05-21-2014 10:43 PM
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  1. Chregu's Avatar
    I agree with most of your points. However I think you have to keep in mind that things are special with Windows.

    My point is this, yes, W8 is different then previous versions of Windows. You can use it, but you don't have to, there's plenty alternatives like windows 7, various linux distributions, OSX... If you were always driving Audis and they changed something that you don't like, and if you kept insisting on Audi because 'you used to like it', then people would think you're crazy. Get another car, or keep your old one, chances are it still runs just fine. W8 performance wise is a great update over W7, plenty of things on desktop mode are improved, graph when copying files and task manager being (to me) most noticeable ones.
    Microsoft didn't force you to use anything. The choice to buy a computer with W8 or to buy W8 and install it yourself was completely yours. It's like saying Samsung is forcing you to buy a new phone just because they released it. You don't have to get it, my dad still has a 2011 Xperia Ray and he's just fine with it. Life isn't only black or only white, it's mostly quite grey, almost never will you be able to find a product that you're 100% happy with, especially if you didn't make it yourself.
    Of course I could use Linux (and I have it installed on my laptop), but most of the software I use is not available for it. That leaves Mac OS X or an older version of Windows. I don't want to change to Mac for multiple reasons. One thing is that I bought my software for Windows, another reason is that I like to play some games at home at times, still another reason is that they don't over a real desktop experience. They have either a laptop in a screen iMac or the Mac Pro.

    Now for my new computer. It wasn't available with Windows 7. And I don't buy an extra copy of Windows 7 just because I don't like Metro, wipe everything and reinstall it. Yes, it's true that I upgraded my old computer (which I still use) to Windows 8 as soon as it was available, I wanted to see what it offers. I actually was looking forward to it. But I just didn't like it. But it also didn't annoy me enough to reinstall Windows 7. Upgrading is much easier than downgrading mind you.

    Microsoft didn't force me to upgrade my old computer, but I wanted to because I believed the product could be great. I however didn't like it. The market forced me to buy a new Windows 8 computer, as they don't sell Windows 7 anymore, or only with outdated hardware.

    So yes, Microsoft forced me to upgrade to Windows 8, just because of their sheer market strength and influence on hardware manufacturers.
    05-18-2014 12:42 PM
  2. iamtim's Avatar
    In my years at WPC I've never seen a thread spin so many wheels and run in so many circles as this one, and I've been in some doozy threads.
    05-18-2014 02:10 PM
  3. Chregu's Avatar
    In my years at WPC I've never seen a thread spin so many wheels and run in so many circles as this one, and I've been in some doozy threads.
    To nobody's harm I hope. And the fact that you kept reading shows that there has at least some interesting stuff been said.

    So, what's your opinion? ;-)
    a5cent likes this.
    05-18-2014 02:12 PM
  4. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    I understand people have different preferences. I also understand people have different levels of sophistication and nuance. What I don't understand is how people can "hate" Windows 8 (the original title of the thread) when essentially it gives you the option to use it like Windows 7 or use it more like your Windows tablet or Windows Phone, all the while having a much smoother and quicker start-up with better security.

    I would never expect everyone to voluntarily upgrade to Windows 8, but I still haven't read any compelling arguments about why Windows 8 is objectively worse than older versions of Windows. As a result, I chalk up most of the "hate" to laziness, fanboyism, stereotyping and groupthink.
    05-18-2014 02:33 PM
  5. Chregu's Avatar
    I would never expect everyone to voluntarily upgrade to Windows 8, but I still haven't read any compelling arguments about why Windows 8 is objectively worse than older versions of Windows. As a result, I chalk up most of the "hate" to laziness, fanboyism, stereotyping and groupthink.
    If two things are equally good, it's not laziness to stay with the first thing instead of having something that feels inconvenient. It's just the logical thing to do.

    When I had an exchange Android phone I really disliked it in the beginning, but after a few hours of using it I really started to appreciate the advantages. I never thought of buying an iPhone, but when I recently bought an iPad - in the way I'm using it it just offers the most - I started really to like iOS. When I installed Ubuntu on my computer because it was required for some programming lectures I took, I felt instantly at home and was happy to explore the things that are different from Windows 7.

