10-30-2012 03:27 PM
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  1. snowmutt's Avatar
    We are smarter. Period, end of story.

    In two years, with 90% of PC's/laptops being Win 8, tablets selling at about 50% with Win RT and Pro, and WP8 being accepted and growing, this conversation will seem silly.
    10-28-2012 03:09 PM
  2. alaskanjackson's Avatar
    OK, here's mine. Note, most of this was written last night in response to a question from our Microsoft rep. I've had the Surface since about 9am on Friday, but spent most of Friday doing the same 10-minute demo for a stream of people who kept walking in to my office to see the device. Here's what I told MS:

    Surface is well built, except for the power connector. The reviewers complaining about this are right. The power connected magnets are too weak and the 22 degree side bezel makes it awkward to attach the connected because people expect sides of things to be perpendicular to the front. (Of course, the latter will get better with user experience, as I think it already is with me.)

    Most of the kickstand complaints that I’ve read seem off-base. I have been able to open it from the left, right, and bottom and I don’t have big fingernails; obviously its easiest to open from the left, where the case has a cutout. I do wonder if the 78 degree tilt from horizontal makes this device seem to laptop-ish compared to the nearly flat angle iPad users can get from their covers. In meetings at the office, iPads are unobtrusive and don't block views; Surface will.

    The device is unacceptably slow. It takes seconds (2-5) to open most apps, which is slower than on my Windows Phone. In some apps (or under some circumstances, I’m not really sure which), some UI elements don't always visibly react instantly (like the tilt effect on WP7) when touched, leading you to tap or pull them again, only to have both actions eventually take place (like selecting and then unselecting an item in a list).

    The touch keyboard is far better than I expected. It worked well very quickly for me. The keyboard connection is amazing – it seats well every time with little effort to position it and it holds on for dear life. I enjoyed giving some colleagues worried looks when I held the keyboard, dangled the Surface, and tried to shake it loose. (My other hand was ready to catch it, just in case.)

    Unless there’s some magic setting that I’ve missed, the cameras are the worst low resolution devices that I’ve seen in years. Both top out at 1.0 mega pixels. What was MS thinking here!?

    Positioning cursor is much harder than on phone. The tap-and-hold to get the I-beam cursor is not available and tapping seems to only place the cursor at word boundaries, forcing the use of arrow keys. Handling auto-correct is also harder than on the phones as I haven’t yet seen a way to tap on a word after the fact to change which auto-correct suggestion I really want.

    Some of the apps are gorgeous, other exploit the UI and layout less well, and some were clearly rushed for opening day. I expect app quality to go up as developers get a bit more time and experience under their belts. Those who executed well, really took advantage of the 16:9 aspect ratio and made reading work well. One colleague suggested that widescreen with horizontal scrolling was a more natural way to read than what we do now with long vertical pages on computers. I consider that high praise.

    There’s no street view in the maps app. (Apple must be thrilled.)

    I don’t like having a non-USB charger, but understand and agree with the logic behind the decision. Still, I wish there were a way to do a slow, overnight recharge via USB, if that's all I wanted.

    Finally, whoever suggested and whoever greenlighted the name “RT” should be terminated. It just doesn't give any sense of what it's about. Why not something like Windows Light? Then, they could call the UI “Lightweight Design” (since they need to replace "Metro") and call the programs “Lightweight apps” instead of “Windows Store apps.” Light (or ”Lite”) gives the sense of less complicated apps, more content and less chrome, and lighter-weight devices.

    I want to like it more, but it’s currently just a curiosity object. [It was bought for testing our app with a live ARM device.] I am looking forward to Surface Pro and to seeing some of the Atom-powered devices.
    Wow! An articulate, objective review? After what seems to be a avalanche of half-baked reviews yours was a refreshing read. I purchased the RT version for my wife and I to play with then pass on to the kids when the pro version is available. It would be nice if you could post your thoughts in a few weeks? Thanks!
    Last edited by alaskanjackson; 10-28-2012 at 03:50 PM. Reason: error
    10-28-2012 03:41 PM
  3. JKing106's Avatar
    Microsoft will release a service pack enabling an option to disable Metro, and re-enabling the old "Start" menu within 6 months. Guaranteed. Metro is great on phones and tablets, where it belongs. On the desktop, it's a an annoyance.
    10-28-2012 03:43 PM
  4. JKing106's Avatar
    Finally, whoever suggested and whoever greenlighted the name “RT” should be terminated. It just doesn't give any sense of what it's about. Why not something like Windows Light? Then, they could call the UI “Lightweight Design” (since they need to replace "Metro") and call the programs “Lightweight apps” instead of “Windows Store apps.” Light (or ”Lite”) gives the sense of less complicated apps, more content and less chrome, and lighter-weight devices
    +10

