10-14-2011 03:48 PM
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tools
  1. starblade876's Avatar
    To add to what sirtwist was saying, not only does having multiple instances allow you to start from the beginning of an app, it also allows apps without tabs (i.e., non-Internet Explorer apps) to have a form of tabs. For example, say you want to compare two people's text message conversations for whatever reason; instead of constantly backing out and then selecting the other person over and over, you can have two instances of the Messaging hub open to each person.

    My analogy with the bookmark fits the best, I think. If you put a bookmark in a book and you put the book down to do something else, would you open the book from the beginning and expect to see where you left off or would you open the book from where the bookmark is? It's a matter of using your tools correctly.

    That said, I will agree that it would be a good thing if WP had the ability to save SMS/MMS drafts, but that still has nothing to do with the fast app switcher.
    Last edited by starblade876; 10-13-2011 at 08:22 PM.
    10-12-2011 07:49 PM
  2. power5's Avatar
    Every OS handles features in different ways. If you like the features of iOS better, then I suggest going with them. No OS is perfect for anyone. There will always be small gripes by any user. iPhones and Windows phones prove that ram or cpu or any other single hardware item will not determine end user performance. What I find slightly amusing is that apple is needing to add more power to their device to keep their performance similar to the competition. Mac pundits have always made fun of windows computers for needing more power to be comparable to macs. So iOS is now more resource intensive for practically the same experience as wp7.
    theman60099 likes this.
    10-12-2011 08:28 PM
  3. jimski's Avatar
    I don't think I have ever even used 50-100MB of RAM yet and we have 468 at device boot so that's plenty, want them closed just wait for them to get pushed out. duhh!
    Tell you what. Get someone from Microsoft to state that tombstoning/fast app switching has zero effect on resources or battery and I will let it go. Just because it may be a better solution than Android, for example, it does not mean that it is without its own issues. Btw, my "bad" habit came from living with WinMo since the beginning.

    Sent from my HTC Surround using Board Express
    10-12-2011 09:38 PM
  4. theman60099's Avatar
    Tell you what. Get someone from Microsoft to state that tombstoning/fast app switching has zero effect on resources or battery and I will let it go. Just because it may be a better solution than Android, for example, it does not mean that it is without its own issues. Btw, my "bad" habit came from living with WinMo since the beginning.

    Sent from my HTC Surround using Board Express
    I'm also coming from WM. frequent closing and reopening of apps can have a much worse effect on battery than tombstoning and resuming them, because ur putting the processor to more work.
    10-12-2011 09:48 PM
  5. species5618's Avatar
    Your stated scenario is very misleading, since it's your own fault. Tapping a tile on the start screen or an app from the app list ALWAYS starts a new instance of the app, killing any previous instances. ALWAYS.

    It was a conscious design decision on Microsoft's part so that phone users always know that if they want to start an app over at the beginning, they can simply hit the Start button and then start the app again.

    If you want to go back to your messaging screen where you have already been typing a message, you have to tap and hold the back button and select it.

    It may not be what you want, but it's consistent. It works that way for every single app.

    As a developer, I can assure you that what Microsoft says regarding Fast App Switching is absolutely true. I can see it happen with my apps when I'm testing them on my phone ... I can watch my app go into the background and wake back up when you go into the app switching screen and tap it. I can see my app taken out of the back stack and completely closed when I open a bunch of other apps.

    I use Exchange services, watch video podcasts, browse, etc. on my Samsung Focus on a daily basis ... i.e. I'm a heavy user. And I make it from 8am to midnight EVERY SINGLE DAY without running out of battery. There's absolutely no reason to worry about app memory/processor management. Windows Phone does it right. Use your phone, don't worry about it.
    I don't see why it's misleading. Are you saying there's no use case where a user might have more than 5 apps running? If so, I would be looking forward to your reaction when MS inevitably extend the limit. Because based on your logic, it would be a totally useless bonehead move.

    There are plenty of Android developers swear by their OS too yet advanced task killer was consistently one of most downloaded apps. The difference is I have control there. Here I have to trust a company who shall we say does not have the best track record.

