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06-07-2015 02:35 PM
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  1. Hoangboy's Avatar
    In their efforts to appease the Luddites, Microsoft has made far more changes than was necessary, mostly at the expense of those who use touch-enabled devices. I am finding W10 all but unusable on my 10" Yoga 2 tablet. Yes, I know it's in beta but I'm not talking about that stuff, I am talking about the fundamental experience of "Tablet Mode" on a tablet. If you look at what everyone disliked about W8, it is relatively easy to come up with a few much simpler changes to keep everyone happy.

    So, what are those issues? It's pretty straightforward, really. They don't like the full-screen Start Menu or the Live Tiles that go on it. They don't like being flung from the Desktop into the Modern UI by default file associations. They don't like hot corners, either. So if all those things ceased to be issues for desktop users, everyone could be happy without too much effort. What's quite disturbing is that Microsoft really haven't addressed all these issues, yet they have changed things that worked perfectly well before. The result of all this effort so far is a desktop experience that is largely the same as W8 but a touch experience that is barely functional. Here is what I think they should do.

    1. W8.1 features. Keep some - hot corners optional, return to last app when you close an app, etc. - but get rid of the pop-up title bars and taskbar from the Modern UI, they just get in the way.

    2. Start Menu/Screen. This is where Microsoft seem to have gone berserk. Nobody asked for all the useless dross from the Win7 Start Menu back, so get rid of it, please. Having the option for a non-full-screen menu makes sense and should stay and some options are handy, like Power, but we don't need an explorer button when there is one on the Taskbar. Get rid of all the Live Tiles. By default, have small tiles for installed apps and change the right-click menu so that medium and large tile entries have a "(Live Tile)" written after the size.

    3. Touch. Leave it alone! We don't want or need a "tablet mode" or Continuum. They make the touch experience awful. Just give us a few options to set up the way we want to work. e.g. Instead of a million options for this or that, all you need to offer is "Optimise for Desktop" or "Optimise for Touch". If you choose the former, you get the new, changed stuff. If you choose the latter, you get what we have now in W8, with the changes I mentioned above. Also get rid of the hot corners but keep the swipe gestures.

    Here are a few mock-ups I've made to show you what I mean.

    Attachment 105996
    This would be the basic Desktop Start Menu. To keep things consistent, all options would be shown in small tiles and those in grey would be persistent (always there). "Pin to Start" would put small tiles in the top area. (I would have manually resized some tiles in this example.)

    Attachment 105997
    This would be what you get when you click on All Apps. This would not be persistent.

    Attachment 105998
    This would be what you get when you click on Live Tiles. This would be persistent. (It would be there next time you opened the menu.)

    And below are a few variations on how it could look for touchscreen work, if they put some of the options from W10 Mobile into it. Note that the grey tiles used for common functions remain in the same spot as on the Desktop and the Taskbar is double width to make the touch targets more finger friendly. Optionally, it could be done away with altogether, I reckon. I certainly don't need it and it just adds clutter.
    Attachment 105999

    Attachment 106000

    Attachment 106001

    Constructive discussion would be most welcome!
    I do not like your concept
    06-06-2015 10:53 PM
  2. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    See this is the problem with you. This is clearly your thoughts. You don't like Windows 7 because you could not be productive with you. On a global scale, you ARE one of the oddballs. Windows 7 is still the best and most popular OS in the WORLD.
    You are giving an emotional response to a factual issue. I'm not just giving you my thoughts on Windows 7, I've given you verifiable, irrefutable facts to back up my argument (on other threads). More to the point, one of those irrefutable facts points to the irrefutable fact that while people say they like Windows 7, there are certain parts of it they have stopped using (the Start Menu).

