Someone needs to send this to Microsoft

tiziano27

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Part of what's going on in this and other hamburger-related threads is that we're all recognizing that there's less agreement and consistency -- and thus less "common knowledge" -- about "hamburger menus" than many of us assume. I've heard varying degrees of argument that the "purpose" of a hamburger is to: 1) access less-frequently used functions, 2) access settings, 3) replace tabs, or 4) provide for almost all aspects of app navigation. Given that the hamburger is visible at all times and on all pages, #1 and #2 make little sense to me (why give up prime on-screen real estate to things that are NOT used often). The only difference between #3 and #4 is whether the menu contains only top-level choices (#3) or also provides direct access to more of the functions of the app (#4).

So, before one can decide whether or not they like the idea of hamburgers, one has to know what the like/dislike choice brings. If hamburger is supposed to be #4 above, there's research to say that regular users can be harmed while power users are helped.

If you don't use the hamburger or ellipses for less used functions, where do you put them? The hamburger use so little space, It's a great solution for this.
The hamburger is not necessarily always visible. Some internal pages can hide the hamburger and show a back button, trying to express the idea of a detail page, and that to go backwards the back button should be used.
 

tiziano27

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We, pretty much all of us, are not "regular" in this sense. Regular people do well with listbox-based apps because the list items are the UI; tapping a list item drives the user deeper into the content. This navigational model has been tested, it works, the idea is sound. Hamburgers separate content and UI; they makes apps modal and make users think of switching from one mode to another. Yes, they can also provide direct-access to functions without requiring many taps and that's why power users or frequent users of specific apps like them.

Using list of links as the main page implies that the user don't get the content immediately, you could kill and app with that. The revenue of Facebook, Twitter or a news app that shows a list of links as the main screen, would fall dramatically.


...
But they are bad for regular users. Regular users don't tap things that they aren't sure of. I remember in the 1980's telling my mother that none of the buttons on the computer actually start a fire or cause anything to explode and that she should feel free to look around and experiment. She still wanted a list of things that she could do and would not try anything new on her own. While most folks today are much, much more accustomed to technology, they are still "most folks" and not "tech-obsessed folks."

Those who argue here that "hamburger isn't a big deal" really mean "I can handle it, so why the fuss?" The answer is because user experiences should not be designed to depend on the deep knowledge and engagement of sophisticated users like us. We are exactly the wrong people to say "that's obvious." Some of us arguing this point have tested various UIs to see how they impact UX. I can tell you that from our work, hamburgers menus diminish usage for "regular" people while exciting sophisticated users -- the control is polarizing.

This is not a problem of the hamburger menus, It's a problem hidden functionality. It happens to Pivots, Panoramas and Ellipses menu too.
 

manicottiK

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Using list of links as the main page implies that the user don't get the content immediately, you could kill and app with that. The revenue of Facebook, Twitter or a news app that shows a list of links as the main screen, would fall dramatically.
Agreed, but that's my secret plan! Well, not exactly, but I understand the issue and it's why an email app doesn't begin with a folder list.

This is not a problem of the hamburger menus, It's a problem hidden functionality. It happens to Pivots, Panoramas and Ellipses menu too.
I do think that pivot, pano, are other tab-based apps are less susceptible to the hidden function problem than hamburger-based apps because the tabs are calling out to be viewed.

My recollection -- and it's probably not correct, but it's all that I have right now -- is that the hamburger menu came from the "mobile-first responsive design" world where web sites needed to be re-structured to fit on a small-scale screen. Because menu bars are so common on websites and because so many people/departments won hard-fought battle for some of that precious menu bar real estate (particularly when those menu bars supported dropdown menus), few organizations were willing to re-think how their websites should work. As such, UX metaphors designed for large-screen devices were retained in supposedly "mobile-first" design projects. Over time, those "mobile" web standards migrated into native apps. As such, we now have "phone" apps that are designed around principles created for a totally different form factor.
 

manicottiK

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Perfect case in point is Internet Explorer which is where I am typing right now. If I touch the left side, regardless of how accurate I am avoiding the tab button, I still hit the tab button or I hit the URL section.
You won't trick me into defending Microsoft's odd "fake app bar" design of IE on WP8!

In the same argument against the hamburger menu being "not good for users" the same can be said about the three dot menu.
I won't agree with you here because I think that the hamburger and the app bar menu serve different purposes. Typically, app bars contain function buttons and take users to non-content areas such as settings. On the other hand, hamburgers typically link to content (see the Facebook app).
 

tiziano27

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I do think that pivot, pano, are other tab-based apps are less susceptible to the hidden function problem than hamburger-based apps because the tabs are calling out to be viewed.