    Every OS handles features in different ways. If you like the features of iOS better, then I suggest going with them. No OS is perfect for anyone. There will always be small gripes by any user. iPhones and Windows phones prove that ram or cpu or any other single hardware item will not determine end user performance. What I find slightly amusing is that apple is needing to add more power to their device to keep their performance similar to the competition. Mac pundits have always made fun of windows computers for needing more power to be comparable to macs. So iOS is now more resource intensive for practically the same experience as wp7.
    I don't like features of iOS better. I was simply saying wp7 still have room to improve in terms of multitasking and it's hardly the best multitasking around. I actually don't like iOS's multitasking all that much. Yet iOS still beats wp7 in terms of multitasking functionality.

    As for adding more power to their device. It's foremost a sales pitch than anything else. iphone 4 already out performances wp7 phones by a wide margin based on benchmarks and it's certainly a more smooth experience than Android, but higher specs make people want to buy again. That's why they sold over a million iphone 4s over 24 hrs. Apple is a hardware company and it needs to continue selling new hardware. It does not mean iOS is less efficient.
    10-12-2011 10:44 PM
  6. power5's Avatar
    As for adding more power to their device. It's foremost a sales pitch than anything else. iphone 4 already out performances wp7 phones by a wide margin based on benchmarks and it's certainly a more smooth experience than Android, but higher specs make people want to buy again. That's why they sold over a million iphone 4s over 24 hrs. Apple is a hardware company and it needs to continue selling new hardware. It does not mean iOS is less efficient.
    Siri now only works on A5 devices. Does not work on all iOS5 devices. That is what the power is for. The GPU power is a nice added bonus, but its only there because the CPU was doubled. Make the CPU dual core and I guess the GPU becomes dual core.
    10-12-2011 10:56 PM
  7. species5618's Avatar
    what im saying is that iOS devices have less RAM than wp7 devices.
    That's not what you said. I asked why do you think wp7's multitasking is better than iOS's, you said wp7 gives you more spaces on skydrive, before you said anything about RAM. So how does more skydrive space support your assertion that wp7 has the best multitasking around?

    Not to mention you are wrong again about iOS devices' specs. The last iphone that had 256MB was iphone 3GS. Plus, if as you claimed that suspected apps don't use much RAM anyway, why would you use that to support your claim that wp7 has the best multitasking around?

    Maybe it's better than WM's, but don't make claims that you can't support, especially since you seems to know nothing about the competitions.
    10-12-2011 11:00 PM
  8. species5618's Avatar
    Siri now only works on A5 devices. Does not work on all iOS5 devices. That is what the power is for. The GPU power is a nice added bonus, but its only there because the CPU was doubled. Make the CPU dual core and I guess the GPU becomes dual core.
    Maybe, maybe not. We will have to see whether people will hack iphone 4 and get Siri working. Note that Siri does not work on iPad2 either, despite the A5 chip. Apple also disabled multitasking gestures on ipad 1, yet it has been working fine for ages. I highly doubt it's because iPad 1 does not have the hardware to support the feature. More likely Apple wants to make a few quick bucks much like wp7 does not allow wifi hotspot on older phones by default. It's a stupid decision on Apple's part, but they are getting arrogant. Kind of early for MS to get arrogant and ignore user inputs.
    10-12-2011 11:06 PM
  9. power5's Avatar
    Hmm, thought I read it would work on A5 devices. Must have just been a rumor site. My bad. They do want cloud to sync all apple devices though, so if I am using my ipad2 and want to set up a meeting, wouldn't it make sense to be able to do that on the pad instead of getting my phone out?
    10-12-2011 11:16 PM
  10. species5618's Avatar
    Hmm, thought I read it would work on A5 devices. Must have just been a rumor site. My bad. They do want cloud to sync all apple devices though, so if I am using my ipad2 and want to set up a meeting, wouldn't it make sense to be able to do that on the pad instead of getting my phone out?
    Exactly. I would think it's extreme useful for business people carrying an iPad around. It's still beta though, so maybe it will come later.