    OTOH, you cannot provide any empirical evidence that Windows 7 is better in any way, simply that people like it. Obviously that's relevant to Microsoft but surely any objective, right thinking person would be more concerned about what is better, not what is more popular? More importantly, there is no reason at all why Windows 10 cannot be both. And that is the crux of my concern - that the changes they have made have swung the pendulum too far the other way when the right balance is not only possible, but easier to attain.
    So, XP's extending start menu, where things open up as you select them(like in past OS's going from my fav Windows 95) ? When it comes down to day to day use of Windows, that was the big thing that was removed starting in Vista, and 7 ? Is that what your putting up such a fuss for ?
    That was one of many things. There was the cartoonishly oversized chrome, the broken Windows Media Player, the generally uglier look and everything I didn't like about Vista thrown in, too, like the arbitrarily re-ordered Control Panel. They didn't actually fix anything that was bad about Vista SP2, they just changed the way it looked and gave it a new name. Vista SP1 was a bigger upgrade. Seriously, if you were to list the meaningful changes between Vista SP2 and W7, they'd amount to less than some service packs. As with W8, by the time W7 came around, all the minor issues Vista had at launch were long gone and the two OSes were almost identical in the way they performed and functioned. Overall, I don't like Windows 7 because it doesn't fix any of the problems I had with Vista and it added a few new problems of its own (broken WMP, specifically, which was fixed again for W8).
    the only big advancement that I find useful is in Windows 10 believe it or not. In the last build they added a feature that is on Windows phone, when you get a lot of apps to click a letter and it brings you to the apps starting by that letter, This is SO MUCH faster to get to an app than ANYTHING
    As long as you know what the app is called. I have this problem all the time in Windows Phone. e.g. I have 6-8 weather apps installed at any one time and some of them are called "Weather Something" and others are called "Something Weather". I can never remember what they are all called but I can recognise the right app icon for the right weather app. That makes alphabetical listings useless and if it is something I use often enough that I can remember the name, I'll have pinned it to Start, simply because I have vast amounts of space to pin everything. Even something like Photoshop - is it in "A" for Adobe, "C" for Creative Suite or "P" for Photoshop? Then there is Autodesk - some of their applications are under a header called "Autodesk" and others are off by themselves. How are they going to show up in an alphabetical listing? I'm sure I'll learn the structure over time but I'll never be able to map it al lout in my head (see below).
    BTW, have you seen how they have broken the alphabetical navigation in W10 Mobile? Check it out in the Music Preview app, it's nowhere near as good.
    And if it was not pinned to the start menu in 8.1, I found it WORSE to find an app manually than any other Windows OS.
    That was true for me at first but I very quickly got used to it, the way you used to know where everything was with the fly-out menus in 95/98/XP after a while. Today I find it incredibly fast and easy because I have the structure in my memory now, just by using it.
    Windows 10 has a ways to go to fit what Windows 8.1 did on a touch screen.
    Agreed but here is a question for you - why did they have to break the tablet experience? That's the bit I don't get. They aren't making Desktop users happy by keeping the Taskbar up in Tablet Mode, are they? That's just some dummy's idea and it needs to go.

    If they had thrown out the Start Screen and put the Vista Start Menu back in wholesale, I'd get why but instead they have just cluttered it up with the most useless, obsolete and redundant parts of what was in Vista/W7. They may have been aiming for the best of both worlds but what they've given us is the most annoying aspects of each. It's nothing more than lip service and it frustrates the hell out of me that everyone seems happy with that.

    It should be clear as crystal to everyone that desktop users just don't want to see Live Tiles, yet they are still front and centre. It should be equally clear that Windows 8 offers by far the best touch experience of any OS, so why do they seem hell-bent on making Windows 10 easily the worst? I just don't get it.
    Kram Sacul likes this.
    06-06-2015 11:32 PM
  3. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    I do not like your concept
    That's most illuminating, you must have spent a long time pondering your response, Thank you so much for wasting everybody's time and half a page of quotes. Can a moderator please remove his post and this one?
    Kram Sacul, 920Walker and LeFreak like this.
    06-06-2015 11:36 PM
  4. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    You are giving an emotional response to a factual issue. I'm not just giving you my thoughts on Windows 7, I've given you verifiable, irrefutable facts to back up my argument (on other threads). More to the point, one of those irrefutable facts points to the irrefutable fact that while people say they like Windows 7, there are certain parts of it they have stopped using (the Start Menu).

    OTOH, you cannot provide any empirical evidence that Windows 7 is better in any way, simply that people like it. Obviously that's relevant to Microsoft but surely any objective, right thinking person would be more concerned about what is better, not what is more popular? More importantly, there is no reason at all why Windows 10 cannot be both. And that is the crux of my concern - that the changes they have made have swung the pendulum too far the other way when the right balance is not only possible, but easier to attain.

    That was one of many things. There was the cartoonishly oversized chrome, the broken Windows Media Player, the generally uglier look and everything I didn't like about Vista thrown in, too, like the arbitrarily re-ordered Control Panel. They didn't actually fix anything that was bad about Vista SP2, they just changed the way it looked and gave it a new name. Vista SP1 was a bigger upgrade. Seriously, if you were to list the meaningful changes between Vista SP2 and W7, they'd amount to less than some service packs. As with W8, by the time W7 came around, all the minor issues Vista had at launch were long gone and the two OSes were almost identical in the way they performed and functioned. Overall, I don't like Windows 7 because it doesn't fix any of the problems I had with Vista and it added a few new problems of its own (broken WMP, specifically, which was fixed again for W8).

    As long as you know what the app is called. I have this problem all the time in Windows Phone. e.g. I have 6-8 weather apps installed at any one time and some of them are called "Weather Something" and others are called "Something Weather". I can never remember what they are all called but I can recognise the right app icon for the right weather app. That makes alphabetical listings useless and if it is something I use often enough that I can remember the name, I'll have pinned it to Start, simply because I have vast amounts of space to pin everything. Even something like Photoshop - is it in "A" for Adobe, "C" for Creative Suite or "P" for Photoshop? Then there is Autodesk - some of their applications are under a header called "Autodesk" and others are off by themselves. How are they going to show up in an alphabetical listing? I'm sure I'll learn the structure over time but I'll never be able to map it al lout in my head (see below).
    BTW, have you seen how they have broken the alphabetical navigation in W10 Mobile? Check it out in the Music Preview app, it's nowhere near as good.

