05-21-2014 09:43 PM
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  1. snowmutt's Avatar
    I was meaning it as a sarcastic jab, but I don't think I pulled it off correctly.
    As a man who lives in sarcasm..... I got it. Oh, I got it...and chuckled.
    05-12-2014 01:11 AM
  2. snowmutt's Avatar
    @Steve Itman, comment #25..... You know you are gonna get just a ton of disagreement, right?

    Look, I do not disagree with you in principle. I work for the Veterans Administration, and they JUST finished the upgrade from XP to Windows 7. Tons of users fell on the floor and whined about the changes in that, much less the learning curve for windows 8. I am typing away on my brand new Windows 8.1 laptop with a touchscreen. I have helped several people figure out Windows 8 with non-touchscreen devices, and it is not an easy movement for those not tech savvy.

    But, I need to disagree with you on one point: Windows 8 IS the future of business. Mobile OS's are only a few years from being the main way companies get work done. Of course the rank and file user is still on Window 7. But compatibility will dictate a change to that soon. Businesses want to get things done NOW... not in a couple of hours when they are in the office. The professionals who adjust to mobility will win the day in their chosen area. This will force other businesses to follow suit. Should MS repeat the mistake of Windows Mobile, and try and force an OS that is not designed for mobility on the business climate, while Apple (mostly consumer) and BlackBerry (almost exclusively professionals) took over that profitable growth area? Now is the time- PCs/notebooks still outsell tablets by a good margin, and MS still owns that market. Getting Windows 8 into the world is necessary and vital. Get the learning curve out of the way, improve performance, and gain acceptance. As Tablet markets continue to surge and traditional computers continue to slack, MS will not need to scramble to keep their lifeblood.

    Every other point- the removal of established shortcuts and commands, add-in packs designed to nickel and dime away profits, and no way to "default" back to the start screen everyone was used to- are all legitimate, especially for an IT guy. I can respect that.

    Glad to have a person of your background on the forums. It is amazing to learn from someone with your experience. Please keep posting.... and keep disagreeing. Love a good debate.....
    a5cent and forked like this.
    05-12-2014 01:37 AM
  3. Cryio's Avatar
    The good thing now is that W8.1.1 now can consume as much as 4 GB. So that makes it lighter than even XP.
    05-12-2014 02:43 AM
  4. Sagar Limaye's Avatar
    Because they miss their beloved start menu
    05-12-2014 02:56 AM
  5. Ian Too's Avatar
    Hi Steve, thanks for your post. It's good to get another's perspective. I'm not an IT professional, but my PCs are working computers. I have an xbox 360 for shootng Geth. :)

    It's three fold:

    (A) Very very very poor roll-out. They essentially blind folded their loyal customers of decades and dropped us in the middle of the desert to find our way home. It was perhaps the worst roll-out, especially for something so different from the last product, in the history of software. The first time you try to use Win 8, you have to use another computer to search online to figure out how to do ANYTHING. Right-click? Gone. File/Edit/... menu's? Gone. Click on the X to close an app? Doesn't work anymore. Alt-tab to get out of the full-screen PDF/image viewer/etc app... that you did not want in the first place? Doesn't work anymore. Control panel? Gone (well hidden from us dumb clucks). Convenient start menu? Gone. The list goes on and on of how substantially different in behavior it is, yet they felt it should be fine in businesses to have employees unproductive for a week figuring out the most basic of things, like how to exit an application.
    In fairness, Microsoft made many mistakes in just presenting the start screen when the only precedent was Windows Phone, a mobile operating system with 3% penetration. Put that way it makes the people from Redmond seem actually insane, but in realitly Windows 8 wasn't aimed at business but at consumers. Business users are notoriously late adopters - many are still on XP and paying for extended support - while Microsoft had to respond to the BYOD success of the iPad. Also, I wonder how many businesses would count as loyal customers people who made one purchase in ten years. Try that one on Google.