    Microsoft should name the different versions of Windows 8 according to what device they're intended to live on, and stop this "unified Windows" nonsense. Separate the mobile and desktop OS, as Apple had the foresight to do.

    My suggestion?

    1) Windows 8 Touch - ARM tablet and phone apps, obviously.
    2) Windows 8 Desktop - Everything else. None of the "Premium, Pro, Ultimate" money grubbing crap they've been pulling for years. Stop it. Make "Ultimate" the standard consumer OS. Offer the option to disable Metro, and re-enable the classic "Start" menu.
    3) Windows 8 Server - No explanation needed.
    Last edited by JKing106; 10-28-2012 at 04:53 PM.
    10-28-2012 03:55 PM
  5. sconrad308's Avatar
    Microsoft will release a service pack enabling an option to disable Metro, and re-enabling the old "Start" menu within 6 months. Guaranteed. Metro is great on phones and tablets, where it belongs. On the desktop, it's a an annoyance.
    I disagree with this. I love the Metro on the start screen. Live tiles automatically updated and am easy way to launch all the apps.
    10-28-2012 04:14 PM
  6. blehblehbleh's Avatar
    the part that's weird is that there's a desktop side and a metro side. that's what gets a little odd. and having to right click so I can see the search bar in the metro internet explorer.
    Out of curiosity would you mind explaining your thought process on this? I always read comments from some about Win 8 on how, like you said, weird it is having a desktop side and a Start screen. Some even call it "jarring." I'd like to understand the thinking behind this, like how do you or people with similar comments see this conceptually?

    Thanks.
    10-28-2012 04:28 PM
  7. JKing106's Avatar
    Every idiosyncrasy and annoyance with Windows 8 explained, in detail:

    [YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fsyb-ttcw&feature=watch-vrec[/YT]
    10-28-2012 05:01 PM
  8. blehblehbleh's Avatar
    Every idiosyncrasy and annoyance with Windows 8 explained, in detail:
    I honestly hope you weren't dead serious in posting that. I understand things being confusing if one were a user with absolutely no background knowledge, so some of their gripes have some merit, but other than that I feel dumber for watching it.

    It also doesn't really explain why it's so conceptually weird. I get the idea how it may feel weird because there isn't any kind of application persistence such as between browsers open in both the desktop and start screen. But if a person knows before hand that windows 8 has live tiles and the functionality live tiles present, I don't see how it can be all that weird. I suppose in the absence of such knowledge I can get a slight understanding, though I don't think I fully grasp it.
    Neo Nuke likes this.
    10-28-2012 05:50 PM
  9. sconrad308's Avatar
    Every idiosyncrasy and annoyance with Windows 8 explained, in detail:

    I watched just the first little bit and realized they are just going to hate so I turned it off. Seriously, it isn't that hard to use and I can't believe they can't even figure out how to close apps. Guess they aren't as smart as they would like people to believe.
    10-28-2012 06:23 PM
  10. seanpr's Avatar
    Right. "Mac Power User" or "iOS Power User" is a downright oxymoron. :)
    This.


    Don't bite your friends -- Yo Gabba Gabba
    10-28-2012 06:54 PM
  11. Kredrian's Avatar
    I am really loving Windows 8. I don't believe it has that steep a learning curve. Though I can hear my wife already complaining about it. All I heard for months after switching her from XP to Win7, was how bad Win7 was. Not that it was, she just thought it was. Windows 8 will be the same way I am sure.
    10-28-2012 07:09 PM
  12. anotherhawkeye's Avatar
    Every idiosyncrasy and annoyance with Windows 8 explained, in detail:

    Those guys are annoying and i couldnt watch it for more than a few minutes. That's coming from someone who is not a ms fanboy and who is not perfectly happy with the windows 8 interface.
    10-28-2012 07:17 PM
  13. JKing106's Avatar
    This.


