01-03-2012 11:09 AM
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  1. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    This is going to be my little mini-blog, so enjoy. :)

    So I've been saying this for about half a year now, but every time I bring it up, it seems to get swept under the rug. Although there have been a lot of developments about this issue in the past few months, I still believe this to be true. In the foreseeable future, I don't see Windows Phone taking off in the United States. However, I believe it is going to gain massive attraction in other parts of the world.

    Why don't I think it is going to take off in the United States? Mainly, the carriers. Sure, AT&T has been doing a good job in having some variety, but we all know even they could be doing better. Aside from the usual carrier bias complaint, the most alarming fact is that carriers in the U.S. are so much more powerful than in every other country in the world. Not only do they like to have carrier-exclusivity (no sharing of phones), but the largest carrier in the country is Verizon--a CDMA carrier pushing LTE (things that are extremely rare in the rest of the world). This brings me to the OEMs.

    Thank goodness we have Nokia on our side. Honestly, if it weren't for Nokia, I would have already lost all hope for another Windows Phone device on Verizon (and maybe Sprint, although I'm still hopeful for that LG phone). For other OEMs, it wouldn't make sense to make more than one or two Windows Phone devices, since they aren't selling well right now. Nokia, however, needs to strike every vein it can in order to stay afloat. Why would Samsung make an equivalent to the Flash and the S for other carriers? T-Mob doesn't have enough people and Verizon and Sprint are both CDMA. (I'm honestly guessing that AT&T turned down the HTC Radar because of the Flash and therefore HTC took it to TMob.) Nokia, though, isn't going to be in this position, though. They need brand recognition. Everyone that I've mentioned the new Nokia phones to here in the States say that they didn't even know Nokia still existed (also something the U.S. carriers are responsible for ;) ). In order for Nokia to make a presence in the States, they'll need to make a big deal of themselves. I can't wait to see what they're going to do, as right now, they are my only hope (insert Princess Leia/R2D2 picture here).

    Why do I think Windows Phone is going to take off in the rest of the world? There are a few reasons. Besides the fact that the operating system is just flat out amazing, perhaps the biggest reason is the availability of different price points. WP7 as an OS is very versatile. It is really light, so it can run on cheap devices, but it also looks really great on high end devices. Throw in the upcoming Tango update, which will aim for more markets and price points, as well as Nokia and Microsoft already claiming that they want to push down prices of Windows Phones to new lows for smartphones (note: this doesn't make much of a difference in the US, due to carrier subsidies--another reason I think American carriers are making it harder for WP), and you've got everything covered from emerging markets to major countries covered.

    This is what I've been thinking for a while now and it feels so good to finally let it out. :P What do you think of the matter? Do you think this entire post is moot now that Nokia is in the game? Or do you think we just need more time? Let me know. :)

    PS: Thanks for reading!
    palandri and threed61 like this.
    12-26-2011 10:47 PM
  2. palandri's Avatar
    I think Nokia will bring WP a big chunk of the marketplace.

    I also think that Microsoft is a financial giant that could grab as much of the marketplace as they want.
    Judge_Daniel and Justin.TV312 like this.
    12-26-2011 11:04 PM
  3. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    Very good points.

    I think Nokia will bring WP a big chunk of the marketplace.
    I don't think we'll see a huge difference from Nokia in the US initially unless they have a huge blitzing campaign akin to the Droid campaign back before Android was popular. The strength of the name brand just isn't there anymore.

    I also think that Microsoft is a financial giant that could grab as much of the marketplace as they want.
    This is something that actually worries me. Is there a reason MS isn't going all-in with Windows Phone? Is WP8 not going to be compatible with WP7 devices? Are they not wanting to focus on the US right now (which, again, is supported by Tango--an entire update aimed at emerging markets). Maybe I'm just overly cautious. :P
    12-26-2011 11:23 PM
  4. jleebiker's Avatar
    This is going to be my little mini-blog, so enjoy. :)

    So I've been saying this for about half a year now, but every time I bring it up, it seems to get swept under the rug. Although there have been a lot of developments about this issue in the past few months, I still believe this to be true. In the foreseeable future, I don't see Windows Phone taking off in the United States. However, I believe it is going to gain massive attraction in other parts of the world.

    Why don't I think it is going to take off in the United States? Mainly, the carriers. Sure, AT&T has been doing a good job in having some variety, but we all know even they could be doing better. Aside from the usual carrier bias complaint, the most alarming fact is that carriers in the U.S. are so much more powerful than in every other country in the world. Not only do they like to have carrier-exclusivity (no sharing of phones), but the largest carrier in the country is Verizon--a CDMA carrier pushing LTE (things that are extremely rare in the rest of the world). This brings me to the OEMs.