    (B) The main point of Win 8 is to sell us something else. The point of the OS has absolutely nothing to do with a next generation of better productivity OS. There aren't many features that will make your computer easier to use and plenty that make it worse compared to 7 and XP. Sure, once you get used to it, and spend weeks tricking it out like turning off all the useless full screen apps and installing useful ones, it may be of a similar productivity. But it is not intended to be better. The purpose of it is to force us to learn how to use a Windows Phone and Surface, so that after we are forced to like Win 8, we'll throw out our wonderfully functioning iPhones and Droids for the highly unpopular Windows gadgets. They threw our productivity under the bus to try to sell us more gadgets. There is a lot of resentment about that. Add in there recent announcement to not support 8.1 anymore to force users to even later version, the resentment is only going to get worse. Add in that the Metro interface is really a freaking billboard when you first get it, a new place for all kinds of crpware that nobody needs and that you did not want on your new computer.
    As an enthusiast and a Windows Phone and Surface RT user, I of course jumped at the chance of a low-price upgrade. I found both old-style PCs performance improved, including a then six year old Dell who was given an important new lease on life. I didn't find Windows 8 counter intuitive, though there were some head-scratching moments.

    As pointed out by a previous respondent, you are just wrong in your accusation that there is nothing next generation about Windows 8. It is the first dynamic user interface after Windows Phone and essential for mobile use. To be able to take notes on an iPad, you basically have to add a Bluetooth keyboard and then what you have is an old fashioned netbook for which you need a supporting surface. With a Surface you get inbuilt handwriting recognition and you can use it like a clipboard, which means you can create documents literally in the field, on the sofa at home or even in bed; I know I've done it. This means company reps can take orders and submit them through the cloud. They need never go back to the office and spend more time with their clients, taking orders. With Windows 8 PCs are no longer desk-bound which will save your clients huge amounts of rent on office space.

    (C) It is simply not a desktop OS. They missed all the tech trends of the last 10 years where people have both larger and more monitors and NO touchscreens. Instead they made an OS for a touchscreen that defaults apps to full screen wherever possible (it's Microsoft Window now not Window[s]). Touchscreens in business have been a bust except for tablets and specialty applications like POS, presentation solutions, etc... Which makes complete sense, try sitting all day at your desk with your hands held in front of you at shoulder height touching your monitor with your greasy fingers. Do it for 8 hours. The chiropractor business would explode. Not one of my clients has or has ever considered touchscreens in their companies. But the morons at MS think this is the current use case for computers and based a whole OS around the model.
    I think you're the one who has missed the trends of the last few years. The fashion toward larger and more monitors only really shows how disorganised people are becoming, and literally, how myopic. The biggest driver for large displays is eyestrain. What is becoming obsolete isn't the desktop PC, its the desktop itself. With the growth of the cloud. more and more people are going to work from home.

    The Win 8 debacle is a perverse confluence of corporate arrogance, tragic internal politics, and utter, bet the farm level desperation to get into the smart phone and tablet business.
    As someone who uses and likes Windows 8.1 update 1, I find it hard to accept the word debacle. I know that is some people's perception, but when I read their comments, they betray their own ignorance. Windows 8.1 has given me an extra 18 months on my old PC, has enabled me to create documents on my PC or Surface and review and edit them on my phone - or take notes an my phone or Surface and use them in documents on my PC. I like having my calendar, contacts, weather, favourites and passwords synchronised across my devices. I don't just see the advantages, I use them every day.

    I am the next generation and I don't want to go back.
    a5cent, snowmutt, mpt15 and 1 others like this.
    05-12-2014 03:27 AM
  6. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    Just wanted to say, whenever I have to use someone's windows 7 machine, I hate it. Win 8 is greatness. The old start menu was a cute idea 18 years ago. Windows 8, even though I love it, does need a few things before it's 100% flawless. 1st on my list is drag and drop for metro apps. 2nd, in file explorer on the desktop, share refuses to know that the windows mail app exists, so file explorer needs to work with charms. And also, I do loads of work on 4 monitors. My I often have 5-15 instances of file explorer open. I think it's about time file explorer got tabs.