    Such a thing never happened to me with Windows 8. I think I'm neither lazy, nor stereotyping, nor do I care about what other think about the tech I use (I think I would have bought an iPad long ago when that was the case, instead of sticking with Windows Phone waiting years and years until Microsoft provides an update that makes Windows Phone great in my opinion, speaking of 8.1), nor am I a fanboy. I don't even know what you mean with that. A Windows 7 fanboy? A Microsoft fanboy? An Apple fanboy? What exactly would such a fanboy be fan of?

    Sometimes it feels that you guys like Windows 8, but as the majority does not you have to defend your feelings and decisions at all costs.

    Edit: And about my first sentence, Windows 8 was worse, much worse. It was terrible. Windows 8.1 is equally good.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-18-2014 02:42 PM
  6. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    Sometimes it feels that you guys like Windows 8, but as the majority does not you have to defend your feelings and decisions at all costs.
    Edit: And about my first sentence, Windows 8 was worse, much worse. It was terrible. Windows 8.1 is equally good.
    Actually 8 was good, 8.1 just made it even better. And actually the majority doesn't hate windows 8. they just have the impression that 8 isn't good because they hear the minority yelling and screaming that 8 isn't good. That's why i'm vocal about it, because it actually is good. I've personally known people who claimed 8 was horrible. When asked why, they have no answers. So I show them how it works, and they like it.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-18-2014 02:53 PM
  7. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    I understand people have different preferences. I also understand people have different levels of sophistication and nuance. What I don't understand is how people can "hate" Windows 8 (the original title of the thread) when essentially it gives you the option to use it like Windows 7 or use it more like your Windows tablet or Windows Phone, all the while having a much smoother and quicker start-up with better security.

    I would never expect everyone to voluntarily upgrade to Windows 8, but I still haven't read any compelling arguments about why Windows 8 is objectively worse than older versions of Windows. As a result, I chalk up most of the "hate" to laziness, fanboyism, stereotyping and groupthink.
    That's because there is none. These people just want to hate, it's in their blood.
    05-18-2014 02:55 PM
  8. Chregu's Avatar
    Actually 8 was good, 8.1 just made it even better. And actually the majority doesn't hate windows 8. they just have the impression that 8 isn't good because they hear the minority yelling and screaming that 8 isn't good. That's why i'm vocal about it, because it actually is good. I've personally known people who claimed 8 was horrible. When asked why, they have no answers. So I show them how it works, and they like it.
    So, based on what are you saying this?

    I could tell you about people who think they are the only ones that are right, and that all the others are wrong and think wrong. You're in a nice company with sects and dictators. All the other people assume that the majority is right, which is called democracy based on education and free opinion.

    But if you think you're the chosen one, good for you, good for you.
    05-18-2014 02:57 PM
  9. Chregu's Avatar
    That's because there is none. These people just want to hate, it's in their blood.
    I can give you tons of reasons why the user experience with Windows 8 was terrible.

    Beginning from the context menu that would pop up on the bottom of the screen instead where the mouse is, to booting to the start menu, to mouse gestures that worked very badly on two screens.

    I had to make a specific "turn of computer" icon, because waiting on the corner of my mainscreen until the side bar appears and then hitting through all the buttons to turn my computer off was just too tedious.

    The settings menu was hidden, the real settings I mean, not the ones that changed the background of the lock screen.

    It was disconnected, it was very bad to use, and it was annoying.

    You guys liked it, you are either power users who know the right shortcut for every function on Windows, or you just didn't mind moving the mouse courser around the screen as if it were a game. Most people are no power users, they work with their computer, they don't learn shortcuts. Most people like to have a convenient solution.

    All of the things I've mentioned were fixed in 8.1.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-18-2014 03:01 PM
  10. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    If two things are equally good, it's not laziness to stay with the first thing instead of having something that feels inconvenient. It's just the logical thing to do.

