04-15-2011 08:39 PM
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  1. spitothec's Avatar
    As this site's self-proclaimed #1 Microsoft critic, I figured I'll start the convo. If you haven't already read this, brace yourself. This is depressing.

    Phone updates: process and timing

    First and foremost, this blog post is about two or three months late.

    So what I gathered is -

    He says part of his role is to post blog's to "questions or concerns—and tell you what useful stuff an update is bringing", and in the same blog post, he failed to answer any questions that haven't already been answered, rectify any concerns, and tell us really anything useful.

    He says there's speculation about carriers blocking updates, then doesn't say if that speculation is true or false.. In fact, he says that carriers DO ask for specific dates and update blocks so they can be bundled.. Joe Belfiore has already said carriers can block updates until the following update is released.. I personally think manufacturers and carriers have FAR more control over these updates than Microsoft wants us to think.

    He says this is in no way going to push Mango back, but gives no ETA on Mango and no reason as to why NoDo is two months late. That really pumps me full of confidence.

    Other than that they expect issues, there's no real reason given for staggering updates. They don't stagger Windows updates, and I'm still trying to understand why the phone would be any different. He states it's so they can correct problems "quickly".. and I think "quickly" along with it's definition should be plastered on a wall at the WP7 labs, as he clearly doesn't understand the meanining of the word.

    "Delivering regular updates to your phone is a key part of our innovation plans." This was a slap in the face. Nothing more, nothing less.

    .. and the most painful, they don't plan to deliver NoDo in the second half of March.. Oh no, they plan to "start delivering" NoDo in the latter half of March.. I took this as an excuse line for them being able to push it back to April, if not later.. but then again, at this point, wasn't that already expected?

    Ugh.

    P.S. I'm still shocked no one is talking about Micro SD cards.
    03-11-2011 03:29 PM
  2. kalldrexx's Avatar
    Not sure what you are/were expecting. They confirmed that they are holding up the update due to having a lot of bugs with it. Would you rather them release it with bugs now or have it stable later? I have a feeling you will complain either way.

    It's a different upgrade process from WM6.5, and it's different than PC upgrades. It also includes a lot of backend code that isn't visible (Copy and Paste is the only visible change) so it's not like C&P is the sole reason it's being blocked.

    MS isn't blocking this update for ****s and giggles.....

    *edit*
    Also this shouldn't affect Mango. Almost all software companies that have a constantly updating product have two teams, a Production team (working on bug fixes and critical issues) and a new development team (e.g. For Mango and post Mango updates that I would guarantee are already in the works). There's no reason this delay is affecting Mango

    *edit #2*

    On more thing. Staggered updates aren't uncommon. Facebook does it all the time to make sure no quality issues crop up (that's why some features you will read about days before you can access them). It's a good way to be able to stop any potential issues before they get too widespread. It's not a technical issue, it's a damage control issue.
    03-11-2011 04:41 PM
  3. cdook's Avatar
    The things I got out of it were we can expect this update in late March and mango is still expected in Fall 2010. I think that's a pretty good update. I think everyone can point the finger at Samsung for NoDo being delayed.

    I do agree that he didn't answer my concerns over whether or not carriers can block the updates. All he basically said was all phones will get all the updates at some point. I'm wondering how long a carrier would be able to block a major update. Would Microsoft release a small bug fix release a month after so that everyone gets the update? Or are they going to try to get the major updates out to everyone after negotiating a timetable for the carriers to test the updates?

    I really wish the phone industry was more like the PC industry. My ISP doesn't have to sign off on a Windows PC update before I can get it. Of course carriers probably are afraid Microsoft will roll out an update that will cause the phones to send constant data, taking down their networks.
    03-11-2011 05:25 PM
  4. Averry's Avatar
    I agree with mgarcia.

    They are floundering.

    I don't know what they expected, but this isn't nearly the first 6 months of the product being available that should have happened.
    03-11-2011 06:43 PM
  5. Averry's Avatar
    Not sure what you are/were expecting. They confirmed that they are holding up the update due to having a lot of bugs with it. Would you rather them release it with bugs now or have it stable later? I have a feeling you will complain either way.

    It's a different upgrade process from WM6.5, and it's different than PC upgrades. It also includes a lot of backend code that isn't visible (Copy and Paste is the only visible change) so it's not like C&P is the sole reason it's being blocked.

    MS isn't blocking this update for ****s and giggles.....

