05-13-2013 03:24 PM
50 12
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  1. mase123987's Avatar
    You would be surprised how many people have no clue the windows key on a keyboard exists or what it does.
    05-12-2013 08:36 PM
  2. Detectionable's Avatar
    It shows you about the charm bar when you setup your account. Everyone should know how useful windows key is by now. Lower left corner is a tech feature if Im thinking the same as jerry.

    But this EXACTLY why Microsoft made the start screen, for the NON-techs.

    Also there is a really good app in the marketplace that teaches you a lot of the useful features of Win8. Cant remember the name but it is a top rated app. "Window 8 Cheats"?
    How many non-techs are ever going to see the setup screen? And more so, remember a few animated images for an OS they have yet to use and are used to the normal UI ?

    non-techs don't use the Windows key, the keyboard for them, and most, is for typing only

    If MS made the start screen for non-techs, then why is it so non-intuitive ? The only thing you see is tiles, there is absolutely no indication that there is actually a desktop that they know (Which they are back-tracking on for blue btw)

    Non-techs will maybe click on a tile wondering what it does, and then be completely stuck in a full screen app with no way to get back, there is not even an indicator that you can click bottom left, or drag from top, there is NOTHING to help non-techs

    Even I had to Google how to shut Win 8 down when I first used it, and I repair machines for a living, THAT is NOT intuitive !
    05-12-2013 08:40 PM
  3. Wacft's Avatar
    Google is totally not my friend. I've seen the scroogled ads. 

    But the link you posted is more a work-around. I, and many others, would like there to be a solution that fits in with the modern UI instead of being redirected to a desktop folder.

    I'm also not familiar with how to add more rows of tiles to the Start Screen. Maybe that option is only available when the resolution is higher? Neither my Surface RT or my Surface Pro have that option under "Ease of Access."
    I see what you are saying about the folders now. Yes I agree there should be a way to manage files in a Metro environment.


    Sorry I was a little confusing sizes, I was mentioning how to make them bigger and smaller. The ease of access option is something I use to make all the tiles bigger (less per screen) so everything is more legible on my tv. Im betting that isnt useful for you though but when I am back home I can look it up for you if needed.

    Here is the registry guide for increasing column size:
    Change the Default Number of Rows of Tiles on the Windows 8 UI (Metro) Screen
    05-12-2013 08:42 PM
  4. Detectionable's Avatar
    I see what you are saying about the folders now. Yes I agree there should be a way to manage files in a Metro environment.


    Sorry I was a little confusing sizes, I was mentioning how to make them bigger and smaller. The ease of access option is something I use to make all the tiles bigger (less per screen) so everything is more legible on my tv. Im betting that isnt useful for you though but when I am back home I can look it up for you if needed.

    Here is the registry guide for increasing column size:
    Change the Default Number of Rows of Tiles on the Windows 8 UI (Metro) Screen
    imo trying to access Desktop from Metro is similar to using Remote Desktop, most things that you would usually be able to do locally such as copy paste is a real PITA, the two do not yet work in harmony with each other, looking forward to seeing what blue brings, but not expecting much, really pleased 7 is such a solid OS tbh
    05-12-2013 08:50 PM
  5. spaulagain's Avatar
    Google is totally not my friend. I've seen the scroogled ads. 

    But the link you posted is more a work-around. I, and many others, would like there to be a solution that fits in with the modern UI instead of being redirected to a desktop folder.

    I'm also not familiar with how to add more rows of tiles to the Start Screen. Maybe that option is only available when the resolution is higher? Neither my Surface RT or my Surface Pro have that option under "Ease of Access."
    No, it works on all devices. Simply drag the App Tile in between two sections of apps. You will notice it will show a lighter color column as you hover over the area. Then zoom out on the Start Screen (pinch fingers together on a touch device). You will see the tiles get much smaller, there you can select a tile group and the app bar at the bottom will pop up with a "name group" icon. Bingo...

    windows8start.jpgwindows8namegroup.pngwindows8startrightmouse.jpg


    Trust me, once you figure out the brilliance in some of the Windows 8 tricks, you'll never want to go back to Windows 7. I've always hated the Start Menu and love the start screen. Plus, if you are working on a desktop, just pin most commonly used apps to the task bar like I did.
    05-12-2013 08:50 PM
  6. Wacft's Avatar
    How many non-techs are ever going to see the setup screen? And more so, remember a few animated images for an OS they have yet to use and are used to the normal UI ?