    When I had an exchange Android phone I really disliked it in the beginning, but after a few hours of using it I really started to appreciate the advantages. I never thought of buying an iPhone, but when I recently bought an iPad - in the way I'm using it it just offers the most - I started really to like iOS. When I installed Ubuntu on my computer because it was required for some programming lectures I took, I felt instantly at home and was happy to explore the things that are different from Windows 7.

    Such a thing never happened to me with Windows 8. I think I'm neither lazy, nor stereotyping, nor do I care about what other think about the tech I use (I think I would have bought an iPad long ago when that was the case, instead of sticking with Windows Phone waiting years and years until Microsoft provides an update that makes Windows Phone great in my opinion, speaking of 8.1), nor am I a fanboy. I don't even know what you mean with that. A Windows 7 fanboy? A Microsoft fanboy? An Apple fanboy? What exactly would such a fanboy be fan of?

    Sometimes it feels that you guys like Windows 8, but as the majority does not you have to defend your feelings and decisions at all costs.

    Edit: And about my first sentence, Windows 8 was worse, much worse. It was terrible. Windows 8.1 is equally good.
    I wasn't responding to your particular posts. You obviously have a more nuanced view of things. The original thread question was why do people "hate" Windows 8? You only hate something if it is a lot worse than the alternatives. I haven't seen any good arguments to "hate" Windows 8. Once again, my position is clear. If people don't want to upgrade because it doesn't provide them with additional benefit, then more power to them. However, I haven't read a single compelling argument, including yours, that evidences Windows 8 as an inferior OS and therefore subject to hate. The fanboys I'm talking about are actually "hateboys" because there are a ton of people running around that hate everything Microsoft, or everything Apple, and so on. I'm not including you in that group so no need to get frosted.
    Chregu and a5cent like this.
    05-18-2014 03:05 PM
  11. Chregu's Avatar
    I wasn't responding to your particular posts. You obviously have a more nuanced view of things. The original thread question was why do people "hate" Windows 8? You only hate something if it is a lot worse than the alternatives. I haven't seen any good arguments to "hate" Windows 8. Once again, my position is clear. If people don't want to upgrade because it doesn't provide them with additional benefit, then more power to them. However, I haven't read a single compelling argument, including yours, that evidences Windows 8 as an inferior OS and therefore subject to hate. The fanboys I'm talking about are actually "hateboys" because there are a ton of people running around that hate everything Microsoft, or everything Apple, and so on. I'm not including you in that group so no need to get frosted.
    I think hate is a changeable word in the context of tech.

    When creates being annoyed hate? If you'd ask me this question I would of course say: never. That should just not happen. Hate is a very strong emotion, it's deep, it's a brutish feeling that leads to very bad things. I actually have seldom felt hate for something. I couldn't recall a single instant. Being very mad at something or someone, yes of course, hating someone or something? Not really.

    However, it might well be that I wrote something along the lines of "Personally, I hated Windows 8 because of that and that reason." This has partially to do with how the question was phrased, but also with how the word "hate" is used here. Hateboys and fanboys, it's just something so broadly used when talking about emotions towards tech.

    I of course didn't hate Windows 8 at all. After a few tweaks here and there I could easily live with it. I however still disliked it.

    And sorry about the frosty part, might have to do with my love for ice cream.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-18-2014 03:12 PM
  12. iamtim's Avatar
    So, what's your opinion? ;-)
    As to why people don't like WIndows 8? Well, I can only speak to my experience, which says that people who don't like Windows 8 don't like it because they're hidebound and it's different than Windows 7.

    To wit, a buddy of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8. "Ugh," he cried, "why did they do this? Why did they make it so different?" Before he did anything else he had installed a 3rd party Start Menu and tweaked the registry to boot straight to the desktop and disable the ModernUI completely. Of course, when update 1 and WIndows 8.1 came out he couldn't get them because he'd disabled the Store and so after a while his system was crap.

