A few questions for those who oppose WP and WM10

Sam_93

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I have bought a windows phone. I am a customer . I want my money's worth. This is a democratic and free website (may be :cool:). So whats the problem in criticizing . The bad is bad wrong is wrong . We have to admit windows is miles behind android if not light years. I paid my money so I have every right to criticize. How many more excuses does MS want ? And how many more chances we can give them ? We love Ms we are tolerating . Why would others ? They didn't saw their money's worth in MS they criticized they left . MS had enough chances according to me . That beta update beta update beta update blah is being thrown every time anybody says anything negative about W10 . This is the final lap . After few days WinMO10 should be RTM or whatever. Still if a build needs its beta status to hide its negatives its a grave problem. So what will we next say ? Ours is TH1 lets wait for Threshold 2 ? Like this TH n ? The buck stops here.
 

a5cent

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Live Tiles are a good concept that is poorly executed. They border on useless the way they are. Information seemingly displays at random, which means that it may or may not be useful. And the fact that if the app does need to be opened, the Live Tile is no more than an icon. The app should be opened to whatever is showing on the tile at the moment of tapping. They should also be actionable, which in a lot of cases would eliminate the need to open the app.

Basically, Live Tiles should be turned into widgets. Android's weakness in this area is that not all apps have widgets,and that the widgets are somewhat irregular in appearance.

I agree that tiles should be actionable, as long as:

  1. tiles don't go beyond presenting information
  2. remain in the domain of the OS, i.e. while apps can periodically update their content (as they already do), interactions with the live tile must be managed entirely by the OS without requiring each live tile's app to be resident in memory.
I have a few ideas on how the start screen could be made a lot more powerful in this regard, while giving the user more control over what each tile displays and when, but I'm not sure it still matters. If it turns out that most apps are sourced from iOS or Android, I'm not sure many of them would end up supporting any WM specific features, particularly if they are of the "more involved" type like my suggestions would be. It's hard to predict the future, but I suspect we'll be lucky if apps ported from Android or iOS occasionally support a live tile as they exist now. Most will probably just be normal icons.
 

Paul1266

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I think we should change the name of this forum to Whiner's Central. Sure its fine to criticise and voice frustration at times but it seems some people on here revel in their sense of entitlement and histrionic disappointment. Bottom line is if you don't like something then move on. The app gap is real for some and irrelevant for others (like me). Support for most Android hand sets seems to last about 18 months these days if you are lucky enough to own a flagship. Every new iteration has been buggy when released and despite being light years ahead I find that OS sloppy and lacking unifying characteristics (yes I own an Android phone...spends its life in my drawer mainly). At least Apple support their devices for a few years and everything is tied together (have a 5c which does actually get some use just not as much as my 640). The cheapest phone I own is also my favourite. Microsoft have at least one happy punter here. I realise I am probably slightly mad because I actually love the look of the 950 and will be snapping one up when it hits the streets.
VIVA WINDOWS PHONE!!!!!
 

a5cent

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I think we should change the name of this forum to Whiner's Central. Sure its fine to criticise and voice frustration at times but it seems some people on here revel in their sense of entitlement and histrionic disappointment. Bottom line is if you don't like something then move on.

If I wanted to, I think I'd be logically justified in calling you a whiner for complaining about whining. I just don't think that is helpful. ;-)

[NOTE]
Those that dislike W10M have a right to express that here. Particularly long time members who really liked WP, and just wanted W10M to be a much improved version of its predecessor while remaining true to its original principles. W10M really isn't that though. Whether we are able to acknowledge those differences or not, whether we care about them or not, they do exist, and a large number of people aren't enthusiastic about them. What we all should be able to acknowledge is that this group of "dissenters" is too large to simply dismiss as being crazy, and that there is nothing wrong with them expressing that disappointment. They aren't whiners! They aren't necessarily people who have issues with change! They shouldn't be asked to leave! Besides being either flat-out wrong or completely unhelpful, such accusations will typically force people into constantly having to defend their views over and over again. It's ironic that those who most want to hear less of it, are most likely to force people into repeated explanations. It's counterproductive. It's a vicious circle nobody likes yet many here keep feeding into.

On the flip side, those that like W10M also have a right to express their enthusiasm without being called mindless fanboys / MS whores. Their views are just as valid. If they like it, they like it. End of story.

