Hamburger menu system SUCKS for one handed orientation!

TechFreak1

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Mobile websites shouldn't be the model for OS UI design. Also doing things differently doesn't have to mean doing it stupidly. I can understand that MS is desperate to get the ball rolling with WP/Mobile/whatever adoption but throwing away most of what is good about WP for bad designs isn't likely to change things. If anything it's just ticking off the current users who came to the platform because they liked the uniqueness and user friendliness of WP. We've lost the hubs, the stylish typography, the panoramic apps and now one handed use. A Google-less Android clone with tiles just isn't exciting to me.

Of course it isn't, it's the familiarity of design between what's out there and their own apps on other platforms.

I feel by doing this Microsoft is hoping they have found a winning formula as lets face it what are the alternatives?

Microsoft releasing android phones? :grincry:

Or carry on doing what they were doing and maybe it will catch on but after several years of trying the same thing it hasn't so what do you do?

There is always an element of risk in anything you do as things can easily go side ways.

It's not about what you, I, or the current minority of users like (in comparison to the number of ios & android users, we are a minority). It's about appealing to mass audience and selling phones.

However there-in lies the problem, how do you a) get over the stigma of sales reps b) stop the carriers from hampering the sales of devices c) relay a consistent message across the board for developers, which far from consistent - Microsoft used their own tools to develop apps, whereas developers had a different set however with Windows 10 they are using the same tools as developers (source MJF - windows weekly).

Time will tell if they had found the winning formula or not, personally I feel that if they took the best bits out of WP10 and mixed it with WP8.1 they would have had a pretty solid product.

But let's not forget, phone is still in preview.
 

a5cent

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That article reflects my thoughts exactly. That MS would stoop to such levels of UI design incompetence is almost depressing.
I feel by doing this Microsoft is hoping they have found a winning formula as lets face it what are the alternatives?
Microsoft releasing android phones? :grincry:
Or carry on doing what they were doing and maybe it will catch on but after several years of trying the same thing it hasn't so what do you do?
The alternatives are the same ones they've always been, but MS has for years failed to deliver:
Create an OS that at least matches all the features of the iPhone, and add to that two or three signature features which are highly desirable to a lot of people, which MS are clearly first to market with, and which are easily marketable on television! Before MS does that, they haven't yet legitimately tried.
Cortana may have been intended as such a feature, but Cortana's full feature set being limited to the US, and every other platform already having an assistent, made it difficult for many to see Cortana as a must-have feature they can't have anywhere else.
The UI becoming more like the competition's just isn't a selling point. Not even to those who prefer it due to it being more familiar. Why not? Because the new UI represents, at best, a somewhat smaller barrier to entry, but that is meaningless if people aren't interested in what's on the other side of that barrier. They aren't...
Most people here think these UI changes are all about "them" (as consumers), and that these changes are being made in the interest of progress, usability, and a better user experience.
I doubt many at MS believe any of that. I'd bet most at MS view this as a step backwards in all of those areas. IMHO these changes have nothing to do with users and everything to do with developers, intended to facilitate single-source cross-platform app portability. It's also a good step towards making an eventual transition to an MS phone running Android less jarring, should it ever come to that. Obviously, neither of those are reasons MS could publicly admit to.
 
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Spectrum90

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I don't see any major issue for single handed use in W10.
In general the UI in W10 is a huge step forward from WP 7/8/8.1. It seems Microsoft didn't have time to design a decent user experience for WP 7 and just rushed a mediocre product to compete with iPhone.
 

white_Shadoww

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I don't see any major issue for single handed use in W10.
In general the UI in W10 is a huge step forward from WP 7/8/8.1. It seems Microsoft didn't have time to design a decent user experience for WP 7 and just rushed a mediocre product to compete with iPhone.

Hahahahahahhaha u made me laugh really hard!! Joke of the day!
 

colinkiama

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Hahahahahahhaha u made me laugh really hard!! Joke of the day!
He is actually right though the design was amazing but the experience was annoying. Apps used such huge fonts so there wasn't that much space for content. Soooo much scrolllingggggggg. The worst part was the settings which they didn't update till 2015 with 8.1 GDR2 It took 5 years for them to fix the settings menu. 5 years!
 

byobg

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Are you talking about Android here? For the most part, Android handles this quite elegantly (as elegantly as you can call anything Android! :amaze:). For elements that slide horizontally on the same page as the hamburger menu, you just start sliding from inside the edge a bit. Sliding in from the bezel opens the hamburger menu. It is quite intuitive once you learn it.

