Is W10P entering a pure features battle and losing its distinct design identity?

[Jeetin Bishnoi]

WIN 10 will be there for 620?

 

[tiziano27]

I assume that with "it" you are also referring to how easy it is for developers to port apps. I place little faith in those claims.

People not involved in the software industry tend to greatly overestimate the importance of how a UI looks in terms of how that impacts porting costs. Compared to the costs incurred by each OS having completely different libraries, frameworks, and (less importantly) using different programming languages, the impact of a more similar looking UI is limited. Consider that even with a similar UI, the instructions that draw those similar UI's to their screens are still completely different. What we're talking about here is solely conceptual similarity, not technical similarity. That's not nothing, but for something as simple as an app, conceptual similarity isn't that big of a deal either. How much of a difference do you expect that to make? How long do you think it would take for someone who made, say, Tapatalk for Android, to come up with the corresponding design for WP? I'd say most people on this website could do that rather quickly. That's the difference we're talking about. Not more.

IMHO the view that this would make a substantial difference can only be maintained through ignorance.

There is an entirely different angle which might make more sense. We've heard about MS potentially attempting to provide a way for developers to develop an app but once, with the ability for that single app to run unmodified on all three platforms. That is not called porting, nor would that directly affect any of the Android apps that already exist, but having a very similar UI is probably the only way to get that to work effectively. If MS is in fact working on that ability, then you can bet your bottom dollar that's what's behind these UI changes. Not porting costs like some are speculating.

And one last thing. I work in the software industry and have over the last few months talked with multiple CTO's who's companies don't provide apps for WP. They don't all have the same reasons for not supporting WP, but none of them cited porting costs as a reason either.

The "app economy" is highly unequal, like the real economy. According to stats from Vision Mobile, 85% of the app developers (interested in revenues) make less than $1000 of monthly revenue, and there are also many non-profit and non-comercial apps.
So, in many cases a 10% or 20% of cost savings could make the difference to make viable a WP project, probably not for a big company, however, niche apps or small local apps are also important in the smartphone experience.

Apps also vary widely in the complexity of the code vs. complexity of the UI. Some developers invest a lot of time and resources in the UI, a big part of that investment could be lost if a different UI is needed for WP.
Designing an UI is as easy as writing code, anyone can do It, but most of us would do an awful job. I'm not a dev and I can write awful code that could make cry a good developer.

As other guys said, a closer equivalence of the UI elements with Android could make possible automated tools that to generate the XAML code. Java and C# are quite similar, It's easy to automate the translation of code. The problem are the APIs, but maybe some adapters could be used to provide some of the Android APIs in C#.
Of course It's impossible to generate a working app ready to use, but part of the work could be automated, and links to documentation could be inserted as reference for a manual translation, or to improve the automated code. The objective is to reduce the cost of development for small projects.

There are other tools like Appcelerator, (I don't know if they're still around), which provide a common API to develop NATIVE apps in a neutral language, javascript in the case of Appcelerator. WP is always a problem, the lowest common denominator is too low if you add Metro weirdness to a common API.

...
CTO told me this or that It's not a good argument. At the end economic decisions can be simplified to Net Present Value and Opportunity cost, or an alternative analytical framework with those elements.

 

[MikeSo]

I think it's less about resources and costs for apps than about keeping a specific look to associate themselves with the brand. The big apps want their apps to look largely the same across platforms, and if they couldn't do that on WP they'd rather not make an app at all. Whether it cost a little more to make it look the same was likely irrelevant.

 

[white_Shadoww]

I think it's less about resources and costs for apps than about keeping a specific look to associate themselves with the brand. The big apps want their apps to look largely the same across platforms, and if they couldn't do that on WP they'd rather not make an app at all. Whether it cost a little more to make it look the same was likely irrelevant.

But they are free to make their app look however they want on WP. Metro guidelines are just guidelines not rules. If a developer put a hamburger in the app, it won't magically disappear when it is submitted to the store. However, if MS stuck to Metro for their first party apps, not right now, but maybe in future when WP marketshare increases, those companies will make their apps Metro. Just like how every app developer changes its design according to UI of every iOS update, at least major companies like Facebook.

 

[rollindice]

how many occasion one uses one hand on their phone...if I am not driving then I still used 2 hand to work on my phone....

One hand usage on phone is VERY COMMON, allows you to multitask also....I love the swiping features in Windows Phone but I it scares me some of the UI changes.

 

[bschiav]

One hand usage on phone is VERY COMMON, allows you to multitask also....I love the swiping features in Windows Phone but I it scares me some of the UI changes.

To add my usage experience. I use my phone almost exclusively one handed in 8.1. I think it's partially because I can...and partially because I'm just used to it. I use my phone frequently, and while on the go, but for short duration tasks (a quick text or search, etc.). My hands are large enough to make it pretty easy. Word Flow makes this possible even for texting. And the gesture/pivot and bottom right ellipsis controls work well.

Sometimes you do "need" to use it one handed, but personally, I use it one handed even when I don't have a real "need" to do so. I wonder how many others use their phone like this?

 

[white_Shadoww]

To add my usage experience. I use my phone almost exclusively one handed in 8.1. I think it's partially because I can...and partially because I'm just used to it. I use my phone frequently, and while on the go, but for short duration tasks (a quick text or search, etc.). My hands are large enough to make it pretty easy. Word Flow makes this possible even for texting. And the gesture/pivot and bottom right ellipsis controls work well.

Sometimes you do "need" to use it one handed, but personally, I use it one handed even when I don't have a real "need" to do so. I wonder how many others use their phone like this?

Yes. I normally use my phone with only one hand and switch to both hands only if I am typing. Actually this is one of the reasons I bought Windows Phone. Besides looking beautiful, it was super easy to use with one hand.

