12-10-2011 08:01 AM
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  1. threed61's Avatar
    Just to be clear, Verizon became larger than AT&T by buying Alltel. They did not do it by adding customers one at a time. Their network is not perfect and really sucks in many parts of Florida. Having used both, side by side for almost 2 years, I can say without a doubt that AT&T UMTS/HSDPA kill Verizons CDMA. Verizon NEEDS LTE for this reason.

    Sent from my PI39100 using Board Express
    AT&T is a composite of Southwest Bell and at least a dozen companies which they acquired, including AT&T, from which they got the name. They also added 1.5 million customers from the Alltel merger due to antitrust issues. Since that merger closed 3 years ago, Verizon has continued to grow, just like SBC/AT&T, mostly at the expense of smaller companies.
    You mentioned your distrust of the Consumer Reports survey that had Verizon at the top in consumer satisfaction and AT&T at the bottom among nationwide carriers, well try the even larger JD Power survey, same result. Try almost any consumer survey not paid for by AT&T, same result. They blow Verizon away in data speed, but still have a ways to go to catch up in reliability of network.
    You compared Verizon to Apple, and thats quite accurate. They have a 'do it our way or go away' attitude, and charge higher prices for less choice and more bloatware.
    However, for consumers outside of Texas, when you need a call or an internet connection to go through, VZW is usually the more reliable choice.
    I'm still planning to switch from VZW to AT&T to get a better smartphone and speeds, but I may keep a VZW dumbphone line to make sure I can get calls when I really need them.
    12-09-2011 02:24 PM
  2. naplesbill's Avatar
    AT&T is a composite of Southwest Bell and at least a dozen companies which they acquired, including AT&T, from which they got the name. They also added 1.5 million customers from the Alltel merger due to antitrust issues. Since that merger closed 3 years ago, Verizon has continued to grow, just like SBC/AT&T, mostly at the expense of smaller companies.
    You mentioned your distrust of the Consumer Reports survey that had Verizon at the top in consumer satisfaction and AT&T at the bottom among nationwide carriers, well try the even larger JD Power survey, same result. Try almost any consumer survey not paid for by AT&T, same result. They blow Verizon away in data speed, but still have a ways to go to catch up in reliability of network.
    You compared Verizon to Apple, and thats quite accurate. They have a 'do it our way or go away' attitude, and charge higher prices for less choice and more bloatware.
    However, for consumers outside of Texas, when you need a call or an internet connection to go through, VZW is usually the more reliable choice.
    I'm still planning to switch from VZW to AT&T to get a better smartphone and speeds, but I may keep a VZW dumbphone line to make sure I can get calls when I really need them.
    All those reliability surveys are based on a sampling. I would have to guess that where I live would not be included in that sampling and that most of FL is probably in the same boat. It seems that the East and West coast cities are the bigger barometers for these types of surveys.

    When it comes to where I live and work in FL, AT&T is far more reliable and faster. I cannot either make or maintain calls in half the places I tend to go with Verizon. So the bottom line on this issue is to figure out who is best where you spend most of your time.

    AT&T was bigger than Verizon up until Verizon bought Alltel. This is the truth. Verizon and AT&T have both gobbled up other providers over the years. Trying to say that Verizon is better because they bought more subscribers is not a good argument and was my only point in that regard.
    12-09-2011 02:33 PM
  3. threed61's Avatar
    All those reliability surveys are based on a sampling. I would have to guess that where I live would not be included in that sampling and that most of FL is probably in the same boat. It seems that the East and West coast cities are the bigger barometers for these types of surveys.

    When it comes to where I live and work in FL, AT&T is far more reliable and faster. I cannot either make or maintain calls in half the places I tend to go with Verizon. So the bottom line on this issue is to figure out who is best where you spend most of your time.

