07-10-2015 01:45 PM
41 12
tools
  1. tgp's Avatar
    Let's reverse engineer the OP's statement: Windows 10 pointless without Windows 10 Mobile. Let's say that the WP line dies. And I don't mean getting technical and saying that it will be dead soon because it is now W10 Mobile! I mean dies as in Microsoft no longer has an operating system for phones. I think most of us would agree that this is a very real possibility, whether or not we would admit it.

    Should this happen, would you then say that Windows as we know it is over? I didn't think you would! Windows on the desktop would be alive and well for years to come. I do agree that mobile is of utmost importance to Microsoft, but that does not necessarily mean having their own mobile OS. Microsoft is already on iOS and Android, and their products are second to none. I believe that's what Nadella means when the says "Mobile first..."
    07-09-2015 01:28 PM
  2. luxnws's Avatar
    It'll be interesting to see which markets Microsoft withdraws Windows phone from. Right now, Lumia phones represent more than 9 of 10 Windows phones. Now Microsoft doesn't think mobile hardware is worth the dollars and risk, or as much dollars and risk. Do you seriously believe that third party manufacturers will take on the risk and fill the void left by Microsoft?

    Continuum looks good but will it be enough to sell Windows phones to the enterprise? It appears the only hope for Window phone going forward is that Windows 10 universal apps becomes a success and drives Windows devices sales.

    I know for me an 'uh huh' moment was during E3 when Bethsoft announced the release of the companion mobile app for the upcoming Fallout 4 game. The game is being released on Xbox One and Windows PC. Two Microsoft platforms, right? Yet the companion app for the game is being released on iOS and Android. Think about that. That's illustrates what the outside world thinks about Windows phone (maybe Microsoft can get Bethsoft to release a Windows phone version wink wink).
    07-09-2015 01:41 PM
  3. Jakoh's Avatar
    I think microsoft wants W10M, but just doesnt want to make the phones.
    07-09-2015 01:58 PM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    Ha, well, "the world behaves illogically and doesn't make sense" is as effective of counterargument as any I've seen!
    So I got exactly the answer you predicted I would... serves me right... lol

    Basically, you say "because this and this and this, here is the result." And, what you say is very logical, which is why I say I agree with you in theory. But it doesn't work that way (often).
    It always works that way. I'll skip the details, but just say that IMHO your approach is no different from mine at all. You also have logical reasons for thinking that universal apps aren't going anywhere. You too have a mental model where you say this and this will lead to that outcome... specifically, you're saying that iOS' and Android's market positions are so overpowering, that nothing MS does has any chance of being relevant. That seems like a logical argument to me, but we're just not working off the same mental models. IMHO that's the only difference.

    If the (tech) world made sense, all the predictions of WP taking the world by storm would be true. They aren't. Explain that!
    Completely disagree. I think it's completely sensible and logical that WP has gone nowhere so far. I've been saying over and over again, for years, what MS would have to do (I think you're aware of my opinions on that so I won't reiterate), they never have, and here we are...

    There's your explanation

    But it doesn't work that way (often). Microsoft's universal apps and so-called single OS (which it really isn't) make perfect sense. Who wouldn't jump on that?
    I definitely wouldn't jump on that! At this point it's just far too uncertain where MS is headed with their mobile efforts, and whether or not those platforms will even be around 10, 5 or two years from now. That uncertainty stems mostly from Microsoft's track record of frequently dropping support for technologies and products on a whim, for which their mobile efforts having a low market share and bleeding money may provide further "encouragement". If it were just about market share, then CTO's couldn't care less. However, until MS provides guarantees that they will be making significant investments in mobile for years to come, CTO's are absolutely justified in avoiding the platform.

    Until now, all I've said is that universal apps respresent , for the first time since WP's inception, a compelling feature that is unique to WP (for corporations, but irrelevant for consumers). I've not yet made any predictions about what impact universal apps will have in the enterprise space.

    My point is only that universal apps give MS, for the first time, a real shot at convincing CTO's that MS actually has something worthwhile to offer corporations, other than just devices that are cheaper than iPhones and easier to support than Android. That's why, for the first time, the choice of mobile OS in the enterprise space may not be quite that irrelevant. That's the only point we really disagree on and that's all I'm saying.

    Whether MS can turn that into a success I do not know. I don't know enough to have an opinion on that yet. Without the guarantees I mentioned, which I don't know MS is giving, there will be no such success.
    Muessig and tgp like this.
    07-09-2015 02:22 PM
  5. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    Right, to be perfectly honest I stopped reading this thread about 3/4's through the first page because I got bored and I wanted to go off and do other stuff. I've already thought about this a lot and I believe quite a few of you are misreading Satya Nadella and his intentions with Microsoft.
    To put it bluntly, I firmly believe he's the best thing that's happened to Microsoft in a long time. He knows exactly where Microsoft's strengths lie and that's software development. Over the years and idiotic CEO's Microsoft has become a bloated, confused company that isn't sure if it's making software or hardware and in the end messes up making both. Nadella is stripping away everything that isn't working and taking Microsoft in a new direction that involves pushing Microsoft's services and software, because when focused Microsoft can make brilliant services and software.
    Not only is he pushing Microsoft back to its roots (software), he's re-growing those roots. He's having Microsoft deviate from what Microsoft has done in the past (and the mistakes they've made) and towards where the money is: the mobile business. Nadella is perfectly aware that the mobile market is absolutely essential for success from a software developer's standpoint, and he also knows that what Microsoft was doing clearly wasn't working.

