Lumia 810 - EOL - What about Firmware updates?

[b23h]

I would like to get a Windows 8 tablet, not that RT $%&#, and resolving how I feel about the platform is one of the things that's holding me back. What some readers fail to understand is MSFT has always done something in the past to "justifiably shaft" users. I'm no different than people here who would like updates, especially since they plunked down the cash they did for a capable device that fit their needs. I betcha if this was the 920 that got EOL'ed heads would roll. I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more attention.

But I don't see that Microsoft was responsible for making the EOL decision on the 810. I have full expectation that they had nothing to do with it and are not responsible for that decision. It's all about T-Mobile. Will T-Mobile and Nokia work together to provide firmware updates with reasonable rapidity and for a reasonable amount of time. I am disgusted with the responses over on the T-Mobile site by the resident losers and the inability of T-Mobile to actually step up to the plate and specify what their plans are. "We will support the 810" is not exactly a detailed or thorough response.

Why is customer service so pathetically poor?

 

[MSFTisMIA]

But I don't see that Microsoft was responsible for making the EOL decision on the 810. I have full expectation that they had nothing to do with it and are not responsible for that decision. It's all about T-Mobile. Will T-Mobile and Nokia work together to provide firmware updates with reasonable rapidity and for a reasonable amount of time. I am disgusted with the responses over on the T-Mobile site by the resident losers and the inability of T-Mobile to actually step up to the plate and specify what their plans are. "We will support the 810" is not exactly a detailed or thorough response.

Why is customer service so pathetically poor?

I agree in that I don't think MSFT had anything directly to do with the 810 getting shafted. This is the problem with custom variants though...if the initial customer (the carrier) doesn't get enough sales from a unit, they will drop it and not put any resources into getting updates into it. That's why Apple, Samsung with the Galaxy, and finally HTC with the One Series (and the 8X) are pushing one model across carriers with very little changes. Nokia couldn't do that so they sold their soul to AT&T to catch up and that's why for the near future you will see the flagship WP8 devices be exclusive with them first. That leaves T-Mobile to get scraps, which apparently is now fine with them. They can push the idea of "bringing your own phone", sell cheap phones, and go feeding off the iBreast almost as hard as Sprint does.

In this case, it is on T-Mobile. I usually give them credit for their device support, but they know how many 810s got sold. It's a low enough number for them to shaft it. I'd like to think we will still get updates, but it may be the better version of how AT&T handled WP7....only the major ones, instead of being stuck on the firmware you currently have.

It is still a $%&#?! situation for those who bought the 810. I get the sense now with T-Mobile is the best ways to handle them are to either buy a "popular phone" from them or your bring you own device. Anything else is at the mercy of the overall sales of that phone, support wise..

 

[MSFTisMIA]

b23h, you know what MSFT or Nokia could do? Give us the opportunity to update the 810 manually at our own risk.

This was the one thing I miss with Zune and WP7. AT&T hardly EVER updates their WP7 model, but at least once the updates were available on the servers we could go at it. I think that if there was a way for us to get those updates, that would be good. Clearly, we cannot trust US carriers to provide support directly for "unpopular devices" because they're in the business to make cash.

 

[b23h]

we finally got a T-Mobile representative on the thread over on T-Mobile's forum. Their answer is of course not an answer at all.

tmo_lauren wrote:

Feedback is always appreciated We typically allow this to be a user powered forums, I apologize if I missed any sections specifically requesting a response from an employee.

I edited your previous comment regarding another user as I asked you to refrain from getting personal, please be more mindful of this going forward. I know tensions are a little high, but this is imperative

As for your question, we always work with our vendors, Nokia included, to provide updates for firmware and operating systems. However, that specific type of information is not available at this time. If and when any information does become available, T-Force is more than happy to share this with our community here.


-Lauren​

"that specific type of information is not available at this time. If and when any information does become available, T-Force is more than happy to share this with our community here"

Lauren you do realize that is not an answer, and all that does is infuriate your customers and alienate them from your company and brand. Telling people what they can expect is a common courtesy. Hiding behind a curtain saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." is a flawed style of customer service. Giving information to customers, involving them with your company creates brand loyalty. Statement like the one you just gave does not answer wizkids dilemma as to if he should hand in his phone as he is still in the fourteen day period. Statements like the one you gave simply destroy brand loyalty.