    And other than the stupid reasons for the w8 hate, it's also just laziness. Windows 8 is super easy and it only takes a small effort to learn it. But people just do not want to spend more than 2 seconds on anything new. I mean, there's 4 corners, how hard is it to click one?
    BobLobIaw, link68759 and forked like this.
    05-12-2014 04:15 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    I agree with much of what you stated, however I think I do detect a slight lack of objectivity on your behalf, which may be contributing to a more negative view than you might otherwise have. For example this:

    Sure, once you get used to it, and spend weeks tricking it out like turning off all the useless full screen apps and installing useful ones, it may be of a similar productivity.
    On my work PC metro apps are completely useless. Just like you I don't want metro apps to interfere. Uninstalling the few annoying metro apps (PDF viewer, Picture viewer, and one or two others), removing some of the metro icons from the start screen, and setting IE to always open on the desktop takes me at most 10 minutes. I don't mind exaggerations here and there to get a point across, but claiming this takes "weeks" is definitely taking things too far. Just configuring the start screen (or the start menu in W7 for that matter) takes notably longer than removing metro apps from my desktop PC. Once you do that, W8 is no different to use than a normal W7 desktop!

    The start screen may differ visually, but structurally it is identical. The start screen is just a larger area for "pinning" icons. This is the exact same thing as "pin to start menu" in W7. Click the arrow and you will see exactly the same thing we previously found in the start menu after clicking "all programs". It's the exact same thing, and even requires the same amount of clicks. Again... the same.

    It is simply not a desktop OS.
    This is where I think you and many others went off course. Because the usage paradigm of W8 can be fundamentally the same, the W8 OS is just as much a desktop OS as W7 ever was! In fact, I think it is objectively better as a desktop OS.

    On the other hand, I think everyone agrees that MS completely screwed up the W8 launch. You mentioned most of it. I think MS is still screwing up by delivering a very poorly configured W8 out of the box. They probably should have set it up so the start menu is the only difference and let people explore the metro apps on their own, at their own pace, if they so choose. Forcing people into metro apps, when the new start screen was already more than most could handle, was a bad idea. The lack of information on where Windows is headed (some still think metro is destined to eventually replace the desktop), and the lack of video tutorials and interactive help explaining why the start screen is the better start menu was the final blow. Most of that has still not notably improved.
    05-12-2014 10:33 AM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    But, I need to disagree with you on one point: Windows 8 IS the future of business.
    I think that depends very much on how one defines "business". Metro is a mass market product. Business users sometimes fall into that mass market segment and sometimes they do not. Just because we have mobile devices doesn't mean that software development, CAD, graphical design and simulation software will disappear. The salesman, the office worker, the insurance consultant... these people probably don't need anything more than what a metro app could deliver, and they are currently forced to use a system that is far more capable, flexible, powerful, and complicated than they would require.

    The metro usage paradigm is NOT destined to replace what we have used so far, but nevertheless it will replace it for many users, particularly for the casual facebook, e-mail, office user.
    snowmutt likes this.
    05-12-2014 10:47 AM
  9. Xellsama's Avatar
    To Steve,

    (A) ...They essentially blind folded their loyal customers of decades and dropped us in the middle of the desert to find our way home. ...

    I'm guessing that you, like many other who complains, decided that you are too smart for the few minutes of tutorials when first starting your machine/Windows 8. Charms bar and menu? Explained in the tutorial; control panel and settings? in the Charms bar; Shutting down an app/window? explained in the tutorial; functions of hot corners? explained in the tutorial. It only takes like a minute or two, and the concept is really really simple, essentially "most of the stuff you are looking for can be found on Charms bar, swiping in from right."



    (B) The main point of Win 8 is to sell us something else.

    By that logic, that would be the point of everything. Windows 8/8.1 is a transition OS into a world where desktop(keyboard/mouse), touch, and mobility are all intertwined. It still has many details needing to be polished, but it's a grand vision and a bold step towards the future. By your logic, iOS and Android essentially got us to learn this bizarre interface of poking icons with a finger and got us away from the comfort of keyboard and mouse and stylus, just to sell us something.

    (C) It is simply not a desktop OS.

    It simply is the best desktop OS. In fact, it's the touch interface part of Windows 8.1 that needs more fixing. On my non-touch screen laptop that I purchased a few months before launch of Windows 8, the OS runs smoothly. Startled by the start screen? Why? Because the "icons" doesn't have the rounded edge of iOS? they are of different size? How is it different from any popular OS?? You see an icon and you click/poke, you get your program running. There isn't ANY new stuff to be learned. And if you love desktop, there's already an icon/tile that says desktop on it, click it and you are okay. The only problem might be you not liking "full screen", which is not Windows 8 specific either (heck, you can snap multiple apps in Windows 8 on one screen, can't do that on iOS or Android). And if you really do make a living doing what you claim to do, choose a different default program to open file types should be like second nature to you anyway.
    05-12-2014 11:17 AM
  10. snowmutt's Avatar
    I think that depends very much on how one defines "business". Metro is a mass market product. Business users sometimes fall into that mass market segment and sometimes they do not. Just because we have mobile devices doesn't mean that software development, CAD, graphical design and simulation software will disappear. The salesman, the office worker, the insurance consultant... these people probably don't need anything more than what a metro app could deliver, and they are currently forced to use a system that is far more capable, flexible, powerful, and complicated than they would require.

