Win 10 in Tablet mode is horrible

swanlee

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Yea it's funny if they think Win 8.1 was a flop I guess they don't remember how bad a Flop Win 7 was for tablets or Win xp etc.

NO ONE complained about the GUI experience of Win 8 on tablets what people complained about was shoe horning a Tablet GUI to the Desktop.

So what does MS do? Shoe horn a Desktop GUI to tablets!!!

And this has already failed for tablets for the past decade.
 

jdballard

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To me the problem is the cutoff in screen size. From my understanding, tablets < 8" will run like Windows phone (i.e., no desktop) and tablets >= 8" and over will have the desktop.

I think a small tweak would make it perfect: <= 8" should run like Windows phone. To me, my Dell Venue 8 pro should always run like a tablet. It's too small to really be used as a PC with the desktop. I could even see the argument that tablets that are 9" should run without a desktop.

Changing the screen size cutoff might solve the issue of the OP.
 

swanlee

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The cutoff is for Future devices not current ones. Already released 7 inch tablets that are X86 will get the Win 10 version for PC's.

Can you image someone upgrading their HP Stream 7 to Win 10 and having to deal with a taskbar always visible on their 7 inch tablet? That is a nightmare

I have an 8 inch Acer W4 and win 10 is not going anywhere near it until MS gets their crap together and stops nerfing the perfectly good Tablet GUI they had with Win 8.1
 

fragment137

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I feel the taskbar shouldn't be visible in tablet mode. No reason you can't bring it up with a gesture like the Charms used to in 8/8.1... I'm pretty sure you could also create a GUI change for the taskbar in Tablet mode.. maybe make the notification center more prevelent (have it's own icon) along with settings, cortana, start button (of course) and Share. It can stay on the bottom, but I don't understand why it needs to be constantly there.

Tablet mode should be Tablet Mode, not "Desktop-with-a-bigger-start-menu" mode...
 

mrpuny

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Does MS not understand that desktops are going the way of the dinosaur for most consumers? Sure, they jumped the gun on Win 8 by forcing metro on everyone, but that doesn't mean a pure tablet UI was a bad idea, it was just too early & implemented poorly across the board.

Getting stuff outta the way, which charms did, is part of a good tablet UI. Having an always visible task bar on a tablet is retarded.

I think the problem is that Microsoft "understood" that tablets were going to be the future when developing Windows 8, but so far reality isn't cooperating:

Apple Barely Missed On iPad Sales - Business Insider

While this article is specifically talking about the year-to-year decline in iPad sales, it seems that the overall PC market has stabilized and tablet growth has slowed. It's not clear at all now that tablets are going to be the bulk of computing devices going forward, though phones are certainly going to be important. This is absolutely anecdotal, I know, but my wife was using a Mac Mini desktop and an iPad 2. Her mini was long in the tooth, so over the holidays we went looking at computers and she picked out a 13" MacBook Air. She literally hasn't touched the iPad in over a month. Just last night I grabbed the iPad to run the 8.1.3 update and it was completely dead.
(She also has a Lumia 925, so she straddles both ecosystems; it's a shame that the new Dell XPS13 laptop hadn't come out yet, because she might have been interested in that.)
 

mrpuny

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So I have only tried Windows 10 out on a desktop - no touch screen, just keyboard and mouse. At best I can only use it as a "tablet simulator" and I can't really tell how things work with touch, but I have a couple of questions for anyone using it on a touch device.

1. Are the edge swipes pretty much gone or are they there but do different things? The right swipe for charms is gone I guess, but what about the left swipe for the (Modern) app switcher? Is it gone completely or does it bring up the new app switcher interface? What about the top/bottom swipes?

2. I'm a little unclear about whether the taskbar is supposed to hide when in tablet mode. I was just listening to the latest What The Tech podcast this morning, and from what Thurrott said, it sounded like it was supposed to hide when in tablet mode, maybe becoming visible with a bottom edge swipe, though posts in this thread indicate it doesn't. On my desktop, the taskbar remains visible in tablet mode unless I have the taskbar autohide, in which case it consistently hides in both desktop and tablet mode.
 

jdballard

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The cutoff is for Future devices not current ones. Already released 7 inch tablets that are X86 will get the Win 10 version for PC's.

True. I should have said "going forward".