    Thank goodness we have Nokia on our side. Honestly, if it weren't for Nokia, I would have already lost all hope for another Windows Phone device on Verizon (and maybe Sprint, although I'm still hopeful for that LG phone). For other OEMs, it wouldn't make sense to make more than one or two Windows Phone devices, since they aren't selling well right now. Nokia, however, needs to strike every vein it can in order to stay afloat. Why would Samsung make an equivalent to the Flash and the S for other carriers? T-Mob doesn't have enough people and Verizon and Sprint are both CDMA. (I'm honestly guessing that AT&T turned down the HTC Radar because of the Flash and therefore HTC took it to TMob.) Nokia, though, isn't going to be in this position, though. They need brand recognition. Everyone that I've mentioned the new Nokia phones to here in the States say that they didn't even know Nokia still existed (also something the U.S. carriers are responsible for ;) ). In order for Nokia to make a presence in the States, they'll need to make a big deal of themselves. I can't wait to see what they're going to do, as right now, they are my only hope (insert Princess Leia/R2D2 picture here).

    Why do I think Windows Phone is going to take off in the rest of the world? There are a few reasons. Besides the fact that the operating system is just flat out amazing, perhaps the biggest reason is the availability of different price points. WP7 as an OS is very versatile. It is really light, so it can run on cheap devices, but it also looks really great on high end devices. Throw in the upcoming Tango update, which will aim for more markets and price points, as well as Nokia and Microsoft already claiming that they want to push down prices of Windows Phones to new lows for smartphones (note: this doesn't make much of a difference in the US, due to carrier subsidies--another reason I think American carriers are making it harder for WP), and you've got everything covered from emerging markets to major countries covered.

    This is what I've been thinking for a while now and it feels so good to finally let it out. :P What do you think of the matter? Do you think this entire post is moot now that Nokia is in the game? Or do you think we just need more time? Let me know. :)

    PS: Thanks for reading!
    I think WP isn't going to do as well as we hope not for the reasons you listed, but because for the most part, the American Public are sheep. They don't want to think about what device and OS makes the best fit for them. They aren't going to look at it and compare and try it out and give it a chance. For the most part, they want the decision made FOR them and the reality of the numbers and market share point to Droid and iOS.
    Those of us who visit these forums KNOW what is the better OS. We're not the ones that need to be sold on it. WE need to preach the message to others; our friends and families that are looking for advice. We also need public and visible champions for WP. Sure there have been articles from some high profile people about how they are switching to WP, but that's not the same say as seeing someone like Tiger Woods or Beyonce using it. (Blackberry used to have a forum for posting pics of celebrities using Blackberries)

    Droid is on a roll right now. Whether it is stable or performs well is irrelevant. What matters is their marketing people are going gangbusters feeding the drones that are the American consumers exactly what they want to see. That by picking a Droid, they can't be wrong. I mean for Christ's Sake! Even the Muppets are on Google+ !!! Does WP have something like that? No.... WP needs some champions and needs it NOW.

    MS needs to start doing some HEAVY marketing and PR efforts showing people that a WP is a sound, viable, riskless decision. I hate to say it, but they need to pull out ads showing how a WP can do everything that Droids and iOS devices can do, but in a simpler, more streamlined way. I hate these types of ads as they are coming from a point of weakness (which is the case here) and you don't really want to do that.

    Oh well, that's just my rambling thoughts. Anyone else?
    Judge_Daniel and threed61 like this.
    12-26-2011 11:23 PM
  5. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    I think WP isn't going to do as well as we hope not for the reasons you listed, but because for the most part, the American Public are sheep. They don't want to think about what device and OS makes the best fit for them. They aren't going to look at it and compare and try it out and give it a chance. For the most part, they want the decision made FOR them and the reality of the numbers and market share point to Droid and iOS.
    Those of us who visit these forums KNOW what is the better OS. We're not the ones that need to be sold on it. WE need to preach the message to others; our friends and families that are looking for advice. We also need public and visible champions for WP. Sure there have been articles from some high profile people about how they are switching to WP, but that's not the same say as seeing someone like Tiger Woods or Beyonce using it. (Blackberry used to have a forum for posting pics of celebrities using Blackberries)

    Droid is on a roll right now. Whether it is stable or performs well is irrelevant. What matters is their marketing people are going gangbusters feeding the drones that are the American consumers exactly what they want to see. That by picking a Droid, they can't be wrong. I mean for Christ's Sake! Even the Muppets are on Google+ !!! Does WP have something like that? No.... WP needs some champions and needs it NOW.