    The metro usage paradigm is NOT destined to replace what we have used so far, but nevertheless it will replace it for many users, particularly for the casual facebook, e-mail, office user.
    That was ..... deep.

    Of course there will always be other avenues and programs. Never meant to say otherwise. But, the mass user is the way MS became the giant it is, and they need the mass user in the future. They do not need Google to try and wiggle their market away by becoming aggressive with an updated Chrome, or Apple to make inroads more then they already have with the iPhone and iPad. Windows 8 is there counter measure to that, and in a few short years we will see if MS has bet correctly or not, because a large portion of these users will be mobile and desktops at major corporations will need updated.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-12-2014 01:22 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    Of course there will always be other avenues and programs. Never meant to say otherwise.
    ^ I didn't think you were saying otherwise, but I felt it could be understood in that way and needed balancing ;-)
    05-12-2014 01:31 PM
  12. Steve Itman's Avatar
    @Steve Itman, comment #25..... You know you are gonna get just a ton of disagreement, right?

    But, I need to disagree with you on one point: Windows 8 IS the future of business. Mobile OS's are only a few years from being the main way companies get work done. Of course the rank and file user is still on Window 7.
    Mobile computing, in particular Virtual Desktops, are a potential future for business. Trying to do your job on a tablet is NOT the future of business. We have mice with right-click buttons and multiple monitors for a reason. They make getting the job done easier.

    There is a reason the iPad does not look like OSX. It's because it is a completely different tool for a different use. I see lots of executives carrying their company paid for iPad around. I have never once see them open it up in a meeting or use it in any way. I love my iPad, when I'm sitting on the couch gaming on my PS3 and want to look up something about the game I'm playing. The last thing I would ever try to do, is try to do my job with it. Win 8 is no different than if Apple decided to change OSX to look and work just like the iPad to try to sell more iPads.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-14-2014 04:29 PM
  13. Steve Itman's Avatar
    To Steve,

    (A) ...They essentially blind folded their loyal customers of decades and dropped us in the middle of the desert to find our way home. ...

    I'm guessing that you, like many other who complains, decided that you are too smart for the few minutes of tutorials when first starting your machine/Windows 8. Charms bar and menu? Explained in the tutorial; control panel and settings? in the Charms bar; Shutting down an app/window? explained in the tutorial; functions of hot corners? explained in the tutorial. It only takes like a minute or two, and the concept is really really simple, essentially "most of the stuff you are looking for can be found on Charms bar, swiping in from right."
    Perhaps it is different now, at the time, there was no tutorial that popped up. I would still have had to go to a win 7 PC to search for how to access the tutorial if there was in fact one on there. The arrogance towards the users who you believe think they are "too smart" is a big problem in IT and one of the main reasons for destructive disconnects between tech and business people. Where ever you are in your career, that attitude is not helping you.

    Microsoft is arrogant for thinking they can make a radical change like that and then force users and business through it. Despite the support for prior versions of Windows, businesses still have the issue that many PCs come with Win 8 pre-installed and the manufacturers do not allow downgrades due to drivers.

    I have been doing almost all of my professional work on a Win 8 PC for almost a year now. I have since installed a start menu app, disabled all the useless full screen apps (their worthless PDF viewer, image viewer etc...) and never use Metro. But generally for me it is just a slightly less productive version of Win 7 (except for semi-frequent win 8 blue screens and common softwares that are still not supported like Cisco's VPN).

    Windows 8/8.1 is a transition OS into a world where desktop(keyboard/mouse), touch, and mobility are all intertwined
    That is pie in the sky great sounding fluff that doesn't mean anything. Explain how a desktop user would use "touchscreen"? Touching the monitors in front of you is not ergonomic. The industry has figured out over the past couple decades that a mouse with a number of buttons on it is ergonomic. And Microsoft defeats that by making an OS that doesn't use the 2nd most commonly used button on a mouse, the right mouse click.