It's fine to have a negative view of W10M. That's not the problem. Many of the people being asked to leave have been here for a long time and would prefer to remain here, which is their right. It's the bickering (******! whiner! just leave!) that is most harmful to the community and really needs to stop.
[/NOTE]
 
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Paul1266

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If I wanted to, I think I'd be logically justified in calling you a whiner for complaining about whining. I just don't think that is helpful. ;-)

[NOTE]
Those that dislike W10M have a right to express that here. Particularly long time members who really liked WP, and just wanted W10M to be a much improved version of its predecessor while remaining true to its original principles. W10M really isn't that though. Whether we are able to acknowledge those differences or not, whether we care about them or not, they do exist, and a large number of people aren't enthusiastic about them. What we all should be able to acknowledge is that this group of "dissenters" is too large to simply dismiss as being crazy, and that there is nothing wrong with them expressing that disappointment. They aren't whiners! They aren't necessarily people who have issues with change! They shouldn't be asked to leave! Besides being either flat-out wrong or completely unhelpful, such accusations will typically force people into constantly having to defend their views over and over again. It's ironic that those who most want to hear less of it, are most likely to force people into repeated explanations. It's counterproductive. It's a vicious circle nobody likes yet many here keep feeding into.

On the flip side, those that like W10M also have a right to express their enthusiasm without being called mindless fanboys / MS whores. Their views are just as valid. If they like it, they like it. End of story.

It's fine to have a negative view of W10M. That's not the problem. Many of the people being asked to leave have been here for a long time and would prefer to remain here, which is their right. It's the bickering (******! whiner! just leave!) that is most harmful to the community and really needs to stop.
[/NOTE]
How on earth did you construe my last post as a complaint? If it was you may have had a point. Just saying if peeps are unhappy with this platform there is an easy solution which doesn't involve endless whinging and baiting. That said, the grumbly user is not just restricted to this forum but the sheer number of negative posts round here lately is getting beyond a joke.
 

a5cent

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^ I don't know? Suggesting the site should be renamed to whiners central sounds like a complaint to me.

Either way, don't take it too personally. I could have attached that notice to many other posts here too, and it was directed at everyone here on WCentral, not just you. So sorry if that came across some other way. Your post was just unlucky to be the most recent.

Also remember that we can also take personal responsibility for the threads we click on and read. Most thread titles are pretty clear about what to expect, and we're always free to ignore any of them.
 

Paul1266

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Believe me, I am not taking it personally. Mine was a sarcastic suggestion based on observations. Been lurking about these parts for a while now and as pointed out by Rubino recently, its seldom been as negative as it is now round here. And at the point of repeating myself, if a punters experience of this platform is not good then the simplest solution would be to skip over to the sunny uplands of android central and live happily ever after...or at least until their new handset fails to get the next version of android ;) some of the users round here just sound so miserable it beggars belief that they persist with torturing themselves by continuing to use the instrument of their misery...and is even more unbelievable that they waste their energy submitting post after post bemoaning the woeful state of affairs. Get a Samsung or an iPhone (or even a Blackberry) and live happily ever after. It really couldn't be simpler. The answer I suspect is some people just enjoy a good whine.
 

a5cent

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And at the point of repeating myself, if a punters experience of this platform is not good then the simplest solution would be to skip over to the sunny uplands of android central and live happily ever after...
No. Just because somebody doesn't like W10M doesn't mean they're destined to become a fan of Android, iOS, or any other mobile OS for that matter. Most would prefer W10M to be everything they hoped it would be. It's not your place, or anyone else's, to tell others what they should like. What you believe to be a simple solution, likely because you're unable to put yourself in their position, will for most just be a forced choice for the "lesser evil". Most would hope to have at least one option they enjoy and can feel enthusiastic about.

It's not a bad thing to be passionate.

The answer I suspect is some people just enjoy a good whine.
I'm sure you've encountered at least a few things in life you've complained about. You'll likely say you were just trying to get people to focus their attention on something that needs fixing. Could I not just as easily have labeled you a whiner then? Of course I could have, and with that I would also have expressed how petty I think you are and that you aren't to be taken seriously!

Such accusations (together with all the others mentioned in my note, which go both ways) are the real problems in these forums.
 