    MS needs to start doing some HEAVY marketing and PR efforts showing people that a WP is a sound, viable, riskless decision. I hate to say it, but they need to pull out ads showing how a WP can do everything that Droids and iOS devices can do, but in a simpler, more streamlined way. I hate these types of ads as they are coming from a point of weakness (which is the case here) and you don't really want to do that.

    Oh well, that's just my rambling thoughts. Anyone else?
    I agree about the American public. Some common feedback I hear when I show off a Windows Phone pertains to if others have it and why isn't it more popular. Pretty much your usual smartphone ad populum. ;)

    I wonder if Microsoft is having the same problem that I am--"When do I want to commit to a new Windows Phone?!" Of course we all said that Mango would bring about the mass blitzes, but now we can only look toward Apollo.
    12-26-2011 11:32 PM
  6. threed61's Avatar
    If the rest of the world are such brilliant consumers, why were they buying Symbian crap for so long?
    Samsung and HTC sell lots of CDMA phones, perhaps MS should try offering VZW and Sprint what they want so as to reach their 150 million users.
    Being a financial giant doesn't mean consumers will buy your product. You need to give them something better than the competition, or cheaper.
    Windows Phone offers middle of the road hardware for prices similar to better specced android and IOS phones.
    foosball likes this.
    12-26-2011 11:46 PM
  7. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    If the rest of the world are such brilliant consumers, why were they buying Symbian crap for so long?
    Samsung and HTC sell lots of CDMA phones, perhaps MS should try offering VZW and Sprint what they want so as to reach their 150 million users.
    Being a financial giant doesn't mean consumers will buy your product. You need to give them something better than the competition, or cheaper.
    Windows Phone offers middle of the road hardware for prices similar to better specced android and IOS phones.
    I think that Microsoft has been addressing this lately. I think maybe they planned that they could produce lesser spec'ed products (and therefore slightly cheaper) that had the same user experience (eg: fluidity). However, that isn't how Americans have been trained to see. Thanks to big Apple reveals and Androids poor performance, Americans are always looking for the next big upgrade--not a downgrade.
    12-27-2011 12:04 AM
  8. threed61's Avatar
    I think that Microsoft has been addressing this lately. I think maybe they planned that they could produce lesser spec'ed products (and therefore slightly cheaper) that had the same user experience (eg: fluidity). However, that isn't how Americans have been trained to see. Thanks to big Apple reveals and Androids poor performance, Americans are always looking for the next big upgrade--not a downgrade.
    American consumers are looking for more options. They shouldn't have to answer the question 'what do you need more memory for', they should have expansion options. They don't need to hear 198 ppi res is good enough you don't really need HD.
    They've been trained to expect more for their money.
    12-27-2011 12:16 AM
  9. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    American consumers are looking for more options. They shouldn't have to answer the question 'what do you need more memory for', they should have expansion options. They don't need to hear 198 ppi res is good enough you don't really need HD.
    They've been trained to expect more for their money.
    Yeah, I didn't mean to sound defensive of MS. I think that they were trying to go down a certain path, but they were wrong in assuming that people would follow.

    As for the expansion slots, I am pretty sure everyone is getting rid of those. I really enjoyed this article: Why Google wants to kill SD cards, and what's holding them back

    The resolution is a pity, but all I can do is hope that they're working on it. I can't believe they started with such a low resolution when trying to prevent fragmentation. How did they not see this coming?
    12-27-2011 01:07 AM
  10. jason404's Avatar
    The resolution is not low and the affordable handsets have not even come out yet. The low-end Android handsets have a lower resolution, last time I looked.

    Anyway, I think the biggest problem for WP by far is that Microsoft and Windows are not deemed as cool, most people who do not have particular love for any brand will just follow the crowd.

    For example I still use my Hotmail account for personal email, which I made in the '90s. Many times I have been asked why I don't use GMail instead. I have a GMail account but I hate the way the IMAP folders are setup and I actually prefer the Hotmail web interface. Hotmail also has a junk filter which is just as good if not better. What's so good about GMail? "My grandmother uses Hotmail".
    12-28-2011 07:21 AM
  11. EVVJSK's Avatar
    This is going to be my little mini-blog, so enjoy. :)

    So I've been saying this for about half a year now, but every time I bring it up, it seems to get swept under the rug. Although there have been a lot of developments about this issue in the past few months, I still believe this to be true. In the foreseeable future, I don't see Windows Phone taking off in the United States. However, I believe it is going to gain massive attraction in other parts of the world.

