05-21-2014 10:43 PM
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  1. a5cent's Avatar
    Go to useless Metro Interface. Open the useless PDF viewer, you know the one that will force a PDF doc to fill your entire 27" monitor and not allow you to window it like approximately 99% of users would want. Try to right-click somewhere. What happens? For me nothing. I get no context menu, one of the most useful things ever put into Windows. Using Win 8. (have not "upgraded" to 8.1 yet)
    Argg ;-)

    Look... that is not W8. That is Microsoft's PDF viewer for metro! It's just an app that is shipped with the OS. The only "metro like" thing that belongs to W8 is the start screen. The reason you are disappointed is because you expect to use a touch centric app as if it were desktop software. Not everyone here is going to agree with me, but IMHO that is a ridiculous expectation. I don't think those two usage models can ever be combined under a single UI design language, and expecting that seems ridiculous to me. It may work in some cases, but it will never work for every piece of software. If you want to open a PDF document on the desktop, and you are a heavy mouse/keyboard user, then use desktop software. There are more than enough choices. Why must you use precisely the touch centric app that is least suited to your desktop use-case?
    05-16-2014 07:35 PM
  2. link68759's Avatar
    Not a third separate API, but a newer version of the Win32 API that is purged of all the outdated concepts that exist purely for compatibility's sake. The idea would be to make it as easy as possible to port Win32 based applications into a cleaner, more secure environment that jives well the concepts introduced by WinRT, without forcing developers to sacrifice one or two decades worth of investments in Win32 software. IMHO that is not something Windows Store apps can achieve, because the differences between WinRT and Win32 are insurmountable.



    Where do you see this high level of code portability between Win32 and WinRT? I see zero.



    Nothing. I just wouldn't call that "ModernUI". I'd call that WinRT with support for multiple UI paradigms. One being touch centric (ModernUI) the other being the traditional desktop UI. Like I said, IE is already doing something like that.

    Either way, our differences are small compared to what others here think. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you either. I'm just extremely sceptical that MS will ever get companies with large investments in desktop software to port those applications over to WinRT. It's too different, it doesn't perform as well as Win32, and more than everything else, I think it's far too costly.

    I think this is an interesting debate, but I'll let you have the last word on this since we're probably getting a bit off topic. ;-)

    I only have one comment, because I agree with you that we're basically talking about the same thing from different angles :)

    I'm under the impression code portability is very high. For example, putty was ported to WP8, and according to the developers, "all the original putty code is untouched, we only adapted the UI for mobile in ModernUI style." WP development isn't that far from RT development; once again it's mostly UI differences.

    Obviously anything that is deeply rooted in working with Windows desktop internals (such as VPNs which create network adapters and so on) will not be as easily portable, but for anything that's simple I/O and doesn't much around to much in the system components, porting it shouldn't be hard.