Paul1266

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No. Just because somebody doesn't like W10M doesn't mean they're destined to become a fan of Android, iOS, or any other mobile OS for that matter. Most would prefer W10M to be everything they hoped it would be. It's not your place, or anyone else's, to tell others what they should like. What you believe to be a simple solution, likely because you're unable to put yourself in their position, will for most just be a forced choice for the "lesser evil". Most would hope to have at least one option they enjoy and can feel enthusiastic about.

It's not a bad thing to be passionate.


I'm sure you've encountered at least a few things in life you've complained about. You'll likely say you were just trying to get people to focus their attention on something that needs fixing. Could I not just as easily have labeled you a whiner then? Of course I could have, and with that I would also have expressed how petty I think you are and that you aren't to be taken seriously!

Such accusations (together with all the others mentioned in my note, which go both ways) are the real problems in these forums.


Ha ha....who's the one taking it personally now. My comments have been about the general prevalence of miserabilism exhibited by some here. Nothing wrong with complaining at all. I do it all the time. Thing is, if I don't see the service improve i move on. Here some folk are just not supportive in a platform they profess to like. There is constructive criticism, then there is the recreational moaning. The 'if this doesnt change' I'm outta here brigade (not saying you are one o those by the way). At this stage it is highly unlikely WM10 is gonna change dramatically so if a user hates it now chances are they will hate the final product.
 
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a5cent

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At this stage it is highly unlikely WM10 is gonna change dramatically so if a user hates it now chances are they will hate the final product.

There are many people who claim that there are no dramatic differences between WP8.1 and W10M's UI. It still feels distinctly like a Windows Phone to them, and they think the notion of W10M being an Android clone to be greatly exaggerated. These people tend to think that most UI complaints are just a big stink over minor details. I don't share those views, except the part about the stink being over minor details.

The thing is, the difference between a usable UI and a truly great and enjoyable UI is never more than a handful of minor details. It's just that some people care deeply about all those fine details, because to them they represent a large part of what makes a computing system enjoyable, while for others being functional is all that is required.

Because UI's are always about the fine details, changing some of those details could already represent a lot of improvement. For many people there don't need to be incredibly dramatic changes to make W10M enjoyable again. Such changes are always a realistic possibility.
 

a5cent

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Ha ha....who's the one taking it personally now. My comments have been about the general prevalence of miserabilism exhibited by some here. Nothing wrong with complaining at all. I do it all the time.

I'm not taking it personally. I'm just surprised at how hard it is to get the point across, which for some reason you've yet refused to even acknowledge. Here's another way of looking at it:

Some people really are trolls, yet our rules disallow members of accusing each other of such. Why? Most often the accusation itself is just plain wrong. Even in those rare cases when it is well deserved, it still achieves absolutely nothing. It just results in even more mud-slinging and infighting. We also consider it backseat moderating. For all of those reasons, but primarily because it just leads to a terrible atmosphere that nobody enjoys, we treat it as an infractionable offence.

Telling someone to leave or labeling them a whiner shares all those same unfortunate qualities. While I'd consider those comparatively mild "insults", they are still just that, as they imply that the person's concerns are unimportant or not be taken seriously. They lead to all the same problems that troll-slinging does, just not on the same scale.

There is constructive criticism, then there is the recreational moaning.

The "just leave", "difficulties with change" and "whiner" insults are slung around all the time. The accusers are wrong most of the time however. In the overwhelming majority of cases, it's just demonstrating to the world the accuser's inability to understand the other person's concern/criticisms/perspective. One person's inability to understand doesn't mean the other person is engaged in recreational moaning however!

Most importantly, even if you are 100% correct, it's still not up to you to ask a person to leave or label them a whiner. If you think the member is really just moaning for the sake of it, and you feel strongly enough about it, then you should report the post! If it's not worth reporting, than it's not worth slinging those insults over it either. Doing so regardless is no better than recreational moaning. It's the exact same thing. It helps nobody. It improves nothing. It just further pulls everybody down.
 