    Why don't I think it is going to take off in the United States? Mainly, the carriers. Sure, AT&T has been doing a good job in having some variety, but we all know even they could be doing better. Aside from the usual carrier bias complaint, the most alarming fact is that carriers in the U.S. are so much more powerful than in every other country in the world. Not only do they like to have carrier-exclusivity (no sharing of phones), but the largest carrier in the country is Verizon--a CDMA carrier pushing LTE (things that are extremely rare in the rest of the world). This brings me to the OEMs.

    Thank goodness we have Nokia on our side. Honestly, if it weren't for Nokia, I would have already lost all hope for another Windows Phone device on Verizon (and maybe Sprint, although I'm still hopeful for that LG phone). For other OEMs, it wouldn't make sense to make more than one or two Windows Phone devices, since they aren't selling well right now. Nokia, however, needs to strike every vein it can in order to stay afloat. Why would Samsung make an equivalent to the Flash and the S for other carriers? T-Mob doesn't have enough people and Verizon and Sprint are both CDMA. (I'm honestly guessing that AT&T turned down the HTC Radar because of the Flash and therefore HTC took it to TMob.) Nokia, though, isn't going to be in this position, though. They need brand recognition. Everyone that I've mentioned the new Nokia phones to here in the States say that they didn't even know Nokia still existed (also something the U.S. carriers are responsible for ;) ). In order for Nokia to make a presence in the States, they'll need to make a big deal of themselves. I can't wait to see what they're going to do, as right now, they are my only hope (insert Princess Leia/R2D2 picture here).

    Why do I think Windows Phone is going to take off in the rest of the world? There are a few reasons. Besides the fact that the operating system is just flat out amazing, perhaps the biggest reason is the availability of different price points. WP7 as an OS is very versatile. It is really light, so it can run on cheap devices, but it also looks really great on high end devices. Throw in the upcoming Tango update, which will aim for more markets and price points, as well as Nokia and Microsoft already claiming that they want to push down prices of Windows Phones to new lows for smartphones (note: this doesn't make much of a difference in the US, due to carrier subsidies--another reason I think American carriers are making it harder for WP), and you've got everything covered from emerging markets to major countries covered.

    This is what I've been thinking for a while now and it feels so good to finally let it out. :P What do you think of the matter? Do you think this entire post is moot now that Nokia is in the game? Or do you think we just need more time? Let me know. :)

    PS: Thanks for reading!
    Some good points. It will be interesting to see what happens with India and possibly China. 2 Billion possible customers can make a company some money, even if it doesn't catch fire in other countries. In looking at the chance for success of WP (and to some degree Nokia WP), I have the following thoughts:
    1. Timing is critical over the next 6 months. Can HTML5 be ubiquitous enough so that the lack of Adobe Flash doesn't hurt WP (Apple iOS already has enough traction that web site operators will make iOS compatible feeds of video, audio, etc..., but WP doesn't have enough traction for that. This may not be a big deal in India or China, but likely will in Europe and U.S. if people can't use WP for content they want to see.
    2. Can Microsoft/Nokia themselves (or some 3rd party they hire) develop the killer application that no other Phone OS has that will drive people to want WP ? Microsoft and Nokia used to be decent at driving innovation, but no so much in the last 2 years. Facebook, Twitter, etc... won't do it here, it has to be new enough that WP can get AHEAD of the curve. The bad things about this is, it can't just be a Microsoft only service because for the backend to be a significant draw, it also has to be something that can eventually have a client on other platforms (the days of a WP only successful product are over).
    3. Microsoft and Nokia have to differentiate themselves more than they currently have (and what I see possible with Mango). This may mean that Nokia comes out with a Physical QWERTY keyboard phone for all the ex Symbian/Blackberry users who want a Physical keyboard. This seems to me to be an ignored segment of the market, but I have yet to hear anything about a phone like this from Nokia (not even sure if WP would support it, but I gotta believe Nokia could make it happen if it wanted to).
    Hope that help extend this discussion. I came here because I was looking for an interesting place to discuss where Nokia is going as the Nokia Conversations site is very little about a 2 way Conversation (as much as the name would imply) and more about Nokia staff telling everyone what they SHOULD want (an example is how many times they trot out the same information about a phone/feature (i.e. Nokia N8 camera) and try to make it seem like it is news. I saw this post and thought it would at least be an interesting place to see where the discussion goes.
    threed61 likes this.
    12-28-2011 08:31 AM
  12. mprice86's Avatar
    I still don't understand why OEMs have to produce 3-4 or more variants of a handset for each of the different carriers in the States. It just seems insane. When a phone is launched here in the UK it's the same across all networks.