    Steve Itman, your incessant negativity isn't making us see your side of things. So far, you've made sweeping statements and backed them up with minor and almost irrelevant examples, all the while hatred seething from every sentence. I don't think your irrational distaste for ModernUI is really contributing to our otherwise constructive discussion.
    05-16-2014 07:49 PM
  3. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    My career delivering Microsoft based software solutions so I definitely do not hate Microsoft just Windows 8. I am still waiting to hear about all those "many new features that make life easier". I've used Win 8 everyday for a year now. I do not use the useless Metro. I also have a Win 7 PC. I can fathom no advantage Win 8 gives me. Boot up times have almost imperceptible differences (except for the fact Win 8 blue screens all the time so I get to see that boot a lot - partly my fault as I have refused to update to 8.1).
    Here are just a few examples that made my life way easier the other day. MS exchanged my Surface Pro for a Surface Pro 2. Out of the box, all I had to do was log in, and most of my settings and things were all in place. My desktop synced, my lock screen synced. Windows 8 also syncs your favorites, usernames, passwords, WiFi passwords and more. Also, I have an external HD with ISO's on them for the programs I install often (which is really handy since the surface has no dvd drive), without having to install 3rd party software, I can right click an iso to mount the disk image In the past I would have to go install some other software first. Also, I love the group copy/move boxes, and you can now pause them. that comes in really handy if you need to hurry up and do something else because pausing frees up your system recourses. And the folder up button in explorer is nice too. There are many more things too. Maybe perhaps since you didn't know of all these wonderful things, you should be in a non tech field. And if you don't see any of these things as super nice, than perhaps you don't really use computers.
    05-16-2014 09:45 PM
  4. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    Here are just a few examples that made my life way easier the other day. MS exchanged my Surface Pro for a Surface Pro 2. Out of the box, all I had to do was log in, and most of my settings and things were all in place. My desktop synced, my lock screen synced. Windows 8 also syncs your favorites, usernames, passwords, WiFi passwords and more. Also, I have an external HD with ISO's on them for the programs I install often (which is really handy since the surface has no dvd drive), without having to install 3rd party software, I can right click an iso to mount the disk image In the past I would have to go install some other software first. Also, I love the group copy/move boxes, and you can now pause them. that comes in really handy if you need to hurry up and do something else because pausing frees up your system recourses. And the folder up button in explorer is nice too. There are many more things too. Maybe perhaps since you didn't know of all these wonderful things, you should be in a non tech field. And if you don't see any of these things as super nice, than perhaps you don't really use computers.
    Or the poster has a different idea of what is useful than you do.
    05-16-2014 09:58 PM
  5. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    Or the poster has a different idea of what is useful than you do.
    This is one of the most useless posts I've ever seen.
    05-16-2014 10:11 PM
  6. iamtim's Avatar
    In nothing but fullscreen mode right?
    Um... no, wrong. Instead of getting Skype from the Store, go to Skype.com and download the desktop version. It'll install and run on the desktop like it always did.
    05-16-2014 11:09 PM
  7. desitunez's Avatar
    Windows branding in general is not doing well amongst users.

    Windows is something users relate to WORKSPACE * work.. something they don't like.

    Secondly Windows 8 when it was released there was no auto-kms available for pirates , most vocal community i bet they don't pay for licences or own any windows .. they hated Windows 8 cause they couldnt get cracked copies , which was not the case for windows 7


    Windows RT >> Key selling point was free office .. that didn't work for MS.

    Windows 8 >> key selling point is right now snap / 2 open apps ( lot of users thing that is unique selling point ) however that will be killed soon and i dont think its contributing to any sales. Apple is rumoured to bring 2 open apps in IOS8 .

    WP8.1 >> fastest keyboard >> well it didnt take long for that record to be broken.

    I think Microsoft need to improve the brand image and get users like us to be their promoters of product.
    05-16-2014 11:18 PM
  8. iamtim's Avatar
    It does not right-click anymore.
    You are... sorely mistaken. That one of the most incorrect statements I've ever read.

    (open useless fullscreen PDF viewer and right click, tell me what happens)
    Nothing, until I open a PDF document in the viewer. Once I have a PDF open, right-clicking drops down a bar at the top containing thumbnails of all the open PDFs in the viewer and raises a bar at the bottom containing the Find, Two Pages, One Page, Continuous, Save As, Print, and More buttons. Clicking the More button gives me the Rotate and Info options.
    05-16-2014 11:22 PM
  9. EC Translating Services's Avatar
    ...you know that you can download and use the regular Skype desktop app, yes?
    "That said, i hate those fixed windows, i hate the tiles in the metro interface i hate basically everything about that side. I have a touch laptop too and still use the classic one"

    You know i mentioned i use the classic interface, do you? Or you missed that part? So that means i have all desktop apps on the standard interface. It includes Skype, Chrome (Which again in Win 8 mode takes all the estate stopping other software i use to translate and preventing me from resizing dictionaries, glossaries, translating software with multiple windows in them etc.). I suspect you may have missed the part where i was explaining i hate the Metro/Modern versions of those apps because A) they take an absurd amount of estate on big screen (imagine those on a 27" screen refusing to resize at your will and you needing multiple windows on your screen, which you bought exactly for that purpose) and B) are simply not practical beyond a tablet. That is where i came from. Each time i try that interface i stop using it after 10 seconds. How can someone call non resizable windows taking so much space and refusing to be placed where you want on a display "good for working use", as someone claimed is beyond me. The OS is nice, fast, stable, and well designed and i have been discussing this with the Linux maniacs in other forums to curb their superiority complexes, however that MSFT did with W8 UI is a disaster for people working in multiwindow mode. That, i think, doesn't take a huge amount of IQ to understand. It's an UI designed for small devices and people who don't really do much multitasking, maybe.
    PS: if someone needs 4 or 5 screens to work good on W8 then it's a bad sign.
    05-17-2014 02:41 AM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    "That said, i hate those fixed windows, i hate the tiles in the metro interface i hate basically everything about that side.
    hammer.png

    That is what your position sounds like to me.

