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06-29-2015 12:49 PM
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  1. captblaze's Avatar
    General Question: How does one test the whole OS on a VMware?
    you need an .iso of whatever build you want to run in a virtual machine. once you have that run VMWare and it will walk you through the setup. I would suggest a second drive to run the VM off of so that you can work on you rig while the VM is running. this way you will not be competing for hard drive resources.

    Also to the OP....

    I have been testing Windows since XP as an external tester. In the past the public didn't have access to builds (unless something was leaked). When Microsoft released a public preview it was generally stable and didn't wreck hardware.

    WIth the insider program that has all changed... Anyone with a Microsoft account can get access to a lesser stable version with Microsoft collecting massive amounts of user data (read the TOS) to chase bugs and refine the O/S and UI. After laying off their entire O/S testing division they needed something to fill the void of internal testers they no longer had.

    So to summarize... the general public never had access as they do today and it is out of necessity on Microsoft's part.

    I hope this sheds a little light on an obviously trying issue for you. BTW.... I soft bricked a 1020 on the mobile preview and thought all was lost, but recently an update to the recovery tool has unbricked the phone and is running again
    neil richards1 likes this.
    06-14-2015 09:21 AM
  2. Jazmac's Avatar
    I want to hear specifics about what reportedly failed. Model numbers, components, install history, age, specs etc. Symptoms. Attempted solutions.
    Much respect to you but I'll take it from here. I've already begun repairs. Thanks. Just for the heck of it, both devices less than 3 years old.
    06-14-2015 09:44 AM
  3. RumoredNow's Avatar
    Good on ya Jazmac for starting this thread and putting up with all the "you shoulda" and "I woulda" comments.

    It's a public service, this thread. As I just posted in another thread, "Glitch Happens" and that with even official releases.

    Part of the problem is the growing sense our society has of personal entitlement and instant gratification. People simply expect they are owed this software now, before the official release, and that everything about it should be sufficient at the very least. Your tale, and many others like it, fly in the face of that personal want and desire for "Gimme now and make it good and make me feel special for being on the inside." In other words your reality is harshing their fantasy...

    I'm not going TP on any computers in my household. I tried it on a 635 (bought specially for TP) for just a minute to scratch my itch and then I was out. No biggy.

    Sure there are a LOT of dedicated, hard core users operating within the Insider programs as they were designed. Diligently testing to destruction, reporting bugs and crashes and worse, giving feedback on UI and UX. But for every one of those, there are 5 or more dilettantes just joy riding and going, "Wheeeeeeeee, look at what I got freeeeeeeeeeee!" And when it works for them they laugh. When it doesn't work they cry harder than Oedipus upon learning the truth of his situation and lash about with double the drama.

    So thank you again for a realistic, balanced and logical presentation. And thank you for doing all you did accomplish as a dedicated Tester doing their diligence.

    41397-picard-clapping-applause-gif-vx3r.gif
    06-14-2015 10:27 AM
  4. neo158's Avatar
    General Question: How does one test the whole OS on a VMware?
    The same way you would if it was installed as the main OS on your device. The point is that a TP is just that and should only be installed on bare metal if it's a spare machine, which is why I have no sympathy for those who lose data through installing it on their main device.
    neil richards1 likes this.
    06-14-2015 10:34 AM
  5. Krystianpants's Avatar
    I lost a hard drive initially but I was fine with it because it was my choice. I bought a new one and waited for a newer build and continued. I don't mind because my testing is on a laptop which I don't really use much. I'll use it once a month if not less. I do everything either on my desktop or phone.

    But you mention you have done all their technical previews? From my understanding this is the first time Microsoft has ever done a technical preview. The older OS's had beta releases. That's not the same as what Microsoft is doing here. You are getting it as it is getting built and right before your eyes. And they have made this clear. This is why I think people getting into technical preview should have to read the terms and then take a test on it before they can join.

    This is not MIcrosoft's Fault!
    LeFreak likes this.
    06-14-2015 12:12 PM
  6. Protocol Rahul's Avatar
    I lost a hard drive initially but I was fine with it because it was my choice. I bought a new one and waited for a newer build and continued. I don't mind because my testing is on a laptop which I don't really use much. I'll use it once a month if not less. I do everything either on my desktop or phone.

    But you mention you have done all their technical previews? From my understanding this is the first time Microsoft has ever done a technical preview. The older OS's had beta releases. That's not the same as what Microsoft is doing here. You are getting it as it is getting built and right before your eyes. And they have made this clear. This is why I think people getting into technical preview should have to read the terms and then take a test on it before they can join.