Pivots are just tabs deformed by the Metro weirdness: The huge font for the tab titles, and the twist that you can go from the last tab to the first one, which is highly confusing for the users.
Because font is so big, only two or three tab titles can be showed in each page, the other tabs are totally hidden without any indication of their existence. If you have 5 or more tabs It's a nightmare for the user.

Panoramas are even worst, panoramas are the evil itself. Who did invent such horrible thing?
In a Panorama, you can have a page that is wider than the screen, so the user sometimes scroll vertically, other times scroll horizontally, other times an horizontal swipe is used to go to the next tab. That's confusing.
A page only hints the next tab, all the other tabs are hidden without any indication of their existence.

In both controls It's impossible to get a high level view of the tabs. In Android, you can scroll the tab titles to understand your options, although, that's not easy to discover.

Metro sucks. !
 

white_Shadoww

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Pivots are just tabs deformed by the Metro weirdness: The huge font for the tab titles, and the twist that you can go from the last tab to the first one, which is highly confusing for the users.


Because font is so big, only two or three tab titles can be showed in each page, the other tabs are totally hidden without any indication of their existence. If you have 5 or more tabs It's a nightmare for the user.





Panoramas are even worst, panoramas are the evil itself. Who did invent such horrible thing?


In a Panorama, you can have a page that is wider than the screen, so the user sometimes scroll vertically, other times scroll horizontally, other times an horizontal swipe is used to go to the next tab. That's confusing.


A page only hints the next tab, all the other tabs are hidden without any indication of their existence.





In both controls It's impossible to get a high level view of the tabs. In Android, you can scroll the tab titles to understand your options, although, that's not easy to discover.





Metro sucks. !



Well, panoramas are not for every app. Remember the old Music hub. It is for apps like those.
 

RumoredNow

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hey OP, the swipe chart was a very good example of why upper left controls suck. good job.

but the defensive comments in favor of poor user interface choices ....

it's like defending a car company's choice of putting the windshield wipe control switch on the right front bumper. sure, you can turn on the wipers anytime you want, just stop, get out, walk around the car, reach under the bumper, and press the waterproof switch. simple !

​makes one's head spin

Moving more than one finger onto your phone's screen is that difficult. Dear God, I never realized!!! :winktongue:
 

spaulagain

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Moving more than one finger onto your phone's screen is that difficult. Dear God, I never realized!!! :winktongue:

Actually, it is if you are using your other hand for something else like holding a drink, etc.

I don't get the people that blow off the UX issue this creates. It's not a deal breaker, but it is am issue. And it's an easily solvable issue. It's not that hard to allow the user to swipe instead of pressing the actual hamburger icon.
 

Kram Sacul

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I don't have Windows 10 on my phone, but from what I've seen of the pictures, I think it's great. The regular 8.1 photos app has a bunch of wasted space, and the new design fixes that.

View attachment 97295

View attachment 97296

I agree. The elegant and useful headers are total space wasters. What were they thinking? Why focus on style and presentation when they can cram in as much stuff as possible. Instead of bothering with a nice clean and clear pivot system where we can easily jump from All to Favorites in a few flicks they can just put a hamburger button in the corner like any generic website. It's much less work and they only have to do it once since it's a "universal app". Heck, just put everything at the top of the screen away our fingers. Screw usability. Let the user do all the work trying to navigate this garbage.
 

RumoredNow

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Moving more than one finger onto your phone's screen is that difficult. Dear God, I never realized!!! :winktongue:

Refers to the analogy I quoted...

hey OP, the swipe chart was a very good example of why upper left controls suck. good job.

but the defensive comments in favor of poor user interface choices ....

it's like defending a car company's choice of putting the windshield wipe control switch on the right front bumper. sure, you can turn on the wipers anytime you want, just stop, get out, walk around the car, reach under the bumper, and press the waterproof switch. simple !

​makes one's head spin

So moving more than one finger onto the phone screen is analogous to putting the phone in park, exiting the phone and walking around to the front of the phone to place that second digit.

Was it not clear I was replying to the post I quoted???
 

white_Shadoww

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I agree. The elegant and useful headers are total space wasters. What were they thinking? Why focus on style and presentation when they can cram in as much stuff as possible. Instead of bothering with a nice clean and clear pivot system where we can easily jump from All to Favorites in a few flicks they can just put a hamburger button in the corner like any generic website. It's much less work and they only have to do it once since it's a "universal app". Heck, just put everything at the top of the screen away our fingers. Screw usability. Let the user do all the work trying to navigate this garbage.