    Even with a touch enabled laptop, if you are using primarily the mouse and keyboard, the metro side of the Windows hammer isn't necessarily for you. Luckily enough, if you don't like metro on the desktop, you have a million other non-metro options. Metro is awesome on tablets and smartphones however. Is it that hard to acknowledge that a UI can be good in one use-case but bad in another, and that it would make sense to use the right side of the tool for what you are trying to do? Damn those hammers...
    05-17-2014 05:55 AM
  11. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    This is one of the most useless posts I've ever seen.
    Just pointing out the end of your post is generalizing a bit. What you find useful or life improving on Windows 8 might not be to others. I like Windows 8. But on the most basic level of computer use, I'm not sure what it offers to the average person using Windows 7 (which I use at work) that makes it better.
    05-17-2014 06:55 AM
  12. Chregu's Avatar
    Gonna stop you there.

    Actually, the changes to the kernel and under the hood improvements are very, very significant. 8 is not just a new skin, which is why it's stupid that people still cling to 7. If you absolutely cannot adapt to the start screen, go buy the stardock win8 start menu.
    They might be significant to you, they might be significant to a lot of people. They don't seem to be significant to me. And even if they were, Windows 8 could have all these improvements without Metro.

    I expect the software to be better in a new release and not just offer some new way of using it.

    Also, all my personal computers run Windows 8, only at work I still have Windows 7. It's nothing to do with stubbornness. And I'm no native English speaker, but I thought that the expression "moron" is very impolite nowadays.
    05-17-2014 07:53 AM
  13. Chregu's Avatar
    @a5cent

    I won't specifically answer your post. As always I love what you write and I of course I agree. At the end it comes to taste, as the new start menu offers no real advantage and no real disadvantage (in Windows 8.1, in Windows 8 it was just terrible to use in my opinion).

    I prefer the old and soon to be new start menu. I think however there should be a choice to keep the new one. And how knows, it might evolve to something I find really great.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-17-2014 07:55 AM
  14. TLRtheory's Avatar
    It's a fad to hate it. That's really it.

    I work as both a company-promoted tech and a field tech, and hear people saying the same things all the time. A lot of them are blaming Windows 8 for problems w7 has.

    The grand majority of the time, I tell them how to access the desktop and they act like I just walked on water.

    What I love more than anything is when someone just genuinely asks why it's hated because then I demonstrate easy usage live and they're left wondering what level of stupid Windows 8 haters would have to be to think it's not better than 7 in every way.
    link68759, BobLobIaw and Ntropy99 like this.
    05-17-2014 07:57 AM
  15. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    What are you even talking about?

    The regular control panel has everything. There's a ModernUI version of the control panel that controls some of the more common control panel elements (winupdate) and also houses the ModernUI specific settings.
    Yes, the classic control panel has what it always had. But the Modern UI (MUI) settings, via the Charms bar menu does not. A person using the MUI to adjust settings would find that not everything can be done via the MUI version of settings. That's what I'm talking about.

    The mouse doesn't suddenly behave differently anywhere. You point and click. What's unintuitive here?
    Using the scroll wheel on the mouse on the desktop scrolls in reverse to how it behaves in MUI apps. That's what I'm talking about.

    I use ModernUI apps (Netflix, youtube) on my 42" TV, with a mouse and keyboard. Better than desktop windows, precisely because of the larger interface elements keep things visible from an appropriate TV viewing distance.
    That is fine if you are using your Windows 8 machine as an HTPC. But as a regular work machine, that is useful. As a software developer I'm not using a 42" TV to watch Netflix, but I do use a 26" monitor for debugging and trace logs. MUI editors don't "scale up" to use the larger screen effectively.

    I use modernUI on my 26" monitor I sit right in front of. The size of the UI elements don't somehow offend me- you didn't really elaborate on that irrational remark.
    I didn't say it offended me, but go ahead and put words in my mouth anyways. It is not irrational to need a UI to handle higher resolutions. The problem with MUI is that it magnifies what is on the screen as the screen increases in resolution... Windows before Win8 would support more content.