    He got his wife a Windows 8 laptop. "Wow," she said, "this is different." He quickly installed a 3rd party Start Menu and set it up like his.

    They both say they hate Windows 8.

    Everyone else I know who actually uses Windows 8 loves it.

    *shrug*
    Chregu, anon(5445874) and a5cent like this.
    05-18-2014 03:14 PM
  13. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    I can give you tons of reasons why the user experience with Windows 8 was terrible.

    Beginning from the context menu that would pop up on the bottom of the screen instead where the mouse is, to booting to the start menu, to mouse gestures that worked very badly on two screens.

    I had to make a specific "turn of computer" icon, because waiting on the corner of my mainscreen until the side bar appears and then hitting through all the buttons to turn my computer off was just too tedious.

    The settings menu was hidden, the real settings I mean, not the ones that changed the background of the lock screen.

    It was disconnected, it was very bad to use, and it was annoying.

    You guys liked it, you are either power users who know the right shortcut for every function on Windows, or you just didn't mind moving the mouse courser around the screen as if it were a game. Most people are no power users, they work with their computer, they don't learn shortcuts. Most people like to have a convenient solution.

    All of the things I've mentioned were fixed in 8.1.
    I'm sorry, but you miss read what i wrote. I quoted that bloke and bolded the part I was responding about. This is part of the problem is people just don't read. And even if we were just comparing 8 to 8.1, those items you list are great, but they didn't make 8 bad.
    05-18-2014 03:23 PM
  14. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    As to why people don't like WIndows 8? Well, I can only speak to my experience, which says that people who don't like Windows 8 don't like it because they're hidebound and it's different than Windows 7.

    To wit, a buddy of mine got a new laptop with Windows 8. "Ugh," he cried, "why did they do this? Why did they make it so different?" Before he did anything else he had installed a 3rd party Start Menu and tweaked the registry to boot straight to the desktop and disable the ModernUI completely. Of course, when update 1 and WIndows 8.1 came out he couldn't get them because he'd disabled the Store and so after a while his system was crap.

    He got his wife a Windows 8 laptop. "Wow," she said, "this is different." He quickly installed a 3rd party Start Menu and set it up like his.

    They both say they hate Windows 8.

    Everyone else I know who actually uses Windows 8 loves it.

    *shrug*
    I think this is one of the guys who was posting in this thread.
    05-18-2014 03:25 PM
  15. iamtim's Avatar
    I think this is one of the guys who was posting in this thread.
    The thing is... too many people don't understand that at its base, Windows 8 *IS* Windows 7, but with a Start Screen instead of a Start Menu. And if you take some time to get used to the Start Screen, you'll probably discover it to be preferable to the Start Menu. I don't remember who, but one of the posters above mentioned a UI design ideology which states that bigger UI elements are easier and quicker to use... and that's absolutely true.

    At work, I'm an SQL/SharePoint/Office/LAMP developer. I run Windows 8.1 with two monitors. I run my system at work pretty much as a Windows 7 desktop machine; I've turned off the Charms bar, I have Modern apps on the taskbar, I've uninstalled as many of the Modern UI apps as the system will allow me (some of them, like OneDrive, Settings, Photos, and... one or two others can't be uninstalled) and installed all the desktop apps I need. Desktop Skype, Lync, Acrobat Reader, I run IE in desktop mode, no Modern UI apps run on my machine (except Settings - because I like that better than the Control Panel and the Start Screen). And it's faster, more reliable, and easier to use than any system I've used to date (including the iMac I used, running Windows 7 via Boot Camp).

    At home I use a laptop as my main machine. It's setup the same, except I use more Modern UI apps... Mail, Calendar, OneNote, IE in Modern UI mode, Reader for PDFs, because it works well and it makes sense on my single screen. The whole "OMG MODERN UI APPS WORK HORRIBLE WITH KEYBOARD AND MOUSE AND ARE FOR TOUCH ONLY" complaint is exceedingly, just... wrong. Especially now with Windows 8.1.