    That was true for me at first but I very quickly got used to it, the way you used to know where everything was with the fly-out menus in 95/98/XP after a while. Today I find it incredibly fast and easy because I have the structure in my memory now, just by using it.

    Agreed but here is a question for you - why did they have to break the tablet experience? That's the bit I don't get. They aren't making Desktop users happy by keeping the Taskbar up in Tablet Mode, are they? That's just some dummy's idea and it needs to go.

    If they had thrown out the Start Screen and put the Vista Start Menu back in wholesale, I'd get why but instead they have just cluttered it up with the most useless, obsolete and redundant parts of what was in Vista/W7. They may have been aiming for the best of both worlds but what they've given us is the most annoying aspects of each. It's nothing more than lip service and it frustrates the hell out of me that everyone seems happy with that.

    It should be clear as crystal to everyone that desktop users just don't want to see Live Tiles, yet they are still front and centre. It should be equally clear that Windows 8 offers by far the best touch experience of any OS, so why do they seem hell-bent on making Windows 10 easily the worst? I just don't get it.
    You keep throwing around 'irrefutable' but everything you say is, in fact, refutable. They're opinions, quite simply. And your responses have quickly evolved from friendly replies to vehement snaps. Please, remember this is a friendly environment to have a mature discussion, and don't get too heated. You talk as if you expect everyone to suddenly see the light and agree with you, and we're all morons for not understanding exactly and precisely what you're trying to tell us.
    fatclue_98 and DavidinCT like this.
    06-07-2015 12:14 AM
  5. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    Bottom line...Windows 10 is here! And it has no intention of leaving. From where I stand (regardless of where this is in relation to everyone else) it only needs minor improvements before it's ready for release. That does NOT mean it's a complete, finished, final product, it has plenty of room for refinement...but that's how it is. I like what Microsoft has done, I like the UI, and I look forward to seeing it evolve over time. Agree with me, disagree, hate or love me, whatever. That's where I stand.
    I will use Windows 10 gladly, and draw more opinions from the final product. I will watch it evolve and improve, and will enjoy it's progress. It's always nice to watch technology evolve.
    06-07-2015 12:20 AM
  6. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    You say these things as if they're facts, indisputable and undeniably correct, regardless of the thoughts of others.
    That's because they are mostly facts. And where they aren't I think they take fair regard of others' thoughts. If it was simply what I wanted for myself, I'd just stick with what's in W8, but I am trying to think of a way to make it good for everyone, based on what little concrete evidence I have been provided by others.
    In my opinion (emphasis on 'my'), Windows 8 is far inferior to Windows 7 (and in extension XP) when using a mouse and keyboard. It's far from useless, as I predominantly use a mouse and keyboard, but I still prefer Windows 7's intuitiveness.
    If you can't tell us why you think it is inferior, how can anyone work what needs improving? I can tell you EXACTLY why I do and don't like each version, why can't anyone else? e.g. One of the big things I disliked about W7 is how unintuitive it was after more than a decade on NT4, W2000 and XP. It was much, much harder to get used to than Win8, simply because many of the changes were hidden from view, like the re-ordered Control Panel. Probably the best example of Windows 7's lack of discoverability is that even though I used it for more than 3 years, I never knew you could hit the WIN key and start typing to search for applications until after I had moved to Win8.
    But what I really don't understand is how you claimed the "developers are flying blind" when this OS was built on user feedback.
    So was Windows 8 but look how wide of the mark that has been. The process was just as open, with regular blog posts providing insight into what drove many of the changes and new features. In fact, as I've mentioned already, the Start Screen came about because user feedback told them everyone had stopped using the Start Menu in W7.
    Microsoft has too much riding on the success of Windows 10 and their universal plan to experiment blindly and throw out another Windows 8 without testing it first.
    Do you know how long the preview/beta period for Windows 8 was? It went from September 2011 to October 2012, more than a year. How long is this preview/beta period? It's just 10 months, so not even as long as for Win8. Given that, you can't really expect it to be as good, can you?
    That's why the Insider Preview exists, and why four million users are currently running a beta version of Windows 10 and providing feedback on their opinions on usability and design.
    When they released the first Consumer Preview, after several Developer Preview releases, they had more than one million downloads in 24 hours, so they were getting plenty of feedback on W8, too.
    Microsoft has changed a lot of design decisions and added a lot of little details to improve fluidity, all on the basis of user feedback. From what I've seen, people prefer the Start Menu to the Start Screen.
    Which one? Because the one in W10 has far more in common with W8 than it does with W7. In fact, I can't see a single feature from the Vista/W7 Start Menu in W10. Not one. All they have done is partially aped the layout to make it seem like W7 but in reality it is just a repackaged W8 Start Screen.
    I'm no expert, but I can follow logic, and from where I'm standing yours doesn't quite add up. Honestly, mostly because you claim what you say is fact (even if you don't say that outright).
    I'm sorry but your argument is very short on logic. Your "logic" seems to be that if people prefer it, it must be better, even though no-one can give any concrete reasons for their preference and there is real, concrete, irrefutable evidence that it is measurably worse. Seriously, read this entire thread, read the "I HATE Windows 10" thread and any other here and you will see, overwhelmingly, that every argument in favour of W10 is utterly devoid of relevant facts. It is all about emotion, nothing more and should therefore be ignored.