I'm talking specifically about the two WP apps I know of (Pocket Casts and Spotify) that allow an Android-like "swipe in from the left" gesture to open the hamburger menu. But it's not as "elegant" as Android's implementation, because WP doesn't recognize the difference between a swipe that starts OFF the screen and one that starts ON the screen. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
 

a5cent

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He is actually right though the design was amazing but the experience was annoying. Apps used such huge fonts so there wasn't that much space for content. Soooo much scrolllingggggggg. The worst part was the settings which they didn't update till 2015 with 8.1 GDR2 It took 5 years for them to fix the settings menu. 5 years!
Ehmmm... On WP8.1 fonts were too large and necessitated way too much scrolling, which is why there is no single-handed usability issue on W10M??? Yup, makes complete sense... not.
I agree with your criticisms of the UI on WP8.1 (although I find how the W10M UI necessitates a lot of precision tapping all over the screen even more annoying).
I also agree with MS that almost nobody uses their phone with just one hand. Why? Because only 3% of smartphone users had a phone where UI elements were positioned in a way that made single-handed usage feasible.

Right now MS is slightly exaggerating when they say "nobody uses their phone single-handedly". Once WP users have all moved on to W10M, MS will be absolutely right however...
 

TechFreak1

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That article reflects my thoughts exactly. That MS would stoop to such levels of UI design incompetence is almost depressing.

The alternatives are the same ones they've always been, but MS has for years failed to deliver:
Create an OS that at least matches all the features of the iPhone, and add to that two or three signature features which are highly desirable to a lot of people, which MS are clearly first to market with, and which are easily marketable on television! Before MS does that, they haven't yet legitimately tried.
Cortana may have been intended as such a feature, but Cortana's full feature set being limited to the US, and every other platform already having an assistent, made it difficult for many to see Cortana as a must-have feature they can't have anywhere else.
The UI becoming more like the competition's just isn't a selling point. Not even to those who prefer it due to it being more familiar. Why not? Because the new UI represents, at best, a somewhat smaller barrier to entry, but that is meaningless if people aren't interested in what's on the other side of that barrier. They aren't...
Most people here think these UI changes are all about "them" (as consumers), and that these changes are being made in the interest of progress, usability, and a better user experience.
I doubt many at MS believe any of that. I'd bet most at MS view this as a step backwards in all of those areas. IMHO these changes have nothing to do with users and everything to do with developers, intended to facilitate single-source cross-platform app portability. It's also a good step towards making an eventual transition to an MS phone running Android less jarring, should it ever come to that. Obviously, neither of those are reasons MS could publicly admit to.


Know something, that we don’t? :p

You’ve got that right that; they sat on their laurels and became stagnant and what unique features?

Apart from the UI there aren’t any with WP 8.1 they have all been butchered for the poorly implemented app model.
I’m aware of that, which is why I said I feel that MS is hoping they have found a winning formula as they have been scrounging around the bottom of the barrel for too long now. Therefore something had to give. I imagine with Ballmer they would have ploughed away with what they were doing until the finally made headway whereas Satya is a more results orientated either that or he wants to be seen as a pro-active CEO as opposed to reactive (hence the large lay offs in the phone division months after the previous).

It’s easier to make a sale if people are interested in what you’re selling and with nothing to convince them to cross that barrier… it’s near an impossible sell.

That is most likely true but unfortunately there have been far too many bone headed decisions made along the years that just hampered growth and cannibalised WP sales (actions speak louder than words). If they had a balanced focus on developers, the enterprise and consumers from the get go then things would have been different.

Never the less I am somewhat optimistic about WP 10 (I'm not enamored by the 'new' design practises either just what we will finally get from a technical standpoint i.e - usb dual role - http://blogs.msdn.com/b/usbcoreblog...ew-in-windows-10-usb-dual-role-on-mobile.aspx), once the general public get hold of the final Wp10 SDK there should be a much clearer picture to what the future may bring. The WinHec documentations only give a partial glimpse (as things can change last minute).
 

a5cent

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Know something, that we don?t? :p).
My predictions regarding everything WP and RT related have been quite accurate over the years, including my most recent prediction where I "divined" what Nadella meant with "tough choices" (further layoffs and a renewed focus on a streamlined product portfolio), but with two or three exceptions, "know" is too strong a word. :)
Anyway, while I tend to agree with the overwhelming majority of your posts, here I'm just not sure what you are saying. It sounds like you are saying that MS failed to innovate and fumbled a few times too often (I agree), leaving MS with no choice but to "reinvent" their mobile UI (i.e. abandon metro and do as iOS does). I just don't see why those failures necessarily lead to this UI outcome.
IMHO MS needs:
a) more unique features that are easily marketable
b) more innovation
c) more differentiators
Removing most everything that was unique and innovative about WP's UI (rather than just fixing what was broken or adding what was missing), doesn't jive with that list. IMHO that's a clear indication the UI is headed in the wrong direction.
I could be convinced this UI has some potential benefits specifically for iOS and Android developers, provided MS introduces tools that can leverage those similarities for devs, but so far nobody in the media or MS is even discussing that angle...
 

