03-03-2012 08:23 AM
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  1. bilzkh's Avatar
    Lets be honest here, Windows Phone doesn't have the same competition iPhone did back 2-3 years ago, nor is WP an affordable/different alternative to iPhone that Android (with immense OEM support no less) is since 2-years ago.

    These two have established firm footholds in the market, no matter how "good" Windows Phone is in performance, and I daresay even specs, it's going to fight a serious uphill battle. Even Blackberry is better positioned than WP, and I bet BB10 might do better in sales than Apollo - who knows.

    I guarantee you that when we have Apollo handsets we'll all be complaining about something missing. Doesn't help when we have the self-fulfilling prophecy of OEMs/carriers claiming WP doesn't sell but do little to actually push it.

    Right now, the only thing keeping WP afloat is Nokia's desperation and Microsoft's return into the mobile market. It is going to be joint Nokia-Microsoft marketing and pushes that will make the difference, unless of course we see Sony come out of nowhere and also fully commit itself to WP8 (unlikely).

    I personally think we're in a huge cycle, right now people are just going through their iOS and Android devices, Windows Phone is holding out for that position being something new to "try out." Lower cost handsets such as the Lumia 610 and 710 are going to be key, look around this board or even the web, solid iOS/Android fans are willing to check out Lumia 610/710 as a secondary device, others are looking into gifting Lumia 800/900 even though they themselves own iPhone/Galaxy Nexus.

    This period within consumer taste is where I think Microsoft/Nokia are looking to tap into besides the current feature phone/transition users. Wait it out and be affordable enough so that your handsets end up as interesting enough to buy (cheap). The positive reviews are helping, we just need to keep holding on in terms of time.
    snowmutt likes this.
    03-01-2012 11:08 PM
  2. Winterfang's Avatar
    I'm already doing that.

    MS already knows what its doing , they just take their sweet time and customers are strait up just impatient.

    if they dint know what they where doing , then they would have bankrupt a looong time ago.
    6months ago MS was top 6 int he world... they must know whats up!

    Click to view quoted image
    Nestle on top of Microsoft? Nestle is such an evil company :(
    snowmutt and threed61 like this.
    03-01-2012 11:31 PM
  3. snowmutt's Avatar
    Lets be honest here, Windows Phone doesn't have the same competition iPhone did back 2-3 years ago, nor is WP an affordable/different alternative to iPhone that Android (with immense OEM support no less) is since 2-years ago.

    These two have established firm footholds in the market, no matter how "good" Windows Phone is in performance, and I daresay even specs, it's going to fight a serious uphill battle. Even Blackberry is better positioned than WP, and I bet BB10 might do better in sales than Apollo - who knows.

    I guarantee you that when we have Apollo handsets we'll all be complaining about something missing. Doesn't help when we have the self-fulfilling prophecy of OEMs/carriers claiming WP doesn't sell but do little to actually push it.

    Right now, the only thing keeping WP afloat is Nokia's desperation and Microsoft's return into the mobile market. It is going to be joint Nokia-Microsoft marketing and pushes that will make the difference, unless of course we see Sony come out of nowhere and also fully commit itself to WP8 (unlikely).

    I personally think we're in a huge cycle, right now people are just going through their iOS and Android devices, Windows Phone is holding out for that position being something new to "try out." Lower cost handsets such as the Lumia 610 and 710 are going to be key, look around this board or even the web, solid iOS/Android fans are willing to check out Lumia 610/710 as a secondary device, others are looking into gifting Lumia 800/900 even though they themselves own iPhone/Galaxy Nexus.

    This period within consumer taste is where I think Microsoft/Nokia are looking to tap into besides the current feature phone/transition users. Wait it out and be affordable enough so that your handsets end up as interesting enough to buy (cheap). The positive reviews are helping, we just need to keep holding on in terms of time.
    Very, very level headed evaluation. I hope you are wrong about BB10 outselling Apollo, but you probably aren't. Crackberry crowd is a very dedicated, established one. I think WP is better set for the future, but 2013 most likely not be the year it passes Blackberry. Maybe pull even with.
    03-02-2012 11:23 AM
  4. Speebs's Avatar
    He means not having WiFi go to sleep when the phone does. My Focus S seems to have that issue as well, but it's not consistent.



    I think one of us is misinterpereting what he said. I took it to mean separate Ringer and Notification volumes. Something that is incredibly useful.



    He's coming from the direction of, MS touts it's messaging experience, and neglects an extremely popular message client. You use BBM as an example, which is a terrible argument. BBM is a closed system. Google Talk is something any chat client can plug into. MS never bought Facebook that I remember, but you can use facebook chat...



    If that's what Microsoft wants, that's unintuitive and inconsistent. If that's how they wanted you to do it, they wouldn't have a way to start a new message thread in the messaging app.



    That is a terrible argument. WP7 notifications are as bad as iOS 4 notifications, if less intrusive. They pop up, and go away. Never to be seen again, except a number on a live tile that you may or may not have on your screen (such as the red dot in iOS). Screen space is precious, only 8 apps fit on your main page without scrolling. They need a persistent notification center in my opinion. You would be free to not use it, but I carry around a device from all three platforms, and this is my #1 gripe about WP7.