    I am completely open to being convinced, all you need to do is show me why I should be. Be aware, though, that "everyone else likes it" is not convincing at all, unless you can point me to specific areas where it is measurably better. I'll give you an example of a properly constructed, persuasive argument - my new Astra GTC Sport is better than my old Alfa Romeo Brera because it has a larger boot, a more powerful engine, better ride and similar handling. It tells you what I think - that my new car is better - and, crucially, it tells you why in terms that are easy to understand/verify and difficult to refute - more space, more power, better ride. Now, I'm sure a lot of people would disagree (look them up if you don't know what they are) but if someone came back to me and simply said "the Brera is a much nicer car", why would I or anyone else put any stock in that opinion? OTOH, if someone said "but the Brera is better geared, the engine revs cleaner to the redline and it's double wishbone front and independent rear suspension works better over a wider variety of conditions", people would read that and possibly be persuaded. (In reality, I love both equally, for different reasons.) I hope you can see the difference and understand why it matters.
    06-07-2015 12:40 AM
  7. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    I like what Microsoft has done, I like the UI, and I look forward to seeing it evolve over time.
    What aspect of the UI? The Live Tiles? Any or all of the three different styles of icons it currently employs? The increased visual clutter? The big, white search bar on the dark Taskbar? The mix of new full-width dialogs and old-style tabbed windows?

    The UI seems to me to have been largely ignored. I hoped they would either consolidate the changes from W8 or abandon them but we still have multiple styles of things all over the place. It remains the same dog's breakfast it was in W8. e.g. Most Control Panel items have abandoned a tabbed layout in favour of a menu down the left side but some, like Sound, still open in a little, tabbed window like they did in Win95. And even though it was revamped in W8, Task Manager still has tabs. That's just sloppy, don't you think?
    06-07-2015 01:01 AM
  8. Harry Wild's Avatar
    Just hope Windows 10 has a setting or choice where you can set the type of start menu and if you want tiles or not on the desktop. I really prefer the simple look; just the start menu and no tiles on the desktop but short cut icon along the side and down along the bottom. Other then that; that all about 99% of Windows users want in the UI! Microsoft got carry away and took out the start menu and gave us the start screen which was almost impossible to use and totally confusing. Now hopefully, in Windows 10; you can get back to the look and feel of earlier Windows like XP and 7!

    It should be too much trouble to get the UI back to were people can actually use it like the eariler versions. Not sure what Windows 10 is in the desktop but looking at the picture here; I don't like it at all! Then need to clean it up before release the "production" version of Windows 10 so it looks normal!
    06-07-2015 01:48 AM
  9. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    You keep throwing around 'irrefutable' but everything you say is, in fact, refutable. They're opinions, quite simply.
    OK, refute this - on average, it takes measurably more interaction with the UI in W10 to navigate to a particular application icon in All Apps than it does in W8. Or this - every feature in the W10 Start Menu comes from W8, there is nothing in it at all from W7, not even the layout. Both those things, upon which one of my many opinions is based, are facts, irrefutable facts. The conclusions I have drawn to form that opinion is logical, straightforward even. If the facts are irrefutable and the logic leading to the opinion based upon them is sound, then it stands to reason that the opinion cannot successfully be refuted.
    And your responses have quickly evolved from friendly replies to vehement snaps. Please, remember this is a friendly environment to have a mature discussion, and don't get too heated.
    What do you expect when I ask for discussion and get "everybody else likes it, what's your problem?"?
    You talk as if you expect everyone to suddenly see the light and agree with you, and we're all morons for not understanding exactly and precisely what you're trying to tell us.
    No, I would just like it if people could construct a reasonable argument so there could be some "mature" discussion. You don't have to agree with me, I really just want to understand what it is that maybe I am not seeing. But please do me the courtesy of making some effort to elucidate your opinions via a direct comparison or a specific feature - something I could maybe go and try for myself to see what you mean. But no, instead we get drivel like "It's far from useless, as I predominantly use a mouse and keyboard, but I still prefer Windows 7's intuitiveness." How does the fact that someone uses a mouse and keyboard have any bearing on the uselessness or otherwise of an operating system? (And let's not go into the "intuitiveness" of Windows 7 again.)

