1. Zapella Tiago's Avatar
    Here's a little more clarification from Microsoft. More and more of the free upgrade pieces are falling into place.

    Clean install activation:

    Once your device upgrades to Windows 10 using the free upgrade offer it will activate online automatically. This information will be stored as a record so when you perform subsequent installations, the activation code will be automatically applied, as long as its the same computer and the exact same Windows 10 edition. As long as you take advantage of the free upgrade offer time period (1 year from July 29), you will be able to clean install the same edition of Windows 10 that you upgraded to on the same device during and after the free upgrade offer. A new license will not be required for purchase since activation is automatic.

    Clean install options

    Installation media will be made available for you to download (ISO) so that you can create installation media on a USB drive or DVD. Product key information will not be required and Windows 10 will activate online automatically. The online activation will happen automatically after a clean install of Windows 10 if the device has already been upgraded and activated online the same Edition of Windows 10.

    Clean installs for hardware changes

    If something major happens to the device that requires something as monumental such as a motherboard change (basically turning it into a new computer), Windows 10 will require re-activation which will require you to purchase a license. This is what Microsoft means when it says "life of the device." Additionally, you can't transfer a license to a new device. But, if something disastrous does happen, it's usually more cost-effective to just buy a replacement device anyway and that should come pre-loaded with Windows 10. However, if you happen to buy a new device with an older OS installed, you can get the free Windows 10 upgrade as long as it falls in the free upgrade offer period.

    Source: http://winsupersite.com/windows-10/h...lean-installs/
    06-19-2015 01:01 PM
  2. acerace113's Avatar
    So if I read this right, you have to do the upgrade first before you can do a clean install. Right?


    Sent from my 5th gen iPod touch (beta testing) using Tapatalk
    06-21-2015 07:18 AM
  3. mjyumping's Avatar
    Thank you for this one!!!! Gabe Aul was not replying to me on twitter, now my question is answered!
    06-21-2015 07:44 AM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    With this procedure MS is giving me a free upgrade to Windows 10, but downgrading my current retail license to an OEM license. This is terrible for everyone that changes hardware often. Everyone that bought a retail license did so for exactly that reason, so they aren't required to hassle with MS' re-activation policies whenever they change hardware.

    In a world where W10 is pretty much the last version of Windows, meaning everyone's installation is just continuously updated from here on out (without getting new version numbers), I can see how it might be fair to get rid of retail licenses entirely. Not doing so would mean people could transfer their Windows license onto their newest rig for the next forty years, always get updated to the most recent OS version, and never have to pay for a newer Windows version ever again. That wouldn't be fair either, but if that's how this will work, MS needs to get the word out ASAP!

    The people that currently go out and purchase retail licenses are a minority, but a very vocal minority, and they will feel like this update policy is comparable to MS giving them a free roast beef and crap sandwich. Without the necessary information to go along with it, I can already see this well intended gesture backfiring on MS. *sigh*

    On the other hand, if I'm wrong about this, and we'll be seeing Windows 11 in two years, them MS really needs to change the policy.
    DavidinCT and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-21-2015 09:30 AM
  5. DavidinCT's Avatar
    With this procedure MS is giving me a free upgrade to Windows 10, but downgrading my current retail license to an OEM license. This is terrible for everyone that changes hardware often. Everyone that bought a retail license did so for exactly that reason, so they aren't required to hassle with MS' re-activation policies whenever they change hardware.
    This is a big deal for me, I upgrade my computers all the time, my gaming machine will see motherboard upgrades sometimes 2 times a year (normally every other year) but, if I have to buy a new version of Windows 10 EVERY TIME I upgrade hardware in my computer, this will be a major deal breaker for me. This is a MAJOR deal. Even time to time, I move a windows license from my Gaming machine to my HTPC, or the laptop in the house. This is normally not a big deal as long as I remove it from the old machine.

    Windows has always been key based and activation. Normally with a upgrade, enter the key, if activation fails for a reason, I call up the Activation line and as long as I am not trying to install Windows on more than one computer (guidelines for the license), after 60 or so numbers, it's activated.

    All it takes is 1 time when I have a VALID license and they will no longer activate it, then I will need to find a activator or something. I paid for software on my computer, something fails, most things are still in the computer, I should still have the right to use the software I paid for.