Totally agree with you. Font size can be reduced to avoid waste of space. Please someone give me screenshots of Photos app for Windows 10 for phones. One with hamburger closed and one with hamburger open. As well as one screenshot of the desktop app as well. And I will show how pivots can be better than hamburger and won't waste screen real estate.
 

ohgood

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Refers to the analogy I quoted...



So moving more than one finger onto the phone screen is analogous to putting the phone in park, exiting the phone and walking around to the front of the phone to place that second digit.

Was it not clear I was replying to the post I quoted???


requiring two hands for a one-thumb input just doesn't make sense.

the exaggeration of the bumper-button was to showcase the absurdity of putting normal-use controls in odd places.



older headlight dimmer:
if you want some humor... have you heard about the insert-rival-university student, who got his foot caught in the steering wheel as he tried to dim the cars high beams ? (too young a generation won't get this one)

even older starter control:
or the very old farmer who kept breaking the steering column when he tried to start his granddaughters prius ? (too young generations won't get this one either)

it's all about the logical placement of controls. things change, and that's fine. change for the sake of 'different' instead of logic just won't improve things.
 

Praxius

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You won't trick me into defending Microsoft's odd "fake app bar" design of IE on WP8!

I won't agree with you here because I think that the hamburger and the app bar menu serve different purposes. Typically, app bars contain function buttons and take users to non-content areas such as settings. On the other hand, hamburgers typically link to content (see the Facebook app).

I honestly wasn't trying to trick you into anything. I was merely stating my personal experiences regarding the three dot menu.

In the majority of cases for me, the three dot menus I use regularly are in apps that prevent me from being able to swipe or select the menu from the left side due to pre-existing items contained in that menu bar. (Internet Explorer is the main culprit)

I am not saying that they should suddenly remove the three dot menu simply because there's a minor inconvenience once in a while which I have already adapted to. I never even considered it an inconvenience to be honest, not until I put it in the same perspective as other have done with the hamburger menu.

I am not supporting, defending or attacking any particular menu style, I am merely pointing out that no one menu system is perfect and no one menu system will please everybody.

As I have not received W10 for my 930 and have yet to try out the hamburger menu system myself, I can not personally judge it's benefits or flaws at this stage.

But I am also not going to just take the word of others on the internet on if they are bad or not. I will judge for myself when the time comes.

What these or other hamburger buttons do or don't do isn't so much of a focal point for me. What will matter in the end is how often I will need to use the button and whether it is overall more easier or harder "for me" to use these buttons.

While I liked Windows Phone's Pivot system, it wasn't exactly perfect either. There was no straight forward way of jumping from one section to another without having to swipe through multiple sections first.

With the section listings at the top as they were, people new to the specific app have no idea exactly what those sections are or how many sections there are until they swipe all the way through and then eventually swipe back to what they actually want.

Does the panning effect and uneven/perspective object panning look pretty? Sure.

But is it really better "function-wise?"

For certain apps, perhaps.... But in honesty and being objective, it still has flaws and does not function really well for other apps.

Again, I am not saying Hamburgers (three bar drop down/slide out menus) or Basketball (pivot) or Three Salt Grains (Tiny little three dots on a small sliver in the bottom right) menus are better or worse than another. They all have their strengths and weaknesses depending on what they are used for.

But one thing is for certain:

One menu style alone forced to be universal for all apps/os's will not solve all problems, let alone reduce more than it creates.

I am not any huge fan of the hamburger system, but I am also not hugely opposed of them either.

I believe once we get another more solid update for W10M that supports the higher end / bigger phones AND we get an update to W10 for PC with more universal apps that look and feel the same on all three systems (so we can all try these apps on each platform ourselves) we can then see and feel what the overall bigger picture will be like and see what Microsoft is really planning.... We will be able to better understand why they went this route in the first place and then we can formulate some better opinions and suggestions on the matter.

Right now, it's simply still too early to know. All people are complaining about now is visuals and a very limited set of apps to go off of. Those complaining about the hamburger menu on their 1520's being too far away and hard to reach with a single thumb are currently in an invalid position.

I say they are in an invalid position because they hacked their 1520 and placed an early version of the OS onto their system that is not technically designed for their system yet and arguing and protesting over something they have no logical grounds to argue about.