    *edit*
    Also this shouldn't affect Mango. Almost all software companies that have a constantly updating product have two teams, a Production team (working on bug fixes and critical issues) and a new development team (e.g. For Mango and post Mango updates that I would guarantee are already in the works). There's no reason this delay is affecting Mango
    At this point, Mango is most certainly on schedule for what appears to be a unannounced date. So of course it's on schedule. :)

    That said.....who's to say if that wont' get held up?

    Again.....why won't the release more incremental updates...especially if the carriers want bundling.....split up IE9, and multi-tasking, and twitter integration. Why are all of these important features getting stacked together into one major update?

    Now...yes, might all come aligned into one date as far as their programming schedule...but YOU CANNOT tell me that adding Twitter support is gonna take as long as adding multi-tasking.
    spitothec likes this.
    03-11-2011 06:48 PM
  6. spitothec's Avatar
    Not sure what you are/were expecting. They confirmed that they are holding up the update due to having a lot of bugs with it. Would you rather them release it with bugs now or have it stable later? I have a feeling you will complain either way.

    On more thing. Staggered updates aren't uncommon. Facebook does it all the time to make sure no quality issues crop up (that's why some features you will read about days before you can access them). It's a good way to be able to stop any potential issues before they get too widespread. It's not a technical issue, it's a damage control issue.
    Why is having bugs now or waiting for stability my only two options? I would like to take option three, a stable update two months ago like we were promised.

    Facebook is a half-billion user website running on every browser known to man on every computer known to man, with a relatively new update crew. Microsoft has a tens-of-thousands user base with decades of history updating software and a more experienced back end. There's no excuse for them needing to use a staggered roll out to find more bugs. There shouldn't be any bugs. They're the largest software company on earth for god's sake.
    03-11-2011 11:39 PM
  7. Averry's Avatar
    Paul Thurrott was right when he said, out of all the people with Windows Phone right now.....they are the most fanatical. They are early adopters who took a chance on a new product, AMONGST far more mature competition....

    So, as many of you have made clear, you're down to deal with the 1.0 issues....but all some people want, especially those who are most keen to the situation that Microsoft is in, is for Microsoft to show that not only do the mean business, but that they are even capable of hanging with the competition.

    Tell me folks, other than launching the product, and successfully gaining a solid initial developer base....has Microsoft succeeding in doing other thing other than talking?

    This is just tough love.
    03-12-2011 01:00 AM
  8. Verizon Hopeful's Avatar
    At this point, I am so tired of WP7, Im rapidly losing interest and I dont even have a WP7 phone yet (thanks to Microsofts exclusion of Verizon and Sprint from the rollout). All of this ado over an update that seems to contain very little in the way of substantive, user-oriented fixes. All Microsoft ever talks about for NoDo is copy and paste capability, better Marketplace search and other key improvements. Does anyone really consider these trivial fixes to be worth a wait of six months after the rollout of WP7? Really??

    I looked over the 143 comments to the referenced Windows Phone Blog post. The majority of comments reflect great dissatisfaction with Microsoft for the way theyve handled the update issue in particular and WP7 in general. I dont blame them. My favorite is the issue Ive been mentioning for a while now in these forums, where Microsoft made a great point of saying, "Delivering regular updates to your phone is a key part of our innovation plans." If thats a key part of their innovation plans, its clear based on actual performance that those plans have been shelved and Microsoft will NOT be innovating.

    So, I agree with OP @mgarcia that the post was too little too late and essentially pointless. Unfortunately, I think Ill be using my Touch Pro 2 for a long time to come.
    spitothec likes this.
    03-12-2011 01:52 AM
  9. cdook's Avatar
    @Verizon Hopeful people complaining on the Internet? Say it isn't so! People use that blog to vent whatever frustration they have that day. I'm sure if Apple had blog posts with unmoderated comments you'd see people complaining about the shortcomings of that phone. WP7 is just a phone... If it doesn't do what you want it to do then don't get one. Same goes to Android and iPhone.

    What's hilarious to me is people complain things get stale, yet when a company tweaks something a minor way it's the end of the world. Look at every time Facebook makes a change. A million person group is created that hates the change. You're not going to see a radical change to the OS every few months, which is what these people seem to want... Until that change is made and then they complain about it.
    03-12-2011 03:26 AM
  10. Averry's Avatar
    @Verizon Hopeful people complaining on the Internet? Say it isn't so! People use that blog to vent whatever frustration they have that day. I'm sure if Apple had blog posts with unmoderated comments you'd see people complaining about the shortcomings of that phone. WP7 is just a phone... If it doesn't do what you want it to do then don't get one. Same goes to Android and iPhone.

