06-07-2015 02:35 PM
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  1. Yazen's Avatar
    I don't want to see any WinRT apps on my desktop period. I don't use them at all.
    On my laptop I will occasionally open certain apps such as Skype and music, and would like to see them on the start menu.
    On my tablet I want a start screen, and often use apps exclusively.

    Why can't my desktop be a desktop, my laptop be a laptop, and my tablet be a tablet? Certainly there will be times where my only computer is a tablet, and I will need to use a Win32 application. However this is an anomaly, much like me running a WinRT app on my desktop.

    Is my usage pattern weird?
    DavidinCT likes this.
    06-07-2015 09:01 AM
  2. anon(9057135)'s Avatar
    Thank god these are options in Windows 10 XD I was afraid that I'd have to use a Fugly Start Menu!
    06-07-2015 11:09 AM
  3. fatclue_98's Avatar
    OTOH, you cannot provide any empirical evidence that Windows 7 is better in any way, simply that people like it.
    Is this empirical enough?

    Operating system market share
    Laura Knotek and Tom Snyder like this.
    06-07-2015 11:10 AM
  4. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    No, Windows 10 is not going too far. In fact it's not (yet) going far enough but with the obvious changes in how MSFT has structured the way the OS works they now have room to expand and improve as with 8.1 it was just a radical departure with no real room to go anywhere else after that.

    I think they decided to get the desktop as good as possible within the new design and direction, hen work on getting touch as good as they can within the same framework so that any form factor will allow transparent use of apps without getting in the way of others.

    The OP mock-ups really show how hard this is and frankly are not good at all IMO. They focus way too much on touch and fall into the same traps MSFT did with 8.1 ..

    Right now and as I see it, Desktop is coming around just fine and mobile will be good once it stabilizes. I expect the touch experience to mature and grow over the next months after release and be ready for the holiday season when Surface Pro 4 arrives.
    06-07-2015 11:13 AM
  5. fatclue_98's Avatar
    That's most illuminating, you must have spent a long time pondering your response, Thank you so much for wasting everybody's time and half a page of quotes. Can a moderator please remove his post and this one?
    ​His opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. No one has a monopoly on opinions on this forum, including an OP.
    06-07-2015 11:13 AM
  6. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    Is this empirical enough?

    Operating system market share
    Bigger market share != a better product and to even imply as much is just silly, I guess you then also believe that VHS was superior to Betamax or V2000

    The way things are going I'd be surprised if WIN7 is still #1 by such a wide margin by the end of the year and it certainly will not be in the #1 slot this time next year.

    Both WIN8.1 and WIN10 are considerably better at core OS performance than WIN7.
    06-07-2015 11:15 AM
  7. HerronScott's Avatar
    There's simply no way to tell if you can't see the graphics of the Taskbar, is there? That's because the Desktop offers exactly the same overall experience as it has since Windows NT 4.0. The graphics are different, some of the tools have evolved, e.g. Task Manager and Start, but nothing in Windows 8.1 works to the detriment of working on the desktop with a mouse and keyboard. Not. One. Single. Thing..
    I disagree. I want a traditional Start menu on the desktop to get to programs that I use less frequently (and thus would not pin to the desktop or taskbar without going back to a different UI and the Start screen in Windows 8.1. I find that very disruptive to have to switch.

    I've not seen Windows 10 on a tablet but I will say that I like Windows 8.1 on our Dell Venue 8 tablets given what we use them for.

    Scott
    06-07-2015 11:16 AM
  8. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid might hold true for "what's your favourite colour?" or "who's your favourite Spice Girl?" but not in this kind of discussion.
    ​Sorry, everyone's opinion carries the same weight. One does not need to give an explanation for how they feel, it's purely subjective.
    06-07-2015 11:17 AM
  9. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    Imagine mom or grandpa for the first time, even 3 years ago, turning on Windows 8 and seeing the mess that is the start screen and attempting to get the damn start menu back in vain? And all they want to do is go on eBay or Target or something and buy something???
    They're not blind and have amnesia, right? There's a big tile that has the Internet Explorer logo on it. That's a good starting point. (MotorMouth beat me to this, doh)

    I still can't believe the lame excuses some people put up for not taking a minute to learn stuff. Makes you wonder how people put up with the start menu when it first came out.
    920Walker and Yazen like this.
    06-07-2015 11:23 AM
  10. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Bigger market share != a better product and to even imply as much is just silly, I guess you then also believe that VHS was superior to Betamax or V2000

    The way things are going I'd be surprised if WIN7 is still #1 by such a wide margin by the end of the year and it certainly will not be in the #1 slot this time next year.