    Windows Phone isn't dead, in fact far from it. Nadella isn't ending it, he's rebreathing life into. I'll be the first to agree that the way he went about it wasn't great, and that Nadella's weakness is quite obviously communication, but if you look a little deeper you can see the direction he's heading. For years Nokia (and now Microsoft) has absolutely dominated Windows Phone's market share, and you can imagine how intimidating this is for other OEM's. Why should a tiny OEM invest precious resources into making a phone for a market where the software developer dominates in hardware as well? Why should a large OEM like Samsung spend money competing with Microsoft when there clearly is no substantial profits to be made?
    Instead of continuously polluting Windows Phone with Lumia after Lumia, Nadella is stripping back Microsoft's presence in the hardware market to only provide software. He's pushing the Universal Application model to persuade other software developers to provide the third-party applications, Continuum to persuade consumers to purchase Windows 10 Mobile, and the cohesive UI design to persuade both businesses and consumers to invest in Microsoft's platform. He's taken a truly desperate situation and done everything he possibly could, went to extents many CEO's wouldn't risk, and made decisions for the betterment of his company to try and save Windows Phone and soon Windows Mobile. No, it's not perfect, but it's certainly better than the last two CEO's.
    Instead of this huge, bulky company that spouts out half-decent products over and over, Microsoft is evolving to become a brilliant and innovative software developer that supports its software with solid, well-built first-party devices. Windows 10 for PC is supported by the utterly fantastic Surface and Surface Pro line, Windows 10 Mobile is supported by the ever-improving Lumia line, and Xbox is supported by...well, Xbox. Microsoft is evolving from the sprawling, confused company of old to a efficient, mobile business perfect for today's ever-changing market.
    Yeah, Windows Phone is in danger, but that's old news, isn't it? If anything, things are getting better. Be optimistic guys. We all know the Lumia line has been plagued with half-decent devices for a while now, and the Lumia 640 and 640XL is the sign of a new, slicker line of Lumias. Six phones? I'm good with that. If anything can save Windows Phone, it's this new plan of action. Windows 10 Mobile will be the greatest iteration of Windows Phone yet, I'm sure of that. Nadella isn't great at communication (seriously, he should hire a guy for that), but he's sure good at listening.
    07-09-2015 02:37 PM
  6. tgp's Avatar
    That's why, for the first time, the choice of mobile OS in the enterprise space may not be quite that irrelevant. That's the only point we really disagree on and that's all I'm saying.
    It's all good! When I said that the OS itself is irrelevant, I was thinking consumer, not enterprise. I do agree that it does matter in enterprise, but even then there is a spoiler here: BYOD. The most important OS's to businesses practicing BYOD are obviously the ones that their employees are bringing. What devices are they dealing with? The ones that their employees own as personal devices, which are iPhones and Androids. So it still somewhat circles back to how important it is in the consumer world. A company with a BYOD policy cannot force their employees to use certain devices.

    Great discussion!
    a5cent likes this.
    07-09-2015 02:43 PM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    Great discussion!
    Agreed. Always a pleasure.
    07-09-2015 02:44 PM
  8. realwarder's Avatar
    For businesses, having a mobile Windows platform is important, and I'm sure that's what Microsoft cares about most. The Universal app platform is great for a business writing once and scaling the hardware from IoT to desktop to cloud. Hard to beat it for products you're designing and using.

    Time will tell where the consumer space goes. Hopefully OEMs will get on board if developers use the new tools to port iOS and Android apps to W10 as well as writing platform apps for the 1B users. We'll see.
    07-09-2015 02:47 PM
  9. mmcpher's Avatar
    Perhaps my point is that the main "selling point" of Windows 10 has been the drumbeat of "Universal apps! Universal apps! Universal apps!". Well, if there's no Windows 10 Mobile, there are no such thing as "Universal Apps". Therefore, Windows 10 would be meaningless based on their whole sales pitch.

    They spent a week at Build 2015 talking up "Universal apps!" to developers - if there's no Windows 10 Mobile what was the point of that?
    It wouldn't be simply a letdown to change to semi--quasi-not-so's-you'd-notice-universal apps, what with their being that sizable hole in the universe without phones. The whole effort, the impetus and buzz created for the alluring idea of universal apps would then merit against choosing Microsoft for any of your devices and platforms, arguing instead for the migration to a rival that offered devices across all platforms.
    07-09-2015 04:38 PM
  10. TechAbstract's Avatar
    Windows 10 becomes Windows 8.2 if you take Windows 10 Mobile out of it.
    runamuck83 likes this.
    07-09-2015 06:27 PM
  11. Narathan's Avatar
    The flood of Nokia devices sorta killed off the few oems that were still supporting WP8/8.1, at least thats my opinion. Samsung's reaction is a good example after MS aquired Nokia's phone division. They (MS) did it for good reasons back then, and it was needed in the long term to gain momentum, but now they have to change course and bring back faith to the oems.

