Avatar
    Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the Android limitation (Why is that?). However, what do you mean by "Apps ported using Project Islandwood have a similar limitation."? From https://dev.windows.com/en-US/uwp-bridges/ "For existing iOS developers, ”Project Islandwood” will enable you to build a universal Windows app from within Visual Studio 2015 using your existing Objective-C code." I"m not a developer, so I take that statement on face value. Can you explain where that statement by Microsoft is not true? Looking forward to your reply here as I don't want to be emailing out false information.

    Microsoft will never come out with a phone that is going to pull any significant amount of customers from iOS or Android platforms until there are apps. Period. Microsoft knows this. Heck, Apple could come out with an iPhone that ran Windows and Samsung could come out with an S6 that ran Windows and they would sit on the shelves.
    I couldn't tell you why these ported apps have limitations. At this point, not much is known about these projects by the public. While I look for the exact source (I may have mixed the words up from it since I posted from memory), it should be noted that on the Microsoft Project Islandwood page says, "Make minimal changes to your iOS/Objective-C code to build a Windows app". It says Windows app, not Universal App. Similarly, on the Project Astoria page, it explicitly says Windows Apps for phones. I'll update later when I find the source.

    UPDATE: Found it: http://www.techradar.com/us/news/sof...obile--1293295

    After going through a lot of articles about the two projects, I found out a lot of users theorize that the (Android) limitation is due to Android mainly being written to work with ARM processors (despite working with Intel processors) or because most Android apps for tablets don't utilize the extra space available for the UI. They're just scaled-up phone apps, which doesn't look good. However, the real reason is simply because the Android subsystem that makes Android apps work will only be available on Windows 10 Mobile (at least initially).

    Also, I was wrong about the iOS limitation. I had confused Continuum with Universal. iOS apps will have the capability to be universal (final decision still rests with the developer). The limitation is that they (along with ported Android apps) will not support Contiuum. In other words, ported apps will not scale and change their UI based on screen size, interaction model (touch vs mouse/keyboard), etc when using Continuum (i.e connecting a phone to a monitor or attaching a keyboard to a tablet)

    UPDATE 2: At this point, I think WP has enough of the most popular/used apps that Microsoft could steal a significant portion of iOS or Android users away regardless of the store not having as many apps. Hardware is pretty much the same across the board, so it's really software that sells now. The flagship is going to need monster specs (2K display, Intel Atom x series/Snapdragon 820, 4GB RAM, 3000+mAh battery, amazing cameras, biometrics, etc) of course, but if Microsoft:
    1) spent as much money marketing their flagship as Samsung and Apple do (i.e billions). Maybe market it as a phone that can replace your PC (through Continuum). "Your phone when it want it to be, your PC when you need it to be").

    2) gets the Xbox controllers (360/One) working with it to market to gamers. Maybe have a commercial showing the flagship connected to a TV (Continuum either through Miracast or USB Type-C port) while the user plays a game using a controller, then disconnects it from the TV and clips the phone to the controller for mobile gaming on the go, and then just using the touchscreen. Why the Xbox controllers? Because people already have them. The mobile gaming controllers right now are kind of expensive and no one wants to buy them when they already have a gaming controller that should be able to work with their phone.

    3) brings Windows 8's Snap to Windows 10 Mobile (i.e two different apps running split-screen).

    4) makes it universally available.
    I'm sure Windows 10 Mobile's (Windows Phone's) market share would rise exponentially. Enough to really compete with Apple and Google. Just point one and two capture the attention of gamers, businesses, and spec nerds. The novelty, coolness factor, and point 3 bring in the average users.
    Last edited by Elitis; 06-01-2015 at 11:30 PM.
    mikewp, a5cent and chmun77 like this.
    06-01-2015 10:04 PM
  8. mikewp's Avatar
    Elitis, Thanks for that very detailed reply. Ya, when I looked at the Project Islandwood developer page, I noticed that it did not spell out the capability to build Universal apps. I forgot how I got over to the other page I linked to that spelled out the capabilities for both projects.

    I agree with your 4 things Microsoft needs to do to steal marketshare. As far as marketing goes, that's a gamble. I mean that only that yes, they need to spend big money, but somehow they need to do it differently. Right now, watching anything Microsoft related makes my skin crawl. But...maybe they have done market research and they are hitting their target audience. All I know is it doesn't work for me. Apple's marketing as much as I don't really like it (Because it is Apple! :-) )...deep down, I know it works. Microsoft stuff isn't sexy or cool (the way it is marketed)..They market to people like "Hey boring and dull, everyday folks...We get you! We have designed stuff just for you" Or, "Apple may have the cool music and pretty colored phones, but we have dancing tablets with clicky tops" Microsofts marketing just feels very awkward, But I suppose it is hard to find a spot to occupy between "Beautiful and Slick" and "Cool and Sarcastic".

    So...let say they somehow figure out a way to redefine themselves and come out with some universally appealing marketing and a mega cool phone that is even just a bit cheaper than the competition. So...that marketing and phone appeals to people from all walks of life. Apps are still missing. I know you think that having a large portion of the most popular apps is enough and that great marketing and a great phone (and OS) will be enough. I disagree.. and is why I created this post and why I feel it is very important that Microsoft get these Islandwood and Astoria projects working. I'm not a heavy app user by any stretch. But I have listed 6 apps, a few of which I actually NEED. Microsoft will have to bring more to the table than slick marketing and a great phone to lure away *most* any iPhone user. Same with Android. Apps just are not there and of the apps that are there, many do not function as well as apps on the other platform. LINE and Facebook (I'm not a big facebook user, just commenting on the functionality) are two examples that I can compare from when I used an Android phone for a while. Just thinking about it now..the other problem with luring folks away from Android is Google services to include gmail. I have helped a few tech-challenged people through some challenges and all wanted to change from their Hotmail address to gmail because "everyone has one". I have spent quite a bit of my free time helping one tech-challenged individual in particular. I also got my girlfriend's email addresses cleaned up and have her setup now with Outlook.

    IMO, the problems are very real. Microsoft MUST do something that will remove any roadblock for a developer to build apps for the Microsoft platform. If Microsoft gets it right, write once (hopefully) and compile twice seems like a great way to win some developers. Couple that with everything you said and then Microsoft can start building marketshare.
    06-02-2015 01:08 AM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    @mikewp

    Thanks for your efforts here! It's never bad when our community is given a new way to help increase awareness and further our interests. I think your idea is good, but I'd recommend you make a few small adjustments to your template:

    1)
    Remove all the parts suggesting developers owe it to MS to support their ecosystem. Specifically, those parts where you mention how MS is a large part of the developer's business success. Even when it's true, most devs would argue that MS owes them, for tying their customers to MS' products and services.

    Almost every developer would choke on the idea of morally owing MS anything, when it is them that bring new customers to MS. That is not a good start to a mail that should earn sympathy towards our cause.

    2)
    Emphasize the porting of iOS apps over Android. I think it probably would be best not to mention Android or project Astoria at all. The two approaches are not equivalent, and porting Android code is increasingly looking to be a lot more work (most of the time). The more I read about this and hear about it from MS employees, the clearer it has become that iOS apps offer a much better code base for porting.

    3)
    Suggest that devs can't afford not to have a presence on Windows mobile at this time. There is no excuse to leave the ecosystem wide open and uncontested to competitors, when porting existing iOS apps is this affordable.
    Last edited by a5cent; 06-02-2015 at 09:12 AM. Reason: spelling
    06-02-2015 02:28 AM
  10. mikewp's Avatar
    Thanks a5cent. I like your suggestions.

    1. Yes, I agree developers would choke on that. I haven't sent out any other emails besides the one I sent to my bank and another one. I think the email needs to be tailored to the audience and I'm hoping the email reaches someone a level or two above the developer in those cases where the business is big enough. Just trying to appeal on a different level. But ya, I think it can be worded differently or left out altogether (depending on the company).

    2. I agree 100% especially as the new information (to me) has come to light from Elitis. Was just thinking that exact same thing today.

    3. I agree, but that also has to be worded carefully. Sort of the same concern as #1. Not sure if iOS developers have prejudices so need to word that carefully.