    I'll give you another example. Over the last couple of weeks at least half-a-dozen people, even a moderator today, have either intimated or just flat-out said that the keyboard-mouse experience in Windows 8 is worse than it is in Windows 7, without further explanation. On each occasion I have asked politely for some explanations or examples of this but, to date, I have received bupkis in response. Given that my own extensive use of W8/8.1 has revealed to me that the keyboard-mouse experience in Windows 8 is largely identical to that of every other version of Windows I have used in the last 20 years, and where it is different it is always better, what conclusion can I draw other than that person doesn't know what he's talking about?
    For example, someone could say that all the tiles on the Start Screen are too large and force you to move your mouse around too much, which would explain to everyone why they think what they do. Of course, if they tried that one, I could produce an image that shows that a small tile on the Start Screen is considerably smaller than a desktop icon and that two pinned applications in the W7 Start Menu take up more space than four small tiles.

    The idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid might hold true for "what's your favourite colour?" or "who's your favourite Spice Girl?" but not in this kind of discussion.
    LeFreak likes this.
    06-07-2015 01:52 AM
  10. Sunstorming's Avatar
    I think if people don't like the W8 Start Screen, and clearly many don't (although I get the strong impression most of those people have not even tried it), then the simplest way to deal with it is to educate them <--SNIP-->.
    I know a software developer that refuses to go to Windows 8.1 ... sticking with Windows 7 Pro. Might try Windows 10 Pro, not sure yet however. Why? The Start Menu. This guy told me the reason being is he shouldn't have to take 5 minutes to install Classic Shell or whatever start menu replacement and configure it. Why? Cause he has too much other stuff to do and shouldn't have to. This is a developer, who is smarter than most people I know to exist, including myself. It's an inconvenience to him to do so and he made it known that he shouldn't have to, however capable he is. Imagine mom or grandpa for the first time, even 3 years ago, turning on Windows 8 and seeing the mess that is the start screen and attempting to get the damn start menu back in vain? And all they want to do is go on eBay or Target or something and buy something???
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-07-2015 02:01 AM
  11. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    Microsoft got carry away and took out the start menu and gave us the start screen which was almost impossible to use and totally confusing.
    I am sorry but that is just about the most stupid thing I have ever read about Windows 8. How can the Start Screen possibly be "almost impossible to use" when it works exactly like the desktop shortcuts you seem so fond of? You drag them around into the spot you want them, then click on one to open the application or folder or web page it points to. What's so hard about that? You even add them in exactly the same way you add a shortcut to the W7 Start Menu or Taskbar. There is literally nothing to learn if you can use any other version of Windows.
    MicrosoftWinPho and LeFreak like this.
    06-07-2015 02:04 AM
  12. Motor_Mouth's Avatar
    I know a software developer that refuses to go to Windows 8.1 ... sticking with Windows 7 Pro. Might try Windows 10 Pro, not sure yet however. Why? The Start Menu. This guy told me the reason being is he shouldn't have to take 5 minutes to install Classic Shell or whatever start menu replacement and configure it. Why? Cause he has too much other stuff to do and shouldn't have to.
    Well, the good news for this guy is that he doesn't have to do that, the Start Screen works even better than any 3rd party alternative. This is a perfect example of blind prejudice. If he has stuck with W7, then he can't have had much, if any experience using W8 so his opinion is worthless. Maybe if he had used it for a year and gone back to W7, there might be some glimmer of validity but if he has refused to install it, he can't know what it's like, can he?
    Imagine mom or grandpa for the first time, even 3 years ago, turning on Windows 8 and seeing the mess that is the start screen and attempting to get the damn start menu back in vain? And all they want to do is go on eBay or Target or something and buy something???
    Why would "mom or grandpa" want the Start Menu back? This is such an absurd argument, I can hardly believe I am bothering to respond. If all they want to do is get on-line, W8 would present them with a great, big IE logo in a big, blue tile, something they would definitely recognise from previous versions of Windows, and off they'd go. Or if the PC had been configured to boot to the desktop, they'd just click on the IE shortcut on the Taskbar, like everyone does with W7. And if they knew how to configure their Wi-Fi in W7, they would also be able to do it in W8 because the same process works in both versions.
    920Walker, LeFreak and Kram Sacul like this.
    06-07-2015 02:18 AM
  13. Sunstorming's Avatar
    I am sorry but that is just about the most stupid thing I have ever read about Windows 8. How can the Start Screen possibly be "almost impossible to use" when it works exactly like the desktop shortcuts you seem so fond of? You drag them around into the spot you want them, then click on one to open the application or folder or web page it points to. What's so hard about that? You even add them in exactly the same way you add a shortcut to the W7 Start Menu or Taskbar. There is literally nothing to learn if you can use any other version of Windows.
    Its not stupid. I have a Surface Pro 3 that I use almost always with a mouse, and one of the reasons (aside of me flat out hating the smears it leaves on the the screen with my fingers) is because dragging around the tiles with my fingers is positively maddening. I can deal on the phone I have (Nokia Lumia 1520) but get me over a 7" screen and its a mouse I am reaching for.