I suggest that you try to push up your chain of command the idea that T-Mobile should not follow industry standards for customer service. Your industry is widely despised given AT&T's position on the top ten hated list. Your company should embrace an open and transparent method of customer service involving and engaging your customers as much as possible.

This type of standard "we don't know, maybe we'll tell you later" represents a "customer recovery" failure and while may be the standard response, is a response that indicates T-Mobile's failure to create an appropriate customer service paradigm.

 

[b23h]

I am of course dead serious about my comments about customer service. Customer service is often horrible, done by overworked and underpaid peons operating under a flawed customer service paradigm and policy. It's saddening for me to see the number of companies that have a customer service regime that be described as "amateurish."

 

[MSFTisMIA]

See, honestly, the front line people at T-Mobile won't know $%#! until the day off an announcement. It has ALWAYS been like that with them.

It ultimately is a matter of numbers. At MSFT, engineers are trying to refine WP8 and are working on the next version of the OS. Nokia is working on new phones and providing support to other models. If T-Mobile isn't buying more 810s, what resources should Nokia have to pump into giving us updates? Clearly, the people who negotiated the contract between Nokia and T-Mobile know this too. Remember, this is the same T-Mobile trying to merge with MetroPCS, and the same T-Mobile that may get sold off by its parent company who has been crying that they bleed money in the US all the time.

Should all that matter to customers? No, but it affects them when a product they buy so much money drops off the radar because it didn't meet T-Mobile's sales forecast. This is why 810 users are so skeptical of T-Mobile and are hopeful that Nokia can still push out updates for the phone. It's sad to hope for the best and prepare for the worst because there is precedent.

 

[jgbstetson]

I am of course dead serious about my comments about customer service. Customer service is often horrible, done by overworked and underpaid peons operating under a flawed customer service paradigm and policy. It's saddening for me to see the number of companies that have a customer service regime that be described as "amateurish."

that's the typical Tmo response, as I said in the support forum. I'm pretty confident we're going to get burned on updates. But here is what I would like to see happen: Tmo needs to completely shed the carrier branded handset bull****. Do it as much as possible. No carrier bloatware, skins: all of it. Gone. That way, the manufacturer can provide updates that require very little or no tweaking.
That would increase customer satisfaction, decrease costs, and please the manufacturers too, I'm sure.

And if they get the catwalk, I think they have a big opportunity to do just that. I really dislike American carriers because of all the bureaucracy, hidden costs, and exclusives. The first wireless company that can shed all this will get my money. T-Mobile, sadly, is in the lead.

 

[b23h]

that's the typical Tmo response, as I said in the support forum. I'm pretty confident we're going to get burned on updates. But here is what I would like to see happen: Tmo needs to completely shed the carrier branded handset bull****. Do it as much as possible. No carrier bloatware, skins: all of it. Gone. That way, the manufacturer can provide updates that require very little or no tweaking.
That would increase customer satisfaction, decrease costs, and please the manufacturers too, I'm sure.

And if they get the catwalk, I think they have a big opportunity to do just that. I really dislike American carriers because of all the bureaucracy, hidden costs, and exclusives. The first wireless company that can shed all this will get my money. T-Mobile, sadly, is in the lead.

that may work to some extent, but If I were Klingon, I would say the cell phone companies lack honor. The internal culture and policy is to hide behind "liability concern" and NDA's. But I expect those concerns are overblown. I think tech companies do need to communicate with their customers in a much more transparent fashion. They have flipped best practice customer service on it's head and it destroys their relationship with their customers.

 

[waazzupppp]

Hey b23h, it's your friendly agitator from the T-Mo Forum... Sorry to be such a pest over there, but everyone is getting worked up over questions that T-Mobile didn't have any answers to - yet... So let's clarify the official status of the device and the future of updates for the Lumia 810 right now as told to me by T-Mobile and Nokia directly...