    The whole "it's not cohesive" ... "argument" doesn't really hold any water. The apps are part of an entirely new ecosystem- you should be able to instantly and easily identify that you are not in the traditional desktop. Apps behave differently, intentionally, and it's intelligently designed to be different partially so you're not confused as to what you're using and what to expect. There are good reasons for this, but instead of wasting my time spelling it out, I could easily just point out that you never need to use ModernUI, or even the explorer shell for that matter.
    If you fail to see that MUI is a different paradigm than the traditional Windows UI then I don't have the ability to help you to see.
    05-17-2014 09:45 AM
  16. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    Trolls will be trolls.
    Fanboys will be fanboys... until they grow up and move out of their parents basement.
    05-17-2014 09:48 AM
  17. ShreyansShah's Avatar
    this thread looks interesting.
    hope it doesn't turn into a war zone.
    xandros9 likes this.
    05-17-2014 09:51 AM
  18. dertdog's Avatar
    Damn, you hit the nailed it with your point. Ppl often hate things all microsoft just because. But the ones who do bash windows 8 don't like change and isn't open to anything new.
    BobLobIaw likes this.
    05-17-2014 10:06 AM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    [warn]If we can contribute only by calling people stubborn, close minded, brainless fad followers, or morons, then it's best not to contribute at all. It doesn't advance either side's argument and is basically worthless fluff. Let's keep such threads interesting.

    I will be forced to close the thread if we can't keep things civil and acknowledge that there are good arguments to be made, both for AND against the modern UI.
    [/warn]
    05-17-2014 11:53 AM
  20. link68759's Avatar
    Yes, the classic control panel has what it always had. But the Modern UI (MUI) settings, via the Charms bar menu does not. A person using the MUI to adjust settings would find that not everything can be done via the MUI version of settings. That's what I'm talking about.


    Using the scroll wheel on the mouse on the desktop scrolls in reverse to how it behaves in MUI apps. That's what I'm talking about.


    That is fine if you are using your Windows 8 machine as an HTPC. But as a regular work machine, that is useful. As a software developer I'm not using a 42" TV to watch Netflix, but I do use a 26" monitor for debugging and trace logs. MUI editors don't "scale up" to use the larger screen effectively.

    I didn't say it offended me, but go ahead and put words in my mouth anyways. It is not irrational to need a UI to handle higher resolutions. The problem with MUI is that it magnifies what is on the screen as the screen increases in resolution... Windows before Win8 would support more content.



    If you fail to see that MUI is a different paradigm than the traditional Windows UI then I don't have the ability to help you to see.
    Actually, using the scrollwheel works the same as it always does in vanilla 8; you must have a lenovo? Or some OEM modification to synaptics? That can be solved by installing a regular version of synaptics. If not, I don't know why your PC is doing that, but it's not default behavior.

    The fallacy of the rest of your argument is it hinges on ModernUI being the best at everything, and if it doesn't do one specific thing well then it's terrible. Yes, you're right, I would not be using a MUI debug program, partially because one doesn't and couldn't ever exist, but also partially because yeah the current implementation of MUI isn't conducive to nitty-gritty work like that. I also wouldn't use a touch browser with mouse and keyboard.

    It's called using the right tool for the job, and so far your argument reads, "I tried to use the wrong tools for a task and those tools sucked at that task". MUI brings a few tools to the table (though not many yet, as I elaborated on in an earlier post), and the desktop has all the tools it has always had. The desktop is not being phased out, MUI and desktop will be developed in parallel.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-17-2014 12:28 PM
  21. tgp's Avatar
    Ppl often hate things all microsoft just because.
    That's true. It's also true that some people love all things Microsoft just because (it's Microsoft). I like the hammer analogy. However, it seems to me that some users are essentially saying that the claw side is the new way of driving nails, and we need to learn to love it and use it.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-17-2014 12:59 PM
  22. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    Fanboys will be fanboys... until they grow up and move out of their parents basement.
    You really make no sense. What does that have to do with anything? There are no parents or basements spreading their awfulness in this thread, it's just guys like you.
    BobLobIaw likes this.
    05-17-2014 01:10 PM
  23. EC Translating Services's Avatar
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	66760

    That is what your position sounds like to me.