    By your logic, iOS and Android essentially got us to learn this bizarre interface of poking icons with a finger and got us away from the comfort of keyboard and mouse and stylus, just to sell us something.
    I'm not quite sure how you got to this line of reasoning. My iPhone and iPad look completely different than my Mac Book Pro running OSX. And for good reason, they have completely different uses and usage scenarios.

    Startled by the start screen?
    Yep, you bet. The first time you click on something and the app takes up your whole 27" monitor and you can't for the life of you figure out how to get it off the screen, how no keystroke or mouse stroke you've had ingrained into your muscle memory for the last 20 years using Microsoft products does not work -- that was indeed startling.


    The only problem might be you not liking "full screen", which is not Windows 8 specific either (heck, you can snap multiple apps in Windows 8 on one screen, can't do that on iOS or Android).
    Exactly the problem! A desktop OS is a completely different usage paradigm than a mobile phone or tablet OS. Why should anyone care that Win 8 does something your iPhone won't?
    05-14-2014 04:58 PM
  14. Steve Itman's Avatar
    Hi Steve, thanks for your post. It's good to get another's perspective. I'm not an IT professional, but my PCs are working computers. I have an xbox 360 for shootng Geth. :)

    In fairness, Microsoft made many mistakes in just presenting the start screen when the only precedent was Windows Phone, a mobile operating system with 3% penetration. Put that way it makes the people from Redmond seem actually insane, but in realitly Windows 8 wasn't aimed at business but at consumers. Business users are notoriously late adopters - many are still on XP and paying for extended support - while Microsoft had to respond to the BYOD success of the iPad. Also, I wonder how many businesses would count as loyal customers people who made one purchase in ten years. Try that one on Google.
    Lol, I have PS3 for shooting Geth!

    I don't think that is the case. I know HP has been selling PCs with Win 7 on them but many now come only in Win 8 with warnings of no Win 7 drivers. That in effect is forcing businesses to buy win 8. While they may not do mass migrations but every several years, they do by computers continuously.

    As pointed out by a previous respondent, you are just wrong in your accusation that there is nothing next generation about Windows 8. It is the first dynamic user interface after Windows Phone and essential for mobile use. To be able to take notes on an iPad, you basically have to add a Bluetooth keyboard and then what you have is an old fashioned netbook for which you need a supporting surface. With a Surface you get inbuilt handwriting recognition and you can use it like a clipboard, which means you can create documents literally in the field, on the sofa at home or even in bed; I know I've done it. This means company reps can take orders and submit them through the cloud. They need never go back to the office and spend more time with their clients, taking orders. With Windows 8 PCs are no longer desk-bound which will save your clients huge amounts of rent on office space.
    Cloud and virtual desktops are all real things that are happening, I use them every day. But they don't have anything to do with the local devices one might use or the local OS they are using. You are comparing a desktop with tablet. They are completely different usage paradigms. For example, I use lots of virtual desktops, in fact at any given time will have 4 of them open on my desktop. I like having different ones open on different monitors and cutting and pasting between them. And its how lots of of people work. In comes Microsoft to say no, we don't want you to have these multiple windows open at once anymore, just one at a time fullscreen, just like on your phone!

    I think you're the one who has missed the trends of the last few years. The fashion toward larger and more monitors only really shows how disorganised people are becoming, and literally, how myopic. The biggest driver for large displays is eyestrain. What is becoming obsolete isn't the desktop PC, its the desktop itself. With the growth of the cloud. more and more people are going to work from home.
    You are confusing the physical device you have in front of you with the virtual devices used in the cloud. I think its great you have an idea that multiple monitors is a sign of dysfunction, you may have something there, although just saying you think it is isn't not sufficient. However the market is clearly indicating otherwise as we see multiple monitors going in everywhere (and no touchscreens).