    non-techs don't use the Windows key, the keyboard for them, and most, is for typing only

    If MS made the start screen for non-techs, then why is it so non-intuitive ? The only thing you see is tiles, there is absolutely no indication that there is actually a desktop that they know (Which they are back-tracking on for blue btw)

    Non-techs will maybe click on a tile wondering what it does, and then be completely stuck in a full screen app with no way to get back, there is not even an indicator that you can click bottom left, or drag from top, there is NOTHING to help non-techs

    Even I had to Google how to shut Win 8 down when I first used it, and I repair machines for a living, THAT is NOT intuitive !
    Not the setup screen for installing Windows. For your Account. With Microsoft Account logins people will be setting up their own accounts, unless you just hand out those credentials.

    If you can find every letter of the alphabet on a keyboard but not a key that looks like the symbol of one of the biggest software companies.....

    The desktop is not for average people, as average people made it clear it was complicated. They made the start screen so you don't have to go there but you want to anyway? And they are not backtracking They are doing what microsoft has always done and giving options.

    And again the setup screen for your account does show you this. And everyone figured out Dos and every other version of Windows which was more complex than 8. Maybe Microsoft should have a video showing how to do this but you know what early computer users didn't have that we do? The Internet and Youtube. You can keep getting upset because the UI isn't "intuitive" or take five minutes or less to watch a video showing how to do it. I'm not trying to bash you but everything you know about the desktop is because you had no other choice but to learn it and people hated it outside of techs/enterprise users. Now there is a simpler choice but it is too simple. I don't understand how I had no issues with the desktop environment and then the new start screen comes along and I have no problems with it either. But everyone else still has a bone to pick with Microsoft, what else can they do? Brain implants? I would actually sign up for that one too lol.
    05-12-2013 09:01 PM
  7. Wacft's Avatar
    Oh and you know the view to name your categories and arrange them? Switch to that view to jump to categories if you dont want to scroll.

    If you look at the screens paul posted, the second one is what you do to avoid scrolling. You click the group and it zooms in on that group.
    05-12-2013 09:14 PM
  8. Detectionable's Avatar
    Not the setup screen for installing Windows. For your Account. With Microsoft Account logins people will be setting up their own accounts, unless you just hand out those credentials.

    If you can find every letter of the alphabet on a keyboard but not a key that looks like the symbol of one of the biggest software companies.....

    The desktop is not for average people, as average people made it clear it was complicated. They made the start screen so you don't have to go there but you want to anyway? And they are not backtracking They are doing what microsoft has always done and giving options.

    And again the setup screen for your account does show you this. And everyone figured out Dos and every other version of Windows which was more complex than 8. Maybe Microsoft should have a video showing how to do this but you know what early computer users didn't have that we do? The Internet and Youtube. You can keep getting upset because the UI isn't "intuitive" or take five minutes or less to watch a video showing how to do it. I'm not trying to bash you but everything you know about the desktop is because you had no other choice but to learn it and people hated it outside of techs/enterprise users. Now there is a simpler choice but it is too simple. I don't understand how I had no issues with the desktop environment and then the new start screen comes along and I have no problems with it either. But everyone else still has a bone to pick with Microsoft, what else can they do? Brain implants? I would actually sign up for that one too lol.
    I can see we are going to go logger-heads with this, so I will only say this, MS 'ARE' back-tracking, they heard us, Sinosfky is GONE, they are completely reversing what he did, albeit in a slow 'we did nothing wrong' way

    Sorry, but 8 is a disaster, MS know it, we all know it, a few people can't see it yet, but they will fade once MS are back on track, the start menu is one of the most useful and system feature accessible parts of windows, they confirmed this by adding the right click on the start button with a context menu of everything most of us use everyday.
    Last edited by eric12341; 05-12-2013 at 09:54 PM.
    05-12-2013 09:17 PM
  9. theefman's Avatar
    Start menu isn't coming back.
    05-12-2013 09:30 PM
  10. Wacft's Avatar
    I can see we are going to go logger-heads with this, so I will only say this, MS 'ARE' back-tracking, they heard us, Sinosfky is GONE, they are completely reversing what he did, albeit in a slow 'we did nothing wrong' way

    Sorry, but 8 is a disaster, MS know it, we all know it, a few people can't see it yet, but they will fade once MS are back on track, the start menu is one of the most useful and system feature accessible parts of windows, they confirmed this by adding the right click on the start button with a context menu of everything most of us use everyday.