    Lucky you got an iPad2. I am really mad with Apple for neutering multitask gestures on iPad1. That's the only thing got me excited about iOS5 since I just love how touchpad does it.
    10-12-2011 11:36 PM
  11. Rico's Avatar
    The only reason I want to close apps is because sometimes I want to jump back to an app and the app switcher only has five spots which may be taken up with instances of Messaging or IE. I don't know or care how much RAM my apps are using. I don't ever want to go back to the days of having to manage my phone on that low a level.

    Frankly, I think devs should write apps with the expectation that the user will exit them at any moment. I can exit OneNote now and this post that I'm using it to compose (because Board Express sucks) will be saved, seamlessly. Palm got this right with Palm OS over a decade ago. On that note, if there's only going to be five apps/instances in the switcher, the OS should realize that use Mehdoh a lot and allow me to jump back into it even if I launch it from the home screen. Having to wait for it to load in memory because it's no longer one of the "Final Five" is annoying. To it's credit, the animations used to compose the GUI of various apps hides this load a bit. At least it feels like something is happening.
    Last edited by Rico; 10-13-2011 at 01:13 AM.
    10-13-2011 12:19 AM
  12. DanglingPointer's Avatar
    @species5618, I have quoted your comment about multi-tasking discrepancies at Updates: Now delivering to Omnia 7 on SFR
    Being a good citizen of wp-network, you can submit your idea about ideal multi-tasking topology here: Customer Feedback for Windows Phone (which is, in fact, an official website to submit your suggestions for wp). Please search the website if someone else has already submitted the same idea and vote for it or else submit it for the first time. In either case, please post the link to the suggestion so we can vote for it too. I guess this is the best we can do.
    10-13-2011 12:04 PM
  13. Rhody#WP's Avatar
    Your stated scenario is very misleading, since it's your own fault. Tapping a tile on the start screen or an app from the app list ALWAYS starts a new instance of the app, killing any previous instances. ALWAYS.
    I agree with you except for the instance where you select a toast notification. In that case, you don't explicitly tell it to create a new instance.
    10-13-2011 12:30 PM
  14. starblade876's Avatar
    I don't see why it's misleading. Are you saying there's no use case where a user might have more than 5 apps running? If so, I would be looking forward to your reaction when MS inevitably extend the limit. Because based on your logic, it would be a totally useless bonehead move.

    There are plenty of Android developers swear by their OS too yet advanced task killer was consistently one of most downloaded apps. The difference is I have control there. Here I have to trust a company who shall we say does not have the best track record.
    He's saying it's misleading because you're doing it wrong. As I said, it's about using your tools correctly. You can hammer a screw into the wall, but that decreases the effectiveness of the screw. In your scenario, you pushed an app out of the switcher to create a 2nd instance of another app because you aren't used to using the fast app switcher as it's meant to be used.

    As for your trust issues, if you really don't trust that apps in the switcher aren't running, then take your control and test it yourself. See if there's any significant difference in battery life between having 5 apps always in the switcher vs. having no apps in the switcher. If you've used your device before Mango and you don't have any hardware/software bugs or a large amount of apps using background services, you should already know the answer.
    theman60099 likes this.
    10-13-2011 01:35 PM
  15. power5's Avatar
    Exactly. I would think it's extreme useful for business people carrying an iPad around. It's still beta though, so maybe it will come later.

    Lucky you got an iPad2. I am really mad with Apple for neutering multitask gestures on iPad1. That's the only thing got me excited about iOS5 since I just love how touchpad does it.
    Oh god no, I do not have an iPad2. I am trying to get away from apple devices. I hate itunes and its grip on everything I do. Itunes is the Slowest program to start I have ever experienced. I have no idea what takes so long to launch that program. Its almost instantaneous on my work Mac Pro. On my PC I can almost watch the minute hand on my clock to time its launch.
    theman60099 likes this.
    10-13-2011 02:56 PM
  16. theman60099's Avatar
    He's saying it's misleading because you're doing it wrong. As I said, it's about using your tools correctly. You can hammer a screw into the wall, but that decreases the effectiveness of the screw. In your scenario, you pushed an app out of the switcher to create a 2nd instance of another app because you aren't used to using the fast app switcher as it's meant to be used.