    Same with corporate / businesses. You think Joe Q. Worksalot sitting in front of his new Dell Whatever 27" Touchscreen capable All-in-One machine is dragging crap around the start screen with his greasy fingers? No way, he's using a mouse, and he wants his start menu back cause the horizontal scrolling that comes with dragging your finger is a royal pain in the ***. Not only that, but the Start menu was there since 1995 and it was a massive success cause it worked. You seem to be the type that hates the clutter of desktop icon shortcuts, yet you like the start screen which is NOTHING BUT DESKTOP ICON SHORTCUTS. Weird.

    Anyhow, I will be clicking "Desktop" on the Start Screen on my devices until Windows 10 comes out, at which point I will joyfully upgrade and be done with the mess that is the Start Screen.
    Laura Knotek and ronty like this.
    06-07-2015 02:23 AM
  14. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    A desktop power user isn't going to use the Modern interface, since he or she prefers multiple windows in customizable sizes in the desktop.

    Sent from my rooted Nexus 7 (2013) using Tapatalk
    06-07-2015 02:27 AM
  15. r4incs's Avatar
    What a discussion. It is simple, really: Windows 10 is more of successor to Windows 7 than Windows 8. Most people don't like Windows 8, not that it is necessarily bad OS, but over years it got "Vista stigma", so MS is backtracking to successful Windows 7.

    So it is no wonder (some) people who enjoy Windows 8 do not like Windows 10. Funny thing, some people who enjoy Windows 7 do not either, as for them it is still "too radical" change. But I guess there is no perfect OS for everybody.
    DavidinCT likes this.
    06-07-2015 04:50 AM
  16. ronty's Avatar
    I completely agree. The worst part about the start screen is definitely the horizontal scrolling, which becomes an even bigger problem on a laptop. The start screen simply does a terrible job at grouping the shortcuts(the groups are a useless idea) & it becomes even more difficult to search for an application since it does not pin itself automatically to the start screen(when it did on W8, it simply became too cluttered & almost unusable).
    This is why it's such a poor implementation for the mouse, keyboard & most importantly, the TOUCHPAD users.
    06-07-2015 05:05 AM
  17. r4incs's Avatar
    Well, you can always stick with Windows 8. It will be supported for some time. MS promised, that Windows 10 will be evolving, so they may add more Windows 8-like features later.
    06-07-2015 05:47 AM
  18. hiya15's Avatar
    @Motor_Mouth - You ,sir, have a lot of time to spare.
    DavidinCT likes this.
    06-07-2015 06:30 AM
  19. TechFreak1's Avatar
    In their efforts to appease the Luddites, Microsoft has made far more changes than was necessary, mostly at the expense of those who use touch-enabled devices. I am finding W10 all but unusable on my 10" Yoga 2 tablet. Yes, I know it's in beta but I'm not talking about that stuff, I am talking about the fundamental experience of "Tablet Mode" on a tablet. If you look at what everyone disliked about W8, it is relatively easy to come up with a few much simpler changes to keep everyone happy.

    So, what are those issues? It's pretty straightforward, really. They don't like the full-screen Start Menu or the Live Tiles that go on it. They don't like being flung from the Desktop into the Modern UI by default file associations. They don't like hot corners, either. So if all those things ceased to be issues for desktop users, everyone could be happy without too much effort. What's quite disturbing is that Microsoft really haven't addressed all these issues, yet they have changed things that worked perfectly well before. The result of all this effort so far is a desktop experience that is largely the same as W8 but a touch experience that is barely functional.
    These so-called Luddites are enterprise users and like it or not Microsoft makes pretty much all their money off enterprise users - who all pretty much happen to be mouse and keyboard users. 90% of enterprise applications are not optimised for touch or high resolution screens as often they tend to use legacy applications and out-dated-standards (which is why IE was always bogged down with legacy code).

    So it was only natural they would react in such a way to bring back these users. They had to by necessity as these large corporations would have transition to Windows 7 and later perhaps the competition If Microsoft remained the course they were pursuing with Windows 8.

    The money that Microsoft makes off consumers is no way near enough to warrant a draconian approach with enterprise and corporate entities. However if they did take such as stance; they would have lost a lot of money in the long term as repeat business transitioned away to other solutions.

    Simply because the crux of the issue with Windows 8 was that users would have need to re-trained to adjust to a new way of working, experienced staff let go (those who couldn't make the transition), a new recruitment drive for younger employees who are used to the "new modern approach" and without experienced staff to mentor these new recruits it would lead to chaos or it could help them transition successfully - BUT all this costs time and money. Then to compound matters you have the issue with compatibility, speaking of which Windows 10 has compatibility mode for Xp and even 95 (if you don't have this then your not running Windows 10 Pro).