    Most of the hate you see against Windows 8 is done by internet blogger pundits looking for clicks.
    BobLobIaw, Chregu, a5cent and 3 others like this.
    05-18-2014 03:40 PM
  16. Chregu's Avatar
    The thing is... too many people don't understand that at its base, Windows 8 *IS* Windows 7, but with a Start Screen instead of a Start Menu. And if you take some time to get used to the Start Screen, you'll probably discover it to be preferable to the Start Menu. I don't remember who, but one of the posters above mentioned a UI design ideology which states that bigger UI elements are easier and quicker to use... and that's absolutely true.

    At work, I'm an SQL/SharePoint/Office/LAMP developer. I run Windows 8.1 with two monitors. I run my system at work pretty much as a Windows 7 desktop machine; I've turned off the Charms bar, I have Modern apps on the taskbar, I've uninstalled as many of the Modern UI apps as the system will allow me (some of them, like OneDrive, Settings, Photos, and... one or two others can't be uninstalled) and installed all the desktop apps I need. Desktop Skype, Lync, Acrobat Reader, I run IE in desktop mode, no Modern UI apps run on my machine (except Settings - because I like that better than the Control Panel and the Start Screen). And it's faster, more reliable, and easier to use than any system I've used to date (including the iMac I used, running Windows 7 via Boot Camp).

    At home I use a laptop as my main machine. It's setup the same, except I use more Modern UI apps... Mail, Calendar, OneNote, IE in Modern UI mode, Reader for PDFs, because it works well and it makes sense on my single screen. The whole "OMG MODERN UI APPS WORK HORRIBLE WITH KEYBOARD AND MOUSE AND ARE FOR TOUCH ONLY" complaint is exceedingly, just... wrong. Especially now with Windows 8.1.
    What you write here is exactly what I tried to describe of how I think Windows 8.1 should be used. What I think is the strength of Windows 8.1.

    It offers the choice, it offers the possibilities to use it as a desktop machine on multiple big screens, and to use it with metro on smaller screens like laptops and tablets.

    I also think that this choice wasn't there with Windows 8. And that's why I didn't like it. Next to the things I wrote down above of course.
    05-18-2014 03:47 PM
  17. iamtim's Avatar
    I also think that this choice wasn't there with Windows 8.
    It was, just not as comprehensively. I've been running Windows 8 at work and at home since it was released ("Hey, boss, can I upgrade to Windows 8?" I asked. "Sure," he said, "as long as you pay for the upgrade." He didn't know that Microsoft was running a $15 upgrade special, LOL.) Windows 8.1 made it better, but it was largely the same in Windows 8. I mean... I had to click the Desktop tile to get to the Desktop when the system booted, I had to manage Modern UI apps using the left-hand App Bar instead of the Task Bar (no big deal since I don't run Modern UI apps much at work), and I had to drag down with the mouse instead of clicking an X to close an app, but that's small potatoes. The base of the system and the way it works is largely the same between Windows 8 and Windows 8.1.
    05-18-2014 04:02 PM
  18. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    OP wrote: "Been a while since the 8.1 update and a surprising lot on the internet still seen to have it out for the OS."

    I think that even if the "hate" for Windows 8 was legitimate (which I don't think it was) we are now talking about the continued "hate" for Windows 8.1.

    Chegru's observations regarding the improvements in 8.1 actually reinforce the argument that the remaining internet "hate" towards Windows 8.1 is misplaced.

    I think a lot of the negative opinions toward Windows 8 and 8.1 are not along the lines of an extra swipe or click or keystroke. I am reminded of the video the guy posted where he put his aging father in front of a Windows 8 screen and told him nothing and the guy didn't know what to do. The video maker then concluded that Windows 8 sucked and a bunch of people who watched the video then thought it sucked and told everyone else that it sucked. To that extent, much of the dislike is reputational, not operational. Most people I know that use Windows 8 (or now 8.1) actually like it and don't understand why it has a bad reputation. Some people, like Chegru, don't like it because of annoying aspects. Nothing wrong with that. I just think most people's criticisms are lame, especially those who don't even use it.