    Is this the way on the free version of Windows ? If I buy a retail upgrade for Windows, will it work different ? It might be worth it if this is the case.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-24-2015 10:17 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    Is this the way on the free version of Windows ? If I buy a retail upgrade for Windows, will it work different ? It might be worth it if this is the case.
    TBH I don't know. I don't even know if MS retail licenses, as we currently know them, will even continue to exist. We probably won't be sure until we can get our eyes on the legal mumbo jumbo.

    On a side note: the whole idea of "reserving" a W10 license is utter BS, but somehow nobody in the tech press seems to care (as if the number of digital copies of W10 were somehow limited). I suspect the act of "reserving" somehow ties a generated serial number and a hash over each of your rig's hardware components to your MS account. IOW, "reserving" your W10 copy is basically the act of telling MS "this is the hardware configuration for my W10 OEM license". I won't be surprised if serial numbers disappear as a result, as you'll be managing licenses in the cloud.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-24-2015 10:38 AM
  7. DavidinCT's Avatar
    TBH I don't know. I don't even know if MS retail licenses, as we currently know them, will even continue to exist. We probably won't be sure until we can get our eyes on the legal mumbo jumbo.

    On a side note: the whole idea of "reserving" a W10 license is utter BS, but somehow nobody in the tech press seems to care (as if the number of digital copies of W10 were somehow limited). I suspect the act of "reserving" somehow ties a generated serial number and a hash over each of your rig's hardware components to your MS account. IOW, "reserving" your W10 copy is basically the act of telling MS "this is the hardware configuration for my W10 OEM license". I won't be surprised if serial numbers disappear as a result, as you'll be managing licenses in the cloud.
    Retail copies will still be available. People still build computers and with out a internet connection just a clean build, they need media to install from. I would bet money you could walk into wally world and buy a copy of Windows 10 when it hits, if you wanted to. There will ALWAYS be people who want to have physical media on hand for their machines.

    This would be the big question if retail copies will be different than the "free" version, showing the limits. One machine, one upgrade for that computer. It might actually be worth it buying it on at least one machine if this was the case. The ONLY reason why I need to go to Windows 10 is because of DirectX 12 and gaming. Otherwise I use Windows Media Center a lot and 95% of my computers will not get Windows 10 because of this. I plan on Dual booting when RTM hits with 10 and 7...

    The reserving is only Microsoft's way to see the demand of it to get real numbers on how many people plan to upgrade. I wonder how they will handle my case, as I have a few VMs I set it up for, No Microsoft account tied to it and did not ask for a email notification. Although it will show a possible upgrade, it will not be tied to my account.
    06-24-2015 10:48 AM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    Retail copies will still be available. People still build computers and with out a internet connection just a clean build, they need media to install from. I would bet money you could walk into wally world and buy a copy of Windows 10 when it hits, if you wanted to. There will ALWAYS be people who want to have physical media on hand for their machines.
    I read somewhere that MS is thinking about selling W10 through retail channels on USB sticks, rather than on optical media. That obviously means the retail distribution channels aren't going away.

    I just wasn't using the term "retail" in that sense. A "retail license" is the term MS uses to refer to a Windows license that is associated with a person, and may legally be transferred from one machine to another. The other consumer oriented license is the "OEM license", which is cheaper but is tied to a specific machine. I can walk into my local computer shop and purchase an OEM license. I can also buy a retail license online from MS. The way I'm using those terms doesn't say anything about how and where the licenses are purchased.

    In that sense, I think it's possible that retail licenses may be going away. At least so far, everything I've read about W10 licenses implies that they will be tied to your machine, just like OEM licenses are, in particular the free W10 upgrade, irrespective of whether your current license is of the retail or OEM variety.

    The reserving is only Microsoft's way to see the demand of it to get real numbers on how many people plan to upgrade. I wonder how they will handle my case, as I have a few VMs I set it up for, No Microsoft account tied to it and did not ask for a email notification. Although it will show a possible upgrade, it will not be tied to my account.
    Paul Thurrott recently speculated that W10 will require you to associate your Windows license with your MS account, and after a grace period has expired, not doing so would basically be the equivalent of an inactivated Windows installation.

    The reserving is only Microsoft's way to see the demand of it to get real numbers on how many people plan to upgrade.
    Maybe. It's hard to imagine that would get them even a half decent prediction. They don't even have historical data to go on which is usually necessary for such purposes.
    DavidinCT and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-24-2015 12:15 PM
  9. David Feifer's Avatar
    hmm,.. I heard from other sources that the gwx app "reservation" will actually download the bits before the 29th. Much Like preordering a game now days. And that the major reason for it was to relieve possible stress on their download servers come launch day. This explanation makes a lot of sense to me.
    a5cent likes this.
    06-24-2015 03:40 PM
  10. DavidinCT's Avatar
    I read somewhere that MS is thinking about selling W10 through retail channels on USB sticks, rather than on optical media. That obviously means the retail distribution channels aren't going away.