    AT&T was bigger than Verizon up until Verizon bought Alltel. This is the truth. Verizon and AT&T have both gobbled up other providers over the years. Trying to say that Verizon is better because they bought more subscribers is not a good argument and was my only point in that regard.
    Even though they have a rather negative reputation with consumers, the vast majority of AT&T customers are satisfied. Since they generally get their lowest marks for customer service, I'm surprised they haven't worked harder to clean that up. Prior to 2009, Sprint was in a similar situation and has made great strides in consumer surveys.
    Getting back to the story that inspired the thread, I think VZW is right, MS needs to speed up its timeline, and find a way to introduce 1 or 2 'standout' devices. The one's we've seen so far just blend into Android landscape. Getting the media to talk about a must-have phone does more than any paid advertising.
    12-09-2011 03:18 PM
  4. timberwolf211's Avatar
    I too agree with Verizon. Its not a bad thing for us a consumer. The only thing that is frustrating is waiting for a LTE Windows phone. I was a android user and was ready to move to another android device. But then I started reading about the windows phone and became hooked. I was really hoping a big windows screen phone with LTE was going to come out. But then my current android died. And I got a **** of a deal on the Trophy. Could not be more happy or excited. I have had this phone for 4 days and I am more impressed than I could have imagined. I think MS needs to encourage more manufactures other than Nokia to make phones with the OS on it. But I really believe that next year will be a blow out year for the Windows Phone. I also think that Blackberry is on the way out and MS will take that spot and start moving into Ios and Android territory.
    But when I went to get my Trophy the guy at the Verizon store was like you want what? But then the store could not match the deal I could get online so I just ordered it. :)
    12-09-2011 03:45 PM
  5. threed61's Avatar
    I too agree with Verizon. Its not a bad thing for us a consumer. The only thing that is frustrating is waiting for a LTE Windows phone. I was a android user and was ready to move to another android device. But then I started reading about the windows phone and became hooked. I was really hoping a big windows screen phone with LTE was going to come out. But then my current android died. And I got a **** of a deal on the Trophy. Could not be more happy or excited. I have had this phone for 4 days and I am more impressed than I could have imagined. I think MS needs to encourage more manufactures other than Nokia to make phones with the OS on it. But I really believe that next year will be a blow out year for the Windows Phone. I also think that Blackberry is on the way out and MS will take that spot and start moving into Ios and Android territory.
    But when I went to get my Trophy the guy at the Verizon store was like you want what? But then the store could not match the deal I could get online so I just ordered it. :)
    Welcome to the forum!
    12-09-2011 03:55 PM
  6. starblade876's Avatar
    Call me skeptical, but I have doubts that, even if MS provides a timeline and even if OEMs come out with great, beautiful LTE devices, sales reps will stop unabashedly steering customers to Android and that Verizon will do anything to remedy that.

    What it sounds like to me is that Verizon is putting in place a facade to make it look like they were instrumental in Windows Phone success, not unlike me telling the Earth that it should continue to rotate in order for me to continue to support it.

    Just sayin'
    12-09-2011 04:31 PM
  7. N8ter's Avatar
    Call me skeptical, but I have doubts that, even if MS provides a timeline and even if OEMs come out with great, beautiful LTE devices, sales reps will stop unabashedly steering customers to Android and that Verizon will do anything to remedy that.

    What it sounds like to me is that Verizon is putting in place a facade to make it look like they were instrumental in Windows Phone success, not unlike me telling the Earth that it should continue to rotate in order for me to continue to support it.

    Just sayin'
    What the reps do have absolutely nothing to do with the Corporate Heads at Verizon's decisions to forgo carrying non-LTE Windows Phones.

    People say the reps do that at literally all the carriers, so it's not even a factor.
    12-09-2011 04:49 PM
  8. Reflexx's Avatar
    LTE devices are coming. If Verizon doesn't want to give more Windows Phone options to their customers until that point, that's up to them.

    MS has an Apple-like philosophy with LTE. They want to do it right, with decent battery life. I can't fault them for that.
    12-09-2011 05:19 PM
  9. threed61's Avatar
    When you're the number 6 OS, you might consider doing it right a bit faster, and with better hardware.
    12-09-2011 05:42 PM
  10. jfa1's Avatar
    well apparently the Nokia 900 Ace is confirmed for ATT and is likely bound for simultaneous release on VZN with LTE 4.3 in screen 8MP camera 16GB storage in Q1 2012 maybe late January maybe March 2012.
    12-09-2011 08:35 PM
  11. timberwolf211's Avatar
    Lets hope that its a reality and Big Red gets a big dose of WP phones.
    12-09-2011 09:14 PM
  12. starblade876's Avatar
    What the reps do have absolutely nothing to do with the Corporate Heads at Verizon's decisions to forgo carrying non-LTE Windows Phones.

    People say the reps do that at literally all the carriers, so it's not even a factor.
    True or false: if a phone isn't selling, Verizon will EOL the device more sooner than later. True or false: a large number of consumers are swayed by sales representatives due to the fact that they are not well versed in electronics. While the influence sales reps have on corporates might be indirect, acting like they have absolutely no influence is fallacy.
    12-09-2011 09:20 PM
  13. Joelist's Avatar
    Big Red, microsoft and the OEMs all have the ability to get sales reps to start recommending WP7 devices. It takes two things:

    1) Higher end phones they can suggest with a straight face. If the rumor about the Nokia Ace is true that would give them a phone that is at least credible (best of breed camera, Nokia build quality and LTE).

    2) Incentives. This is HUGE. Sales Reps like incentives as much as anyone and will naturally tend towards phones where they see a little more cash in their pockets or free products for their efforts. MS and/or Nokia can help this by including as part of a US rollout some cash prizes and/or per sold phone payoffs. Obviously they cannot do that forever but for say the first 60 to 90 days it would start steering the reps to Windows Phone.
    12-10-2011 01:40 AM
  14. N8ter's Avatar
    True or false: if a phone isn't selling, Verizon will EOL the device more sooner than later. True or false: a large number of consumers are swayed by sales representatives due to the fact that they are not well versed in electronics. While the influence sales reps have on corporates might be indirect, acting like they have absolutely no influence is fallacy.
    It's hard to push a platform when it lacks basic functionality for a year and the devices are so disappointing compared to competing options.

    No Sales rep wants people to return phones. They push what they feel most people are more likely to be happy with. They have a good idea of what that is, cause they sell tons of phones for a living.

    It's not fallacy. It's not Verizon's fault Microsoft set the bar so low for OEMs. That's Microsoft's fault.

    Additionally, I said it's not a factor because that happens on ALL carriers. WP7 is not outselling or even approaching the sales of top Android handsets or the iPhone on any of the major carriers here - period, so Verizon cannot be singled out as if their Reps have some magical powers to induce bottom tier device sales. The platform simply hasn't done nearly as well as many people were hoping. Fact?
    12-10-2011 02:13 AM
  15. scottd34's Avatar
    Everyone is forgetting one major point for LTE. VZW has said they want to start going with voice over LTE and the only way to do that is to get LTE phones in peoples hands now.

    This is not a short term game when long term contracts are around. You need to get the people with lte phones now that will help influence the less technical family members /friends to also go lte so when the VoLTE capabilities are live there is already a solid user base using LTE and manufacturers arent scrambling to get their LTE phones made.

    The turnaround from concept to sales can be as much as 18months - 2 years for a phone so they need to get the kinks worked out of lte phones now.
    12-10-2011 05:28 AM
  16. scottd34's Avatar
    No Sales rep wants people to return phones. They push what they feel most people are more likely to be happy with. They have a good idea of what that is, cause they sell tons of phones for a living.
    Having worked tech support for a cell carrier, I can assure you there are a lot of people very upset with android's instability, battery life and other issues.

    I am sure once MS starts getting windows phone out there and people start seeing how fluid and stable it is, then things will pick up. They just need to suck it up and give in to carriers to start getting mindshare.
    12-10-2011 05:30 AM
  17. starblade876's Avatar
    It's hard to push a platform when it lacks basic functionality for a year and the devices are so disappointing compared to competing options.

    No Sales rep wants people to return phones. They push what they feel most people are more likely to be happy with. They have a good idea of what that is, cause they sell tons of phones for a living.

    It's not fallacy. It's not Verizon's fault Microsoft set the bar so low for OEMs. That's Microsoft's fault.

    Additionally, I said it's not a factor because that happens on ALL carriers. WP7 is not outselling or even approaching the sales of top Android handsets or the iPhone on any of the major carriers here - period, so Verizon cannot be singled out as if their Reps have some magical powers to induce bottom tier device sales. The platform simply hasn't done nearly as well as many people were hoping. Fact?
    What basic fuctionality was lacking for a year? Your disappointment is subjective. I would still prefer the "disappointing" Windows Phone devices over any of the Android devices that're out right now because WP performs better for my everyday.

    Many sales reps seem to have little to no idea about WP as most if not all of the anecdotes I've read have indicated. I very much believe that many people who are pushed Android phones would more than likely be much happier with WP (i.e., less returns). I know my partner for one would have been much better off with WP than the low-end Android device that was pushed to him. You want a lack of basic functionality? His phone often apparently has trouble making and receiving calls in places where mine is fine, it lags more than the lower spec'd TP2 I had, and it hasn't ever been able to connect to a PC.

    Also, yes, Android favoritism happens on other carriers, but Verizon is being singled out in this thread because a Verizon representative spoke up for whatever reason and implied that LTE support will make that much of a difference.
    12-10-2011 06:46 AM
  18. CHIP72's Avatar
    Incentives. This is HUGE. Sales Reps like incentives as much as anyone and will naturally tend towards phones where they see a little more cash in their pockets or free products for their efforts. MS and/or Nokia can help this by including as part of a US rollout some cash prizes and/or per sold phone payoffs. Obviously they cannot do that forever but for say the first 60 to 90 days it would start steering the reps to Windows Phone.
    This is an important point. I found out about a week ago that at least at Verizon, the brick and mortar stores actually compete to some degree with the carrier's own on-line website, and that sales reps receive commissions for selling devices. If a device is priced higher (i.e. is a higher-end device), that probably means more money in pocket for sales reps. In addition, with the HTC Trophy I just bought earlier this week, there was a $120 on-line discount for the device ($30 on 2 year contract) relative to the price at Verizon stores ($150 on a 2 year contract). If the on-line prices for various devices undercut the prices that are available in the store, that's a disincentive for sales reps to push that device in the store.

    One other, related story - just last night I went to one of the local Verizon-owned stores to try to buy screen protectors for my new Trophy (which I received on Thursday, a day earlier than I expected). When I asked the rep at the store if they had any, he said the Trophy (the smartphone, not the screen protectors) wasn't in stock anymore, despite the fact it was still on display no more than 15 feet away. I pointed out the Trophy was still on display, and they checked to see if they had screen protectors in stock (which unfortunately they did not).

    I'll note that in my experience having gone to probably at least 10 different Verizon-owned stores and having talked with sales reps directly or indirectly to sales reps at most of those stores (by indirectly I mean listening to what reps are telling or not telling other people), I'd say most Verizon store reps have played down the HTC Trophy. However, the reps who did not play down the Trophy (I know I've met at least 2 such reps) really spoke positively about WP and the Trophy.
    12-10-2011 07:43 AM
  19. palandri's Avatar
    This is an important point. I found out about a week ago that at least at Verizon, the brick and mortar stores actually compete to some degree with the carrier's own on-line website, and that sales reps receive commissions for selling devices. If a device is priced higher (i.e. is a higher-end device), that probably means more money in pocket for sales reps. In addition, with the HTC Trophy I just bought earlier this week, there was a $120 on-line discount for the device ($30 on 2 year contract) relative to the price at Verizon stores ($150 on a 2 year contract). If the on-line prices for various devices undercut the prices that are available in the store, that's a disincentive for sales reps to push that device in the store.

    One other, related story - just last night I went to one of the local Verizon-owned stores to try to buy screen protectors for my new Trophy (which I received on Thursday, a day earlier than I expected). When I asked the rep at the store if they had any, he said the Trophy (the smartphone, not the screen protectors) wasn't in stock anymore, despite the fact it was still on display no more than 15 feet away. I pointed out the Trophy was still on display, and they checked to see if they had screen protectors in stock (which unfortunately they did not).

    I'll note that in my experience having gone to probably at least 10 different Verizon-owned stores and having talked with sales reps directly or indirectly to sales reps at most of those stores (by indirectly I mean listening to what reps are telling or not telling other people), I'd say most Verizon store reps have played down the HTC Trophy. However, the reps who did not play down the Trophy (I know I've met at least 2 such reps) really spoke positively about WP and the Trophy.
    Plus various vendors will setup incentive programs. My wife works retail and vendors setup a variety of selling incentives.
    12-10-2011 08:01 AM
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