    People like yourself won't admit it - Windows 8 had fundamental design flaws, the 8.1 updated addressed some glaringly obvious flaws but it came too late.

    1. W8.1 features. Keep some - hot corners optional, return to last app when you close an app, etc. - but get rid of the pop-up title bars and taskbar from the Modern UI, they just get in the way.
    The are options in the task bar for hot corners and charms, that are greyed out (have been for the past builds). I imagine they could be enabled via workarounds; however as the previews has been pretty buggy for me I have not played around with them - in case I make it worse. I imagine Microsoft could easily re-enable these.

    2. Start Menu/Screen. This is where Microsoft seem to have gone berserk. Nobody asked for all the useless dross from the Win7 Start Menu back, so get rid of it, please. Having the option for a non-full-screen menu makes sense and should stay and some options are handy, like Power, but we don't need an explorer button when there is one on the Taskbar. Get rid of all the Live Tiles. By default, have small tiles for installed apps and change the right-click menu so that medium and large tile entries have a "(Live Tile)" written after the size.
    Yes, they did - a lot of people voted with their wallets and then you have enterprise users - [covered in the previously].

    3. Touch. Leave it alone! We don't want or need a "tablet mode" or Continuum. They make the touch experience awful. Just give us a few options to set up the way we want to work. e.g. Instead of a million options for this or that, all you need to offer is "Optimise for Desktop" or "Optimise for Touch". If you choose the former, you get the new, changed stuff. If you choose the latter, you get what we have now in W8, with the changes I mentioned above. Also get rid of the hot corners but keep the swipe gestures.
    Let's make something clear here, when you say "we" - your not speaking for every body but for the individuals who prefer how Windows 8 worked and don't care about the impact this has on users who have become accustomed to the old method. Which in this case would be older people, a lot of upper management in corps & enterprise, grand parents etc who have become so used to the traditional method and who can blame them?

    This method hasn't changed since the 90s.

    Plus you have users without touch screen PCs, laptops and tablets.

    Not to mention when Windows 8 came out, the bulk of PC's shipped with it - did not have a touch screen - even Ballmer confirmed that at Build 2014.

    Furthermore Continuum is needed for phones to give a PC-like-experience when docked or attached wirelessly to a bigger screen. However a Phone is not meant to replace the PC but to be additional accessory / extension. Battery tech & cooling has not caught up to a point where a user could run a virtual machine on a phone. A tablet is a more appropriate replacement - you could run a VM on this albeit it would be slow and choppy due to the lack of resources - low CPU, limited ram etc.


    Here are a few mock-ups I've made to show you what I mean.

    Attachment 105996
    This would be the basic Desktop Start Menu. To keep things consistent, all options would be shown in small tiles and those in grey would be persistent (always there). "Pin to Start" would put small tiles in the top area. (I would have manually resized some tiles in this example.)

    Attachment 105997
    This would be what you get when you click on All Apps. This would not be persistent.

    Attachment 105998
    This would be what you get when you click on Live Tiles. This would be persistent. (It would be there next time you opened the menu.)

    And below are a few variations on how it could look for touchscreen work, if they put some of the options from W10 Mobile into it. Note that the grey tiles used for common functions remain in the same spot as on the Desktop and the Taskbar is double width to make the touch targets more finger friendly. Optionally, it could be done away with altogether, I reckon. I certainly don't need it and it just adds clutter.
    Attachment 105999

    Attachment 106000

    Attachment 106001

    Constructive discussion would be most welcome!
    The Mock ups look half decent [pretty good - removed- {strikethrough not working for me} See Edit], however if you want a touch centric O/S then you would need to revise the system tray (some food for thought ), increase the start button and Cortana's search box by a few pixels and center them on the task bar so they are centered with the taskbar icons (just nit picking). In regards to the last screen shot, make the a icons a little grey or give them a dual tone for contrast (perhaps an undertone of the accent colour?) so they don't completely merge into the background when a bright background is used.

    Edit:

    Initially, I felt ending my post addressing the obvious flaws would be overly negative and I admit I did not read page 2 of this thread. Now that I have, I feel that was not the right call as the OP's responses to some posters are clearly a) emotional b) stubbornness to a degree that a dose of harsh constructive criticism would give insight to what the OP called as facts are nothing but emotional responses to changes imposed by Microsoft.

    The underlying fact of Windows 10 Technical preview is that Microsoft can obtain feedback and impact change tailored combined with their design ethos to said feedback
    .

    Users are no where near in charge of how this progresses, the o/s is not being designed by a committee for several million users... if that was true Microsoft would be constant flip flopping from one iteration to the next.


    The most glaring obvious flaw in the OP's design is the redundant option for Live tiles once the start "menu" is loaded up. It is only necessary in the "all apps scenario". The second obvious flaw is the option for "all apps" when "all apps" are showing.

    Another not so obvious flaw is how will the OP's "tablet mode" work in portrait orientation?