    What's hilarious to me is people complain things get stale, yet when a company tweaks something a minor way it's the end of the world. Look at every time Facebook makes a change. A million person group is created that hates the change. You're not going to see a radical change to the OS every few months, which is what these people seem to want... Until that change is made and then they complain about it.
    What's radical about bug fixes and iterative feature updates?
    03-12-2011 09:55 AM
  11. kalldrexx's Avatar
    Why is having bugs now or waiting for stability my only two options? I would like to take option three, a stable update two months ago like we were promised.
    Because we live in the real world where this isn't an option. For whatever reason, MS has not been able to get NoDo as stable as they have wanted in order to release it. Apple gets away with this by not announcing updates until they are only a few weeks from releasing it, and Google gets away with it by releasing it for their handsets only, which is usually months before non-Google handsets get it.

    My Motorola Droid still hasn't been updated to fix the SMS bug (where it sends a sms to someone else not who you told it to send it to). Who knows when (or if) it will get the Gingerbread update that Google released months ago. I could get it now if I rooted and hacked it, but I can't get it officially even though it's been released.

    iOS 4.1 bricked my girlfriend's 3GS. In the real world, things happen and MS already has egg on their face from the pre-update blowing up on some phones. Thus they are trying to get everything ironed out as best they can so that doesn't happen upon the NoDo rollout. Thus you have 2 options, buggy update or late update. I'll take the late update.

    Facebook is a half-billion user website running on every browser known to man on every computer known to man, with a relatively new update crew. Microsoft has a tens-of-thousands user base with decades of history updating software and a more experienced back end. There's no excuse for them needing to use a staggered roll out to find more bugs. There shouldn't be any bugs. They're the largest software company on earth for god's sake.
    Facebook is a different story entirely. They are a web site only, which is a lot easier to roll out, find bugs, and roll back changes. If you read up on how they roll out changes, they have 8 (or so, forgot the exact number) of rollout stages. Each stage is evaluated based on any bugs that are found and if any are found, it's rolled back in an instant. Thus the chance of you actually seeing the bug is minute and all you will see is an error message one time, and all it takes to have it fixed is a browser refresh.

    This doesn't even compare to the complexity of updating a phone OS, which is why Carriers have a big say in the QA process of phone updates.
    03-12-2011 03:58 PM
  12. jimski's Avatar
    Bugs have probably nothing to do with Microsoft's part in NoDo. But I believe the OEM's are adding on a firmware update which is where the problem lies. Trying to pull that off without hard resetting you device (as with WM) sounds like a challenge bigger than most expected.

    Sent from my HTC Surround using Board Express
    03-12-2011 04:22 PM
  13. spitothec's Avatar
    @KallDrexx I understand that. I've had or have every mobile OS aside from WebOS so I'm fully aware of how the industry works. My issue is how do you, or anyone, find a bi-annual update process in ANY way acceptable? No mobile OS since Danger 5+ years ago with their Sidekicks have had updates this infrequently. It's 2011, bi-monthly patches are the norm, and an unfortunate necessity for having phones this advanced.

    Now that I think about it, maybe their aquisition of Danger has something to do with this...
    03-12-2011 05:28 PM
  14. Jay Bennett's Avatar
    Again.....why won't the release more incremental updates...especially if the carriers want bundling.....split up IE9, and multi-tasking, and twitter integration. Why are all of these important features getting stacked together into one major update?
    My guess? A thorough testing period is expensive, working on a single build containing several updates means you can be more thorough, that's the norm for enterprise development
    03-12-2011 06:52 PM
  15. Averry's Avatar
    My guess? A thorough testing period is expensive, working on a single build containing several updates means you can be more thorough, that's the norm for enterprise development
    You know what's the norm for enterprise speeds in the consumer market?




    A fast death.
    spitothec likes this.
    03-12-2011 07:58 PM
  16. Jay Bennett's Avatar
    You know what's the norm for enterprise speeds in the consumer market?