    As for your trust issues, if you really don't trust that apps in the switcher aren't running, then take your control and test it yourself. See if there's any significant difference in battery life between having 5 apps always in the switcher vs. having no apps in the switcher. If you've used your device before Mango and you don't have any hardware/software bugs or a large amount of apps using background services, you should already know the answer.
    he's just a caverncola that's y he can't understand the multitasking. I'd also like to see these "benchmarks" he's talking about.
    10-13-2011 03:16 PM
  17. species5618's Avatar
    He's saying it's misleading because you're doing it wrong. As I said, it's about using your tools correctly. You can hammer a screw into the wall, but that decreases the effectiveness of the screw. In your scenario, you pushed an app out of the switcher to create a 2nd instance of another app because you aren't used to using the fast app switcher as it's meant to be used.

    As for your trust issues, if you really don't trust that apps in the switcher aren't running, then take your control and test it yourself. See if there's any significant difference in battery life between having 5 apps always in the switcher vs. having no apps in the switcher. If you've used your device before Mango and you don't have any hardware/software bugs or a large amount of apps using background services, you should already know the answer.
    My question remains, do you think there's no use case to have more than 5 apps running? If so, then there's no point for Microsoft to extend that limit. Somehow, I doubt Microsoft agrees with you.

    New instance starting is also not as consistent as the other poster claims. For example, IE does not start a new instance, neither does market. Messaging does, but only if you are in conversation window. For example, if you have one instance in online friends, and open messaging again, it would reuse the old instance rather than start a new one in threads. Settings generally takes up two slots in the task switcher. Not only it's unrealistic to expect the user to remember how many apps have been opened to avoid lost works, there's no easy way of doing it anyway. If the "right" way is to get the task switcher up every time you want to launch an app just to make sure older apps are not pushed off the list and to have a mental list of which apps would take how many slots, then I'd say MS chose the "wrong" way.

    As for resources, idle apps use resources for sure, even only to remember the status of the app. I doubt it will impact battery all that much with only 5 apps running even if it was not done right (my android phone can last full day easily with more than 10 apps running at any given time.). The arbitrary limitation of 5 apps makes me wonder whether Microsoft know its suspended app management is not as tight as it claims. I suspect they still uses RAM even if they don't use the processor, which would cause performance degradation if you keep too many of them around.

    wp7 doesn't even have true user multitasking (neither does iOS) let alone the best multitasking around. I understand it's a conscious design choice, but the current implementation is clearly still a work in progress. I don't mind it all that much since wp7 has strength in other areas, I simply think it has a lot of room for improvement in this particular area and I am sure Microsoft is hard at work.
    10-13-2011 03:33 PM
  18. species5618's Avatar
    he's just a caverncola that's y he can't understand the multitasking. I'd also like to see these "benchmarks" he's talking about.
    If you don't know how to use google (or bing if you like), then you can "would like" all you want. I have no problem with you living in the fantasy world where iOS devices have less RAM and wp7 has the best multitasking around because it has more space in skydrive. :)
    10-13-2011 03:41 PM
  19. theman60099's Avatar
    If you don't know how to use google (or bing if you like), then you can "would like" all you want. I have no problem with you living in the fantasy world where iOS devices have less RAM and wp7 has the best multitasking around because it has more space in skydrive. :)
    I asked u to provide simple evidence to support ur claims. now im just going to assume that ur talking out of ur culo.
    10-13-2011 03:47 PM
  20. species5618's Avatar
    I asked u to provide simple evidence to support ur claims. now im just going to assume that ur talking out of ur culo.
    To be honest, I don't care what you assume until you learn to have a civilized conversation without all the weird name calling. iOS 5's benchmarks are flooding the Internet, if you don't know how to search then I am not about to help you.
    10-13-2011 03:53 PM
  21. theman60099's Avatar
    To be honest, I don't care what you assume until you learn to have a civilized conversation without all the weird name calling. iOS 5's benchmarks are flooding the Internet, if you don't know how to search then I am not about to help you.
    y should I have to search? YOU were the one to bring it up.
    10-13-2011 03:57 PM
  22. sirtwist's Avatar
    I don't see why it's misleading. Are you saying there's no use case where a user might have more than 5 apps running? If so, I would be looking forward to your reaction when MS inevitably extend the limit. Because based on your logic, it would be a totally useless bonehead move.