    Great suggestions and thanks. I'll work on something and get opinions here before proceeding.
    a5cent and TechFreak1 like this.
    06-02-2015 05:31 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ Yep.
    On a side note, my use of the word "dev" or "developer" above refers not to any specific person or role, but to the development company as a whole.
    If asked to be specific, I'd agree that for most companies, it's the product manager that we should be trying to reach, not the engineering team.
    Laura Knotek and TechFreak1 like this.
    06-02-2015 06:37 AM
  12. Spectrum90's Avatar
    2. I agree 100% especially as the new information (to me) has come to light from Elitis. Was just thinking that exact same thing today.
    Android apps are easier to port, in many cases without any modification of the code. Most ports are going to come from Android.
    06-02-2015 07:15 AM
  13. Jas00555's Avatar
    Android apps are easier to port, in many cases without any modification of the code. Most ports are going to come from Android.
    The Android layer is only on Windows 10 Mobile. Considering 99% of the Windows 10 userbase is going to be using something other than that, I'd imagine that most of the ports would be from iOS. For a mobile only app that would work, maybe a dev would use Android, but I'd be surprised if "most" came from Android.
    Last edited by Jas00555; 06-02-2015 at 01:40 PM.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-02-2015 12:01 PM
  14. Elitis's Avatar
    Mikewp, of course the Windows Store needs to improve app quality and quantity. That point I agree on. When I said, we have enough of the most popular and most used apps already available, I meant to increase market share just enough (or more than enough) to really get developers paying attention. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Microsoft makes the perfect flagship that gets enough people switching over to Windows 10 Mobile regardless of the current app situation that developers start bringing more and better quality apps as well as updating them more frequently, and the cycle repeats. Except that time around, there wouldn't be an app issue.

    Also, I was going to mention you taking out the part in the email about developers owing Microsoft anything as well. Just sounds bad. I think following a5cent's advice would do wonders.

    Spectrum90, yes that is true for the most part. There will be modifications needed though. The code may run, but there may be bugs that were not present in the original code that will need to fixed. I do agree that most ports will likely be from Android though, as while iOS ports have less limitations, there is a bit more work to be done.
    06-02-2015 12:15 PM
  15. Spectrum90's Avatar
    The Android layer is only on Windows 10 Mobile. Considering 99% of the Windows 10 userbase is going to be using something other than that, I'd imagine that most of the poets would be from iOS. For a mobile only app that would work, maybe a dev would use Android, but I'd be surprised if "most" came from Android.
    The web is the platform for the PC, this could change but It takes time. Apps are primarily needed for mobile devices.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-02-2015 12:22 PM
  16. tgp's Avatar
    The Android layer is only on Windows 10 Mobile. Considering 99% of the Windows 10 userbase is going to be using something other than that, I'd imagine that most of the poets would be from iOS. For a mobile only app that would work, maybe a dev would use Android, but I'd be surprised if "most" came from Android.
    But are developers going to prioritize apps for the desktop? It seems that so far they are not used much. It's the mobile devices that NEED the apps!
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-02-2015 12:31 PM
  17. AndyCalling's Avatar
    This'll be just like Steam, where we feel conned and give bad reviews if we download a program and find it is a crappy port. Just wait till the devs see the 'just a crappy port' reviews in the store. It'll either push them into making proper apps or they'll just leave. If I wanted to run Apple or Google apps I'd rather get a device suited to the purpose. It is hard to get excited about rubbish ports (and almost all ports are disappointing compared to proper programs).
    Laura Knotek and theefman like this.
    06-02-2015 12:55 PM
  18. Spectrum90's Avatar
    This'll be just like Steam, where we feel conned and give bad reviews if we download a program and find it is a crappy port. Just wait till the devs see the 'just a crappy port' reviews in the store. It'll either push them into making proper apps or they'll just leave. If I wanted to run Apple or Google apps I'd rather get a device suited to the purpose. It is hard to get excited about rubbish ports (and almost all ports are disappointing compared to proper programs).
    Apps will get good reviews if they work well. If the app is an Android or iOS port is mostly irrelevant for the user. The general public don't understand those concepts. Besides, there is no much difference between versions of apps in different platforms.
    06-02-2015 01:31 PM
  19. mikewp's Avatar
    The web is the platform for the PC, this could change but It takes time. Apps are primarily needed for mobile devices.
    It better start changing now (and it is...the capability is there or going to be there...Microsoft built it, now will they (businesses and developers) come?). Companies are building in extra features to apps that you can't get on the web or even the PC.