    I'm fairly sick of repeating this to people so forgive me if I don't reply to you in this thread ;)
    LOL Win8 has nothing to do with Sinofsky. Microsoft has been trying to make a touch UI for over 10 years, give or take. And they are not backtracking, how is listening to their users(albeit ignorant) being spun as bad? There isnt one thing that I cant do just as quick in Win8 and a whole lot I can do quicker. Not related but Win7 can't even touch Win8 in speed. Even in the virtual world Win8 is proving more resource efficient for VMs than Win7 and Server08 so yeah it is going nowhere if it is also useful in the enterprise world.

    "they confirmed this by adding the right click on the start button with a context menu of everything most of us use everyday" no idea what this means. Maybe you meant task bar?
    Last edited by eric12341; 05-15-2013 at 03:39 PM.
    05-12-2013 09:38 PM
  11. spaulagain's Avatar
    I can see we are going to go logger-heads with this, so I will only say this, MS 'ARE' back-tracking, they heard us, Sinosfky is GONE, they are completely reversing what he did, albeit in a slow 'we did nothing wrong' way

    Sorry, but 8 is a disaster, MS know it, we all know it, a few people can't see it yet, but they will fade once MS are back on track, the start menu is one of the most useful and system feature accessible parts of windows, they confirmed this by adding the right click on the start button with a context menu of everything most of us use everyday.
    First of all, the only RUMOR is that the start BUTTON is coming back. NOT the start menu.

    They are not backtracking, they're just accommodating those that can't handle moving the start button over 20 pixels. The dam thing is still there. I don't get what the problem is with people. OSX doesn't have a start button and people use that OS fine.

    Give me a break, no wonder Microsoft was stuck in yesteryear for so long.

    And for the record the Start Menu is a horrible UI and grossly inefficient.
    Last edited by eric12341; 05-12-2013 at 10:00 PM.
    05-12-2013 09:45 PM
  12. eric12341's Avatar
    [WARN]Ok guys, I'm in here now. Lets try to refrain from using personal attacks against others per forum rules. I've had to delete or edit several posts from this thread. If we cannot be civil then points will be given out and this thread will be closed[/WARN]
    12Danny123 likes this.
    05-12-2013 10:03 PM
  13. tgp's Avatar
    You can do this through registry mods or "ease of use", I think that is what it is called.
    Yes, simple & intuitive as can be; anyone should be able to do it!

    Because people can't see 'Invisible' and 95% of windows users are not tech-heads

    No visual clues = dead in the water
    Exactly. That's what I said about it right away when Windows 8 was released and I started using it. Yes, everything is where it was (almost), but how is the average person supposed to know that? There is absolutely no indication unless you put the cursor in the corner. And since corners were not previously used in Windows, who's going to automatically check it out?

    And for the record the Start Menu is a horrible UI and grossly inefficient.
    I tend to agree, but I'm not convinced the Modern UI is much better. With the Start Menu there's more clicking, but less scrolling.
    05-12-2013 10:10 PM
  14. spaulagain's Avatar
    Waiting for you to change RUMOUR (We all know its a BUTTON, where did they find you?) RTFT

    Bud, your words are identical to many others, the ones who will also backtrack

    Calling people dumbasses makes you look..... well....... I need to say nothing

    Reply to me again when Win 9 arrives ok ;) Cool, have fun .......BRO
    backtrack what? You really think Microsoft is going to completely backtrack and put the Start Menu in there for Windows 9? Did they backtrack to DOS/3.1 after they released Windows 95 and people complained?

    Its really simple, Microsoft is evolving their OS to fit the new demands of technology and consumers in the future. Eventually touch and gestures will be the primary method of using a computer. Mouse and keyboard will be for the die hard users using more complex programs like I do (AutoCAD, SolidWorks, Adobe Creative Suite, etc.)

    The start menu is not efficient or touch friendly. It wasn't even good when using a mouse. Endless cascading folders to get to one program? Ya, that's not effective period.

    The Start Button is still there, its a hot corner just like OSX has. It isn't some new alien way of accessing things. It takes about five seconds to learn and also results in more space for apps docked on the task bar.

    Windows 8 is different, not a wreck. Just because you and others can't get past legacy thinking, doesn't mean the rest should have stick to age old user interfaces. The start button change does not break the OS or change anyone's workflow at all. This isn't rocket science.