    I just wasn't using the term "retail" in that sense. A "retail license" is the term MS uses to refer to a Windows license that is associated with a person, and may legally be transferred from one machine to another. The other consumer oriented license is the "OEM license", which is cheaper but is tied to a specific machine. I can walk into my local computer shop and purchase an OEM license. I can also buy a retail license online from MS. The way I'm using those terms doesn't say anything about how and where the licenses are purchased.

    In that sense, I think it's possible that retail licenses may be going away. At least so far, everything I've read about W10 licenses implies that they will be tied to your machine, just like OEM licenses are, in particular the free W10 upgrade, irrespective of whether your current license is of the retail or OEM variety..
    True, a USB stick would be better for most people, if they put them on USB 3.0 sticks and it's installed a modern PC (in the last year) the whole install would take 1/3 of the time of installing off a DVD.

    I do hope they offer a "retail" license where that is an option. If can upgrade my motherboard and swap the license between machines that I OWN, then it might be worth the $100 or so for the Pro UPGRADE just to have that flexibility. Microsoft claims this is the LAST version of Windows, even if that is true for the next 5-10 years (look how long XP or even 7 has been around, still in use), it would be worth it. I would put money on the fact that MOST if not all of my machines will be upgraded or replaced in the next 5-7 years (My gaming machine within 1-2 years).

    How will small business handle this ? (talking 5-10 PCs and normally buy off the shelf), No way would they want their employees buying apps from the store on a company account. Windows needs to have options for cases like this.

    Paul Thurrott recently speculated that W10 will require you to associate your Windows license with your MS account, and after a grace period has expired, not doing so would basically be the equivalent of an inactivated Windows installation..
    The key word is "speculated". Totally unknown at this point. As I set 5 VMs to take the Windows 10 upgrade (all ready with the update and upgrade selected with out registering an account on ANY OF THEM), Windows 7 does not ask for a live account(can you even set it in Windows 7 ?) nor are you required to enter a live account when installing the Preview of Windows 10 (at least on the newest build of 10147). Same with Windows 8, you don't need a live account to use it, and I am assuming that on Windows 10 it will be the same, Not everyone wants to use Windows that way. The live account is only needed to buy stuff from the store (in a basic layout, more features but, the basic use most people will have with it)

    Maybe. It's hard to imagine that would get them even a half decent prediction. They don't even have historical data to go on which is usually necessary for such purposes.
    I remember reading that someplace, this would not be 100% accurate by any means but, it would give them a good idea on how to handle July 29th. Why else would they be doing it at this point ? They are not asking for account info, they are just asking for you to select yes. They could also just add a link on Microsoft.com on July 29th if they wanted to just for people to download it.

    With this change I might kill my VM's to take the update besides one (for the machine I am on).... Anyway about it, I don't like how this is going. Although Windows 10 is over all pretty nice for the changes (I still dislike Windows 8.1), a lot of the policies on it and the lack of Windows Media Center is really killing it for me.
    Laura Knotek and a5cent like this.
    06-24-2015 04:43 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    With this change I might kill my VM's to take the update besides one (for the machine I am on).
    That's what I'd do, at least until MS' upgrade policy is made absolutely clear.

    Same with Windows 8, you don't need a live account to use it, and I am assuming that on Windows 10 it will be the same, Not everyone wants to use Windows that way.
    I realize that none of the existing Windows SKUs require a Microsoft account. Consider however that you do need one for Windows Phone. I think W10 will require one too. I suspect you'd be able to disassociate your Windows installation from your Microsoft account, so you won't be forced to login on a daily basis, but at least for the activation process, I suspect you'll be asked to sign in or register. You're absolutely right that this is all speculation, on Paul's and on my part, but it's at least educated speculation.

    I do hope they offer a "retail" license where that is an option.
    Don't get me wrong. I hope so too. I'm just increasingly doubtful. All these things I've mentioned tie in perfectly with Window's transition to an SaaS licensing model, and the fact that W10 is rumoured to be the last version of Windows. How would you explain MS holding on to their current "retail licensing" practice, when that would allow those license owners to never pay for a Windows upgrade again, or at least not until W11 is released, which could be more than a decade away? If it's not the version number that motivates people to occasionally purchase a new license from MS (which is necessary to fund the continued development of Windows), it must be something else. What? I think it will be hardware upgrades. IMHO that's why all of MS' recent deliberations on this issue always mention "lifetime of the machine", just like their OEM licenses do.