    That said, I agree with the crux of your post, that it's down to the carriers in America holding WP7 back rather than it not being good enough. But aside from the marketing angle there's something else which you can maybe confirm for me. Mobile contracts in the States seem to be almost prohibitively expensive, especially mobile broadband allowance. If networks are going to ask their customers to pay out so much cash why would anyone take a risk on something new?

    Maybe you don't think they're expensive but I pay 30 a month for my contract which gives 600 mins, unlimited messages and 1gb of internet and the phone was free. The sales guy was also happy to get a handset from the back and let me play with it for a bit and didn't try and sway me towards Android or iPhone.

    To me it just seems like carriers in America aren't convinced themselves of WP7 and until they are there's very little that can be done to improve its standing in the States among average consumers.
    12-28-2011 02:32 PM
  13. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    Hope that help extend this discussion. I came here because I was looking for an interesting place to discuss where Nokia is going as the Nokia Conversations site is very little about a 2 way Conversation (as much as the name would imply) and more about Nokia staff telling everyone what they SHOULD want (an example is how many times they trot out the same information about a phone/feature (i.e. Nokia N8 camera) and try to make it seem like it is news. I saw this post and thought it would at least be an interesting place to see where the discussion goes.
    Thanks. I really enjoy having discussions like this, as well. I'm no professional analyst, but I like to take shots in the dark and see how close I can get. I'm glad to see that there are others that enjoy having level-headed discussions about not only the good, but the concerning as well.

    Some good points. It will be interesting to see what happens with India and possibly China. 2 Billion possible customers can make a company some money, even if it doesn't catch fire in other countries.
    Exactly. I meant to have a final paragraph in my post that went along the lines of "so what if it doesn't catch on in the States?" However, my post was already longer than I intended and I omitted it. I wish analysts, bloggers, and the general online population would realize that just because something might not be successful in North America and Europe doesn't mean it isn't successful. The large majority of the world's population is in East and South Asia.

    1. Timing is critical over the next 6 months. Can HTML5 be ubiquitous enough so that the lack of Adobe Flash doesn't hurt WP (Apple iOS already has enough traction that web site operators will make iOS compatible feeds of video, audio, etc..., but WP doesn't have enough traction for that. This may not be a big deal in India or China, but likely will in Europe and U.S. if people can't use WP for content they want to see.
    I never thought about HTML5 being a big deal. I haven't run into any problems with my WP, but I feel like I use apps to view videos instead of IE9. I wonder how others view it.

    2. Can Microsoft/Nokia themselves (or some 3rd party they hire) develop the killer application that no other Phone OS has that will drive people to want WP ? Microsoft and Nokia used to be decent at driving innovation, but no so much in the last 2 years. Facebook, Twitter, etc... won't do it here, it has to be new enough that WP can get AHEAD of the curve. The bad things about this is, it can't just be a Microsoft only service because for the backend to be a significant draw, it also has to be something that can eventually have a client on other platforms (the days of a WP only successful product are over).
    This is what I was hoping for with the XBox companion, XBL games (like Kinectimals), and Office, but it seems like they are all going to iOS. I just don't understand...

    3. Microsoft and Nokia have to differentiate themselves more than they currently have (and what I see possible with Mango). This may mean that Nokia comes out with a Physical QWERTY keyboard phone for all the ex Symbian/Blackberry users who want a Physical keyboard. This seems to me to be an ignored segment of the market, but I have yet to hear anything about a phone like this from Nokia (not even sure if WP would support it, but I gotta believe Nokia could make it happen if it wanted to).
    There have been rumors that there will be a Nokia phone with a keyboard. Not having a keyboard isn't a Windows Phone OS restriction, but a manufacturer choice. There have been some WPs with keyboards, but they haven't been as successful as others. I think having a keyboard is more of an optional feature (since it is aimed at a specific type of consumer) and right now there aren't enough Windows Phones to cover the basics. Of course I think the DVP could have been the best Windows Phone if it hadn't had so many software and support troubles.
    12-28-2011 02:57 PM
  14. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    I still don't understand why OEMs have to produce 3-4 or more variants of a handset for each of the different carriers in the States. It just seems insane. When a phone is launched here in the UK it's the same across all networks.