    This is not MIcrosoft's Fault!
    By your understanding if the very last build that I get right before rtm, and it is still giving me problems, I should just sit on my *** waiting for someone to solve that ****, which I am not supposed to face in the first place.
    When I first bought Lumia 520 in 2013, I suffered several random reboots, crashes, duplication in song bug, and many more I don't remember now. My point, as a customer of Microsoft's OS, I didn't expect those bugs and certainly I wouldn't want bugs when I upgrade from windows 8 to 10. Therefore the purpose for each of the insider should be, to make sure the final product is bug free and has fluent experience, be it a technician, engineer, student, artist etc. And no matter how they have tested it, given caution to the obvious bugs, overall, should have a satisfactory experience.
    Also,I am grateful that Microsoft has launched such a program, but I needn't to be reminded of just for sharing my opinion.
    P.S. I tried testing on secondary devices, but never could give enough time, ran both the versions on my primary, and only recently(10122 and so forth) experienced work affecting bugs that prompted me to revert back.
    Last edited by Protocol Rahul; 06-22-2015 at 05:28 AM.
    06-14-2015 12:43 PM
  7. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Good on ya Jazmac for starting this thread and putting up with all the "you shoulda" and "I woulda" comments.
    No joke! Jaz, you're a better man than I am. As a mod I have to mind my Ps & Qs and set the example. But I'd be on permaban by now. I'll defer to someone with the proper credentials to set me straight but if a corrupted file can totally brick a phone requiring JTag or similar, then I'm guessing the same can happen to a PC or any of its components.

    Can someone with an alphabet soup behind their name chime in?
    RumoredNow, tgp, Guytronic and 4 others like this.
    06-14-2015 01:21 PM
  8. Iain_S's Avatar
    You won't be the first to spew rhetoric believing your opinion to you trumps the facts.
    I have been running the TP for both desktop and mobile since the beginning across multiple devices, desktops, laptops, tablets and multiple phones, never had any such issues with it damaging hardware, that is not spewing rhetoric, those are cold hard facts.
    LeFreak and neil richards1 like this.
    06-14-2015 01:24 PM
  9. startrunner's Avatar
    You had been warned. It has been a well-known fact that the Windows 10 tech preview is unlike any before, with faster updates (and more bugs), from the very beginning.
    Last edited by startrunner; 06-14-2015 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Hail king Stannis
    neo158, LeFreak and neil richards1 like this.
    06-14-2015 02:30 PM
  10. Norris Rochelle's Avatar
    Why do people complain about this? Using a product with software that's not fully developed is bound to come across problems and bugs.
    neil richards1 likes this.
    06-14-2015 02:49 PM
  11. Jazmac's Avatar
    Why do people complain about this? Using a product with software that's not fully developed is bound to come across problems and bugs.
    Not sure the answer to why people complain about anything but they do. What is truly weird to me are those that complain that people complain. I'm still researching that one.
    06-14-2015 03:32 PM
  12. Yazen's Avatar
    Attachment 106347The Technical Preview is not like anything I have ever encountered by Microsoft and I have had them all. But I am sooo finished with this Technical Preview program. With as much experience I have, it is simply not enough for whatever this TP trajectory is supposed to be. So far I've lost a laptop that I now have to return have repaired and the latest is my Windows tablet that has lost touch. I can't swipe to get to the password page now, And when it did work once, WiFi was gone. Now it just gets hot and I have to force it to shut down to prevent it from burning out.
    I won't even get into about my Lumia woes because I expected it to get busted from this preview and its not my daily driver. But it is part of my technical preview misery index. What's worse, NOBODY has a clue as to how to resolve these issues. So, I'm finished and I'm out. No more updates. The last one I did today on 10130 somehow made Cortana think I'm too young to use it. So no more. No more of these incremental lets see what happens if we give them this type downloads. I'll stick with 8.1, which I'm used to anyway until this program is finally over.
    Technical preview is for technical people XD
    Jokes aside, I hope you can get your devices serviced, and I hope Microsoft will continue to refine their previewer platform.

    Microsoft has been pretty good about releasing software that does not permanently brick devices.
    Most importantly, all lumias have a jtag interface. That seemingly "impossible" QHSUSB_DLOAD issue could be resolved with jtag!
    06-14-2015 05:17 PM
  13. mrpuny's Avatar
    I'm deeply confused. For anyone claiming that their PC hardware has been damaged by the Win10 TP, exactly what mechanism are you proposing caused the damage beyond correlation equals causation? (I can see phones being a different situation where the lines between OS and firmware are more blurred, and recovery options are more limited.)