    The live account is only needed to buy stuff from the store (in a basic layout, more features but, the basic use most people will have with it)
    Yup. You're describing how this works today. I'm trying to put the pieces together to predict where it's headed. Way more fun...

    How will small business handle this ? (talking 5-10 PCs and normally buy off the shelf), No way would they want their employees buying apps from the store on a company account. Windows needs to have options for cases like this.
    Everything I've said so far applies specifically and only to consumer licenses. Enterprise licensing is nothing like this at all. Small businesses will likely be somewhere in between. WP has already been successfully integrated into corporate environments despite requiring an MS account. With W10 unifying the app stores and the OS, I think we'll see similar solutions emerge.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-24-2015 06:14 PM
  12. DavidinCT's Avatar
    I realize that none of the existing Windows SKUs require a Microsoft account. Consider however that you do need one for Windows Phone. I think W10 will require one too. I suspect you'd be able to disassociate your Windows installation from your Microsoft account, so you won't be forced to login on a daily basis, but at least for the activation process, I suspect you'll be asked to sign in or register. You're absolutely right that this is all speculation, on Paul's and on my part, but it's at least educated speculation. .
    Correct me if I am wrong but, last time I rebuilt my Windows Phone with 8.1 (ICON), there was a option to "Skip" a Microsoft account on setup ? I believe it's always been that way. Although if you could on Windows Phone with out an MS account, it would make a great phone to get texts and browse the web but, the limits would show up very quickly due to no apps (it's the same with Android and iOS, no account, no apps).

    Now Windows falls under a different guideline, you can run Windows with NO Microsoft account still have access to thousands if not millions of programs/apps(think Windows 7, XP, vista, etc). You can even buy office or most of Microsoft's bigger apps off the shelf if you wanted. You cant buy them from the store but, think about all those 3rd parties like Amazon, Steam, etc who offer programs and games for windows with direct downloads, never mind what can be gotten with a retail box.

    A phone and a computer are totally different in this aspect.

    Don't get me wrong. I hope so too. I'm just increasingly doubtful. All these things I've mentioned tie in perfectly with Window's transition to an SaaS licensing model, and the fact that W10 is rumoured to be the last version of Windows. How would you explain MS holding on to their current "retail licensing" practice, when that would allow those license owners to never pay for a Windows upgrade again, or at least not until W11 is released, which could be more than a decade away? If it's not the version number that motivates people to occasionally purchase a new license from MS (which is necessary to fund the continued development of Windows), it must be something else. What? I think it will be hardware upgrades. IMHO that's why all of MS' recent deliberations on this issue always mention "lifetime of the machine", just like their OEM licenses do..
    There is a major difference of how people use and license their computers and that is different for each person. Some people buy a off the shelf computer(OEM), when it dies or is too slow, they buy another computer and live with what is on it. The other side is people who like to build their own computers or keep upgrading their own computers. If the Windows 10 license ends up on the retail end where 1 computer forever and you cant move or upgrade your computers, this could cause fragmentation once people learn about this.

    Microsoft used to allow fairly flexible licensing on retail copies of Windows, if this completely ends in Windows 10, I think a lot of gamers or modders will be sticking with 7 or 8.1. More and more I learn about this, it's seaming like it will an issue for me at some point, maybe try when retail comes but, after the next upgrade and I cant activate it, I wont rebuy it after buying a copy.

    Yup. You're describing how this works today. I'm trying to put the pieces together to predict where it's headed. Way more fun...
    ....
    Everything I've said so far applies specifically and only to consumer licenses. Enterprise licensing is nothing like this at all. Small businesses will likely be somewhere in between. WP has already been successfully integrated into corporate environments despite requiring an MS account. With W10 unifying the app stores and the OS, I think we'll see similar solutions emerge.
    I year ya, trying to piece it together with a lot of rumor and mixed information is hard. I feel like it's changing almost every day (look at the hassle with Preview users with a free copy of 10). There is a LOT of questions here that still have not been answered and day to day more and more questions come up on this subject.

    Even on these upgrades we are talking about in the licenses it's only about the free upgrade. So we have NO CLUE on what the final will be on Retail copies (assuming buying a retail box or off a 3rd party website). I know the Enterprise/corporate versions are a different animal, totally different...