    Both WIN8.1 and WIN10 are considerably better at core OS performance than WIN7.
    If you'll note that XP still has almost as much as 8 & 8.1 combined. Does that make XP better? No, but you forget that many people don't have the resources to buy new machines if their present systems suffice. Also, many businesses still run XP and the majority of medical programs are still 2000 Pro. I am forced to keep an XP tablet to be able to run diagnostic programs for medical gas alarm systems in hospitals.

    ​It's not about what's better, it's about what will bring the most users to the fold. Windows 10 has a greater chance to succeed than 8 or 8.1 and the numbers bear that out.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-07-2015 11:34 AM
  11. fatclue_98's Avatar
    They're not blind and have amnesia, right? There's a big tile that has the Internet Explorer logo on it. That's a good starting point. (MotorMouth beat me to this, doh)

    I still can't believe the lame excuses some people put up for not taking a minute to learn stuff. Makes you wonder how people put up with the start menu when it first came out.
    If there's a live tile showing a new game how is anyone supposed to know that's the store app? Same goes for any other live tile if it's displaying information instead of the actual app - particularly to a new user.
    06-07-2015 11:42 AM
  12. anon(5383410)'s Avatar
    To each his own but I personally like tablet mode on my surface pro 3 and have been generally pleased with the overall experience. The UI needs refinement (which I'm sure is underway since they're shooting for 7/29) so the last few months are probably dedicated to bringing fluidity to the UI.

    As for doing "too much" to appease the masses I'd disagree. For the most part the masses aren't power users who would've been happy with less compromise and MS is running a business after all. They're also trying to gain traction in mobile computing and recover from the poor reception of Windows 8, so I think incorporating a lot more of what the users want in the unprecedented way they have was a great idea.
    06-07-2015 11:48 AM
  13. HerronScott's Avatar
    If you can't tell us why you think it is inferior, how can anyone work what needs improving? I can tell you EXACTLY why I do and don't like each version, why can't anyone else? e.g. One of the big things I disliked about W7 is how unintuitive it was after more than a decade on NT4, W2000 and XP. It was much, much harder to get used to than Win8, simply because many of the changes were hidden from view, like the re-ordered Control Panel. Probably the best example of Windows 7's lack of discoverability is that even though I used it for more than 3 years, I never knew you could hit the WIN key and start typing to search for applications until after I had moved to Win8.
    We've had no end-user usability issues or complaints upgrading 7000 computers from XP to Windows 7 over the last year and a half. The Start menu in Windows 7 has more in common with XP than differences unlike Windows 8. We did find that Windows 7 was less "intuitive" for IT staff to find the items that we generally deal with for troubleshooting issues but had little to no impact on end users. Besides a reordered Control Panel (and how many times does an end-user actually go into Control Panel) how else did you find Windows 7 unintuitive and how did it impact your workflow?

    I'm not sure how you missed the Windows 7 search feature since it says Search programs and files in the dialog before you start typing anything. My teenage son found that all by himself and uses is all the time.

    Scott
    06-07-2015 11:51 AM
  14. mf1982's Avatar
    I've read through a bunch of the responses and it really does come down to people being very resistant to change or learning something new.

    People clamouring for an OS of 20 years ago (Win 95/XP style Start Menu) while bashing Win 8.1 is evidence of this.

    I've used most consumer versions of Windows since Windows 3.0. There are always changes along the way. Some better than others, but overall I would say I'm more productive on Win 8.1 than previous versions.

    Removing the Charms Bar is a mistake. Even though my touch screen stopped working months ago, I still find that's how I start any application that I need that's not pinned to my task bar. A quick loop with a mouse, or swipe in from the side on the touchpad on my laptop and it pops up. Click on search, type what I want and there it is.

    Under XP et al, I'd have to scroll to find what I'm looking for. I think that being forced to change through this change made in Windows 8.1 has made me much more productive. I'm not sure what other changes have been so horrible, other than the fact that it's not the same as 20 years ago. I haven't been forced to see the Metro UI if I don't want to in Win 8.1, so I'm not sure what the issue is with that either. My laptop always starts up to the desktop.

    For those worried about grandma not knowing how to use the computer anymore, there is a solution. A company out in Cupertino that hasn't changed the way they do things on one particular OS they've used for almost 10 years.