    Yay, the few people that go for that will be happy. Homebrew/Jailbreak/Root solutions are weak things to rely on at best. With Windows Phone, it's worse since it's even harder to fully unlock these phones compared to any major platform.



    Have you used an iPhone recently?

    Click to view quoted image


    Notifications with a quick launch into the app that sent them. Android does this too, but it's in a pulldown.



    Again, I don't really buy into "there's an app to fix that" argument. Most people won't know they are there.

    A lot of these are features that WP7 is lacking, and people want. I'd have a few of my own as well.

    1) Why is there 30 levels of volume to choose from? I cannot tell the difference between 24 and 23. 1-20, 1-15, 1-10 even would be better.

    2) Make live tiles a little more useful. I love not having to go into an app to see a bit of information, but for some apps, that's actually faster than sitting staring at the home screen waiting for it to flip. Let there be a gesture (double tap?) that flips the tile over right then.

    3) Better background services. They aren't up to par. For example, skype can't work when not in app. That's not helpful.

    4) Make the "pull from top" more consistent. I hate having to go to my home screen to see the time/battery level/signal strength when in an app that doesn't allow for a pull down gesture.

    5) Work on making the camera not launch in the pocket. I take so many pocket pictures, and my pants are not tight. Should not be hard with the proximity sensor.

    6) Keep going after those developers. They have a lot of the major apps, but more than a few don't hold a candle to the versions on the big OS's. Other's aren't there at all. My mom's a normal average consumer. She almost took her Focus Flash back because she was missing out on apps that others around her have. She still may.

    7) While on the topic of courting third parties, trying to convince accessory makers to get their act together (and making USB accessory access a real thing) would be appreciated.

    8) Better Xbox integration. It's alright, but why can't I control my Xbox from my phone? I hate the Xbox on screen keyboard, why can't my phone do that. Why can't my Xbox act in a similar fashion as the apple TV, letting me send my phone screen to the big screen. This could be where WP7 shines, and I see them falling short here.

    9) Backup and restore apps, app data, and system data to Zune.

    I'm sure I can think of more. WP7.5 is an awesome platform, don't get me wrong. I could make great lists of features the two big platforms are missing as well. But WP7 is a bit farther behind the curve I think. If I were microsoft, this wouldn't have been the time to make a super special effort catering the low end, when Gen 1 phones would do a great job at filling in the low end gap.
    This guy gets it.


    And to those chastising me about the IE "back" button thing... I was mistaken. I swear that when I tried it last, it kept dumping me back to the last open app, but I just tried it and it is working as expected.
    03-02-2012 02:30 PM
  5. kylej1050's Avatar
    Think - Nokia Apollo handsets running multi cores, high screen res, and 40+ MP cameras that'll sync across Windows/Xbox Live services via the cloud and share compatibility with apps downloaded via a PC or tablet. I don't know about anyone, but I'm stoked for what's on the horizon.
    Be so sweet to whip out survivalcraft on my PC to screw off at work. Especially if it acted just like the phone and I can hit back a couple times when the boss walks up to pretend i'm working :P
    03-02-2012 03:52 PM
  6. bilzkh's Avatar
    Very, very level headed evaluation. I hope you are wrong about BB10 outselling Apollo, but you probably aren't. Crackberry crowd is a very dedicated, established one. I think WP is better set for the future, but 2013 most likely not be the year it passes Blackberry. Maybe pull even with.
    Thanks, and a further indication of the "cheap, but interesting" thesis, Rogers (Canada) may price Lumia 900 at $499 w/o contract. That is $150 and $100 cheaper than Samsung Galaxy S2 and Galaxy Nexus, respectively.

    We shouldn't see it as Microsoft trying to edge out iOS or Android, but rather, cement itself permanently in the mobile market as a serious player. Despite RIM's bigger marketshare and clout, its image has been damaged and hence it's not uncommon to see people tout Windows Phone for 3rd place - despite its marginal position. Nonetheless, whatever happens, the lower price point Lumia phones - despite lower hardware specs - will be vital to WP's success.

    If Lumia 900 (LTE) at Rogers IS priced at $499, then you will have plenty of transition users interested. They'll notice the cheaper price and in turn will look up Lumia 900 reviews online, and it'll be a serious contender. At least at Rogers I noticed carrier reps actually saying that Lumia 710 is a "good" or "slick" phone, that should help. Besides your transition user, I think even diehard iOS/Android users will consider Lumia 900 (or at least 610/710) as a secondary device, hey they all stand out of the crowd, right? Others will end up buying the Lumias as gifts for loved ones.

    Many possibilities, but we need to think a little positive with what we have and we need to market this phone as a reality, not an upstart. Only then will people come down and see Windows Phone for what it is, "a great device", nothing more and nothing less.
    03-02-2012 11:24 PM
  7. Big Supes's Avatar
    My assessment is really just based on the opportunities out there compared to how long WP has been a player. I call the 2010 roll out of WP a "soft start"- they released a handful of devices with a limited number of features in a very small area. They released the Nodo update and evaluated how well they handled it. Basically, I see a real life soak test.