Yes, the 810 is no longer in production for T-Mobile. T-Mobile stopped ordering the device due to the release of the 521 as an entry level device (replacing the 710) and the incoming "9xx" series phone that will be the replacement for the 810. They were not able to give me a model number as of yet as the device is in testing now, but it will probably be that shiny metal one that everyone has been seeing. This does not mean that T-Mobile will not sell the phone again, but for now, we have to consider it gone from inventory and only sell-off stock is being sold at this point. Again, this was confirmed by a friend at T-Mobile marketing and my buddy in Nokia marketing.

Now for the bigger question that everyone had - Firmware updates... So far this year, Nokia has pushed out 3 updates for the 810, one of which passed T-Mobile QA (this should have been the January Portico release). The next one did not for some reason or another. I assume the 2nd one failed due to the radio issue that the update caused in the 920's that it was pushed to. The fixed was released about a month ago and is currently in testing at T-Mobile and should be released within a few weeks if it passes testing. If it does not, they will continue developing code for the 810/820 series devices through July of 2014.

That said, this does not mean that Blue will come to the 810. This does not mean that we will see the storage feature. This does not mean that we will see Data Sense... All they know is that support for the device will continue to develop updates until that July 2014 date.

Now, as far as T-Mobile's reaction to this topic... I understand why they are being so guarded. Nokia isn't giving out much information because they don't want it to appear that their phones need the updates for any reason. For the most part, they don't, but some people are having issues that are pretty major and @NokiaCareUS is pretty good about getting them addressed. The majority of people have no idea what an update for their phone does. They just know when it gets slow and sluggish, they call in and tech support tells them to master rest their phone. It becomes less slow and sluggish for a while and then they do it all again. When the phone says there's an update, they hit ok and it does it. For people like us, a master reset isn't the answer, it's fixing the software to make it work correctly eliminating the need for that reset.

We're among a select group that is passionate about this phone, me on the defensive side, you on the wanting to know side... I don't see what T-Mobile is doing as poor customer service, but more as they just don't know what to tell someone that knows more about the phone than they do. All the carriers have the same problem, some users just know the devices better than they do. Every carrier has the same issue with users wanting the latest and greatest software for their device - but not many devices go EOL in 6 months - so this is a tough one for them to deal with.

Anyways, hopefully you can take heart in the fact that Nokia plans on issuing updates for the next 14 months on the 810 and they will continue to bring what features they can to the phone. I've encouraged them to get Nokia Xpress available for all (it's a data compressing browser option for the beta users) but even that won't make not having Data Sense better. As far as other features go, I will keep anyone that wants to know in the loop about the betas/testing/information that I can get via the developers channels, marketing contacts and friends.

PS - Did T-Mo destroy all the negative posts in the forums there? I can't find the original thread to post this info in over there?

 

[b23h]

I am not a big forum person, this last few weeks have been the most writing I've done. So I don't really know what usually happens when a thread is closed. I'll explain. The thread over on the T-Mobile site about the issue of continued firmware support had a few of us, including some from this site asking questions and discussing this issue. However the thread attracted a couple of local T-Mobile gadflies that pretty much repeatedly harassed the sh*t out of me and some of the co-posters. They were super persistent and pretty much just perseverated that same stuff time and again. We'd tell them we wanted a response from a T-Mobile employees, not the local gadflies, but that did nothing, they still just repeated the same useless stuff....

Anyway around the time of the "answer" by the T-Mobile employee, she warned us that she was contemplating closing the thread. To me the local gadflies seemed to have a fair amount of latitude for their behavior, and the rest of us, not so much,

So now the thread is gone. I thought closing a thread meant no more postings, that the thread is considered finished, but it remains up. However this thread is gone. Is that typical??

 

[MSFTisMIA]

@b23h, on any forum, once the thread is closed, that's it. You can only read it, that is, if the link is still up. Once a thread is closed, no more comments are allowed.

@waazzupppp, thanks for the heads up. Very informative. As informed 810 users, we can only,hope Nokia will push through updates...but without any way for us to manually update the phone, we're screwed. We will see what happens, but I don't think this will end well.