    A fast death.
    As well as a secure platform, personally I'd rather wait for updates in the knowledge that all of the personal information on my phone will likely be better protected rather than be using the Android marketplace under fear that a flaw in the frequently-changing codebase will be exploited and my data stolen by malicious apps
    03-13-2011 11:51 AM
  17. spitothec's Avatar
    RIM has the most secure OS and still releases updates about every two weeks???
    03-13-2011 12:00 PM
  18. kalldrexx's Avatar
    Rim isn't really secure because its secure, its secur because the internal API is unknown a d mysterious. The pwn2own contests show that.
    03-13-2011 12:06 PM
  19. spitothec's Avatar
    pwn2own shows what again? That they lost some security because they started using a Webkit browser in 6.0, or that it's still the most secure phone on the market while being updated almost too frequently? I remember when I bought my Torch I was updating the OS six weeks in a row, strangely always on Thursdays IIRC.
    03-13-2011 12:12 PM
  20. Verizon Hopeful's Avatar
    As well as a secure platform, personally I'd rather wait for updates in the knowledge that all of the personal information on my phone will likely be better protected rather than be using the Android marketplace under fear that a flaw in the frequently-changing codebase will be exploited and my data stolen by malicious apps
    Jay, I hate to say it but either you've been drinking too much of Microsoft's Kool-aid or the personal information protection bar has really been set to much lower standards these days.

    Look, anyone should understand that the absolute best way to protect personal information is for it to reside in as few places as possible. Microsoft evidently threw that philosophy overboard with WP7 when they eliminated any possible way to transfer personal data directly from your private computer to your private smartphone. Now, ANY personal data that you want to carry around with you and have accessible on your phone has to transit "the cloud" where "cloud" server owners have no obligation to protect the privacy of your data. (They may say that they have an obligation to protect your data, but it's doubtful that you would win any lawsuit over a data privacy breach -- after all, "it's the Internet" and why would you expect privacy anyway??.)

    I don't think you need to look for "malicious apps" to steal your data. The issue could be as simple as uncaring, lazy server owners who don't have data security as a real priority. Have you actually read the data privacy clauses associated with the servers where your data has to "rest" before getting to your phone?
    03-13-2011 12:41 PM
  21. Jay Bennett's Avatar
    RIM has the most secure OS and still releases updates about every two weeks???
    Slight exaggeration there, I don't claim any knowledge on the Blackberry OS but I do know that there is a degree of fragmentation, not every device is running the same version of the OS (or is able to upgrade to the same version) which is what Microsoft is trying to do here, a unified OS version across multiple hardware variations, that's never been done before to my knowledge.
    03-13-2011 12:42 PM
  22. kalldrexx's Avatar
    Summer down, not talking about updates with RIM. If you read the commentary from the hackers, a lot of the security comes from BB's obscure and unknown API, not necessary because its code is secure.
    03-13-2011 12:43 PM
  23. Jay Bennett's Avatar
    @Verizon Hopeful, you make some very good points, and trust in storing things like credit card numbers on secure servers is difficult because ultimately they all have flaws (look at the
    Heartlands Payment Systems breach from 2008/2009).

    My point was that by not having a fragmented platform that's constantly updated, all the testing goes into one build of the OS source, hopefully (in an ideal world of course) providing a more secure/stable release. What I'm saying is that would you rather receive frequent updates as lots of security holes are patched (Android v2.2.2 fixing the rageagainstthecage exploit which was used by the malicious DreamDroid apps) or a slower, steady update stream which should avoid it?
    03-13-2011 12:51 PM
  24. Verizon Hopeful's Avatar
    What I really want from Microsoft for WP7 is frequent updates, period, regardless of whether they are patching security holes, fixing bugs or adding in basic features that were left out of the initial release. As a consumer, I don't really care that "oh so much testing is required on all platforms and devices" before they can release an update. Microsoft simply needs to figure out a way to provide frequent surgical updates for which an avalanche of potential side effects don't have to be tested. No excuses. It's 2011. It's time for Microsoft to deliver. That's what I want!
    03-13-2011 01:19 PM
  25. Averry's Avatar
    You know...it can't really be ALL that hard.

    Seriously.....Android 2.3 came out what, in December? I have a perfectly stable ROM on my Incredible.

    It doesn't matter that I had to root the phone, all that matters is that a few people took one ROM, and made it usable on one Phone. Microsoft has virtually the same ROM's on all of their phones, it should be pretty simple for them to test it and implement it.

    There's obviously a multiple layered fail going on here, no doubt in my mind.
    03-14-2011 12:25 AM
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