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04-15-2012 05:19 PM
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  1. Eirenarch's Avatar
    Leaks from MS Nerd (he's leaked many things before and I can't recall any of them being false) says WP8 will come to current devices:

    IAMA someone who 'leaks' information about Microsoft's future plans. AMAA : casualiama

    There are some other interesting info and sadly he says he will be exiting "the game".

    Once again this is not official (like all the other info we have currently).

    Selected questions:

    Q: Are there metrics when MS will dump WP7 (eg consistently low market penetration for 5 years, 2 good non-nokia OEM devices per year) or will they be in it, no matter what it costs?
    A: In it no matter what it costs. That said, expect to see more cross-platform services, especially for iOS.

    Q: Windows Phones 1st, 2nd gen and Windows Phone 8. Any hope for upgrades?
    A: Yes, all current Windows Phones will receive a subset of Apollo. The carriers are the primary obstacle in the US. I hear Microsoft is pushing hard for a Mango-like delivery schedule, as are Nokia & HTC. Some Apollo features will be exclusive to the 3rd-gen devices expected to be released this fall on the MSM8960 platform.
    03-22-2012 09:01 AM
  2. dkp23's Avatar
    Reliable leaker also claim Windows Phone 8 is coming to all handsets | WMPoweruser

    Reliable leaker also claim Windows Phone 8 is coming to all handsets
    March 22, 2012 | By Surur

    MSNerd, who has been pretty reliable when it comes to Microsoft leaks, is getting out of the business, and is dumping all his insider knowledge along the way.

    There is much relevant on the Reddit page where he conducted the Q&A, such as that Zune is DOA, but the one hot-button issue which is bothering anyone considering buying a generation 2 Windows Phone is whether they will get Apollo eventually.

    In response to the question he writes:

    Windows Phones 1st, 2nd gen and Windows Phone 8. Any hope for upgrades?

    Yes, all current Windows Phones will receive a subset of Apollo. The carriers are the primary obstacle in the US. I hear Microsoft is pushing hard for a Mango-like delivery schedule, as are Nokia & HTC.

    Some Apollo features will be exclusive to the 3rd-gen devices expected to be released this fall on the MSM8960 platform.

    If true this is rather good news, and something Microsoft need to start reassuring buyers about before the release of the Nokia Lumia 900.

    On the other hand MSNerd also revealed that he is in fact not a Microsoft employee, so, despite his track record we he could still be completely wrong.

    As usual, we shall just have to wait and see.

    Grain of salt required.
    03-22-2012 10:48 AM
  3. jfa1's Avatar
    As always a grain or two of salt is required but he's been relaible in the past and what's he is saying is reasonable. He's saying different generations will be different subsets or parcels of Apollo enough to remain very functional but with a few perhaps very minor limitations. Enough to get through your contract in decent shape and get a newer phone on contract.
    03-22-2012 11:36 AM
  4. selfcreation's Avatar
    yeah and I cant see the limitations being THAT bad ,

    no FFC , NFC ... maybe some ecosystem/crost-platform feature might be missing . I dont think its gona be a big deal.
    03-22-2012 11:42 AM
  5. Eirenarch's Avatar
    Well after all you can't get OS features that require specific hardware on phones that do not have this hardware.
    03-22-2012 12:37 PM
  6. mparker's Avatar
    yeah and I cant see the limitations being THAT bad ,

    no FFC , NFC ... maybe some ecosystem/crost-platform feature might be missing . I dont think its gona be a big deal.
    I'm concerned about memory and speed. I'd be surprised if WP8 uses less RAM than WP7.5; what I expect is that we wind up being able to keep fewer apps in memory resulting in slower switching. I also suspect that the kernel will be somewhat slower, though I'm not sure how noticeable this will be.

    If I were Microsoft I'd do my best to get the Mango devices upgraded and running well but I don't think I would worry about upgrading 1st gen machines. They've got slower CPUs, slower GPUs, and slower flash memory. Also they'll be at the end of their contracts and the carriers and manufacturers are eager to sell them some new toys. To be honest, I don't want Microsoft pulling capabilities out of WP8 because they're worried about performance on those Gen1 devices, I want them looking forwards not backwards, I want them looking towards the hundreds of millions of devices they want to sell, not the few millions they sold last year.

    Android gets a lot of heat for fragmentation but Google's been good about updating their own handsets (the Nexus line). But even there they haven't been afraid to cut their ties with the past. The Nexus 1 handsets shipped with Froyo, and were upgraded to Gingerbread the next year, but this year they were abandoned by Ice Cream Sandwich due to RAM/GPU constraints.
    03-22-2012 04:18 PM
  7. canesfan625's Avatar
    I'm concerned about memory and speed. I'd be surprised if WP8 uses less RAM than WP7.5; what I expect is that we wind up being able to keep fewer apps in memory resulting in slower switching. I also suspect that the kernel will be somewhat slower, though I'm not sure how noticeable this will be.