    Even with a touch enabled laptop, if you are using primarily the mouse and keyboard, the metro side of the Windows hammer isn't necessarily for you. Luckily enough, if you don't like metro on the desktop, you have a million other non-metro options. Metro is awesome on tablets and smartphones however. Is it that hard to acknowledge that a UI can be good in one use-case but bad in another, and that it would make sense to use the right side of the tool for what you are trying to do? Damn those hammers...
    ..or maybe it's you refusing to understand. I need to have multiple windows on for work. I need two for dictionaries, one for a translating software, one browser + skype + else. In this perspective, what is cool on tablets and mobile phones becomes totally worthless for productivity.
    While you are at hammers and stuff really hard to get, can you go back to my posts and tell me where i EVER blamed "phones" and "tablets" for having Windows 8? Windows 8 is exactly designed for those, ie devices that don't require multiwindow (or two windows at max). Apart from that, when you mention "phones" you're not talking about Windows 8 but about Windows Phone. And, did i mention i own a tablet? No i think. I said i have two computers, both on Win 8.1, with one (an Acer V7) with touchscreen. I have been supporting the OS since first day for its innovation, for the new functionalities for the smoothness etc.. However, trying to persuade people they are dumb because they simply acknowledge the fact the OS is not designed for multiwindow productivity with resizable windows etc. is madness for me. For your information, the fact windows are not resizable, take a lot of real estate and look good in some devices but perform awfully in bigger ones (what is the purpose of Skype taking half of a 30" display? What is the purpose of being unable to put 4 or 5 windows on a screen?) is one of the main reason why professionals are refusing to migrate to W 8.1 (Admittedly many are dumb and don't know you can go to desktop without even showing the modern UI).

    Going back to hammers and stuff hard to understand, are you sure you understood what i meant?! You seem confused to me. Tablet, Phones and Laptops and Desktops are completely different devices. You know that don't you? I give you a clue: "we're not talking about how good the UI looks on small devices. We're talking about how productive that UI is in a multiwindow environment."

    Now, in case of further confusion, worry not, i have the right OS for you :-)

    maxresdefault.jpg
    05-17-2014 09:32 PM
  24. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    ..I need to have multiple windows on for work. I need two for dictionaries, one for a translating software, one browser + skype + else. In this perspective, what is cool on tablets and mobile phones becomes totally worthless for productivity.
    Actually, you can do all that just as good and in many ways better with windows 8. I do graphic design, video editing, 3d modeling and more on four 30 inch monitors with windows 8, it's the best thing ever. You just simply need to learn how to use it.
    05-17-2014 09:45 PM
  25. EC Translating Services's Avatar
    Actually, you can do all that just as good and in many ways better with windows 8. I do graphic design, video editing, 3d modeling and more on four 30 inch monitors with windows 8, it's the best thing ever. You just simply need to learn how to use it.
    The multiwindow function is very limiting. It's like working into cages. Do you understand what i mean? It's good on Tablets and small devices. Terrible when you have dozens of windows open overlapping and you work like that all day. Why the heck should i settle for a bunch of "preformed" windows when i can have the freedom to resize, overlap and move them around at will?
    That is my point. Apart from that, some software are not supported in Modern/Metro (Trados, MemoQ, Catalyst, dictionaries, a variety of localization suites etc.). There is really no point for me to work in such a limited box. The OS is solid and stable. Never had one crash. It improved my work in so many ways. But that interface is limiting for my needs. I perceive those limitations as a "Birdcage" that makes you prisoner. That's how my brain sees it. Don't misunderstand me, i have tried to work in that for the sake of science (i do localize UIs too, together with industrial interfaces etc.); however it just doesn't suit. In 3D modeling you may need to use 1, 2 windows maybe. In localization you have constantly 6 or 7 windows open and exchange data with others in other places around the world, send screenshots etc. W8 UI just doesn't fit my needs. I am sure it fits those of other people very well. We have to simply acknowledge that while the old UI was good for everyone the new UI is unable to meet the needs of some users, while looking gorgeous on all devices (I agree it's gorgeous, i agree it's functional in small devices).
    However, since i am eager to learn, you can tell me how you can take 6/8 windows open in modern UI and even overlap them or simply move them around the screen at will. Including software that is not designed for the UI like dictionaries etc.
    Am i missing something? That's a real question.
    05-17-2014 10:15 PM
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