    Here's a true story: I used to have a Mustang GT. It was great vehicle and ran without any major problems for over a decade. After getting married and having our first child, we got a Subaru as our family car and my wife's daily driver. After our second child, we got a minivan that became my wife's primary vehicle. As much as I liked my Mustang, the Subaru was newer and I decided to sell the Mustang and keep the Subaru as my daily driver. But before I could do that, the Mustang's air pump seized, destroying the accessory belt. I'm pretty handy with cars, so I got a rebuilt air pump from the local parts store and installed it along with a new belt. Got it running, and was trying to sell it again when the rebuilt air pump seized up again after no more than a half hour of running time. Was completely disgusted and sold it off as-is with a bad air pump.

    So purely on a correlation equals causation basis, buying a minivan clearly caused my Mustang's air pump to fail (repeatedly), though for the life of me, I still can't come up with a physics based explanation
    LeFreak and neil richards1 like this.
    06-14-2015 06:31 PM
  14. RumoredNow's Avatar
    Wait... You applied the minivan directly on the Mustang somehow.
    06-14-2015 06:52 PM
  15. Krystianpants's Avatar
    I have been running the TP for both desktop and mobile since the beginning across multiple devices, desktops, laptops, tablets and multiple phones, never had any such issues with it damaging hardware, that is not spewing rhetoric, those are cold hard facts.
    Yes, but there are people who do. My hard drive died due to something microsoft was doing which certain hard drives ended up in a state where they can't be detected. I couldn't rescue mine using many different methods including linux. I don't mind though because I went into it knowing something could happen. This definitely doesn't affect the majority. But the insiders are sort of lab rats to test code out and help microsoft build an even better experience for the rest of the world. It will be more functional and less probablematic by the time it's released to the world and that's important when you're giving a free operating system away.
    06-14-2015 06:52 PM
  16. mrpuny's Avatar
    Wait... You applied the minivan directly on the Mustang somehow.
    No, but Windows 10 TP doesn't replace the firmware of any of the hardware either. In other words it isn't "applied" to the hardware in any meaningful manner. Or, tell you what, I'm making an assumption with that. Maybe it is. Explain how.
    neil richards1 likes this.
    06-14-2015 07:00 PM
  17. RumoredNow's Avatar
    No, but Windows 10 TP doesn't replace the firmware of any of the hardware either. In other words it isn't "applied" to the hardware in any meaningful manner. Or, tell you what, I'm making an assumption with that. Maybe it is. Explain how.
    Hey... It's your analogy. I'm just pointing out a difference. I assume that at no time were your Mustang and Minivan merged in some fashion.

    Go ahead and explain to me how the analogy is apt.
    920Walker likes this.
    06-14-2015 07:06 PM
  18. mrpuny's Avatar
    Yes, but there are people who do. My hard drive died due to something microsoft was doing which certain hard drives ended up in a state where they can't be detected. I couldn't rescue mine using many different methods including linux. I don't mind though because I went into it knowing something could happen. This definitely doesn't affect the majority. But the insiders are sort of lab rats to test code out and help microsoft build an even better experience for the rest of the world. It will be more functional and less probablematic by the time it's released to the world and that's important when you're giving a free operating system away.
    Can you further describe this or give a link that explains this in more detail? What did Microsoft do to hard drives that rendered them undiscoverable not only in Windows but in other operating systems? Either there's a serious problem in Windows or a serious problem in the hardware standards if that can happen. (Again, unless firmware is getting updated and a problem comes up then.)
    LeFreak likes this.
    06-14-2015 07:07 PM
  19. mrpuny's Avatar
    Hey... It's your analogy. I'm just pointing out a difference. I assume that at no time were your Mustang and Minivan merged in some fashion.

    Go ahead and explain to me how the analogy is apt.
    Because someone says "I did 'A' and 'B' happened." Unless that person can come up with a link between 'A' and 'B' then it's just conjecture.
    LeFreak and neil richards1 like this.
    06-14-2015 07:09 PM
  20. RumoredNow's Avatar
    No I understand what you were trying to point out.

    How exactly is owning two separate vehicles the same as installing software on a computer?

    Now if you would have blamed some gasoline that you put in the Mustang that would make more sense.

    The OP is not stating his laptop died because he put Win 10 on his desktop, is he?
    920Walker likes this.
    06-14-2015 07:12 PM
  21. mrpuny's Avatar
    No I understand what you were trying to point out.

    How exactly is owning two separate vehicles the same as installing software on a computer.

    Now if you would have blamed some gasoline that you put in the Mustang that would make more sense.