    I won't be running to Windows 10, at least not on my HTPC until WMC is reintroduced, but that's another story for another thread. Some of us still use our Xbox 360 as an extender and I use it for live OTA TV through my HD HomeRun which has a much better tuner (picks up more channels) than my TV does.
    920Walker and Kram Sacul like this.
    06-07-2015 11:55 AM
  15. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    I've read through a bunch of the responses and it really does come down to people being very resistant to change or learning something new.
    This is the main reason Windows 8 did not take of, besides a fairly substantial group of people who did not stop being very vocal about this.
    06-07-2015 12:00 PM
  16. Yazen's Avatar
    They're not blind and have amnesia, right? There's a big tile that has the Internet Explorer logo on it. That's a good starting point. (MotorMouth beat me to this, doh)

    I still can't believe the lame excuses some people put up for not taking a minute to learn stuff. Makes you wonder how people put up with the start menu when it first came out.
    I switched my father's PC from XP to Deepin. He uses Firefox and Google Earth.

    On the Deepin dock there is a big Firefox icon and a similarly sized Google Earth one. He is a smart man, however he had difficulty locating his applications.

    After that first
    06-07-2015 12:04 PM
  17. fatclue_98's Avatar
    To each his own but I personally like tablet mode on my surface pro 3 and have been generally pleased with the overall experience. The UI needs refinement (which I'm sure is underway since they're shooting for 7/29) so the last few months are probably dedicated to bringing fluidity to the UI.

    As for doing "too much" to appease the masses I'd disagree. For the most part the masses aren't power users who would've been happy with less compromise and MS is running a business after all. They're also trying to gain traction in mobile computing and recover from the poor reception of Windows 8, so I think incorporating a lot more of what the users want in the unprecedented way they have was a great idea.
    You make some very solid points. As you mentioned, MS is running a business and a large part of that business is catering to large corporations, governments, etc. There are many legacy programs in the healthcare field (a huge chunk of the pie) that even in compatibility mode won't run on 8/8.1. Because so many practitioners wear gloves, a lot of these Tablet PCs have active digitizers and are stylus-based. MS has their work cut out for them to try and please everyone. Great, an old Ricky Nelson tune just popped in my head.
    06-07-2015 12:13 PM
  18. Yazen's Avatar
    They're not blind and have amnesia, right? There's a big tile that has the Internet Explorer logo on it. That's a good starting point. (MotorMouth beat me to this, doh)

    I still can't believe the lame excuses some people put up for not taking a minute to learn stuff. Makes you wonder how people put up with the start menu when it first came out.
    I switched my father's PC from XP to Deepin. He uses Firefox and Google Earth.

    On the Deepin dock there is a big Firefox icon and a similarly sized Google Earth one. He is a smart man, however he had difficulty locating his applications.

    And yeah, he much prefers Deepin Linux over Windows 8.1.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-07-2015 12:16 PM
  19. Yugiro's Avatar
    I haven't really tried Windows 10 on a tablet but on my desktop, I am loving every bits of it. I haven't installed it on my Lenovo Thinkpad 8 because I am worried it is not yet stable. But I have tried the tablet mode on my desktop and it was fine (I mean just by the looks of it). Take for example the distance of the items on the Start Button, on the tablet mode, the distance between items increases for the benefit of touch-based screens.
    06-07-2015 12:22 PM
  20. etphoto's Avatar
    I haven't really tried Windows 10 on a tablet but on my desktop, I am loving every bits of it. I haven't installed it on my Lenovo Thinkpad 8 because I am worried it is not yet stable. But I have tried the tablet mode on my desktop and it was fine (I mean just by the looks of it). Take for example the distance of the items on the Start Button, on the tablet mode, the distance between items increases for the benefit of touch-based screens.

    Using a Surface 2 I'm in the same boat, just Windows 10 on a desktop and really like the direction MS is going. Once its released and on tablets I'll stop by my local MS Store and take a look at a tablet. These threads are fun but kind of pointless. The 8.1 fans are going to hate windows 10 (for the most part) and the rest of the world will like it.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-07-2015 12:38 PM
  21. chasvs's Avatar
    Ya, you might like it, but I think your versions suck. So be happy!
    06-07-2015 02:34 PM
  22. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Using a Surface 2 I'm in the same boat, just Windows 10 on a desktop and really like the direction MS is going. Once its released and on tablets I'll stop by my local MS Store and take a look at a tablet. These threads are fun but kind of pointless. The 8.1 fans are going to hate windows 10 (for the most part) and the rest of the world will like it.
    I think you have summed it up well.

    With that, this thread has reached its conclusion.

    Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk
    06-07-2015 02:35 PM
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