    I use Windows 8 all day designing and developing websites, user interfaces editing photos, etc. My workflow from Windows 7 has only improved through Windows 8.
    05-12-2013 10:13 PM
  15. spaulagain's Avatar
    Yes, simple & intuitive as can be; anyone should be able to do it!



    Exactly. That's what I said about it right away when Windows 8 was released and I started using it. Yes, everything is where it was (almost), but how is the average person supposed to know that? There is absolutely no indication unless you put the cursor in the corner. And since corners were not previously used in Windows, who's going to automatically check it out?



    I tend to agree, but I'm not convinced the Modern UI is much better. With the Start Menu there's more clicking, but less scrolling.
    How many programs/apps do you use? I find most of the apps I use I'm able to fit on the first part of the Start Screen. It does sound like MS will be adding smaller tile options like WP8 which will allow for more apps on the screen.
    tgp likes this.
    05-12-2013 10:29 PM
  16. Wacft's Avatar
    I hope they do add the smaller icons. Apps like calc or paint don't need even the size of the current 1x1 tile. Of course it would be more efficient to search for those but those are two apps I always like to have pinned on the taskbar. If they were 1/4th the size of the 1x1 I would put them on my start screen.
    05-12-2013 10:34 PM
  17. tgp's Avatar
    How many programs/apps do you use? I find most of the apps I use I'm able to fit on the first part of the Start Screen. It does sound like MS will be adding smaller tile options like WP8 which will allow for more apps on the screen.
    Smaller tiles would be great! Unless there's some live info to display, the tile only needs to be big enough to show what app it's for.

    I don't expect my opinion on this to be popular here, but to me the Modern UI as a whole wastes a lot of space. I first thought about it on WP. People complain about the "boring" rows of icons on iOS & Android, but they are a much better utilization of space, which is especially valuable on a +/- 4" screen. For example, when I go to the app drawer on my WP I can see about 8 apps without scrolling. On my Android I can see 25 apps.

    spaulagain, I know you're a Windows fan all the way, but as a designer what's your honest opinion? What are the advantages to making everything bigger that outweigh the disadvantage of higher real estate use?
    05-12-2013 10:55 PM
  18. spaulagain's Avatar
    Smaller tiles would be great! Unless there's some live info to display, the tile only needs to be big enough to show what app it's for.

    I don't expect my opinion on this to be popular here, but to me the Modern UI as a whole wastes a lot of space. I first thought about it on WP. People complain about the "boring" rows of icons on iOS & Android, but they are a much better utilization of space, which is especially valuable on a +/- 4" screen. For example, when I go to the app drawer on my WP I can see about 8 apps without scrolling. On my Android I can see 25 apps.

    spaulagain, I know you're a Windows fan all the way, but as a designer what's your honest opinion? What are the advantages to making everything bigger that outweigh the disadvantage of higher real estate use?
    What many people think of as wasted space is actually very valuable. In design, white space is a very great tool to manage content and separate sections of it.

    Also, there is an element of user interaction that is often ignored or overlooked, Decision/Choice Paralysis. People usually assume more choices are always better, when in fact too many choices may result in no action at all. Users become overwhelmed with the options in front of them and can't make a decision. So in many cases, less is more. By giving fewer options, you make the decision easier.

    When you are on the go, the ability to glance and go is important. If you have 25 icons on a screen, that's a lot to sift through (visually) to find what you need. I've used a couple of my friends Android phones and can't stand it. Between their distracting backgrounds and a zillion app icons. Its difficult to find something.

    I can understand how some people don't like the big text in the People hub, but think about how you interact. Would it really improve the experience if you have 3 more contacts on the main screen? most of the time you just search or use the letter jump link.
    05-12-2013 11:33 PM
  19. spaulagain's Avatar
    In general, I think people are just very used to the old computer interfaces. Heavy skeumorphism and cramming a lot of content into one area makes usability worse. Did you ever see GoDaddy's website about 5 years ago? So much going on the home page you couldn't find what you were looking for. Domain search, the primary use case, was buried in the rest of the content. Now look at their site, one giant search box in the middle.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-12-2013 11:39 PM
  20. _Emi_'s Avatar
    start button is a waste of space... also there is already like 3 start buttons, well 4 if you press ctrl+esc. I don't understand why people would want it anyway... it would only help new users but it would be better if Microsoft made a better tutorial you check "don't show next time" to get rid of it. because then... I guess it would be turned off by default since I don't want to disable (because I hope there is an option to disable it) everytime I install windows 8 in a machine.