TechFreak1

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My predictions regarding everything WP and RT related have been quite accurate over the years, including my most recent prediction where I "divined" what Nadella meant with "tough choices" (further layoffs and a renewed focus on a streamlined product portfolio), but with two or three exceptions, "know" is too strong a word. :)
Anyway, while I tend to agree with the overwhelming majority of your posts, here I'm just not sure what you are saying. It sounds like you are saying that MS failed to innovate and fumbled a few times too often (I agree), leaving MS with no choice but to "reinvent" their mobile UI (i.e. abandon metro and do as iOS does). I just don't see why those failures necessarily lead to this UI outcome.
IMHO MS needs:
a) more unique features that are easily marketable
b) more innovation
c) more differentiators
Removing most everything that was unique and innovative about WP's UI (rather than just fixing what was broken or adding what was missing), doesn't jive with that list. IMHO that's a clear indication the UI is headed in the wrong direction.
I could be convinced this UI has some potential benefits specifically for iOS and Android developers, provided MS introduces tools that can leverage those similarities for devs, but so far nobody in the media or MS is even discussing that angle...

Fair enough and Yup, in a nut shell spot on.

In regards to this UI conundrum... Microsoft always over reacts and tends to cull an entire jungle only to start a fresh from one meager sap for example WP7 didn't even have a single speck of enterprise functionality whereas WM did - (you would think both running CE would make it easier).

As opposed to methodically picking out the dead wood.

In a results orientated business or rather with a results orientated CEO, you can't keep doing the same thing over and over again thus losing money year-in / year-out in the process.

Something had to give and that is unfortunately the very design principles that drew a lot of people to Windows Phone. Like the saying goes, can't beat 'em then join 'em. If Android didn't command such a large market share I doubt they would have gone for the android-esque route; if this familiarity formulae doesn't work... I don't want to even think about what may happen next.

I imagine, under Ballmer this would no doubt would have been no different than what they did with Xbox - pour money in and stick to their guns until the the pit levels out.

I agree in regards to your last point however the main "bridge" tools project astoria (android) & project islandwood(ios) are not available to the general public yet. Furthermore there haven't been many leaks in the wild either which would explain why there hasn't been much talk in the media about this side of the spectrum. On the flip side, Microsoft is more than likely in "shut up and ship" mode with all hands on deck as the next few months are pretty damn important to them therefore they can't afford any minor hiccups PR wise.
 

colinkiama

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Ehmmm... On WP8.1 fonts were too large and necessitated way too much scrolling, which is why there is no single-handed usability issue on W10M??? Yup, makes complete sense... not.
I agree with your criticisms of the UI on WP8.1 (although I find how the W10M UI necessitates a lot of precision tapping all over the screen even more annoying).
I also agree with MS that almost nobody uses their phone with just one hand. Why? Because only 3% of smartphone users had a phone where UI elements were positioned in a way that made single-handed usage feasible.

Right now MS is slightly exaggerating when they say "nobody uses their phone single-handedly". Once WP users have all moved on to W10M, MS will be absolutely right however...
I never said there wasn't a single handed issue on windows 10 because of that, I was praising 8.1 the fact that it was soo easy to use with one hand because of the design but it also created problems.
 

white_Shadoww

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He is actually right though the design was amazing but the experience was annoying. Apps used such huge fonts so there wasn't that much space for content. Soooo much scrolllingggggggg. The worst part was the settings which they didn't update till 2015 with 8.1 GDR2 It took 5 years for them to fix the settings menu. 5 years!

Really? I never thought I'd need to write this here. Actually, I'm more amazed at no one ever thought, giving a font size control could solve the problem everyone describes. Personally I like the biggest fonts of WP8, some like the normal ones in the WP8.1 and some like even smaller. Instead, they changed the whole UI for the reasons best known to themselves, and chose to transfer the controls to the upper side giving a ridiculous reachability mode. I had actually decided not to reply to these threads as they don't really matter, but I couldn't really help. Because IMO, WP7 was the most thought out OS till date, this WM10 thingy or Android and iOS are the things people are just used to. Just this doesn't meant, it is better. What made WP7 and 8 and 8.1 a fail was less features and apps compared to the other OS. You can't really look at the 3% market share and blindly blame the UI for it. Remember when WP started it had literally no apps, still it got to a market share of 3%, I think that was because of the uniqueness of OS. Think, if Android lookalike is what people wanted, Firefox OS, or Tizen or Bada would succeed. Look at their marketshare. It's pathetically low. But, no one understands this, huh, not even Microsoft!
 

a5cent

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He said:
I don't see any major issue for single handed use in W10.
Which somebody disagreed with, to which you responded:
He is actually right though...
Now you're saying:
I never said there wasn't a single handed issue on windows 10 because...
Except you literally said he was right in saying so...