    That said, I agree with the crux of your post, that it's down to the carriers in America holding WP7 back rather than it not being good enough. But aside from the marketing angle there's something else which you can maybe confirm for me. Mobile contracts in the States seem to be almost prohibitively expensive, especially mobile broadband allowance. If networks are going to ask their customers to pay out so much cash why would anyone take a risk on something new?

    Maybe you don't think they're expensive but I pay 30 a month for my contract which gives 600 mins, unlimited messages and 1gb of internet and the phone was free. The sales guy was also happy to get a handset from the back and let me play with it for a bit and didn't try and sway me towards Android or iPhone.

    To me it just seems like carriers in America aren't convinced themselves of WP7 and until they are there's very little that can be done to improve its standing in the States among average consumers.
    I didn't know carriers outside of the States subsidized phones. That's neat to know. I thought that overseas the phones were more expensive (well, at least to consumers), but the carriers were cheaper.

    Which phone did you get? Some phones are free here as well. Also, prices vary greatly between carriers. There are AT&T and Verizon, which are the most expensive, but have the greatest coverage. I am on a family plan on Verizon and I have unlimited data, unlimited text, but only 1400 minutes split between three people. My part of the bill is about $45 (which is about the same as your bill). I definitely have one of the cheapest options at Verizon, since I'm grandfathered in to older prices, though.
    12-28-2011 04:49 PM
  15. lumic's Avatar
    Microsoft has always said (sans Andy Lees) that Windows Phone is about gradual growth. I am hoping to see a massive push of both Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8, but I fear that the importance of Windows 8 to Microsoft's bottom line will mean that Apollo will end up dejected in a corner.

    As for subsidisation outside of the US - in some countries, it is the norm to buy unlocked. In Australia, majority of transactions are through carriers, but the differentiation is with the monthly payments. An interesting thing with the US is that the differentiation is with the initial price - something that makes very little sense.

    For example, say you are on a $50 plan for 24 months. The cheap smartphone might be $50 upfront, which will mean a total of $1250 over two years. The expensive smartphone is $200 upfront - $1400. In the grand scheme of things, is that $150 really such a deal-breaker?

    In Australia, pretty much no phones have an upfront cost. A high-end phone (Galaxy Nexus) will launch on a $59 plan over 24 months - $1416. An older phone (Desire Z / G2) might be on a $29 plan for 24 months - $696.
    Last edited by lumic; 12-28-2011 at 10:27 PM.
    12-28-2011 10:20 PM
  16. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    As for subsidisation outside of the US - in some countries, it is the norm to buy unlocked. In Australia, majority of transactions are through carriers, but the differentiation is with the monthly payments. An interesting thing with the US is that the differentiation is with the initial price - something that makes very little sense.

    For example, say you are on a $50 plan for 24 months. The cheap smartphone might be $50 upfront, which will mean a total of $1250 over two years. The expensive smartphone is $200 upfront - $1400. In the grand scheme of things, is that $150 really such a deal-breaker?

    In Australia, pretty much no phones have an upfront cost. A high-end phone (Galaxy Nexus) will launch on a $59 plan over 24 months - $1416. An older phone (Desire Z / G2) might be on a $29 plan for 24 months - $696.
    I've always enjoyed looking at different payment structures from around the world. Here, it is viewed as, "if you'll sign a two-year contract with us for $X/mo for X amount of minutes, texts, and data, we will greatly reduce the price of any phone you choose." They don't act like the price of the phone is worked into the monthly bill. Of course, then you can look at it as $50 phone divided by 24 months or $200 phone divided by 24 months to better see how much you are actually getting out of your phone for its price.

    It is also becoming more obvious to people I've talked to that the price of the phone isn't what is keeping people from getting a smartphone. Instead, people are realizing that the data plans are actually gouging their pockets. Because of this, it matters a lot less if someone in the US gets a free smartphone or a $200 smartphone.