    There are plenty of Android developers swear by their OS too yet advanced task killer was consistently one of most downloaded apps. The difference is I have control there. Here I have to trust a company who shall we say does not have the best track record.
    I didn't say anything about the number of apps running. I was talking about opening an app from the start screen launching a new instance of the app.

    As for the number of apps, it doesn't really matter to me that much. I rarely need to access more than the last 2 or 3 apps ... Sometimes I'll be watching a podcast and then need to bounce out to check email or look something up on the web and then back to the podcast. I've been using Mango for a long time and I haven't yet run into a scenario where I wanted to get to something in the back stack and it was gone.

    Of course, I recognize that everyone is different. There may very well be some people out there who say that 5 apps isn't enough ... but I would imagine that the vast majority have no problems with it as it is. And when you're targeting a mass consumer market with a product, that's your goal ... satisfy the vast majority of customers.

    Unfortunately, the 99% who are totally satisfied with your product usually aren't the ones you hear from. It's the 1% who want something more or something different that are the ones you see posting all over the internet. :)
    10-13-2011 10:16 PM
  23. power5's Avatar
    Do tabs in the browser count as apps in the app switcher?
    10-13-2011 10:41 PM
  24. sirtwist's Avatar
    New instance starting is also not as consistent as the other poster claims. For example, IE does not start a new instance, neither does market. Messaging does, but only if you are in conversation window. For example, if you have one instance in online friends, and open messaging again, it would reuse the old instance rather than start a new one in threads. Settings generally takes up two slots in the task switcher. Not only it's unrealistic to expect the user to remember how many apps have been opened to avoid lost works, there's no easy way of doing it anyway. If the "right" way is to get the task switcher up every time you want to launch an app just to make sure older apps are not pushed off the list and to have a mental list of which apps would take how many slots, then I'd say MS chose the "wrong" way.
    There's not really a good way to know whether Internet Explorer starts a new instance or not, since it ALWAYS remembers your open tabs and sites, even through a power cycle of the phone.

    I'm not quite sure what you're talking about with Marketplace or Messaging ... they BOTH behave exactly the way I said that EVERY app behaves.

    Follow these steps:

    1) Open Marketplace
    2) Browse to apps
    3) Pick an app and view it's info page
    4) Hit Start
    5) Open marketplace from your app list or pinned tile (if you have one)

    Guess what? You're at the main Marketplace screen. It just started a new instance of Marketplace.

    Same thing with Messaging or any other app. If you're in the app and hit the Start key, then open the app again from the app list or a pinned tile, it starts a new instance. You don't even have to open another app. Every time you open the app from the app list or a pinned tile it opens a new instance of the app.

    Windows Phone wasn't designed to behave like a computer, allowing you to have an application window open indefinitely with unsaved data to come back to much later. Can a case be made that someone could lose a text message they were typing because they got distracted and opened a bunch of other apps? Absolutely. Unfortunately, you can't design a mobile OS for every scenario ... you have to hit the most frequently used scenarios. And MOST people will compose their text message and send it without going and opening any other apps ... or at least not more than 4 apps, causing their text message to be pushed out of the back stack.

    I understand that may not be acceptable to some people ... but that's the way it is.
    10-13-2011 10:59 PM
  25. sirtwist's Avatar
    Do tabs in the browser count as apps in the app switcher?
    Apparently, they do.
    10-13-2011 11:01 PM
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