I don't know if you've changed your mind, or your post didn't reflect what you were actually thinking, but it's one or the other...

Let's call it a misunderstanding and move on...
 

a5cent

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Microsoft always over reacts and tends to cull an entire jungle only to start a fresh from one meagre sap.
Absolutely!

In a results orientated business or rather with a results orientated CEO, you can't keep doing the same thing over and over again.
Agree completely.

Something had to give and that is unfortunately the very design principles that...
This is where you lose me.

I think we both agree that MS throwing out their current UI paradigms and starting anew is precisely another example of the overreaction you mentioned. We also agree that something must give, but why is it the UI that is the best candidate for doing that "giving"? I don't think you've adequately answered that question.

I think you're taking that change in UI to represent far more of a change than it actually does.

From W10M on out, MS is restricting most of WP's UI to doing as iOS does, in most cases hopefully not worse, but unlikely ever any better. This represents the continued removal of differentiators and worse, further limits MS' ability to innovate in ways that are more meaningful than just aesthetics (if MS' app strategy requires them to be as similar to iOS as possible, they can't innovate beyond what iOS does). This is in fact exactly what MS has been doing, bit by bit, ever since WP8.0! Every major change starting with WP8.0 has been about:

a) removing differentiators that are unique to WP
b) adding concepts that are strongly inspired by iOS/Android and
c) backtracking on anything that might be unfamiliar to iOS/Android users.

Yes, W10M is introducing a different UI, but the underlying principles I just mentioned, the principles driving those changes, are the same ones that have been driving WP ever since WP8.0! These principles matter far more than the actual changes themselves. I think this begs the question why we should expect more of these type of changes, to have any more of a positive affect in this round, than they've had in the last few rounds?

What MS needs is not a change in UI, but a change in guiding principles! Rather than more of the above, MS needs to be bold, provide inspirational solutions, and have the balls to plot their own path without always meekly looking towards Apple and Google! That would be an actual change, and something WP hasn't actually tried since WP7.

On the flip side, Microsoft is more than likely in "shut up and ship" mode with all hands on deck as the next few months are pretty damn important to them therefore they can't afford any minor hiccups PR wise.

Which would be the same mistake they've made before. It was their shut up and ship ideology which, in part, contributed to them not being able to hear the markets reaction to W8 and basically sank it before it even hit the market.

I agree in regards to your last point however the main "bridge" tools project astoria (android) & project islandwood(ios) are not available to the general public yet. Furthermore there haven't been many leaks in the wild either which would explain why there hasn't been much talk in the media about this side of the spectrum.

I was not referring to Astoria or Islandwood. Both of those require the source code of either an iOS app or an Android app as a starting point, from which you can derive a WP app. IMHO neither of them are important enough to legitimize these UI changes.

I'm talking about the ability to write a single app, in one language, with one library, from which you can directly compile a native app for any of the three platforms. The existence of that type of technology within MS could convince me that these UI changes are worth it. Short of that, I'd say these UI changes are more likely an inconsequential waste of engineering efforts.
 
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Spectrum90

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Using the UI as a differentiator is really stupid. The UI has to be transparent to the user, hopefully without any learning curve. People don't buy a smartphone for the UI, only a geek would do that. The only reason to diverge from the dominant paradigms is the introduction of a big innovation, for example, the iPhone.

Besides, Metro is a poorly designed UI better suited for feature phones.
 

white_Shadoww

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Using the UI as a differentiator is really stupid. The UI has to be transparent to the user, hopefully without any learning curve. People don't buy a smartphone for the UI, only a geek would do that. The only reason to diverge from the dominant paradigms is the introduction of a big innovation, for example, the iPhone.

Besides, Metro is a poorly designed UI better suited for feature phones.

Well as long as I know people, that's like 22 years of my life, I know that people tend to attract to the things that look pretty!
 

Snowy Nokia

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Love how I see this thread getting heated! But let's get back to the basics...

UI/UX.
What can we, the community can suggest and discuss methods of better implementations of our up an coming mobile OS at its currently state of course.
Hamburgers NOT going away it seems so battling against it ain't going to help.
What ideas you/we suggest and request via windows insider program will help.
Ellipsis, pivot, panorama, and app bar still exists across the OS currently it seems but just differently.

Why fight it? I say challenge ourselves and Microsoft for a better experience.

I'll start off FIRST(with more to come) with this:
Hamburger plus ellipsis....use it together, for example: Hamburger IS not one handed accessible but ellipsis "..." IS.
I'd personally like it to work together.
Allow ellipsis"..." as a toggle to open our hamburger menu hence "reachability"
I currently will not accept a swipe method for our hamburger menu due to the panorama use is still widely used across the OS and native apps.

What are your feedback!
 

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