    The OP is not stating his laptop died because he put Win 10 on his desktop, is he?
    OK, how about this - I went from driving my Mtustang every day to once per week. That caused the air pump to fail almost immediately. Feel better?
    LeFreak likes this.
    06-14-2015 07:18 PM
  22. King Nickles Saintil's Avatar
    OK, how about this - I went from driving my Mtustang every day to once per week. That caused the air pump to fail almost immediately. Feel better?
    You're still not making sense...sorry.
    There's clearly a link to all of the malfunctioning devices out there, both phones and laptops and surface pros, surfaces on the whole and tablets being rendered unusable right after the installation of the preview.

    Anyone else asking how the preview is linked to these failures need a reality check and read the forums about the numerous bricked phones and how Microsoft has addressed them. Along with driver bugs causing some systems to be inoperable due to video cards issues (nvidia) but thankfully that is supposedly solved now.

    It is a preview, yes, but I've not heard of any other preview causing this much damage over the years nor on other competitor platforms. Who knows ? Maybe I'm wrong but...
    Jazmac, RumoredNow and 920Walker like this.
    06-14-2015 07:38 PM
  23. mrpuny's Avatar
    You're still not making sense...sorry.
    There's clearly a link to all of the malfunctioning devices out there, both phones and laptops and surface pros, surfaces on the whole and tablets being rendered unusable right after the installation of the preview.

    Anyone else asking how the preview is linked to these failures need a reality check and read the forums about the numerous bricked phones and how Microsoft has addressed them. Along with driver bugs causing some systems to be inoperable due to video cards issues (nvidia) but thankfully that is supposedly solved now.

    It is a preview, yes, but I've not heard of any other preview causing this much damage over the years nor on other competitor platforms. Who knows ? Maybe I'm wrong but...
    Uhh, yeah, so? I've already talked about phones being a different issue from PCs. And "bad drivers" on PCs isn't the same as damaged hardware. You can screw up graphics drivers in Win10 and still be able to roll back or switch to another OS.

    "Upgrading" a WIndows 7-8.X PC to the Win10 TP preview may cause all sorts of issues. That's the nature of alpha level experimental OS builds, and I have no issue with reminding people of the risks. But there's a huge difference between that and claiming that Win10 TP cause permanent hardware damage in PCs. In this thread there are claims of hardware damage to PCs including fans and hard drives. If people are going to make those sorts of claims, I'd like to see an attempt at some sort of explanation backing that up besides correlation = causation.
    06-14-2015 08:06 PM
  24. King Nickles Saintil's Avatar
    Uhh, yeah, so? I've already talked about phones being a different issue from PCs. And "bad drivers" on PCs isn't the same as damaged hardware. You can screw up graphics drivers in Win10 and still be able to roll back or switch to another OS.

    "Upgrading" a WIndows 7-8.X PC to the Win10 TP preview may cause all sorts of issues. That's the nature of alpha level experimental OS builds, and I have no issue with reminding people of the risks. But there's a huge difference between that and claiming that Win10 TP cause permanent hardware damage in PCs. In this thread there are claims of hardware damage to PCs including fans and hard drives. If people are going to make those sorts of claims, I'd like to see an attempt at some sort of explanation backing that up besides correlation = causation.
    You seem like one of the persons who think too hard about accepting reality. I guess unless it personally has happened to you that you would never believe it. In most cases that's the kind of logic to live by but not in all.
    Jazmac likes this.
    06-14-2015 08:18 PM
  25. mrpuny's Avatar
    You seem like one of the persons who think too hard about accepting reality. I guess unless it personally has happened to you that you would never believe it. In most cases that's the kind of logic to live by but not in all.
    Quite the opposite. I'm an engineer by day. (Mechanical, not software.) I've had to debug various claims from internal (other engineering groups at the same company) and external customers. While usually when things inexplicably go wrong it can be traced to things like installation errors, and to a lesser extent bad luck and random chance, I've often enough come across an unaccounted for interaction between components that I don't immediately discount such claims. But I do ask for more evidence, especially when we're talking about something that should be happening across large populations. (How many preview members are there exactly vs how many complaints? Are there consistent complaints for a particular product [e.g. Surface Pro, Dell XPS13]? If so, is there a plausible explanation for the problem like some sort of firmware update that isn't going out to other devices?)

    "Correlation != causation" and "Correlation = causation!" involves the exact same characters, just reordered slightly. But that subtle difference is huge. It's the difference between sending people to the moon and sacrificing virgins in the volcano.
    LeFreak and TheDvlsAdvc8 like this.
    06-14-2015 08:45 PM
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