    I think they made the right move. Seeing Acer and LG making a return, if ever so slightly with just budget phones, sparks a glimmer of hope.
    07-10-2015 08:06 AM
  12. fdalbor's Avatar
    There sure is alot of people and companies using "the last resort" out there.
    07-10-2015 08:13 AM
  13. Bobvfr's Avatar
    Let's reverse engineer the OP's statement: Windows 10 pointless without Windows 10 Mobile. Let's say that the WP line dies. And I don't mean getting technical and saying that it will be dead soon because it is now W10 Mobile! I mean dies as in Microsoft no longer has an operating system for phones. I think most of us would agree that this is a very real possibility, whether or not we would admit it.

    Should this happen, would you then say that Windows as we know it is over? I didn't think you would! Windows on the desktop would be alive and well for years to come. I do agree that mobile is of utmost importance to Microsoft, but that does not necessarily mean having their own mobile OS. Microsoft is already on iOS and Android, and their products are second to none. I believe that's what Nadella means when the says "Mobile first..."
    For me yes, I would ditch Windows like a shot if they didn't have a phone OS, I like the integration between WP, Windows and Xbox One.
    07-10-2015 10:58 AM
  14. anon(5969054)'s Avatar
    I agree with the OP because the main public and kids grow up with Apple and Google. Those are their favorite devices. Once they start making decisions in companies where they work, they will propose to switch to the Apple or Google ecosystem. Both these companies will offer enterprise solutions. You already saw this happening with ipads. They were toys for at home, but because people loved them, they found their way in business use even while there were superior laptops with windows. Microsoft bought Minecraft because they know you have to catch the kids because they will decide some day what ecosystem is used in their company.
    Also you see that every startup uses Macs these days. So that means every future big company will use the Apple ecosystem.

    If they think they can live on having apps on ios and android they are wrong. Because they would have to ask money for every service and Google and Apple will beat Microsoft by giving competing services for free. Think Google Drive, docs, iCloud etc..

    Microsoft would be very stupid to exit the mobile market.
    07-10-2015 11:28 AM
  15. ajj3085's Avatar
    If you really need a laptop, the fist option is a Mac. If you have to run a legacy-ugly Windows app you can do it through Parallels. If you can't afford a Mac, a Chromebook is a cheap alternative with great battery life and low maintenance, a secure and simple environment for consumers. I that's not enough, then you have to buy a Windows laptop.

    So, from the primary computing device, things changed, and now Windows is used only as the last resort.
    I strongly disagree that if you need a laptop you get a mac. People seem to be learning that mac isn't all its cracked up to be reliability-wise, plus it is strongly lacking on the applications. And to run Parallels, you actually need to, you know, buy the Windows OS. So even if you got the overpriced hardware from Apple, if you're using Parallels, MS still wins. Chromebooks are a joke, please. And don't forget games on PC; Steam is huge, and contrary to what some would have you think, PC gaming isn't going anyway.

    Then there are people like me, that absolutely despise Apple. I hate everything about the experience of using an Apple product, and I refused to be locked into their walled garden of content.
    07-10-2015 01:42 PM
  16. ajj3085's Avatar
    It'll be interesting to see which markets Microsoft withdraws Windows phone from. Right now, Lumia phones represent more than 9 of 10 Windows phones. Now Microsoft doesn't think mobile hardware is worth the dollars and risk, or as much dollars and risk. Do you seriously believe that third party manufacturers will take on the risk and fill the void left by Microsoft?

    Continuum looks good but will it be enough to sell Windows phones to the enterprise? It appears the only hope for Window phone going forward is that Windows 10 universal apps becomes a success and drives Windows devices sales.

    I know for me an 'uh huh' moment was during E3 when Bethsoft announced the release of the companion mobile app for the upcoming Fallout 4 game. The game is being released on Xbox One and Windows PC. Two Microsoft platforms, right? Yet the companion app for the game is being released on iOS and Android. Think about that. That's illustrates what the outside world thinks about Windows phone (maybe Microsoft can get Bethsoft to release a Windows phone version wink wink).
    I read it as they will continue to make a premium Windows Phone, which honestly is exactly what they are lacking, just like Surface Pro 3 is a premium table (and I would love one to replace my SP2). My contract is up in a few months and I wouldn't mind a new phone, but I'm not sure there's anything that's really compelling compared to my Lumia 920. Most of the WP I've seen in the past year and a half seem to be low end.
    07-10-2015 01:45 PM
41 12

Similar Threads

  1. Where can I get a 8.1 Windows recorder app with auto replay?
    By Windows Central Question in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-10-2015, 03:59 AM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-08-2015, 10:54 PM
  3. Halo Channel app coming for Windows 10 Mobile at launch
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-08-2015, 06:11 PM
  4. Snag the wallpapers included in Windows 10 Mobile build 10162
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-08-2015, 04:42 PM
  5. Fitbit releases v1.8 for Windows Phone, adds sleep goals, Badge sharing and boosts Challenges
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-08-2015, 04:42 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD