Verizon lowers the boom (so to speak)

[1jaxstate1]

After looking deeper into Google wallet. Verizon seems to b blocking it due to wanting to use their own ewallet solution. That sucks big time.

The wallet info may be incorrect, so I've removed that reference, guess we'll see how that turns out.



As for being overhyped, is there anything you cant do now on your current 3G phone, assuming it has the requisite hardware, that an LTE phone will do? Tethering, video chat? Are your download speeds that slow? Remember these are all theoritical speeds that depend on many factors, and just saying a phone is 4G or LTE doesnt guarantee anything. This story is an example http://www.windowscentral.com/att-dialing-back-4g-speeds-windows-phones.



Yes, its faster but personally, just like you, its not a selling point because I dont feel I am currently hindered by the speeds I am getting now. Unless there is some new function that requires faster speeds I think its overhyped and just being used to sell new devices.

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[palandri]

I am sure there must be money to be made off it.

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[ericreinhardt]

I was wondering I was grandfathered into verizons unlimited plan. Does anyone know does this change if I upgrade to a 4g phone. Wondering if this is why Verizon is pushing ms for 4g phones.

 

[canesfan625]

I was wondering I was grandfathered into verizons unlimited plan. Does anyone know does this change if I upgrade to a 4g phone. Wondering if this is why Verizon is pushing ms for 4g phones.

You will have to ask Verizon. There is a greater than 0 chance that it will though and like AT&T I doubt being grandfathered in will last no matter how you slice it.

 

[jdd77]

The last Microsoft phones that Verizon carried were a huge failure so I think them even considering windows phone is a start.

 

[N8ter]

Honestly, if Verizon were being just and fair (which they will never be), they should give the same ultimatum to Apple with the iPhone.

This is typical Verizon arrogance, and a big part of the reason they didn't get the iPhone in the first place.

The iPhone has a ridiculous amount of mindshare and attracts millions of Customers. WP7 doesn't. You can't do the same for Apple. WP7 needs a silver bullet to compete with the iPhone. Having an LTE phone out RIGHT NOW could have been a very legit reason for someone to pick a WP7 device over an iPhone, but they don't have it.

Microsoft left it out for battery life reasons, however the devices with 3G still don't have better battery life than very high end HSPA+ devices with similar battery sizes. I think they just have too much on their hands right now and have to put some things on the backburner.

Some people may not be able to put it into perspective, but CDMA 3G speeds are very slow compared to GSM. While the average 3G GSM device comes with a 7.2/5.x Mbps Down/Up radio and can get 3-5mbps down easily in a good coverage area that isn't ridiculously congested, EvDO Rev. A radios are like 3.1 Mbps down max and the average speeds can be less than half of what an AT&T or T-Mobile 3G phone is getting 6 inches away.

Additionally, without LTE, Verizon cannot provide Simultaneous Voice and Data, which is a showstopper for many consumers and business users. They aren't pushing LTE hard just cause of the speeds (AT&T's LTE is rolling out and providing similar speeds, and past ~2.5 Mbps most consumers won't even notice the speed difference unless they're tethering or downloading very large files). A lot of things that keep their network competitive with GSM networks [assuming same device type] depend on the presence of an LTE radio in the device.

That's why AT&T kept almost all of their iPhone users even though it's on 3 carriers now, despite the FUD about bad customer satisfaction and sensationalizing network issues.

The iPhone is an exception, and the only reason why its data speeds suck so much on Sprint and Verizon is because their CDMA technology is inferior to HSPA+ for data speeds. It has a 14.4 HSPA+ GSM radio, just like the newer Mango phones.

So, while I won't fault Microsoft completely... Microsoft or its users shouldn't be suprised that they do not get the same treatment as Apple. WP7 needs to win customers on Verizon. Apple brings customers to Verizon. The situations are completely different.

 

[N8ter]

The wallet info may be incorrect, so I've removed that reference, guess we'll see how that turns out.

As for being overhyped, is there anything you cant do now on your current 3G phone, assuming it has the requisite hardware, that an LTE phone will do? Tethering, video chat? Are your download speeds that slow? Remember these are all theoritical speeds that depend on many factors, and just saying a phone is 4G or LTE doesnt guarantee anything. This story is an example http://www.windowscentral.com/att-dialing-back-4g-speeds-windows-phones.

Yes, its faster but personally, just like you, its not a selling point because I dont feel I am currently hindered by the speeds I am getting now. Unless there is some new function that requires faster speeds I think its overhyped and just being used to sell new devices.

If you ever compared a 3G CDMA phone to a 3G GSM Phone (can compare my Vibrant to a Verizon iPhone 4S) you'd know that without LTE WP7 simply will not be able to compete with the iPhone on an iPhone carrier, and Android will destroy it by introducing a new shiny phone every other week. All things being equal, the iPhone will win by default on the virtue of Apple's ecosystem and hardware/internals. The reason why Android competes well is because they play the numbers game with consumers : bigger is better/faster. Yes, that attracts people.