Can you image someone upgrading their HP Stream 7 to Win 10 and having to deal with a taskbar always visible on their 7 inch tablet? That is a nightmare

I absolutely agree although I can I can see at least two reasons why they decided the path they did. First, if someone already has a tablet with a desktop mode (like the Stream 7 or DV8P), you probably don't want to take that away from them. Second, while it's all "Windows 10" and a large portion of the codebase is shared or even the same (and the APIs are the same), there have to be differences between the version that has the desktop and the version that doesn't that would make it difficult to upgrade from a version with a desktop to one without. If it's not difficult, then if I have a 7" tablet, let me choose to have the new version without a desktop.

I also understand that going forward, people don't want taskbars or a desktop on their tablets. When I upgrade my Dell Venue 8 Pro, unless MS changes things, I'll have a taskbar I really don't want or need. IMHO, 8" devices should run the version without a desktop but MS has said that going forward 8" (or larger) will have the desktop version. What I was trying to say before is that I actually think the cutoff should probably be even higher; say 9" and less should run the non-desktop version. I'm sure that MS has some sort of research showing that the route their going is the "right" one, but I don't agree.

I have an 8 inch Acer W4 and win 10 is not going anywhere near it until MS gets their crap together and stops nerfing the perfectly good Tablet GUI they had with Win 8.1

I'll probably update my Dell V8P but I can already see the taskbar being an annoyance. I'll be curious to see how it all shakes out when everything is fully baked.
 

peestandingup

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I think the problem is that Microsoft "understood" that tablets were going to be the future when developing Windows 8, but so far reality isn't cooperating:

Apple Barely Missed On iPad Sales - Business Insider

While this article is specifically talking about the year-to-year decline in iPad sales, it seems that the overall PC market has stabilized and tablet growth has slowed. It's not clear at all now that tablets are going to be the bulk of computing devices going forward, though phones are certainly going to be important. This is absolutely anecdotal, I know, but my wife was using a Mac Mini desktop and an iPad 2. Her mini was long in the tooth, so over the holidays we went looking at computers and she picked out a 13" MacBook Air. She literally hasn't touched the iPad in over a month. Just last night I grabbed the iPad to run the 8.1.3 update and it was completely dead.
(She also has a Lumia 925, so she straddles both ecosystems; it's a shame that the new Dell XPS13 laptop hadn't come out yet, because she might have been interested in that.)

Possibly. But I think iPad's problems is that its just so limited to what a real computer can do, so people just end up using their phones since its the same OS/apps. Thats probably why the bigger of the new iPhones is selling so well.

Regarding MS's issue, I think even if tablets aren't the way of the future (yet), the modern UI could be/should've been. The problem with Windows 8 was that there was/is a LOT of stuff you can't do in the modern UI. Tons of settings, controls, etc that MS either didn't have ready, or didn't want to put into Metro. And the big one, APPS. Lots & lots of them that people depend on are only avail in classic that still hasn't came over to modern. All of this stuff keeps classic mode hanging on.

Its not totally MS's fault, but a lot of it is (like avail settings inside Metro). I think in the beginning of Windows 8 they probably wanted classic mostly dead by now, but that obviously isn't happening. I just wish they weren't going so far back the other way with it now.
 

Stefan Holder

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The OP fails to acknowledge that this build is the desktop centric Windows 10 build. It's geared towards more desktop and laptop scenarios. To truly get what the true tablet mode of Win10 will act in tablets you gotta wait for the consumer preview. The tone of your post came across as complaining and not as a constructive discussion. Anyways, that's the whole reasoning behind the TP. For users like your good selves to find what works or not and provide feedback. Cheers 🍻

Sent from my Lumia 1320 all the way from Jupiter.
 

jhoff80

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The OP fails to acknowledge that this build is the desktop centric Windows 10 build. It's geared towards more desktop and laptop scenarios. To truly get what the true tablet mode of Win10 will act in tablets you gotta wait for the consumer preview.

9926 is in fact the 'consumer preview' (or the closest to one that they're doing this time). Also, let's keep in mind that the final version is going to be out by the end of the year. If there's any time to bring up concerns with the first true taste they've shown of tablet mode, now would be the time.
 

JamesDax

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9926 is in fact the 'consumer preview' (or the closest to one that they're doing this time). Also, let's keep in mind that the final version is going to be out by the end of the year. If there's any time to bring up concerns with the first true taste they've shown of tablet mode, now would be the time.