    If I were Microsoft I'd do my best to get the Mango devices upgraded and running well but I don't think I would worry about upgrading 1st gen machines. They've got slower CPUs, slower GPUs, and slower flash memory. Also they'll be at the end of their contracts and the carriers and manufacturers are eager to sell them some new toys. To be honest, I don't want Microsoft pulling capabilities out of WP8 because they're worried about performance on those Gen1 devices, I want them looking forwards not backwards, I want them looking towards the hundreds of millions of devices they want to sell, not the few millions they sold last year.

    Android gets a lot of heat for fragmentation but Google's been good about updating their own handsets (the Nexus line). But even there they haven't been afraid to cut their ties with the past. The Nexus 1 handsets shipped with Froyo, and were upgraded to Gingerbread the next year, but this year they were abandoned by Ice Cream Sandwich due to RAM/GPU constraints.
    Why would the kernel be slower? The Windows 8 kernel runs better than Windows 7. Even to the point where the older the hardware the larger the increase over 7. There isn't anything at all to suggest any performance hit.
    03-23-2012 06:12 AM
  8. mparker's Avatar
    Why would the kernel be slower? The Windows 8 kernel runs better than Windows 7. Even to the point where the older the hardware the larger the increase over 7. There isn't anything at all to suggest any performance hit.
    Windows 8 definitely is faster than Windows 7 - on the desktop. But on the phone the Windows 8 kernel will be replacing the old Windows Mobile kernel, which had decades of tuning to run well on small-memory devices with slow CPUs. Meanwhile the Windows NT kernel has had decades of tuning to run well on multi-cpu devices with hyperthreading and gigabytes of RAM; there are a lot of places in the kernel that now have those sort of assumptions baked in (the memory manager is now tuned to manage 16GB to 1TB RAM, the mutex logic is now tuned for poly-core systems running hundreds of threads, etc).

    It is possible that the Windows 8 kernel as shipped in WP8 will be smaller and faster than the Windows Mobile 6.5 kernel that shipped in WP7/7.5 (20 yrs ago Windows NT 3.1 ran well in only 4MB after all). But it's by no means a slam-dunk, and Microsoft's unwillingness to publicly proclaim backwards compability with the Gen 1 and 2 devices should give us pause. I am skeptical that WP8 will support Gen 1 devices at all (I own a Gen 1 Focus), and while I hope that WP8 runs well on Gen 2 devices I won't be at all surprised if it doesn't.

    I also wouldn't be surprised if WP8 actually ships as two versions, a legacy version for WP7 devices that runs the old WM6.5 kernel but has the new UI and WP7.5 API with parts of WinRT, while the Apollo devices run the new WoA kernel and the full software stack (WP7.5 API + WinRT API) minus the special Office-only desktop mode.
    Last edited by mparker; 03-23-2012 at 08:57 AM.
    03-23-2012 08:39 AM
  9. canesfan625's Avatar
    Windows 8 definitely is faster than Windows 7 - on the desktop. But on the phone the Windows 8 kernel will be replacing the old Windows Mobile kernel, which had decades of tuning to run well on small-memory devices with slow CPUs. Meanwhile the Windows NT kernel has had decades of tuning to run well on multi-cpu devices with hyperthreading and gigabytes of RAM; there are a lot of places in the kernel that now have those sort of assumptions baked in (the memory manager is now tuned to manage 16GB to 1TB RAM, the mutex logic is now tuned for poly-core systems running hundreds of threads, etc).

    It is possible that the Windows 8 kernel as shipped in WP8 will be smaller and faster than the Windows Mobile 6.5 kernel that shipped in WP7/7.5 (20 yrs ago Windows NT 3.1 ran well in only 4MB after all). But it's by no means a slam-dunk, and Microsoft's unwillingness to publicly proclaim backwards compability with the Gen 1 and 2 devices should give us pause. I am skeptical that WP8 will support Gen 1 devices at all (I own a Gen 1 Focus), and while I hope that WP8 runs well on Gen 2 devices I won't be at all surprised if it doesn't.

    I also wouldn't be surprised if WP8 actually ships as two versions, a legacy version for WP7 devices that runs the old WM6.5 kernel but has the new UI and WP7.5 API with parts of WinRT, while the Apollo devices run the new WoA kernel and the full software stack (WP7.5 API + WinRT API) minus the special Office-only desktop mode.