Beyond the Partition Stitching thing, we have very little idea what is in store for the flagships and large screen build. Maybe MS is working on something that modifies that menu for large screens like how they have the floating keyboard for large screens. Maybe the layout will change slightly or there will be additional settings added into the OS to modify or switch this menu somehow to cater for large screens.

It wouldn't surprise me.... Why would they make a floating keyboard to make typing on large screens easier with one hand and yet put in such a menu in an areas they would have known would be annoying for some people? That's like one step forward and one step back.

If I was a betting man, I'd say one of the other reasons why the low end / smaller phones got the release first had more to do with them working on this very problem and they wanted to try and avoid all of these complaints before they had it all figured out.

Yet people figured out how to hack their phones and put this build on their phones.... And they're all complaining about a build they shouldn't even have on their phone just yet. A build not specifically designed/refined for their phones and their size.

All we can do is wait and see.

Wait and see what comes about from the next build that introduces W10 for the Icon/930/1020/1320/1520 Etc

..... Then people can complain all they want with justified reasons.
 

_Emi_

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Rain and hot dogs and umbrellas....
that's only on the first page...

I guess I will not continue Reading this thread.

there are many ways to use these kind of features on a large screen or even a small screen even if you are only using with one hand. it's not like you can put the pone against your body and move your finger a Little more, I mean, if you had to check your photos while the raining is falling.

also this is just a preview, we don't know what will come in future from feedback and all that. even after feedback these apps can be changed. but they have to be consistent with computer, I mean, that's the point of Universal Apps, to show developers can take less time developing for Windows platform, target different devices and don't start being lazy and bring their apps only to phones or others only to tablets and desktops.

It's funny how people complain about this and put the "but what if my hand is busy and I can't reach"... well, not always you have your hands busy and not always you will navigate with your thumb, also... this is only a photos App, the main view will show you all photos, you can easily scroll up and down and find your photo if you really need it while eating and ice-cream or holding an umbrella.

I am glad most people here have two hands... I mean, I am sure there are people who had an accident or were born without arms or just one, or something. thank god, you are not that person, if you complain, having two hands how hard is to navigate.... I can't imagine how complainer you would be about everything if you only had one hand or none. have you ever seen those amazing artist painting and writing with their feet and doing all that? well I am sure you would be the ones complaining and never trying to do anything. it's just a hamburger menu, it Works, you can move your hand and fingers if you need to tap on it or use your other hand.

stop making excuses, stop pretending the world turns around you. stop pretending you can't adapt to a small change that will not kill you. maybe at least if you move your hands a little more you will at least exercise your fingers and stop being lazy. I wonder how many complaining have used Win10 TP on their phones, and how many have just seen photos and videos and are complaining without trying to adapt.
 

rollindice

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I asked this question under this forum post http://forums.windowscentral.com/wi...-experience-using-windows-10-your-device.html

I don't have it for my device as yet (1020) but I wanna ask others who have it,from videos I see online make me wanna ask question since I see changes to the UI,in the Phone app,when selected you see history by default and usually swipe left to right and get to speed dial quickly and Dialer at the bottom, can you still swipe from left to right and easily switch to between history and speed dial or you ha e to stretch your fingers till to the top to select
I?ve gotten response from someone saying ?Pivot is pretty much dead in Windows 10. So unfortunately there's no swipe. You have to stretch to the top to click it and sometimes you have to precisely click on the icon for it to work.? And I should head over to this forum post to discuss it, I?ve attached screen shots ,the one from the new W10 phone is taken from this youtube video. (Windows 10 Technical Preview for Phone Hands-on [Lumia 830] -Booredatwork) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4TkBpetKlU at 07:42 , you?ll see he opens the phone app like I said in post .


Changes like these are forcing the user to use both hands to get simple things done instead of easy swipe, I really hope this changes. I could imagine on the bigger screen phones to get to speed dial or history now you gotta use both hands or stretch quite uncomfortably to the direct option.

cantswipeinphoneapp.jpg
 

Nicholas Maguire

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I'm on the side that thinks if you bought a 6 inch phone and are complaining about having to use 2 hands, you should buy a phone more your size. Also, I was thinking the same thing as the person who said what's the point of that screen space if you don't want them to use it? Do you think there shouldn't be anything you have to touch at the top of the screen? I use 4.3 - 5 inch phones and even I use two hands sometimes. I love the new UI's so far in Windows 10. You 6 inchers are getting worse than the "wen in India" guys.
 
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