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seb_r

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Why is it such a bad thing for people to discuss what they dislike about the Platform, whether they own a phone with the OS or not? Android forum is full of negative feedback about the OS and its taken in strides, then you come to the Windows Forum and i see a lot of "why is everyone picking on us??".
SO TRUE! I am with one leg in the android world and people there are much more realistic and not get emotional. While especially here in the WP world it is a shame if somebody is "attacking our devices". The undertone of many WP "enthusiasts" here is: if you happy and have nothing to complain stay and praise everything, if you have critics then go away.
Much like others i invested a lot of $$$ in Microsoft products (owned a Samsung Focus for WP7, Lumia 920/1020...own a SP2) and ya thats my fault.
Same here: Lumia 800, Surface RT and Surface 2. All practically abandoned by MS already and only left with some feature update to pretend some support.
I moved to Android for my mobile and people on this forum are super defensive (even some of the writers for the site get their panties in a twist over peoples comments about WP, its pretty hilarious).
Exactly what I noticed here as well. There is no neutrality that is supposed to be in seroius journalism. From the users I not expect this but at least from the authors. But it's simply: praise whatever MS does.
the forum is for discussion, that includes negative and positive
+1
So whats the problem in criticizing . The bad is bad wrong is wrong . We have to admit windows is miles behind android if not light years. I paid my money so I have every right to criticize.
+1
How many more excuses does MS want ? And how many more chances we can give them ? We love Ms we are tolerating .
To a certain point we all tolerate this by buying a WP. But for more and more people MS has hit the limit.
That beta update beta update beta update blah is being thrown every time anybody says anything negative about W10 .
I agree. When there is some negative words then this is the standard excuse. While if there is some positive feedback about something it is taken like it's the final product already.
This is the final lap . After few days WinMO10 should be RTM or whatever. Still if a build needs its beta status to hide its negatives its a grave problem.
I would not even say the current build has beta status. It is more in between alpha and beta.
So what will we next say ? Ours is TH1 lets wait for Threshold 2 ? Like this TH n ? The buck stops here.
No need to worry on this, as long as Gabe Aul is allowed to use twitter we will eb presented with an excuse. Or if there is too much headwind just - silence.

After all please keep in mind: it is just a phone and it's OS.
 

daniel cooper2

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SO TRUE! I am with one leg in the android world and people there are much more realistic and not get emotional. While especially here in the WP world it is a shame if somebody is "attacking our devices". The undertone of many WP "enthusiasts" here is: if you happy and have nothing to complain stay and praise everything, if you have critics then go away.

Same here: Lumia 800, Surface RT and Surface 2. All practically abandoned by MS already and only left with some feature update to pretend some support.

Exactly what I noticed here as well. There is no neutrality that is supposed to be in seroius journalism. From the users I not expect this but at least from the authors. But it's simply: praise whatever MS does.

+1

+1

To a certain point we all tolerate this by buying a WP. But for more and more people MS has hit the limit.

I agree. When there is some negative words then this is the standard excuse. While if there is some positive feedback about something it is taken like it's the final product already.

I would not even say the current build has beta status. It is more in between alpha and beta.

No need to worry on this, as long as Gabe Aul is allowed to use twitter we will eb presented with an excuse. Or if there is too much headwind just - silence.

After all please keep in mind: it is just a phone and it's OS.
Nothing but the truth
 

a5cent

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Why is it such a bad thing for people to discuss what they dislike about the Platform, whether they own a phone with the OS or not? Android forum is full of negative feedback about the OS and its taken in strides, then you come to the Windows Forum and i see a lot of "why is everyone picking on us??".
SO TRUE! I am with one leg in the android world and people there are much more realistic and not get emotional.

Why is it a bad thing for people to discuss what they dislike about WP? Per se it isn't.

Yet I'd think it's obvious why people here may occasionally be somewhat touchier when it comes to criticism of their preferred mobile OS. Android isn't going anywhere. No matter how much negativity you encounter on AC, everyone can rest assured it is all rather inconsequential. Not everyone is sure the same can be said for WP however. Many people react to this by putting on a brave face, staying positive, and looking forward. IMHO that's admirable. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist do understand why those folks might not be very appreciative of some people's consistently negative views. If the tables were turned, the Android community would react exactly as the WP community does now. That should be anything but surprising. It's just human nature, and I think that should be respected. Be aware of it! Communicate accordingly!

The thing is, throwing the entire WP community under the bus by claiming people at WCentral are far less realistic and overemotional isn't exactly respectful! This is the exact same nonsense I just finished explaining to Paul1266, just from the opposite side.