 

[white_Shadoww]

To those who say, 'How many times you really need to use your phone in one hand because the other hand is occupied?'. I will tell you one incident that just hanneped to me.



I am a college student. So I was reading this very big book. And suddenly, I needed to see a diagram, of which I had taken a photo in my phone from a notebook of my friend using Office lens. Now, what I did. I hold my book in the left hand. Grabbed my phone sitting on the desk with right hand. Opened Photos app, swiped to right, went to Camera roll, found the pic opened it. Compared that diagram to the one in the book, book being in left hand and phone in the right hand. That didn't clear my doubt either. So I called the same friend. I went to the dialer, swiped right to speed dials and called my friend.



Imagine if my phone was on Windows 10. First, I would need to grab a bookmark to put in the book and close it, so that I could use my both hands to open Camera roll in the new photos app. Then I would need to put my phone in my right hand, open the book and compare the diagrams. For further calling my friend, I would again need to put the bookmark in the book, for being able to use my both hands just to do a simple phone call. Then after dialing him, I would need to open the book again, in order to ask him the doubt. Pretty tedious, no??



And this is just one example. There are countless times I need to use my phone one handed. The arguement that 'Do you never use your phone with 2 hands?, Why do need to use a phone in one hand and something in the other hand? We have two hands, shouldn't we use both?' are just pathetic in my opinion. Why, if we can have a better UI, why depart from that? If you want more screen real estate, make fonts of pivots smaller, not cram every essential function in hamburger, out of reach.


Sent from my Lumia 920!

 

[anon(5325154)]

And this is just one example. There are countless times I need to use my phone one handed. The arguement that 'Do you never use your phone with 2 hands?, Why do need to use a phone in one hand and something in the other hand? We have two hands, shouldn't we use both?' are just pathetic in my opinion. Why, if we can have a better UI, why depart from that? If you want more screen real estate, make fonts of pivots smaller, not cram every essential function in hamburger, out of reach.

Personally I don't get why we write on paper with one hand, we have two hands, shouldn't we use both? :winktongue:

 

[manicottiK]

Personally I don't get why we write on paper with one hand, we have two hands, shouldn't we use both? :winktongue:

Or why people use only 10% of their brain, shouldn't we use the other 30%? :wink:

 

[tgp]

Personally I don't get why we write on paper with one hand, we have two hands, shouldn't we use both? :winktongue:

I use both. I always have my left hand on the paper. It holds it in place. I bet you do too! :wink:

 

[a5cent]

Or why people use only 10% of their brain, shouldn't we use the other 30%? :wink:

I only use 5%. The world is unfair enough as it is.

 

[rockstarzzz]

There is a user voice thread asking to retain pivots and get rid of hamburger menus. It's got nearly 49k votes. Can we give it a push?
Sent from my Darth V.

 

[Alain_A]

is the enterprise side heavier than the consumer using windows????

 

[fatclue_98]

It seems there is clearly a divide between those who want Windows to remain a "renegade" OS in terms of design and those who want Windows to "fall in" with the other offerings to gain acceptance. Interesting choices ahead for Microsoft design teams.

Sent from my bitchin' Lumia 2520

 

[manicottiK]

It seems there is clearly a divide between those who want Windows to remain a "renegade" OS in terms of design and those who want Windows to "fall in" with the other offerings to gain acceptance.

Universal Translator for Pro Metro folks: It seems there is clearly a divide between those who want Windows to remain an "exceptional" OS in terms of usability and those who want Windows to "seek mediocrity" with the other offerings to gain acceptance.

:wink:

 

[fatclue_98]

Universal Translator for Pro Metro folks: It seems there is clearly a divide between those who want Windows to remain an "exceptional" OS in terms of usability and those who want Windows to "seek mediocrity" with the other offerings to gain acceptance.

:wink:

I meant renegade in the good sense. It's clear that the supporters of other mobile platforms do nothing but bash live tiles and the "bland" UI. Windows 8 detractors came out of the woodwork when it was released on PCs. Hard core fans like us seem to be the only ones who dig Microsoft. I'd call that being a renegade since "maverick" makes me sick already.

That being said, we need a larger user base on the mobile front. There's no getting around that and since Microsoft is the one who pulls the purse strings, you're starting to see some mediocrity set in. You can wax poetically all you like, but at the end of the day it's all about the Benjamins.

 

[theefman]

It seems there is clearly a divide between those who want Windows to remain a "renegade" OS in terms of design and those who want Windows to "fall in" with the other offerings to gain acceptance. Interesting choices ahead for Microsoft design teams.

Sent from my bitchin' Lumia 2520

I guess the question is, will it gain acceptance? Or is this effectively the end of Microsoft in the mobile space, with Metro having been rejected and their new "appeasement" UI offering nothing over the competition?

 

[fatclue_98]

I guess the question is, will it gain acceptance? Or is this effectively the end of Microsoft in the mobile space, with Metro having been rejected and their new "appeasement" UI offering nothing over the competition?

Judging by the way Microsoft apps are being used, or at least downloaded, on Android and iOS it would seem as though users like what they see. The choice to have a background on Windows 10 for Phone with few, many or none of the live tiles is especially welcome. Metro lovers can have all the tiles they want and those being appeased can have a clean start screen. If that's not enough to win over some converts, I don't know what else they could do. Even the most ardent anti-MS bloggers praise the fluid operation of the OS but almost every one of them hates the tiles. Bada Boom, Bada Bing!

 

[tiziano27]

We all know that Microsoft is a little slow, but five years should be enough to learn how to design a smartphone. If Microsoft insists with Metro and its inferior user experience, WP will die.
The competition in the smartphone market is increasing, not only Android and iOS are improving, new products are entering the market. The probability of surviving with an inferior product like WP is zero.