Microsoft has the ecosystem thing down, but it's still not on Apple's level. On the flip side, they cannot compete well with android because people view the devices as being last gen. LTE is next gen, and LTE support would literally force MIcrosoft to upgrade the hardware (SoC) in Verizon WP7 devices because the Cell Radio is in the SoC. The SoCs they currently use do not support LTE. THey would require an upgrade to one of the Dual Core SoCs in use (or a custom Single Core SoC just for them?)

In the HSPA+ market I lived in my Vibrant could get almost 4 Mbps down and almost 3 Mbps Up. That's higher than the max theoretical speed of a CDMA 3G radio, and we all know cell phones almost never approach the max theoretical speed unless you're the only person with a cell phone in a ~6 mile radius of the tower.

A max 3.1 Mbps download speed is 388 KB/sec on CDMA. Most Verizon users get typically 1.5-2 Mbps max CDMA download speeds, or thereabouts... 2Mbps down is 250 KB/sec.

In short, a GSM or LTE phone can double to quintuple the download speed of a 3G CDMA device instantly, while offering SV&D and other goodies.

If you're on Sprint, the speed is even more dramatic since their average 3G speeds are something more like 768 kbps...

HSPA+ was advantageous for GSM carriers because it allowed them to offer speeds comparable to "1st gen 4G networks" with very little investment. That is why AT&T and T-Mobile were still able to remain decently strong (subjective on T-Mobile's part) despite not having LTE rolled out. Once you put the LTE devices on a network in use, the download speeds aren't too much better than a 21mbps HSPA device, or even a 14.4 in many areas.

 

[naplesbill]

Those are actually very good points N8ter. All the more reason why Verizon needs LTE where GSM carriers really don't yet.

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[Joelist]

I was wondering I was grandfathered into verizons unlimited plan. Does anyone know does this change if I upgrade to a 4g phone. Wondering if this is why Verizon is pushing ms for 4g phones.

If you already have an unlimited plan a device change does not affect it. The only way you can lose it is to leave Verizon or change your base plan. So if you had unlimited you can go LTE and keep unlimited.

 

[Joelist]

As to simultaneous voice and data, I get that right now on my HTC Thunderbolt even when on 3G (if not in an LTE area). That phone is unique however in that it achieves this by having SVDO in addition to voice and LTE - so it has a different technology package.

I can also note that dual core is not required for LTE, indeed the Thunderbolt as well as others are single core (Samsung Fascinate and LG's LTE phone at least).

Also, my brother has the iPhone on AT&T so I was indeed able to directly compare it with my old (pre-LTE) phones before. The only one that did not smoke the iPhone was the BB Storm 2. My Win Mobile phones (I typically used Opera Mobile on them) smoked the iPhone and my HTC Incredible did also.

I would have to attribute it in part to HTC bringing over their experience in Windows Mobile to Android (HTC Androids are extensively modded - Sense is more than a skin). They rewrote some of the graphics drivers, baked in ActiveSync and also reworked the Android Browser. So if you have to go Android I recommend HTC as it is by far the smoothest and most polished.

That said, I do agree with VZW here. What they did was not super belligerent just straightforward. They said in a forthright manner what they needed from Microsoft. And as HTC, Motorola, and LG all have already deployed extremely successful LTE hardware the ball is in Microsoft's court to get the proper support into the OS.

 

[kg4icg]

Now here is something funny to think about. VZW laying out there ultimatum to Microsoft and celebrating and bragging about there LTE network. Everytime VZW Braggs about said LTE network, it goes down. Case in point today for example.

 

[Reflexx]

Now here is something funny to think about. VZW laying out there ultimatum to Microsoft and celebrating and bragging about there LTE network. Everytime VZW Braggs about said LTE network, it goes down. Case in point today for example.

Haha. I noticed that. Twitter feed was blowing up!

 

[Joelist]

Except that there have not been that many outages. They have every right to be proud of their LTE network - it performs at a very high level and they have a much more extensive rollout than anyone expected. This is only the second outage - they had one in April and now today.

If you really want to talk outages try being on BlackBerry - they had constant BIS outages that were much more damaging than this LTE issue because all of the network communications were routed through BIS.

 

[N8ter]

As to simultaneous voice and data, I get that right now on my HTC Thunderbolt even when on 3G (if not in an LTE area). That phone is unique however in that it achieves this by having SVDO in addition to voice and LTE - so it has a different technology package.

I can also note that dual core is not required for LTE, indeed the Thunderbolt as well as others are single core (Samsung Fascinate and LG's LTE phone at least).

Also, my brother has the iPhone on AT&T so I was indeed able to directly compare it with my old (pre-LTE) phones before. The only one that did not smoke the iPhone was the BB Storm 2. My Win Mobile phones (I typically used Opera Mobile on them) smoked the iPhone and my HTC Incredible did also.

I would have to attribute it in part to HTC bringing over their experience in Windows Mobile to Android (HTC Androids are extensively modded - Sense is more than a skin). They rewrote some of the graphics drivers, baked in ActiveSync and also reworked the Android Browser. So if you have to go Android I recommend HTC as it is by far the smoothest and most polished.