    Why so much negative and pessimistic treads about WP? Why can't we just enjoy our phones and then spread the word about how great our phones are? That is key to success of WP.
    Believe me. I enjoy WP and preach its awesomeness just as much as anyone else here, but I also enjoy looking at the bigger picture. I like to see how things are going, how they got here, and where they might be in the future. I'm not saying that Windows Phone is doomed--in fact, I actually think it is going to flourish in other parts of the world. It isn't negative or pessimistic. It is concerned and analytical.
    12-29-2011 03:01 PM
  17. jfa1's Avatar
    I think WP isn't going to do as well as we hope not for the reasons you listed, but because for the most part, the American Public are sheep. They don't want to think about what device and OS makes the best fit for them. They aren't going to look at it and compare and try it out and give it a chance. For the most part, they want the decision made FOR them and the reality of the numbers and market share point to Droid and iOS.
    Those of us who visit these forums KNOW what is the better OS. We're not the ones that need to be sold on it. WE need to preach the message to others; our friends and families that are looking for advice. We also need public and visible champions for WP. Sure there have been articles from some high profile people about how they are switching to WP, but that's not the same say as seeing someone like Tiger Woods or Beyonce using it. (Blackberry used to have a forum for posting pics of celebrities using Blackberries)

    Droid is on a roll right now. Whether it is stable or performs well is irrelevant. What matters is their marketing people are going gangbusters feeding the drones that are the American consumers exactly what they want to see. That by picking a Droid, they can't be wrong. I mean for Christ's Sake! Even the Muppets are on Google+ !!! Does WP have something like that? No.... WP needs some champions and needs it NOW.

    MS needs to start doing some HEAVY marketing and PR efforts showing people that a WP is a sound, viable, riskless decision. I hate to say it, but they need to pull out ads showing how a WP can do everything that Droids and iOS devices can do, but in a simpler, more streamlined way. I hate these types of ads as they are coming from a point of weakness (which is the case here) and you don't really want to do that.

    Oh well, that's just my rambling thoughts. Anyone else?
    I think you are right I have a friend who is a phone hound he switches phones a lot for a while he was on ATT and had an Iphone and something else I got his focus. He tried android and when VZN got the iphone he switched to that and then he got rid of the iphone and got a Bionic it was a pos and he now has the Rezound. I suspect that's common with android if a device does not work you get rid of of it and get another when that quits or goes crazy you get another one. maybe at some point he'll come back to windows phone mayube when it gets dual core and a titamesque scgreen that is 4.5 or larger.


    I am mostly very happy with the focus I stil haven't tried the sdcard upgrade memory thing and probably wont. I will keep the card and hope that Win 8 tablets will have a microsd card slot for added memory. If not my wife can use it for camera storage.
    12-29-2011 04:17 PM
  18. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    ...I suspect that's common with android if a device does not work you get rid of of it and get another when that quits or goes crazy you get another one...
    Hahahah! I know a few Android fanbois that are like that. They are always looking for the next upgrade because they think it will fix their buggy and slow OS. If only they'd take WP seriously... :(
    12-30-2011 12:58 AM
  19. mprice86's Avatar
    I didn't know carriers outside of the States subsidized phones. That's neat to know. I thought that overseas the phones were more expensive (well, at least to consumers), but the carriers were cheaper.

    Which phone did you get? Some phones are free here as well. Also, prices vary greatly between carriers. There are AT&T and Verizon, which are the most expensive, but have the greatest coverage. I am on a family plan on Verizon and I have unlimited data, unlimited text, but only 1400 minutes split between three people. My part of the bill is about $45 (which is about the same as your bill). I definitely have one of the cheapest options at Verizon, since I'm grandfathered in to older prices, though.
    From what I've seen if you were to buy a handset outright it would be cheaper in America, but on contract I certainly think the customers here are getting a better deal. I did a check up on the Verizon website before I posted previously to make sure I was right about things in America.

    As an example, from what I could work out with Verizon, you would pay $199 for a Galaxy Nexus and then about $60-70 per month for a contract with data. For the same phone on Vodafone UK you get the handset free on a 41 contract which includes 1200mins, unlimited texts and 750mb of internet. (Obviously the mobile broadband allowance there sucks but they cut out unlimited once they realised it was faster than most peoples home connections and people were using bit torrent over it.)

    Anyway, I got the Lumia 800 free on that contract which is pretty good deal. UK carriers have been subsidising for years, but some offer significantly better deals than others. Oddly enough the networks here seem to be roughly on par for prices regardless of coverage, or rather the plans are on a par, the handsets you can get for your monthly cost will be significantly better on some networks than others.
    12-30-2011 03:51 PM
  20. Premium1's Avatar
    I think WP isn't going to do as well as we hope not for the reasons you listed, but because for the most part, the American Public are sheep. They don't want to think about what device and OS makes the best fit for them. They aren't going to look at it and compare and try it out and give it a chance. For the most part, they want the decision made FOR them and the reality of the numbers and market share point to Droid and iOS.
    Those of us who visit these forums KNOW what is the better OS. We're not the ones that need to be sold on it. WE need to preach the message to others; our friends and families that are looking for advice. We also need public and visible champions for WP. Sure there have been articles from some high profile people about how they are switching to WP, but that's not the same say as seeing someone like Tiger Woods or Beyonce using it. (Blackberry used to have a forum for posting pics of celebrities using Blackberries)