    Personally, I don't even have strong feelings about it. I use Windows 7 at work and Windows 8.1 at home and on my tablet. Both of them are fine for me even though I could certainly identify improvements that need to be made. I just think the overall "hate" toward the OS is lame and is really a testament to the shortcomings of people and their bad tendencies.
    link68759, Chregu and a5cent like this.
    05-18-2014 04:38 PM
  19. Everard Onggon's Avatar
    I have a Windows 8.1 on my touchscreen laptop. Its been 5 months that I'm using the Windows 8 OS, and I'm somewhat adjusted to it.
    I think the only mistake of Microsoft in Windows 8 OS is that they make one single OS for Desktop and Tablet devices.
    Although the screen size of both devices is almost the same, but the user experience for tablet and desktop is still different. Apps for tablet should be touch friendly, and apps for desktop should be keyboard and mouse friendly. That is where Windows 8 failed that is why they considered the desktop user experience on their Windows 8.1 release.
    On my own opinion, I think they should get rid of the Start Screen for desktop devices. And instead, if they really want the retain the Metro Style signature of Windows 8, they should just implement it with the start menu just like the image below:

    startmenureviverfull.png
    05-18-2014 09:47 PM
  20. ShreyansShah's Avatar
    I have a Windows 8.1 on my touchscreen laptop. Its been 5 months that I'm using the Windows 8 OS, and I'm somewhat adjusted to it.
    I think the only mistake of Microsoft in Windows 8 OS is that they make one single OS for Desktop and Tablet devices.
    Although the screen size of both devices is almost the same, but the user experience for tablet and desktop is still different. Apps for tablet should be touch friendly, and apps for desktop should be keyboard and mouse friendly. That is where Windows 8 failed that is why they considered the desktop user experience on their Windows 8.1 release.
    On my own opinion, I think they should get rid of the Start Screen for desktop devices. And instead, if they really want the retain the Metro Style signature of Windows 8, they should just implement it with the start menu just like the image below:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    i am quite not agree with this.
    i am using win 8 since long on my macbook, and i am really comfortable with that. apps are quite well mouse friendly. and, even after the update, i havenot brought back the start menu. i dont need it anymore. i am used to the start screen now. i havenot tried bringing start menu, just i never felt required anymore.
    05-19-2014 01:46 PM
  21. JamesPTao's Avatar
    Most of those 10 million apps are either complete garbage or full of malware, spyware or viruses.
    I think you are confusing WP with androids play store!
    05-20-2014 07:25 PM
  22. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    I think you are confusing WP with androids play store!
    If you are going to come into a conversation this late, perhaps you should quote the other relevant parts. I've had thousands of conversations since that post. I don't even know what it's referring to.
    05-20-2014 09:54 PM
  23. JamesPTao's Avatar
    i Should probably post from my laptop, not my phone. It only allows me to choose one quote to comment on and doesn't give the info from where in the thread it came from as the conversation expands. If I jumped the gun on your statement sorry. It appeared you were referring to metro apps as full of malware apps and garbage. If that was accurate I couldn't disagree more. If that is not an inaccurate summery. I apologize.
    05-21-2014 03:00 AM
  24. anon(5445874)'s Avatar
    i Should probably post from my laptop, not my phone. It only allows me to choose one quote to comment on and doesn't give the info from where in the thread it came from as the conversation expands. If I jumped the gun on your statement sorry. It appeared you were referring to metro apps as full of malware apps and garbage. If that was accurate I couldn't disagree more. If that is not an inaccurate summery. I apologize.
    I believe you got it backwards. I was saying metro apps are better, the old desktop apps that you randomly download from sites like downloads.com are full of garbage. There's not even any kind of approval process.
    05-21-2014 03:24 AM
  25. JamesPTao's Avatar
    I believe you got it backwards. I was saying metro apps are better, the old desktop apps that you randomly download from sites like downloads.com are full of garbage. There's not even any kind of approval process.
    Sorry, should have read it Better and not jumped right in.
    05-21-2014 07:46 AM
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