 

[metalchick719]

I am not a big forum person, this last few weeks have been the most writing I've done. So I don't really know what usually happens when a thread is closed. I'll explain. The thread over on the T-Mobile site about the issue of continued firmware support had a few of us, including some from this site asking questions and discussing this issue. However the thread attracted a couple of local T-Mobile gadflies that pretty much repeatedly harassed the sh*t out of me and some of the co-posters. They were super persistent and pretty much just perseverated that same stuff time and again. We'd tell them we wanted a response from a T-Mobile employees, not the local gadflies, but that did nothing, they still just repeated the same useless stuff....

Anyway around the time of the "answer" by the T-Mobile employee, she warned us that she was contemplating closing the thread. To me the local gadflies seemed to have a fair amount of latitude for their behavior, and the rest of us, not so much,

So now the thread is gone. I thought closing a thread meant no more postings, that the thread is considered finished, but it remains up. However this thread is gone. Is that typical??

That's pretty distressing that the thread was deleted. However, as a person who has owned and run and helped to run forums, once a thread is gone, it's gone. Essentially, it means "discussion over," which sucks in this particular case because it was a fair concern by you and other aggrieved 810 owners.

 

[jgbstetson]

@b23h, on any forum, once the thread is closed, that's it. You can only read it, that is, if the link is still up. Once a thread is closed, no more comments are allowed.

@waazzupppp, thanks for the heads up. Very informative. As informed 810 users, we can only,hope Nokia will push through updates...but without any way for us to manually update the phone, we're screwed. We will see what happens, but I don't think this will end well.

I have bad feeling about this too. As a smartphone user, I've been left out of updates far too many times. It has me seriously considering buying an unlocked 720, 1700 mHz be damned.

 

[b23h]

Hey b23h, it's your friendly agitator from the T-Mo Forum...

Now for the bigger question that everyone had - Firmware updates... So far this year, Nokia has pushed out 3 updates for the 810, one of which passed T-Mobile QA (this should have been the January Portico release). The next one did not for some reason or another. I assume the 2nd one failed due to the radio issue that the update caused in the 920's that it was pushed to. The fixed was released about a month ago and is currently in testing at T-Mobile and should be released within a few weeks if it passes testing. If it does not, they will continue developing code for the 810/820 series devices through July of 2014.

That said, this does not mean that Blue will come to the 810. This does not mean that we will see the storage feature. This does not mean that we will see Data Sense... All they know is that support for the device will continue to develop updates until that July 2014 date.


I don't see what T-Mobile is doing as poor customer service, but more as they just don't know what to tell someone that knows more about the phone than they do.

....but not many devices go EOL in 6 months - so this is a tough one for them to deal with.

Anyways, hopefully you can take heart in the fact that Nokia plans on issuing updates for the next 14 months on the 810 and they will continue to bring what features they can to the phone. I've encouraged them to get Nokia Xpress available for all (it's a data compressing browser option for the beta users) but even that won't make not having Data Sense better. As far as other features go, I will keep anyone that wants to know in the loop about the betas/testing/information that I can get via the developers channels, marketing contacts and friends.

PS - Did T-Mo destroy all the negative posts in the forums there? I can't find the original thread to post this info in over there?

Howdy!

Thanks for the reply. You know what good customer service is, it's a statement like you made "Nokia plans on issuing updates for the next 14 months on the 810 and they will continue to bring what features they can to the phone." In the thread there on the site I modeled a potential statement somewhat similar to that. In behavior modification modeling means giving a mock up answer. That is all T-Mobile really needs to do in order to satisfy a lot of customers. Clear and direct communication with customers instead of hiding behind "we don't know when or if, but will get back to you on that." Such statements are absurd. People who do quality customer service would specify "I will research the issue and give you an answer by X time."

So far great. However lets go back to the "clear and direct" part of the statement you made. My question is this, how can Nokia and implicitly T-Mobile plan on issuing updates for the next 14 months and how could that not include the "Storage Check" feature which should be in testing now and ready for release at a moments notice, and secondarily how can firmware support for the next fourteen months not include Blue/8.1 which is due later this summer.

I am pretty blunt at times. Like I said on the T-Mobile site, a competent organization would know that 810 customers are interested in two things primarily (Storage Check & Blue). As I understand Data Sense, it is not so useful for accounts on T-Mobile. However it would be a massive act of self-deception for T-Mobile to think that not pushing out Storage Check won't result in a lot of SUPER PISSED OFF 810 owners. The wailing and gnashing of teeth will make the cats howl and keep all of us up all night. I'm not quite sure if I am joking there.