    Just 4 examples (I'd have more if I used a lot more apps)

    1. Motogp. I paid around 130 Euros to access streaming for the 2015 season. The Motogp app has the capability to multiple screens, up to 4, during streaming. So I can follow the main presentation and up to 3 other drivers or on the helicopter feed. Logging in to the web site I get access to the separate streams but can only view 1 at a time. Sooooo, I use my Android tablet to watch Motogp events. When I'm on travel working and only have my laptop, I make due with one screen. Motogp will be getting an email from me soon.

    2. Sony playmemories app. This app lets me wirelessly transfer pictures from my RX100III to????? An Apple or Android device; In this case, to my Android tablet and then uploaded to OneDrive which syncs with my laptop eventually. I do that when are on holiday, traveling light and only want to carry the tablet. I also use that to wirelessly transfer photos on our trip to my girlfriends Sony phone as she likes posting to Facebook. Ya...I'm not totally scwewed since I can hook up my camera to my computer or transfer from SD card.

    3. My bank. Won't bore you with the long story, but right now the only access I have to my bank is through the app on my Android tablet. Cannot get in through the website as they do security differently (as I said, long story and I can fix it when I get back to the US).

    4. LINE. OK, what about LINE? Does it make sense for them to continue to develop their crappy Windows app or develop using Project Islandwood? I know which app I would prefer to use and I'd use it on both my phone and laptop.

    I was irritated enough with Microsoft last August that I decided to go with Android. I picked up the tablet and a phone. The services work pretty well, except, managing contacts. I couldn't add contacts without a third party workaround app. Saving numbers and adding a contact from a text message was very klunky and just getting around the OS in general was very klunky. When I got back to Windows (phone and new laptop) it was like I went from swimming against a 5mph river current to swimming with that same current. ahhhhh.

    Like I said, I'm not a prolific app user and even I am running in to limitations. Apps seem to be becoming a big deal. Microsoft, IMO, needs to get out in front of the problem (as much as they can). The 4 apps I mention above could be written right now as Windows 8 or 10 apps and I'd use them.

    So....how do you appeal to developers? Businesses/developers have to be able to significantly increase their user base so it makes sense to be able to run on regular Windows platforms. EVEN then, I'm not hopeful of success, but it's worth the effort.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-03-2015 12:44 AM
  20. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    20k+ posts...Laura Knotek, judging from the posts you "like" in this thread, I'm beginning to think you are not a fan of Windows growing and thriving on phones and tablets. I won't go as far as saying you are a Google hack since you do use some Windows devices, however, you do not have a Windows phone.

    Since you are liking certain posts in this particular thread, there is an interest on your part. Instead of lurking in the shadows, how about you sharing your opinion? Coming from a moderator and someone with 20k+ posts, I would find your insight of value.
    I use/have used: desktop Windows, Windows 8.1 tablet, desktop Linux, BlackBerry, Nokia Symbian, Windows Phone, Android. The only platforms I've never used are: OS X, iOS, webOS, original Windows Mobile, Unix.

    I'm not a fangirl of any platform, nor do I hate any platform.

    I like to try different devices and platforms, since I enjoy tech.

    Ideally, I'd like to see Windows, Android, Apple and BlackBerry all succeed in mobile. More choices are better for consumers. More competition helps fuel innovation.
    Last edited by Laura Knotek; 06-03-2015 at 01:59 AM.
    Visa Declined likes this.
    06-03-2015 01:06 AM
  21. mikewp's Avatar
    Mikewp, of course the Windows Store needs to improve app quality and quantity. That point I agree on. When I said, we have enough of the most popular and most used apps already available, I meant to increase market share just enough (or more than enough) to really get developers paying attention. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Microsoft makes the perfect flagship that gets enough people switching over to Windows 10 Mobile regardless of the current app situation that developers start bringing more and better quality apps as well as updating them more frequently, and the cycle repeats. Except that time around, there wouldn't be an app issue.

    Also, I was going to mention you taking out the part in the email about developers owing Microsoft anything as well. Just sounds bad. I think following a5cent's advice would do wonders.