    Don't bite your friends -- Yo Gabba Gabba
    Seeing how OSX is BSD Unix that's fully accessible from the command line, that's probably the stupidest thing I've read all day. You guys really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
    10-28-2012 07:31 PM
  14. JKing106's Avatar
    Those guys are annoying and i couldnt watch it for more than a few minutes. That's coming from someone who is not a ms fanboy and who is not perfectly happy with the windows 8 interface.
    Those guys are full blown Windows fanboys who are bringing up valid complaints about blatantly stupid choices made by Microsoft to force users to use a UI obviously designed for touch on a desktop, but apparently they're "haters." Is that right?
    10-28-2012 07:33 PM
  15. JKing106's Avatar
    I watched just the first little bit and realized they are just going to hate so I turned it off. Seriously, it isn't that hard to use and I can't believe they can't even figure out how to close apps. Guess they aren't as smart as they would like people to believe.
    You shouldn't have to go to Google or spend 10 minutes goofing off to learn how to close an app. It's called stupid arbitrary design just for the sake of change. And about as useful as teats on a bull on the desktop.
    10-28-2012 07:36 PM
  16. simonnyc's Avatar
    The more I'm playing with Windows 8 on my laptop, the more I think this whole RT vs Win8 issue is going to be a non-issue for most users. If you really think about how many ppl have really installed a bunch of "desktop" programs onto their windows 7/xp machines? i consider myself a heavy pc user and the only programs I had installed on my windows 7 machine (prior to upgrading to win8) was some canon software for my pictures, a bit torrent program and mcafee antivirus. I can see how this will be an issue for ppl that play pc games or highly intensive photo/video editing programs but those ppl won't be using a surface rt anyways so it's a moot point for them.

    I think I've installed more "programs" or "apps" onto my win8 machine in the past 2 days than I installed on my win7 machine in the past 2 yrs.
    aubreyq likes this.
    10-28-2012 08:17 PM
  17. brmiller1976's Avatar
    I am typing this from my new Surface with touch cover and just want to point out that this tablet is the first real tablet.

    Office is awesome. The UI took me twenty minutes to learn, and is simpler, more consistent, and more powerful than the iOS UI. Anybody who claims otherwise is in denial.

    The real way to dispel doubt about the new Windows experience is to just use a Windows RT or 8 device. The sheer power at your fingertips, the fluidity of the experience, and the capabilities are all well beyond one's historical expectations of a tablet computer.
    10-28-2012 08:54 PM
  18. brmiller1976's Avatar
    You shouldn't have to go to Google or spend 10 minutes goofing off to learn how to close an app. It's called stupid arbitrary design just for the sake of change. And about as useful as teats on a bull on the desktop.
    I know an Apple guy who made the same point. I asked him how to close an app on the iPad and he couldn't tell me how. ;)

    He then got mad and told me that iOS devices "don't need to close apps."

    (You double click the button, swipe to the desired app, tap and hold until it quivers, and then click the x. I googled it.) :)
    aubreyq likes this.
    10-28-2012 08:57 PM
  19. JKing106's Avatar
    I know an Apple guy who made the same point. I asked him how to close an app on the iPad and he couldn't tell me how. ;)

    He then got mad and told me that iOS devices "don't need to close apps."

    (You double click the button, swipe to the desired app, tap and hold until it quivers, and then click the x. I googled it.) :)
    What does Apple have to do with Windows 8? Nothing.
    10-28-2012 09:57 PM
  20. GoodThings2Life's Avatar
    All I know is that I've been doing IT work for 20 years, and I pick up new tech easier than anybody I know. BUT...

    I've seen the same FUD and doom and gloom arguments for literally every single release of Windows since 3.1. OMG! How will anybody ever learn this?!?!?! Blah blah! The sky is falling, because they CHANGED something.

    Nonsense! People resist it for a few months and then they adapt and move on. Then they wonder how they did without it. The same thing happens every time there's a Facebook change too. Or when a site changes its web design. Or when a soda company changes the can design of their favorite drink.