    As someone who uses and likes Windows 8.1 update 1, I find it hard to accept the word debacle. I know that is some people's perception, but when I read their comments, they betray their own ignorance. Windows 8.1 has given me an extra 18 months on my old PC, has enabled me to create documents on my PC or Surface and review and edit them on my phone - or take notes an my phone or Surface and use them in documents on my PC. I like having my calendar, contacts, weather, favorites and passwords synchronized across my devices. I don't just see the advantages, I use them every day.
    It's a debacle if you look at the install rate, Amazon reviews, and other mountains of negative publicity.

    The remote edit capabilities are something that sounds nice but aren't useful. Sure you can type in or delete words but your phone power point/word/excel is a tiny fraction of your desktop powerpoint. I tested Office 365 several months back. First thing I did was try to make a PPT and do the kinds of things I normally do. I wouldn't. I don't remember what it was but it was something simple like rotate a graphic it couldn't do. Fail. will check it out in a year or so.


    I am the next generation and I don't want to go back.
    Windows 8 is not the "next generation". It is obviously one optional small part of it.
    05-14-2014 05:21 PM
  15. Steve Itman's Avatar
    I agree with much of what you stated, however I think I do detect a slight lack of objectivity on your behalf, which may be contributing to a more negative view than you might otherwise have. For example this:



    On my work PC metro apps are completely useless. Just like you I don't want metro apps to interfere. Uninstalling the few annoying metro apps (PDF viewer, Picture viewer, and one or two others), removing some of the metro icons from the start screen, and setting IE to always open on the desktop takes me at most 10 minutes.
    Yes both "10 minutes" and "weeks" are exaggerations admittedly. It takes you 10 minutes because you are a desktop support type of professional or you have done it before. It took me a good hour or two to get my Win 8 to behave mostly like Win 7. It took many more hours fumbling with common software that does not work with Win 8 like the Cisco VPN client.

    They probably should have set it up so the start menu is the only difference
    That is the biggest shock and most unnecessary move I have ever seen. Why did they have to get rid of a very well functioning menu system? And still not bring it back? Why? What possible purpose could it serve to not allow users to access their apps like that? Change is not good for the sake of change. If you time traveled someone from the 50's to today, they would probably recognize almost everything in your kitchen. There's microchips in everything now, but a fridge is still a fridge, and oven is still an oven, a sink is still a sink. Why no radical changes? Answer: because there is no need, it all works well enough! If Microsoft did kitchen appliances we'd all be in trouble. They'd do ridiculous things like try to combine the oven and fridge into a "Metro cold/hot box" with drawers instead of doors, and so alien that people wouldn't be able to figure out how to use without surfing online first and all just to have something different.
    05-14-2014 05:35 PM
  16. colinkiama's Avatar
    Just wait a few more years and people will get used to modern/metro UI.
    05-15-2014 01:39 PM
  17. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    People hate it because they are used to the familiar things. They get scared.
    That was certainly the reason for SOME people who dislike Windows 8, but not for everyone who does.

    Can you honestly say that Windows 8 represents a cohesive UI experience? Some system settings can be accessed via the charms bar others via the old control panel. Inconsistent. It is clear that Metro is designed for a touch interface. But it appears on devices without a touchscreen. That makes using a mouse/touchpad inconsistent and not very intuitive.... since the mouse behaved differently in Metro than it did on the desktop.

    I know that some will reply that it is a work in progress... well, maybe it is BECAUSE it is a work in progress that some dislike Windows 8. I know it is in fashion to blame the customer for Microsoft's missteps, but it doesn't change the fact that Microsoft mishandled the introduction of a new interface and paradigm.

    Ever use Metro on a 27" monitor? end-of-story.
    05-15-2014 04:24 PM
  18. iamtim's Avatar
    It took many more hours fumbling with common software that does not work with Win 8 like the Cisco VPN client.
    Which Cisco VPN client? I use Cisco AnyConnect on my Windows 8.1 system at home all the time, it works flawlessly.
    05-15-2014 05:04 PM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    Yes both "10 minutes" and "weeks" are exaggerations admittedly. It takes you 10 minutes because you are a desktop support type of professional or you have done it before.
    Yes. It's exaggerated. I suspect that in reality I don't even require five minutes, but maybe we aren't talking about the same thing. I admit to spending two to three hours reading up on Windows 8. However, for me that is no different from every other Windows release I've ever used. If you want to get any value out of using a new desktop OS, you'll have to read up on what's changed. In those areas that interest me, I'll dig deeper so as to develop an understanding of how it actually works, which I find essential in order to use a computing device efficiently. Since most of W8' changes are UI related, it has been one of the simplest new Windows releases to understand. None of it is complicated. It's just different.