    but yeah... start button is a waste of space, some people say they find it useful if they are in remote desktop or something like that. but I can navigate good with existing start buttons.
    I like taskbar as it is now, clean and only useful icons with programs I will use or im using. not a button that will not do much difference (since it will open start screen anyway)

    but this is of course my experience, and I hope they don't bring it back and instead walk around about it making useful tutorial how to navigate windows 8, because new win8 apps wont have start button so people need to know how to navigate around them aswell not only desktop.
    05-12-2013 11:47 PM
  21. tgp's Avatar
    Also, there is an element of user interaction that is often ignored or overlooked, Decision/Choice Paralysis. People usually assume more choices are always better, when in fact too many choices may result in no action at all. Users become overwhelmed with the options in front of them and can't make a decision. So in many cases, less is more. By giving fewer options, you make the decision easier.
    You mean like trying to choose laundry detergent at the grocery store? You nailed it here!

    When you are on the go, the ability to glance and go is important. If you have 25 icons on a screen, that's a lot to sift through (visually) to find what you need. I've used a couple of my friends Android phones and can't stand it. Between their distracting backgrounds and a zillion app icons. Its difficult to find something.
    Yes I see your point here, but I'm not totally on board. I think that most people don't need to search for stuff. After using our devices for a bit we know where everything is. We just need to navigate to the location. In this case 25 icons on a screen is better than 8. I know that I spend a lot more time opening apps from the app drawer on my WP than my Android. On the WP I need to swipe, swipe, swipe until I get to it. If I "shove" it I have to stop it eventually, and then it may or may not be anywhere close to where the app is. Using the search is easy enough, but it takes more taps. Overall it takes more time. In my opinion the only advantage WP's UI has over iOS or Android is appearance. I think the looks is better, but I don't think it's more practical in real life.

    And just for interest's sake, I use a plain black wallpaper on my Nexus 4 (technically on Android it's no wallpaper). Partially to eliminate distraction, and partially for battery conservation. I'm not big on customization, and I don't use a fraction of what's available. I do use widgets though.
    05-13-2013 12:37 AM
  22. Reflexx's Avatar
    In general, I think people are just very used to the old computer interfaces. Heavy skeumorphism and cramming a lot of content into one area makes usability worse. Did you ever see GoDaddy's website about 5 years ago? So much going on the home page you couldn't find what you were looking for. Domain search, the primary use case, was buried in the rest of the content. Now look at their site, one giant search box in the middle.
    I don't think people are really stuck on the skeumorphism. I think it's more about workflow.

    Certain actions are automatic. You know exactly where to go and what to do because you've done it a million times before.

    It's not that the Start Menu is "better." It's that the changes are drastic enough to hamper speed and productivity because people have gone from what is easy and automatic, to relearning how to do something. The same task they were able to do just fine before.

    A nice and easy transition would have been preferable.

    A Start Button that is visible. Even if it opens up the Start Screen. That at least tells the new user that the Start Screen is the new Start Menu.

    People will need to transition to a new way of working. But there's something to be said about making that transition as easy as possible.
    tgp likes this.
    05-13-2013 04:43 AM
  23. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    [WARN]And if one moderator wasn't enough, there's another one here now. Any more personal attacks and I will fearlessly hand out infractions. Consider mine and my colleague's posts as official warnings.[/WARN]
    05-13-2013 05:29 AM
  24. spaulagain's Avatar
    I don't think people are really stuck on the skeumorphism. I think it's more about workflow.

    Certain actions are automatic. You know exactly where to go and what to do because you've done it a million times before.

    It's not that the Start Menu is "better." It's that the changes are drastic enough to hamper speed and productivity because people have gone from what is easy and automatic, to relearning how to do something. The same task they were able to do just fine before.

    A nice and easy transition would have been preferable.

    A Start Button that is visible. Even if it opens up the Start Screen. That at least tells the new user that the Start Screen is the new Start Menu.

    People will need to transition to a new way of working. But there's something to be said about making that transition as easy as possible.
    I agree that they needed to be more incremental with the changes. Especially with them switching to more frequent updates. My issue is the people that already know about it, and want the button back. That's just silly.

    Microsoft's demo video in the beginning is not detailed enough. It only shows the charms bar.
    05-13-2013 03:20 PM
  25. berty6294's Avatar
    The charm bar SHOULD be the replacement of the start menu.
    05-13-2013 03:24 PM
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