This is not in fact the consumer preview. That's why it's called a Technical Preview.
 

jhoff80

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This is not in fact the consumer preview. That's why it's called a Technical Preview.

There's not going to be anything explicitly named the consumer preview this time. They're doing a rolling set of technical previews (probably because "consumer preview" implies that it's ready for all consumers to test it and they don't want to give that impression). However, this build is the equivalent of the Windows 8 Consumer Preview, as it's at the same point in the release timeline, and has all of the early consumer features.
 

mrpuny

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Possibly. But I think iPad's problems is that its just so limited to what a real computer can do, so people just end up using their phones since its the same OS/apps. Thats probably why the bigger of the new iPhones is selling so well.

Regarding MS's issue, I think even if tablets aren't the way of the future (yet), the modern UI could be/should've been. The problem with Windows 8 was that there was/is a LOT of stuff you can't do in the modern UI. Tons of settings, controls, etc that MS either didn't have ready, or didn't want to put into Metro. And the big one, APPS. Lots & lots of them that people depend on are only avail in classic that still hasn't came over to modern. All of this stuff keeps classic mode hanging on.

Its not totally MS's fault, but a lot of it is (like avail settings inside Metro). I think in the beginning of Windows 8 they probably wanted classic mostly dead by now, but that obviously isn't happening. I just wish they weren't going so far back the other way with it now.

We'll have to see how the market develops going forward. As Yogi Berra said, "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." At this point, however, I believe that the idea that tablets would rapidly displace PCs was erroneously driven by the normal human tendency to extrapolate short term trends (rapid initial growth for a new market) into the long term combined with a pro-Apple media narrative and an overly simplistic view of people's computing needs and wants.

That's not saying that tablets won't be around, just that there's going to be a more complex mix of devices in people's lives than simply tablets uber alles. Which means that if Microsoft wants to have Windows scaling on a range of devices, they've got their work cut out for them. I don't envy the Windows 10 team.

So take the charms bar of Windows 8.x, or even more broadly, all the edge swipe gestures. I really do like them for the most part, and the left/right swipes in particular can be wonderfully convenient when holding my Dell V8P. A quick flick of the thumbs brings up the charms or the Modern app task switcher. But they're not perfect. My kids and I have often accidentally triggered them, especially playing games. Fruit Ninja, being all fast swipes across the screen, was particularly bad for this. That was the game that drove me to change the default left swipe gesture to be the task switcher rather than sliding in the next app on the stack. I'd be playing Fruit Ninja and all of a sudden I'd be looking at my email or internet explorer. It gets worse the smaller you go in screen size. Except for the pull-down notification added in WP8.1, Windows Phone really doesn't have any edge swipes, and I'm pretty sure that's due to screen size. That pull-down gesture for notifications comes from Android, also copied by iOS, so it's 'standard' and given the normal portrait orientation of a phone, that's probably the least likely edge gesture to be triggered accidentally. I've also run into a similar situation using a laptop running Windows 8. It had a small trackpad with trackpad gestures enabled, and I found it maddening because I was frequently getting my finger too close to the edge of the trackpad and triggering an edge swipe.

On the desktop, the 'hook' mouse motions for the left/right edge swipes are also a little clunky, and I think it makes sense to do something about them there to improve the desktop experience. There's also another oddity with the charms bar either with windowed Modern apps or snapped modern apps if the app with focus isn't on the right side. That oddity is that the charms bar is analogous to a menu bar in a traditional desktop app. However, it's more like the menu bar on a Mac where it's at a fixed screen location regardless of the app window location, rather than like on Windows where it's in the app window. And like on the Mac, sometimes I've found myself bringing up the charms for the wrong app because I thought the other one had focus. There are other things that may be a concern, like what about the near-bezeless XPS13? It can be configured with a touch screen; do the edge gestures work OK on that system? How about if a future version pushes for an even smaller bezel?

This is just my musing trying to reverse engineer the decisions that are going on with Windows 10. I may be completely wrong in my thinking. But what I see is a potential logic that edge gestures may only be workable on a subset of potential windows computing devices, and an attempt to come up with a common solution instead to build a coherent experience across the entire range.
 