Again, a competent organization should know that feature is critical.

So not necessarily getting Storage Check or Blue really makes me wonder what type of updating will occur. A self evident contradiction like that throws any good will that one made with a customer by saying we will support the phone for the next fourteen months, RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW.

I don't think basic premises of customer service is some sort of alien language that we don't know how to translate. These companies we commonly deal with should be professionals. Especially in the higher ranks. I expect competent customer service paradigms, and perhaps some work necessary in keeping "front line" workers informed, engaged, and not burned out. However that's not what I am perceiving, and I tend to think that the middle and upper management is to blame for adopting an unnecessarily obscure and arms length method of communication with one's customers. Given it is my believe that evil of all sorts arises from an easy and lax self-rationalization, I expect that the "please ignore the man behind the curtain" clotted and obscure form of communication is due to the rationalization that liability and NDA's are why they think they need to act like that. I expect that rationalization is overstated, and that many companies have simply fallen into a habit of what ends up being poor customer service. My case in point is AT&T's perch in the top hated companies in the US. I expect T-Mobile is somewhere fairly high up on that list as well.

Change your customer service paradigm, and perhaps you can keep customers. It's not just about selling them more tablets and devices so that it is a pain to switch.... As someone stated on the thread; "they felt like a chump." Treat your customers like they matter and keep them involved and satisfied with your brand is so much superior than hoping it is difficult for your customers to switch carriers..... That should be obvious but it clearly isn't.

U.S. wireless carriers seek alternatives as phone growth slows | Reuters

"As you have more devices per individual and more per family and as the devices get more complex, it's more of a hassle to switch (carriers)," Hesse told Reuters in an interview.

I appreciate your response and think that T-Mobile would be best served with being clear about their intent (not only on the 810), but as you can see the qualifications you stated makes the policy pronouncement less than valuable. It is important that the customer not think they are being deceived or manipulated. I am not saying that about you, however if T-Mobile was to make the statement as you've put it, people would justly view it with jaundice.

To use your basic premise, if I was T-Mobile I would release a statement stating that Storage Check and Blue will be enabled for the phone, and that further updates as necessary to ensure correct functioning will be supported for the next fourteen months. I think that would make the vast majority of us happy. Not enabling Storage Check in the short term and not allowing for support of the upcoming Blue later this summer will make a lot of 810 owners justly disgusted with T-Mobile.

thanks again for your response....

 

[b23h]

That's pretty distressing that the thread was deleted. However, as a person who has owned and run and helped to run forums, once a thread is gone, it's gone. Essentially, it means "discussion over," which sucks in this particular case because it was a fair concern by you and other aggrieved 810 owners.

yea it looks like's it's deleted. I never really liked arbitrary behavior, and it is so common. Deleting a thread like that is like throwing away someone's ballot. You're vote's irrelevant! I really don't think they had appropriate cause to delete, but I can bet they had motive. I am somewhat known for my analysis, I am usually very direct and perceive the big picture well. I expect I analyzed their customer service in a way that someone not used to argumentation and debate would appreciate. So yea, I do wonder why they didn't just close the thread rather than delete it.

 

[b23h]

Now, as far as T-Mobile's reaction to this topic... I understand why they are being so guarded. Nokia isn't giving out much information because they don't want it to appear that their phones need the updates for any reason. For the most part, they don't, but some people are having issues that are pretty major and @NokiaCareUS is pretty good about getting them addressed. The majority of people have no idea what an update for their phone does. They just know when it gets slow and sluggish, they call in and tech support tells them to master rest their phone. It becomes less slow and sluggish for a while and then they do it all again. When the phone says there's an update, they hit ok and it does it. For people like us, a master reset isn't the answer, it's fixing the software to make it work correctly eliminating the need for that reset.

If that is in fact the reason that Nokia "isn't giving out much information" then I think they are making a huge blunder. I think that idea that only us enthusiasts are aware that updating a phone's OS or programs can fix issues (and sometimes create them) is a overstatement of high order. Given how prevalent computers are and chatter about Android fragmentation, I think the wider public is a lot more aware of updates than that statement would suggest.