    Now that I've done my homework and understand it, configuring a new W8 installation to "desktop mode only" is simple. I've spent more time writing this post than it would take me to complete that task.

    That is the biggest shock and most unnecessary move I have ever seen. Why did they have to get rid of a very well functioning menu system? And still not bring it back? Why?
    Because it wasn't "well functioning". I've always hated the dinky start menu. Half the time I couldn't read the entire name of the programs that were tucked away in nested start menu folders. I think you are confusing "well functioning" with "I've grown used to it". Again... there is nothing about the start screen that is functionally inferior to the start menu. Everything the start menu could do the start screen can also do... often better. If you think the start screen is functionally inferior, then you're not understanding something. No matter what task, even the amount of mouse clicks required are either identical or fewer.

    Change is not good for the sake of change.
    Agreed. Then it's a good thing that the start screen hasn't just changed for the sake of it, but has become a more powerful version of what was previously the start menu. ;-)

    If you time traveled someone from the 50's to today, they would probably recognize almost everything in your kitchen. There's microchips in everything now, but a fridge is still a fridge, and oven is still an oven, a sink is still a sink. Why no radical changes? Answer: because there is no need, it all works well enough!
    I think that is a very poor analogy. Just the fact that software is far more malleable and multi-functional than kitchen appliances invalidates it. A fridge will never be anything but a volume of cooled air used primarily to preserve food. That severely limits the extent of possible innovation. Compare that to computing devices, which are used for a thousand different things (from entertainment to bookkeeping to scientific simulations), by billions of people with thousands of different professions, each of which have different and unique requirements. The possibilities for innovation are endless. The OS should support as many of those scenarios as possible. The computing device is literally the most configurable device ever invented by man. With that flexibility comes some complexity however, part of which is more frequent change and adaptations. That is simply unavoidable

    If the kitchen appliance analogy held any weight, we'd be using our smartphones by typing in DOS boxes or running shell scripts, because for someone who never experienced anything beyond a command prompt, todays graphical user interfaces would also be a completely unrecognizable. The only way the kitchen appliance analogy makes sense, is if you truly believe that graphical user interfaces have been perfected, and that from this point onwards, any innovation can only make things worse. I doubt we are anywhere close to having perfected the graphical user interface.
    BobLobIaw and link68759 like this.
    05-15-2014 06:15 PM
  20. link68759's Avatar
    That was certainly the reason for SOME people who dislike Windows 8, but not for everyone who does.

    Can you honestly say that Windows 8 represents a cohesive UI experience? Some system settings can be accessed via the charms bar others via the old control panel. Inconsistent. It is clear that Metro is designed for a touch interface. But it appears on devices without a touchscreen. That makes using a mouse/touchpad inconsistent and not very intuitive.... since the mouse behaved differently in Metro than it did on the desktop.

    I know that some will reply that it is a work in progress... well, maybe it is BECAUSE it is a work in progress that some dislike Windows 8. I know it is in fashion to blame the customer for Microsoft's missteps, but it doesn't change the fact that Microsoft mishandled the introduction of a new interface and paradigm.

    Ever use Metro on a 27" monitor? end-of-story.

    What are you even talking about?

    The regular control panel has everything. There's a ModernUI version of the control panel that controls some of the more common control panel elements (winupdate) and also houses the ModernUI specific settings.

    The mouse doesn't suddenly behave differently anywhere. You point and click. What's unintuitive here?

    I use ModernUI apps (Netflix, youtube) on my 42" TV, with a mouse and keyboard. Better than desktop windows, precisely because of the larger interface elements keep things visible from an appropriate TV viewing distance.

    I use modernUI on my 26" monitor I sit right in front of. The size of the UI elements don't somehow offend me- you didn't really elaborate on that irrational remark.

    The whole "it's not cohesive" ... "argument" doesn't really hold any water. The apps are part of an entirely new ecosystem- you should be able to instantly and easily identify that you are not in the traditional desktop. Apps behave differently, intentionally, and it's intelligently designed to be different partially so you're not confused as to what you're using and what to expect. There are good reasons for this, but instead of wasting my time spelling it out, I could easily just point out that you never need to use ModernUI, or even the explorer shell for that matter.
    05-16-2014 01:18 AM
  21. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    What are you even talking about?