Loc Ngo

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But its name is still "Technical Preview" and there hasn't been anything named "Consumer Preview" officially released from MS. So it still heavily focuses on the desktop mode of Windows. MS needs your constructive feedback to make it a beautiful and fully-functional OS for us consumers, not all the whining like in this forum. So stop intuiting things from your feelings, instead try to make deductions based on known (and officially announced) facts.
Gosh, I wish that people could be this over-sensitive about everything that the likes of Apple or Google do.
 

cool8man

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I think the problem is that Microsoft "understood" that tablets were going to be the future when developing Windows 8, but so far reality isn't cooperating:

Apple Barely Missed On iPad Sales - Business Insider

While this article is specifically talking about the year-to-year decline in iPad sales, it seems that the overall PC market has stabilized and tablet growth has slowed. It's not clear at all now that tablets are going to be the bulk of computing devices going forward, though phones are certainly going to be important. This is absolutely anecdotal, I know, but my wife was using a Mac Mini desktop and an iPad 2. Her mini was long in the tooth, so over the holidays we went looking at computers and she picked out a 13" MacBook Air. She literally hasn't touched the iPad in over a month. Just last night I grabbed the iPad to run the 8.1.3 update and it was completely dead.
(She also has a Lumia 925, so she straddles both ecosystems; it's a shame that the new Dell XPS13 laptop hadn't come out yet, because she might have been interested in that.)

Wrong. The PC market did decline last quarter if you exclude Windows tablets (see IDC). As you point out that was an iPad decline, but tablets in general did not decline. People have stopped getting iPads because they can get Android and Windows tablet for under $99 or a 2-in-1 PC with a tablet for under $200. When you look at the latest Gartner and IDC numbers if you don't count Windows tablets then PC sales declined significantly year over year (even counting Chromebooks), if you do include tablets (Gartner) then PC sales increased year over year. That means it is tablets driving the market forward and the traditional PC form factor is still dying (even if you count Chromebooks which aren't full PCs).

Desktop and laptop sales are still declining which resulted in drastically lower Windows license revenue; that is why Microsoft's stock price just plummeted over 10%.
 

mrpuny

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Wrong. The PC market did decline last quarter if you exclude Windows tablets (see IDC). As you point out that was an iPad decline, but tablets in general did not decline. People have stopped getting iPads because they can get Android and Windows tablet for under $99 or a 2-in-1 PC with a tablet for under $200. When you look at the latest Gartner and IDC numbers if you don't count Windows tablets then PC sales declined significantly year over year (even counting Chromebooks), if you do include tablets (Gartner) then PC sales increased year over year. That means it is tablets driving the market forward and the traditional PC form factor is still dying (even if you count Chromebooks which aren't full PCs).

Desktop and laptop sales are still declining which resulted in drastically lower Windows license revenue; that is why Microsoft's stock price just plummeted over 10%.

Wow, that's some pretty strong statements. So let's see, PC sales are "dying" falling by an absolutely huge, astounding.....2.4% not including "tablets", which I think also includes hybrids, 2-in-ones, etc., right? Meanwhile, Gartner, including those other devices, showed a 1% growth. IDC estimated 80.8 million PC units last quarter, vs Gartner's 83.7 million. Which means that several years in to the post-PC revolution in which traditional PCs were supposed to be relegated to very niche markets (like the old UNIX workstations) the PC market seems awfully stable.

And Windows revenues were drastically lower (~13% IIRC) based on "lower PC sales" (-2.4% worst case according to IDC.) Yep, all due to declining PC sales, and nothing at all due to Microsoft's "zero dollar" and low-cost licensing going forward.

This is another case where the facts don't quite seem to fit the narrative.
 

peestandingup

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It really wouldn't take much to alleviate some of these issue in tablet mode if MS would just implement them. Make hiding the taskbar easier & not glitchy, remove the frequent app list on the left side, and make search/Cortana either removable or accessible some other way. Tablet users don't need any of those things staring them in the face at all times, especially when screen resolution/real estate is so small on most windows tablets.

If I want to search for something, I can edge swipe left. If I want to see my full list of apps, I can swipe up. This is how it is in 8.1 & it works. It should stay that way. If Cortana is set to always listening, then that's even more of a reason to get rid of that bar. Why would I want that bar to be there at all times when I can just talk to the tablet?
 

swanlee

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Joe Belifore has stated the taskbar is supposed to be present at all times in Tablet mode and other aspects of the TP reflect what they intend on the final release like the removal of Charms.

We know the TP will be buggy but the issue isn't bugs the issues are MS intends to have the OS work this way on Tablets which is a huge step back from win 8.1 on tablets.

Now is the time to speak on these issues not when the code is final and they can't change it.
 

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