ACLU Asks FTC to Probe 'Dangerous' Android Bugs | News & Opinion | PCMag.com

Updating the OS whether WP or Android is well known to most and I expect that it is going to develop into a battlefield, perhaps even to the point of being legislated in some fashion.

In reality a valuable differentiation for Nokia is actually the speed at which they do update the phone. That is a very valuable idea in these circumstances. That idea, if MS does it right is, at least while Google is fiddling about, a very important factor in favor of Windows Phone.

Second I think that if a company was serious about brand loyalty the would try to minimize instructions to reset the phone. I expect the typical customer finds that irritating.

I am not trying to work your nerve. I am just using what you've said as an potential example. If a company makes a statement that people can see the contradictions in, you lose customer loyalty. Ethical, clear and direct communication is vital for customer loyalty.

Again, not about you. You are not a company spokesperson with writers and tech people supporting you. I appreciate the news, I'm just giving an example.

 

[dainla]

This does not mean that we will see the storage feature.

Completely unacceptable.

As is not fixing the music problems.

Both, completely unacceptable. I have over 3GB in the other storage now. That means I don't have the phone I purchased. It means I have a phone with under 5GB of storage. I bought one with 8GB.

I also have 10 or so of each song. That's also not the phone I purchased.

But that's the phone I got and it needs to be fixed.

 

[MSFTisMIA]

See, all the stuff in the thread here highlights the bad side of the phone business. Personally, as much as like the 810, the 820 series was a mistake. If Nokia was going to do the 820 series justice, they should have just picked the 820 design and combined it with the 822's bigger battery and 16GB onboard storage. Nokia could get away with the 620, 720, 820, and 920 easily to cover all price points. Split the lines as we see here with the 720 + 920 being focused on design, and the 820 + 620 on storage and affordability. That way, you don't make phones like the 520 and 810 that may get buried on a carrier and screw those users. There is NO guarantee that T-Mobile won't EOL the 521 soon either if that doesn't sell. Carriers are always looking for the next big seller so that they add more customers.

I used to like T-Mobile for 2 reasons - price and customer service. Figures my luck that after not wanting to bother with unlocked phones anymore knowing I will be in an area with good T-Mobile service (NYC) that I buy a phone that gets EOL'ed quickly. No carrier here cares about consumers. It is all about the consumers' accounts.

What's even sadder is other WP8 users just not getting where us 810 users are coming from. We all know they'd never EOL the 920, and T-Mobile will still carry the 8X, albeit in smaller quantities because if they kill that off to quick, it will make waves. Guess the 810 doesn't count, and neither do its users...

 

[Guzzler3]

Wait a sec.... after reading all the above, the summary is:

T-mo is still testing the new firmware's from Nokia, and will push out ones that pass till July 2014. (good).
T-mo is saying we may NOT get "Storage Check" and "Blue" and "Data Sense" (bad).

This doesn't make any sense.

1. New firmware from Nokia, should enable the use of the app "Storage Check". I have it currently installed and it won't run because of the current firmware doesn't have the proper hooks. To keep this feature out, T-mo would have to explicitly tell Nokia not to put the code in any of the future firmware updates (dumb, really dumb idea).
2. "Blue" comes from Microsoft. It's an OS update. One of the selling points of WP8 was that carriers can't block OS updates. This is the problem with Android, which Microsoft didn't want to have to deal with.
3. "Data Sense" - OK, I can understand this one not coming any time soon. It takes back end (T-mo's equipment) support to enable this.

Someone, please tell me I got the summary wrong!

 

[MSFTisMIA]

Wait a sec.... after reading all the above, the summary is:

T-mo is still testing the new firmware's from Nokia, and will push out ones that pass till July 2014. (good).
T-mo is saying we may NOT get "Storage Check" and "Blue" and "Data Sense" (bad).

This doesn't make any sense.

Someone, please tell me I got the summary wrong!

No, you got it right. Us 810 users are watching this very closely because our gut says that we will get screwed because T-Mo will be too busy selling Galaxy S4s, a few HTC Ones, a few Catwalks, and too many Apples to push updates out for a phone they overpriced at launch and EOL'ed in 6 months.