    To presume all users would simply be comfortable in horizontal scrolling with a visible task bar with tiny UX system tray elements in portrait mode would be just silly .

    If your going to stick to what you are saying and going to class everything as "gospel" (basically everyone in the world is agreement with you - which is clearly not the case) then your going to have to go further than a few mock ups.


    • A design ethos is needed to be detailed in depth.
    • How you plan to tackle different scenarios again explained in depth.
    • What would be the over riding priorities in terms of goals - a pragmatic approach that would work in reality.


    Windows is not just used by a handful of countries but almost everyone in the entire world and thus the things one may think that are redundant will far reaching consequences on a scale unimaginable.

    Windows is not all things to all people, but it is (one way or another) the central conduit to almost everyone's lives. So to make Windows all things to all people is no measly task and the saying goes - you can't make everyone happy.

    Thus a balance has to be struck - the balance was way off with Windows 8.

    Windows 10 in my opinion is teetering almost on balance and time will tell if it tips to one side or is balance thus able to become everything to all people. Which once achieved would most likely accomplish what Satya Nadella said "we want people to go from using windows to loving windows".
    Last edited by TechFreak1; 06-07-2015 at 08:44 AM.
    fatclue_98 and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-07-2015 06:49 AM
  20. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    This is the part of the post where I get the most chuckles.

    This is where Microsoft seem to have gone berserk. Nobody asked for all the useless dross from the Win7 Start Menu back, so get rid of it, please.
    Just about everybody asked for it back. Whether or not you think it's better or not is irrelevant. Most people wanted the Windows 7 style Start Menu back. Just look at popular Start Menu replacements for Windows 8 (Classic Shell and Start8 come to mind) and realize they're both modeled after the Windows 7 Start Menu.

    One of the problems seems to be that the thread is trying to say what you like and don't like is what everyone does. The idea really hits home when you say:

    I certainly don't need it and it just adds clutter.
    Then we get to the mockups, which show a rather poor Start Menu. Most people wouldn't want that. If they wanted to continue to alienate desktop users, they could just stick with Windows 8. And your mockups don't even look good. The Start Menu has the search bar being in-line with the icons. Then the menu has it being slightly up, which just looks horrible.

    I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that it's a great thing that you don't work for Microsoft. If Windows is teetering on the edge of pushing desktop users away with Windows 8, and some have argued that, you would push them away with gusto.
    TechFreak1 and xboxonthego3 like this.
    06-07-2015 07:20 AM
  21. sweatshopking's Avatar
    windows 10 sucks on any touch device. it's MOTHER FLIPPING TERRIBLE on my dell venue 8 pro, it's horrible on my wifes SP2, and it sucks on the phone. it's OK on the desktop, but garbage on touch. the new "do you want to switch to tablet mode" is moronic and stupid. it's a horrible OS and a huge step back in usability. IN reality, it'll sell better because the masses by 300$ computers without touch and want their start menu cause learning is hard.
    920Walker and LeFreak like this.
    06-07-2015 07:23 AM
  22. MicrosoftWinPho's Avatar
    I don't understand that. I'm using a desktop PC (no touch) with mouse and keyboard and I love the start screen. The screen is so much better than the menu.
    06-07-2015 07:43 AM
  23. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    windows 10 sucks on any touch device. it's MOTHER FLIPPING TERRIBLE on my dell venue 8 pro, it's horrible on my wifes SP2, and it sucks on the phone. it's OK on the desktop, but garbage on touch. the new "do you want to switch to tablet mode" is moronic and stupid. it's a horrible OS and a huge step back in usability. IN reality, it'll sell better because the masses by 300$ computers without touch and want their start menu cause learning is hard.
    Using it on my Surface Pro 3, in tablet mode. I don't see how it's terrible.​
    xboxonthego3 likes this.
    06-07-2015 07:49 AM
  24. MicrosoftWinPho's Avatar
    I too hated Windows 7 was the one of the worst OS' by Microsoft including 2000 and XP but unfortunately it still has the biggest share. 10 looks like it's going to be just as bad as 7 was.
    06-07-2015 07:50 AM
  25. TechFreak1's Avatar
    Then we get to the mockups, which show a rather poor Start Menu. Most people wouldn't want that. If they wanted to continue to alienate desktop users, they could just stick with Windows 8. And your mockups don't even look good. The Start Menu has the search bar being in-line with the icons. Then the menu has it being slightly up, which just looks horrible.
    They are not that bad (I have seen worse lol, not going to point fingers or link them - some worms a best kept in their own bubble ), granted the OP's mock ups do have various obvious flaws. Such as the clicking for "Live Tiles" is redundant one scenario and clicking for "all apps" is redundant in another. However I didn't bring them up my previous post as I felt it would make it harshly negative however now reading page 2 of this thread and the OP's responses, I feel that may not have been the right thing to do (hence this post and edit of my initial post.)
    920Walker likes this.
    06-07-2015 08:41 AM
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