    Still waiting to read the final and I honestly think we wont fully know anything till July 29th... at least you can roll back if you wanted to :(

    Edit:

    Found this, interesting if this is true...

    http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...f-7e37c5bca6f0

    What happens if I change my motherboard?

    As it pertains to the OEM licenses this will invalidate the Windows 10 upgrade license because it will no longer have a previous base qualifying license which is required for the free upgrade. You will then have to purchase a full retail Windows 10 license. If the base qualifying license (Windows 7 or Windows 8.1) was a full retail version, then yes, you can transfer it.



    From the end user license agreement:

    15. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.



    17. TRANSFER TO ANOTHER COMPUTER. a. Software Other than Windows Anytime Upgrade. You may transfer the software and install it on another computer for your use. That computer becomes the licensed computer. You may not do so to share this license between computers. .
    How true this is, who knows but, it looks like if your license from 7 or 8.1 is a retail license and you upgrade to Windows 10, it will carry over what the license is.

    If this is true, my VM's are ok to go...
    Last edited by DavidinCT; 06-24-2015 at 07:29 PM.
    a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-24-2015 07:13 PM
  13. coolqf's Avatar
    The source isn't directly from MS.... MS states that the upgrade will retain the rights of the previous installation. If your Win8.1 was a retail edition, then your Win10 will be upgraded to Win10 retail as well. The OEM is only if you're upgrading from an OEM.
    06-24-2015 07:49 PM
  14. DavidinCT's Avatar
    The source isn't directly from MS.... MS states that the upgrade will retain the rights of the previous installation. If your Win8.1 was a retail edition, then your Win10 will be upgraded to Win10 retail as well. The OEM is only if you're upgrading from an OEM.
    Right, if you have OEM, your stuck with that license on THAT machine. As the OP posted, it seems different than what we are saying, maybe that applies only to the Preview to RTM upgrade and that would be treated as a OEM version.

    The big question was, IF I have a retail license and upgrade to Windows 10 and I change my motherboard (complete system upgrade) can I still use my license on this machine or do I need to buy a new license.

    According to what the OP posted was NO, I would have to buy a Windows 10 again but, according to the Microsoft MVP, I would not...

    See a lot of rumor...
    a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-24-2015 08:11 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    I hear ya, trying to piece it together with a lot of rumor and mixed information is hard. I feel like it's changing almost every day (look at the hassle with Preview users with a free copy of 10).
    Yep.

    Anyway, thank you for that last link. That certainly contradicts the notion that retail licenses are going away. If true, then it would seem MS is knowingly sacrificing almost all income they previously generated from retail licensing, and anyone purchasing an OEM license would be a fool. It would be far better to just purchase a retail license and enjoy free updates for the rest of your life (or until W11 is released), for free, from then on forward... that just sounds unlikely to me...

    I guess there's not much to do except wait and see...
    Laura Knotek and DavidinCT like this.
    06-24-2015 08:20 PM
  16. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Yep.

    If true, then it would seem MS is knowingly sacrificing almost all income they previously generated from retail licensing, and anyone purchasing an OEM license would be a fool. It would be far better to just purchase a retail license and enjoy free updates for the rest of your life (or until W11 is released), for free, from then on forward... that just sounds unlikely to me...

    I guess there's not much to do except wait and see...


    True but, remember OEM licenses are dirt cheap in a lot of cases. Retail is $200 and OEM is like $90. So, if you buy a OEM version, you just should know what your getting into. If your building a new machine that you will hold on to for the next 5-7 years, then it might not be a big deal but, if you plan on moving it, then retail should be the only way.

    As long as this is all true..



    In your condition, I think, the best way is to backup the system into an external hard drive. After you changed the motherboard, just do a "restore to the dissimilar hardware". In this way, the old system can work with the new motherboard without purchasing for another license.
    Some backup tools have this feature, such as easeus todo backup, acronis true image, aomei backup, and storage craft. easeus todo is my favorite.
    I have done that before, using Acronis.... I did that before I just did a MAJOR upgrade about 2-3 weeks ago (motherboard, CPU, RAM, power supply, Video card) in one shot. When I restored it to different hardware using universal restore, it still kicked off activation. Although my license is a retail license, just clicking activate, activated the system fine with out having to call.

    The big one on this thread is, if this happens in Windows 10, will it work the same, From the MVP yes, From the OPs post, no...

    That is the big question here and I don't think we will know till RTM hits 100%...
    a5cent likes this.
    06-25-2015 11:08 AM

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