    And yet the world keeps moving, and people keep buying and embracing whatever change comes. There's always whiners. I respond with fact and solutions. And that's all we can do.
    10-28-2012 09:57 PM
  21. JKing106's Avatar
    I am typing this from my new Surface with touch cover and just want to point out that this tablet is the first real tablet.

    Office is awesome. The UI took me twenty minutes to learn, and is simpler, more consistent, and more powerful than the iOS UI. Anybody who claims otherwise is in denial.

    The real way to dispel doubt about the new Windows experience is to just use a Windows RT or 8 device. The sheer power at your fingertips, the fluidity of the experience, and the capabilities are all well beyond one's historical expectations of a tablet computer.
    This guy doesn't agree. He can type faster than "Word" on RT can register. He was told to update "Office." Here's the process:

    1 Head to the Control Panel version of Windows Update, not the Metro-accessible version that you use for more everyday settings changes.

    2 Fire up a search for Windows Update, and select Install optional updates, instead of Windows Update from the list of results.

    3 If no updates are available, have the device run a check. If there are, then get going right away. The update is titled Update for Microsoft Office Home & Student 201[3] RT Preview.

    4 Select it, and install.

    5 Reboot.

    Why I’m Returning My Microsoft Surface RT | Brent Ozar

    But he's just a "hater," right? SURFACE IS PERFECT!

    In short, like a lot of other things in Windows 8, Metro and the desktop version of the OS are almost completely unattached, and you have to update Office just like on older versions of Windows. Completely half-assed implementation. Just slap the touch UI on top of Windows 7, and force everyone to use it.
    10-28-2012 10:02 PM
  22. brmiller1976's Avatar
    What does Apple have to do with Windows 8? Nothing.
    Apple is generally acknowledged to be the easiest OS to use, yet closing an app on it is difficult. More difficult than Windows 8.

    Same with Windows 7. Closing an app is more difficult in 7 than in 8.
    10-28-2012 10:03 PM
  23. brmiller1976's Avatar
    That review is wrong. I just updated my Office RT completely from Metro, and have had no problems typing at 125 WPM using my type cover.

    Stay in the past if you want to. I'm not saying you have to adapt to new tech. I know a few people still using Amigas and Power Macs because they don't like Windows. It doesn't mean that the rest of us agree with you or them, though.
    10-28-2012 10:05 PM
  24. sconrad308's Avatar
    You shouldn't have to go to Google or spend 10 minutes goofing off to learn how to close an app. It's called stupid arbitrary design just for the sake of change. And about as useful as teats on a bull on the desktop.
    I didn't go to google to learn how to close programs. I just played around and found it in about 3 minutes. If it took them that much then they have more issues than I could ever help them out with. My mom is not the most technological person in the world and could navigate and use W8 better than those idiots without any help. Pretty sad. Sorry you don't like W8, you just won't have to upgrade, no biggie. Your loss.
    10-28-2012 10:25 PM
  25. sconrad308's Avatar
    This guy doesn't agree. He can type faster than "Word" on RT can register. He was told to update "Office." Here's the process:

    1 Head to the Control Panel version of Windows Update, not the Metro-accessible version that you use for more everyday settings changes.

    2 Fire up a search for Windows Update, and select Install optional updates, instead of Windows Update from the list of results.

    3 If no updates are available, have the device run a check. If there are, then get going right away. The update is titled Update for Microsoft Office Home & Student 201[3] RT Preview.

    4 Select it, and install.

    5 Reboot.

    Why Im Returning My Microsoft Surface RT | Brent Ozar

    But he's just a "hater," right? SURFACE IS PERFECT!

    In short, like a lot of other things in Windows 8, Metro and the desktop version of the OS are almost completely unattached, and you have to update Office just like on older versions of Windows. Completely half-assed implementation. Just slap the touch UI on top of Windows 7, and force everyone to use it.
    OK. We get it, you don't like W8. Your loss like I said. No need for you to be here. I can tell you that W8 is easier and better on my 3 year old laptop than my brand new iMac running the latest version of OS X that the company gave me. It does more and is faster and you know what? I don't even touch screen and will not go back to another OS. It's a shame that he went to all that trouble when he didn't have to. But that was how he decided to approach it and it is more work than necessary. Again, his loss too.
    Jazmac likes this.
    10-28-2012 10:31 PM
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