That said, I do agree with VZW here. What they did was not super belligerent just straightforward. They said in a forthright manner what they needed from Microsoft. And as HTC, Motorola, and LG all have already deployed extremely successful LTE hardware the ball is in Microsoft's court to get the proper support into the OS.

The Thunderbolt we talked about on XDA has an MDM8655 Single Core in it, yes. However, I don't think it would look good to move into LTE using more old hardware. It will just stink to consumers. They already get enough flack for the hardware they're using in current phones...

The Fascinate has a Hummingbird SoC and it is not an LTE device. It's a 1st Gen Galaxy S variant comparable to the Captivate/Vibrant/Epic 4G. All of those are HSPA/EvDo devices with no HSPA+ or LTE in them. The Epic 4G does have a WiMax radio in it, however.

A CDMA phone will never smoke a GSM device in data download/upload speeds where that GSM device gets decent coverage. Coverage varies from area to area. You use the carrier that gives you the best experience based on where you live and where you travel.

In Lafayette, La T-Mobile has HSPA+ and my Vibrant got almost 4Mbps down. At the Verizon store (Lafayette is not necessarily a small and certainly not an ignorable market) their phones were struggling to keep 3 bars of 3G. The speeds weren't even comparable. AT&T devices were getting 2.5-3 Mbps down, and Sprint phones were dog slow. CDMA is slow. Always has been. The beauty of Verizon's CDMA network was never their data speeds. It was the coverage and reliability of the signal, as well as CDMA's better penetration into buildings compared to GSM in many cases.

Now that the smartphone market is growing at an amazing rate and people are doing a lot more and a lot more varied content consumption on those devices, the need for speed is as high as ever. EvDo just doesn't cut it. iPhone users on Verizon are there cause the network is reliable, and those on Sprint almost unanimously love the lower prices (T-Mobile does not have an iPhone).

CDMA phones for some manufacturers, like RIM, were also favorably spec'd compared to their GSM twins. Blackberries for Sprint and Verizon, especially Curve Models, routinely shipped with twice the storage and RAM of the GSM variants.

 

[Joelist]

Hi N8ter!

I mistyped earlier, it is the Charge not the Fascinate. Anyway the point was the dual core is not required for LTE.

And yes I smoked his iPhone constantly with my EVDO Verizon phones (except as I said the Storm 2). I would have pages up and navigating while he was still waiting for them to fully render. And yes the Verizon reliability is way superior to AT&T - the running joke for years was that the biggest problem with the iPhone was the little "AT&T" in the upper left hand corner. And this happened with the iPhone 3G. 3GS and 4.

Remember I am a WP fan here. To me it should not be necessary for an OEM to perform major surgery on the OS to get it to perform well on the phone (like HTC had to do). Their Sense surgery on Android is far more extensive than Sense was on Win Mobile where it was more of a UI replacement (and a very good UI replacement).

The thing is, Motorola, HTC and Samsung all have LTE chipsets and hardware ready to go right now - they're selling them hand over fist. Granted Motorola is owned by Google so we won't see anything out of them but Android, but HTC and Samsung are both there.

MS needs to get their roadmap moving and accelerate it if need be to deliver LTE, Dual Core and higher resolution support to the OEMs sooner rather than later. Once that is done getting current generation tech Windows Phones to market is not that hard as the OEMs already have hardware sets they can use.

 

[scottcraft]

N8ter I agree that the attraction of cdma is network reliability and building penetration. I live around Lake Charles, LA and I have few issues with dropped calls compared to friends on AT&T. I've never compared data speeds, but I have no trouble streaming YouTube and music here and Lafayette. I am looking forward to 4G though. The Verizon store here has told me sometime this summer it will be here. In the meantime they are selling 4G androids like hotcakes.

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[KingCrimson]

So far no one is describing a scenario of how Windows Phone can get significant market share. It seems DOA.

 

[Joelist]

Actually they are.

Step One: Get the drivers for LTE, dual core and more advanced displays incorporated into the OS.

Step Two: OEMs can now deploy WP7 LTE phones to Verizon which for WP7 is pretty much uncovered ground.

Step Three: If (and here the big IF) the phones are good phones and if their rollout is promoted well then they will sell well.

Result, increased market share.

 

[Reflexx]

So far no one is describing a scenario of how Windows Phone can get significant market share. It seems DOA.

The thread isn't titled, " Describe a scenario where Windiws Phine could get significant market share." So the conclusion you're coming to based on what's in this thread is perplexing.

 

[strictlystyles]

Um has anybody including Verizon realized that the OS just cant handle LTE at this time? Forcing LTE on the OS at this time will just make bad phones with terrible customer satisfaction, and will forever place "sucks" in the minds of Verizon WP7 phone owners, so it doesn't make any sense to push something that wont work at this time.

Plus they have said before that this was on their roadmap, so cant Verizon just be a bit more positive about the OS, being the HUGE corporation Microsoft is? Especially since full LTE adoption is at least 4-5 years away.

Verizon will be kicking themselves in the *** yet AGAIN if Microsoft comes out on top in the next few years.