    Spectrum90, yes that is true for the most part. There will be modifications needed though. The code may run, but there may be bugs that were not present in the original code that will need to fixed. I do agree that most ports will likely be from Android though, as while iOS ports have less limitations, there is a bit more work to be done.
    Elitis, I hear what you are saying..I really do and it would be great if it would work out that way. I just don't think it will work out that way. I hope I am wrong, but in the meantime, I feel like I should do something :-)

    Yes, but in actuality, I wasn't saying that developers owed anything to Microsoft. That part was more geared toward my bank. I was saying that Microsoft played a part in all aspects of their business, which it has and continues to do. Seems odd that a banking business would turn it's back on Microsoft. Again...was trying to appeal to someone above the developer level. I mentioned to another poster that that part should be removed. Anyway, I'm mulling over my next effort as this discussion progresses and I read more information :-)
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-03-2015 01:06 AM
  22. mikewp's Avatar
    I use/have used: desktop Windows, Windows 8.1 tablet, desktop Linux, BlackBerry, Nokia Symbian, Windows Phone, Android. The only platforms I've never used are: OS X, iOS, webOS, original Windows Mobile.

    I'm not a fangirl of any platform, nor do I hate any platform.

    I like to try different devices and platforms, since I enjoy tech.

    Ideally, I'd like to see Windows, Android, Apple and BlackBerry all succeed in mobile. More choices are better for consumers. More competition helps fuel innovation.
    ahhhh, got it (I think?). Still have NO idea where you are coming from with your likes of certain posts. Don't get me wrong, I care not at all if you "like" my posts or "thank" me...I would just like to understand where you are coming from. Another point of view is always good.

    To be clear, I'm not a fanboy either. Linux pays my bills. Before that Solaris and before that SunOS and before that DEC/VAX. I've tried with an open mind Iphones and Android tablets and phones. I've had mobile phones of all types since mobile phones have been out. After all of that, Microsoft OS and devices work GREAT for me (and I LOVE working with Linux at work). Competition is great but I see Microsoft getting the short end of the stick right now and I want them and my home productivity platform of choice to succeed.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-03-2015 01:17 AM
  23. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    ahhhh, got it (I think?). Still have NO idea where you are coming from with your likes of certain posts. Don't get me wrong, I care not at all if you "like" my posts or "thank" me...I would just like to understand where you are coming from. Another point of view is always good.

    To be clear, I'm not a fanboy either. Linux pays my bills. Before that Solaris and before that SunOS and before that DEC/VAX. I've tried with an open mind Iphones and Android tablets and phones. I've had mobile phones of all types since mobile phones have been out. After all of that, Microsoft OS and devices work GREAT for me (and I LOVE working with Linux at work). Competition is great but I see Microsoft getting the short end of the stick right now and I want them and my home productivity platform of choice to succeed.
    I hear you!

    I belong to 2 local Linux User Groups. Linux users are not Microsoft haters in real life. Many of the folks in the Linux User Groups are admins, who support Linux servers and Windows desktops. The folks who use Linux at home typically also use Windows, mainly for gaming. There is no overt or covert hatred for Microsoft amongst the members of the Linux User Groups that I belong to. The Linux User Group members are not all Android users either. There is one guy who has a Windows Phone. There are also members who have BlackBerry devices. Other folks do have Androids.

    I've never used Unix either, but I might try FreeBSD. (I noticed you have experience with Unix.)
    Last edited by Laura Knotek; 06-03-2015 at 02:04 AM.
    06-03-2015 01:27 AM
  24. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Elitis, I hear what you are saying..I really do and it would be great if it would work out that way. I just don't think it will work out that way. I hope I am wrong, but in the meantime, I feel like I should do something :-)

    Yes, but in actuality, I wasn't saying that developers owed anything to Microsoft. That part was more geared toward my bank. I was saying that Microsoft played a part in all aspects of their business, which it has and continues to do. Seems odd that a banking business would turn it's back on Microsoft. Again...was trying to appeal to someone above the developer level. I mentioned to another poster that that part should be removed. Anyway, I'm mulling over my next effort as this discussion progresses and I read more information :-)
    You're probably right about the bank. The ATMs are probably running Windows in some version.
    06-03-2015 02:01 AM
  25. mikewp's Avatar
    You're probably right about the bank. The ATMs are probably running Windows in some version.
    Actually, I was thinking a little bigger. Quite a bit of what actually enables them to do business, is or was based on Microsoft products. Talking about some of the older more established businesses such as banks.
    06-03-2015 05:47 AM
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