    Droid is on a roll right now. Whether it is stable or performs well is irrelevant. What matters is their marketing people are going gangbusters feeding the drones that are the American consumers exactly what they want to see. That by picking a Droid, they can't be wrong. I mean for Christ's Sake! Even the Muppets are on Google+ !!! Does WP have something like that? No.... WP needs some champions and needs it NOW.

    MS needs to start doing some HEAVY marketing and PR efforts showing people that a WP is a sound, viable, riskless decision. I hate to say it, but they need to pull out ads showing how a WP can do everything that Droids and iOS devices can do, but in a simpler, more streamlined way. I hate these types of ads as they are coming from a point of weakness (which is the case here) and you don't really want to do that.

    Oh well, that's just my rambling thoughts. Anyone else?
    Saying one OS is better is all up to the person using it. Not to mention many consumers make a decision for themselves and aren't "sheep" like you claim. They could say the same about those wp7 users....
    1jaxstate1 likes this.
    01-02-2012 11:54 AM
  21. Blacklac's Avatar
    This is something that actually worries me. Is there a reason MS isn't going all-in with Windows Phone?
    My opinion is, they know Mango still isn't a "complete" OS. Android is on 4.0 and iOS is on 5.0. Even Blackberry is at their OS 7, but will start over next year. WP is essentially 1.5. I think they are waiting until they feel its "complete" to give the big US push. I could be wrong.
    01-02-2012 12:02 PM
  22. Premium1's Avatar
    My opinion is, they know Mango still isn't a "complete" OS. Android is on 4.0 and iOS is on 5.0. Even Blackberry is at their OS 7, but will start over next year. WP is essentially 1.5. I think they are waiting until they feel its "complete" to give the big US push. I could be wrong.
    Or they know they are making more off of android than they will off wp so they are just riding the android wave now.
    01-02-2012 12:52 PM
  23. Judge_Daniel's Avatar
    Or they know they are making more off of android than they will off wp so they are just riding the android wave now.
    That is a pretty good point. Why worry about North American and European consumers when MS still makes so much money off of Android? It would make sense for them to really push Windows Phone in emerging markets, where Microsoft might not be as ingrained as it is here. That would explain why Microsoft would want to push prices down before they work toward the high-end spectrum.
    01-02-2012 01:27 PM
  24. De doublesman's Avatar
    Being a long time Nokia user ( 10 years) , nokia definitely has what it takes to go on an all out assault with WP7 in the US.

    They will bring alot to the US market in terms of a great combination of hardware and software with WP7.

    People in the US want and look forward too that all in one type of device , great camera, sexy hardware and silky smooth software tightly integrated with their everyday programs. WP7 offers that and much more for the future.

    There is no reason why nokia cant make a big impression on the US consumer. Of course we all know that nokia and microsoft wont grab a nice slice of the market share straight up right away. But it will be a big enough splash to get the consumer excited once more about smartphones.

    When you look around at other WP7 phones like samsung and Htc, in my opinion there are some decent hardware out there but nothing compared to what nokia can bring to the table in terms of the hardware design and camera. Nokia rules the roost in these departments hands down.

    I went into and AT&T store yesterday to check on my upgrade date which is the 11th of this month and while walking around the store checking out different WP7 phones, i pulled out my Nokia N9 to fire off a few text messages and i was amazed at the amount of attention i got from the AT&T customer service reps.

    They absolutely loved the hardware design of the N9 and actually told me that they know the lumia 800 is going to be released with the same N9 hardware but with WP7 baked in. They held the N9 , played with it , looked at it and they just loved it.

    This is going to be an exciting year for Microsoft and Nokia , samsung and htc etc will have to step up their game big time now.
    01-02-2012 03:35 PM
  25. Premium1's Avatar
    That is a pretty good point. Why worry about North American and European consumers when MS still makes so much money off of Android? It would make sense for them to really push Windows Phone in emerging markets, where Microsoft might not be as ingrained as it is here. That would explain why Microsoft would want to push prices down before they work toward the high-end spectrum.
    Not to mention if they are doing it because of this if they went all in and android declined they would lose out on lots of $$.
    01-02-2012 04:56 PM
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