    The regular control panel has everything. There's a ModernUI version of the control panel that controls some of the more common control panel elements (winupdate) and also houses the ModernUI specific settings.

    The mouse doesn't suddenly behave differently anywhere. You point and click. What's unintuitive here?

    I use ModernUI apps (Netflix, youtube) on my 42" TV, with a mouse and keyboard. Better than desktop windows, precisely because of the larger interface elements keep things visible from an appropriate TV viewing distance.

    I use modernUI on my 26" monitor I sit right in front of. The size of the UI elements don't somehow offend me- you didn't really elaborate on that irrational remark.

    The whole "it's not cohesive" ... "argument" doesn't really hold any water. The apps are part of an entirely new ecosystem- you should be able to instantly and easily identify that you are not in the traditional desktop. Apps behave differently, intentionally, and it's intelligently designed to be different partially so you're not confused as to what you're using and what to expect. There are good reasons for this, but instead of wasting my time spelling it out, I could easily just point out that you never need to use ModernUI, or even the explorer shell for that matter.
    Trolls will be trolls. Anyway, I use win 8.1 on four 30 inch monitors. It's so awesome! The only thing that comes close is my surface pro 2, and that's only because I can work from anywhere. It's all just fantastic and wonderful stuff. LOVE IT!!!!

    kc4doffice.jpg
    05-16-2014 04:21 AM
  22. EC Translating Services's Avatar
    If my two cents count i don't hate Win 8. Bought it since day one and i have always been happy. My only rant is some confusion with duplicated menus and the Metro interface that's not suitable for work. Installed Classic Shell, and never had one single crash or issue.

    It's perhaps the best Win version MSFT ever did in terms of stability.
    05-16-2014 04:34 AM
  23. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    If my two cents count i don't hate Win 8. Bought it since day one and i have always been happy. My only rant is some confusion with duplicated menus and the Metro interface that's not suitable for work. Installed Classic Shell, and never had one single crash or issue.

    It's perhaps the best Win version MSFT ever did in terms of stability.
    The metro interface is totally suited for work. I use it all the time, non stop! And if you really want to think that, go ahead. They put options for you to log directly into the desktop. You should have anything to complain about. And just for people like you they are even bringing back a start menu. I will personally use the full screen menu because it makes more sense. that small clunky menu that's shoved in the corner is so 1990's.
    05-16-2014 04:38 AM
  24. Chregu's Avatar
    Windows 7 is great. I love it (and still use it at work). Then Windows 8 came along and it was just terrible to use on my two big screens at home.

    Metro apps are totally useless on a desktop computer, there's still none I use. So the Metro "start menu" is absolutely useless too. There's nothing of interest to me, and still it occupies my entire screen and takes me out of my work flow. Also, Windows 8 was just Windows 7 with the Metro surface put on it, and it showed that Microsoft just didn't have time to do it in a good way. Everything was really disconnected.

    With 8.1 things have much improved, it's okay now. I'm still looking forward to the new old start menu though.

    Metro might be great on tablets, it might be good on touch screen laptops, I really dislike it on my computer. And I have nothing against the design language at all, as I'm using Windows Phone since WP7 was released.

    Call me old fashioned, call me scared of new things (even though I think that's really silly), I just didn't like Windows 8.

    And I notice that some of you really confuse Windows 8 (very disconnected) and Windows 8.1 (much improved in this regard) in this thread.
    05-16-2014 04:49 AM
  25. EC Translating Services's Avatar
    Different needs, different tastes mate. I love W8/8.1. I bought it with 0 regrets. Had no crashes ever since, this without considering how fast it boots.

    That said, i hate those fixed windows, i hate the tiles in the metro interface i hate basically everything about that side. I have a touch laptop too and still use the classic one. Just don't like the other. I hate when i open skype and can't put it as i want on my screen, I hate the slow market (on two i7 with 16GB and 100MB connection). It's just time consuming. You can tell me what you want, but as much as i love the OS (and God if i love it), i can't manage to like those tiles. So welcome be the classic menus. You can keep going with the modern UI. Peace
    05-16-2014 10:15 AM
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