    2011 was the real release, mostly at the end of the year. HTC released the Titan and Samsung released the Focus S. People were excited. Nokia unleashed their handsets, and people saw the great potential. Europe, Japan, and Asia had their first WP handsets announced. The Mango update went off with barely a hitch, and we saw WP hit the ground running going into this year.

    But, if not this year, when? Almost all the business Blackberry has lost has gone to the iPhone and Android. Most analysts think this will be the first year that Smartphone sales and ownership will be larger than Feature phone ownership. In other words those two sets of device owners are moving on. If WP wants to build it's own audience beyond the 2%-5% they already own, they HAVE to be trending upwards by 2013.

    I am not worried for WP so long as there is growth. 10% worldwide sales with Nokia and Tango hitting the developing markets, great presence in Europe, great devices on AT&T in the US, and manufacturers like ZTE and Fujitsu having handsets out in their markets is realistic.
    This makes sense, but I don't see how a steady rise in sales (worst case scenario) is deemed as a failure - if MS hasn't achieved 10% market share by the end of this year. '3 years to succeed' is incredibly short sighted considering this race will run throughout Microsoft's existence, IMO. While I agree 10% is achievable, MS seem to be pacing themselves, developing the platform & ecosystem for the long haul.

    Besides, I am betting that the Mayans are wrong. I am thinking one Mayan said to the other "Hey- if we end it like this, do you think we can mess with people?" Heck, I am a Christian who doesn't even buy Revelations as an end of the world thing. I have been in TONS of arguments on that one!!

    As a side note, The world IS supposed to end on my Daughters 21st B-Day. She will be 21 on 12/21/2012. I told her to drink fast and run a tab.
    HA! I couldn't think of any better advice. :D
    03-03-2012 05:00 AM
  8. Big Supes's Avatar
    I disagree Supes, Microsoft needs to be feature part with Apple. I don't understand how people can say that with Mango Microsoft is on par (and specially when they say maybe even surpassed) the other OS, when we don't even had Pandora.

    Have they not have any shame? did you know that the USA Today app had their app downloaded the less by Windows Phone, even the webOS tablet surpass it by almost double margin. That's trouble right there.
    Sorry, Winterfang. I nearly missed this.....

    Context is key here... most people don't judge an OS on the amount of apps available for it. Metro UI and live tiles, indeed, arguably surpass the outdated iOS. No one is factoring apps when they're talking specifically about UI comparisons.


    We cannot compete against Apple without Apps and cannot compete against Google without Phones. Microsoft and Nokia can win all the awards they want but as of right now, Windows Phone is just impossible to recommend, that's why salesmen are not even trying.
    Although I had never even heard of Pandora up until signing up with WP Central, I agree that apps are important. Regarding the USA app, unless I'm missing the point, isn't it obvious that the platform with the least users will have the least downloads? WP is on the rise and it won't be long before it's massive outside of the US. This will automatically bring the apps. It's just a case of the chicken and the egg. Apps first - then the UI? Or UI, then bring the apps? My logic sways towards the latter if you want to build a solid OS.


    EDIT: BTW, Sales reps in the UK are pushing the Windows Phone. :)
    Last edited by Big Supes; 03-03-2012 at 05:36 AM.
    muffasa likes this.
    03-03-2012 05:19 AM
  9. scottcraft's Avatar
    Sorry, Winterfang. I nearly missed this.....



    Context is key here... most people don't judge an OS on the amount of apps available for it. Metro UI and live tiles, indeed, arguably surpass the outdated iOS. No one is factoring apps when they're talking specifically about UI comparisons.









    Although I had never even heard of Pandora up until signing up with WP Central, I agree that apps are important. Regarding the USA app, unless I'm missing the point, isn't it obvious that the platform with the least users will have the least downloads? WP is on the rise and it won't be long before it's massive outside of the US. This will automatically bring the apps. It's just a case of the chicken and the egg. Apps first - then the UI? Or UI, then bring the apps? My logic sways towards the latter if you want to build a solid OS.





    EDIT: BTW, Sales reps in the UK are pushing the Windows Phone. :)
    The app situation is a chicken or egg problem like you said. The platform is too small for the big apps, but people don't want to buy without the big apps. I personally think WP has done well app-wise considering the market share. I think when it reaches 10% the floodgates will open and we will get all the apps we could want.

    Sent from my Windows7 Phone using Board Express
    03-03-2012 05:43 AM
  10. hwalker84's Avatar
    This guy gets it.


    And to those chastising me about the IE "back" button thing... I was mistaken. I swear that when I tried it last, it kept dumping me back to the last open app, but I just tried it and it is working as expected.
    The IE back button works while inside IE and never leaving.

    Try this: open IE surf the web. Hit the windows button. Go back into IE by just launching it. Hit the back button. IE will close not go to the previous page.
    03-03-2012 08:23 AM
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