You are free to discuss all the things you dislike about W10M, but if you can't stop yourself from kicking the entire WP community in the process, a community that is already a bit down, then you're not welcome here.

I'm sure we're better than this. If I'm mistaken and we're not more sophisticated, then I'll have to start doling out infractions for this sort of thing. I'd just prefer not to.

There is no neutrality that is supposed to be in serious journalism. From the users I not expect this but at least from the authors. But it's simply: praise whatever MS does.

Hmmm... more indiscriminate criticism directed straight at the community as a whole and the entire WCentral staff... ("no neutrality", "praise whatever MS does")...

...my patience is running thin...
 

Ian Too

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I'd like to thank the OP for starting this thread and to those who have responded, particularly A5cent. The experience has been... instructive.

I've been committed to the Microsoft ecosystem since 2006, leaving for a very brief period for an iPhone which simply didn't meet my needs and lead to an embarrassing episode where I carried two phones. This wasn't because MS products were particularly good, they were the only ones that could do what I needed. I already had the idea in my head that Microsoft products were clunky and always playing catch-up to superior, but prohibitively expensive Apple products, which weren't as good as my beloved Acorn. (Remember them?) Given that 2 of my PC's came with Millennium and Vista, I can hardly be blamed for that opinion. Microsoft still suffer this from this perception today, though I no longer think it applies.

For me that changed with Windows Phone 7. Microsoft seem to have learned that bigger is not necessarily better, but more importantly, they were brave enough to take a different approach and their answer was not just fresh, it was elegant. I loved its clarity, simplicity and buttery smoothness. It was an iPhone contender for those who wanted choice in which device they used and resented Apple's way of tying you in to their services. I was happy to put up with a comparative lack of features and trust that MS would update the device over time. For me that promise was fulfilled with Portico and Mango, but unfortunately, it just didn't catch on.

This started the process of compromise which in some ways spoiled Windows Phone. WP was reengineered to run with less on board memory, which bought some success, but sometimes I wonder whether MS should have stuck to their guns. Maybe things would have been better if they had continued the push to add features to an immature OS, rather than commit resources to chasing a sector of the market where it's notoriously hard to make a profit.

With Windows 10 we are having to swallow another, somewhat bigger dose of compromise, this time to accommodate Android and Apple apps ported over to the Windows Store. Well, one of the most persistent complaints against WP was the lack of apps and we've all seen how poorly apps run under emulation. I can't see any better way for Microsoft to address this problem, so have to accept this as well, though I'm no great app user.

Another area where WP has not developed smoothly are where we all as Mr Belfiore said, had to 'eat our greens'. Some people felt burned when WP transitioned to version 8 and this was not entirely unjustified - they did find out rather late in the day their device was not going to be upgraded. As a proud Surface RT owner I know - the one thing promised that actually I wanted, touch versions of Office, is the one thing I'm not getting. With Windows Phone 10 that pattern is recapitulating; people with 4GB of internal memory are being left behind. I understand better than many the Microsoft have to husband their resources but really wonder if they are too profligate with their promises.

On the issue of W10 being beta software and that being merely an excuse, I feel critics are right in saying that this diminishes with each release, but I think they miss or ignore two things: that each recent release has been a significant improvement and that after the software's RTM, there is a further stage where the OS is optimised for each device. I will be surprised if WM10 is as smooth as WP8.1, but I hope and expect further improvement once MS can concentrate on developing their unified platform.

As for the future, I'm hopeful. This final transition is the biggest and most painful one yet, so it's no surprise our morale is low; but finally, Microsoft will be able to concentrate all their resources on developing their OS, rather than adapting it. I expect the OS to gain features more quickly than before and WM to benefit from a halo effect from Windows 10. Greater app availability will increase demand, which will cast more light on the failings of Android (Stagefright anyone?) and people unsatisfied with Google's OS will see an alternative.

Recent renders of the 950/950XL also encourage me, as they seem to be a distinct improvement over the clunkiness of the earlier ones. I will be staying with Windows Mobile for the foreseeable future, but that is because I don't see a viable alternative and I really do expect to see a steady flow of improvements from now on. No more compromises Microsoft, please.
 

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