    While I don't doubt that this could be the case that video of them running W8 on an Intel Atom just to make a point gives me a bit of hope. Supposedly its x86 and arm in one so who knows what they have done exactly.
    03-23-2012 10:08 AM
  10. mparker's Avatar
    The main thing I'm hopeful about is that among the Gen 2 devices the Lumia 900 will be the one specifically designed for upgradability to Apollo. By late last year the WP8 code would have been getting feature complete and they would have had a pretty solid idea of what sort of hardware would be needed to run WP8 pretty well. Because it's the big "hero" device for WP7.5, and because of Nokia's relationship with Microsoft, at this point in time it has probably been a test mule for Apollo for several months now. I'm really looking forward to a tear-down to see how much RAM is really on it. Not how much WP7 says it has (because the 512MB that it sees may be a limitation of the kernel) but how much RAM is actually present. If it ships with 1GB even though WP7 can't use more than 512MB then that would be a pretty good hint that the current gen devices that only have 512MB may be gasping a bit with WP8. But if it only ships with 512MB on board then that's a very encouraging sign for the Gen1/2 devices.
    03-23-2012 10:26 AM
  11. XboxOmac's Avatar
    Apollo should arrive to all current gen devices. Fragmentation will be caused, which is what Steven Elop (Nokia) and Steve Ballmer (Microsoft) said they would go out of their way to prevent. Mango apps will work on Apollo, so no, they aren't transitioning to a new OS. WP8 = WP7 with more features. Update just like NoDo to Mango. So why do people worry over Mango to Apollo? Change of whole number? Really? Sorry, they aren't going over Windows Mobile's graveyard.

    iOS 5 = iOS 4 with more features = iOS 3 with more features.
    Same with Android.

    They won't be going a different route. That was in the past..


    There is no official source to they will be upgradable/not upgradable by Microsoft or anyone else. Nobody whatsoever. But I'm not saying they won't be upgradable. The few keypoints below should reflect that all current Windows Phones will be upgradable.

    Apollo For All Windows Phones

    Besides, Microsoft and Nokia are trying to have Windows Phone to not carry fragmentation.

    Stephen Elop wants no Windows Phone fragmentation.


    If the 1st and 2nd gen devices don't receive the Apollo update, then fragmentation will be caused. They will definitely not go down this road.

    And finally, Mango apps will run on Apollo.

    Windows Phone Tango1, Tango 2 and Apollo spotted in a job listing, voice integration for email coming in Apollo

    Hopefully, this clears a few minds. Don't fear 2nd gen devices!
    Last edited by XboxOmac; 03-23-2012 at 02:23 PM.
    03-23-2012 01:22 PM
  12. mparker's Avatar
    There is no official source to they will be upgradable/not upgradable by Microsoft or anyone else.
    This is the key sentence in your post.

    Fragmentation is unavoidable as a platform matures. Android is frequently bashed for its fragmentation problem, but really the problem with Android isn't that there are multiple versions out there, or older handsets that can't be upgraded to the newer OS's. The reason fragmentation is such a problem on Android is that there are Android phones currently being sold with versions that were obsolete three years ago. The current version of Android is 4.0.2. There are phones being sold today with version 1.7!!!!!

    If *none* of the Gen 1 are upgradable to Apollo then WP still won't have the level of fragmentation problem that Android has. Even if Microsoft dual-tracks WP into WP7/Tango for the budget asian market and WP8/Apollo for the high-end market then WP still won't have the fragmentation problem that Android has.
    Last edited by mparker; 03-23-2012 at 01:45 PM.
    03-23-2012 01:39 PM
  13. XboxOmac's Avatar
    I don't see why they would plan to throw WP7 away. They already carry little market share. Starting a new OS is just starting fresh. I know for sure they won't go down Windows Mobile's graveyard again.

    That quote wasn't trying to point to yes or no. I was stating that there isn't an official source, but that there are still fingers pointing giving hints that current Gen phones will be upgradable.

    People are freaking out only from the transition of the number. 7 to 8. -.-

    Fixed post.


    Posted from my Samsung Focus Windows Phone.
    Last edited by XboxOmac; 03-23-2012 at 02:27 PM.
    03-23-2012 02:17 PM
  14. canesfan625's Avatar
    we already have a thread for this, mango apps running on apollo means nothing for updates to 1st gen.
    03-23-2012 03:26 PM
  15. Seketh's Avatar
    ... the problem with Android isn't that there are multiple versions out there, or older handsets that can't be upgraded to the newer OS's.
    Uh, that's exactly the problem with Android fragmentation, not the fact that older sets are coming out with old versions. If those older handsets were simply updated to the latest version, even with some limitations, there wouldn't be such severe fragmentation.

    It's still early to see how the inevitable fragmentation of Windows Phone will develop, but Microsoft is betting on an update system similar to iPhone, but without compromising the performance of older headsets ;)

    And that fragmentation will never be anything even remotely similar to Android.
    03-23-2012 04:16 PM
  16. canesfan625's Avatar
    or older handsets that can't be upgraded to the newer OS's.
    This is almost irrelevant. You could have a cell phone with 8 cores and 20 gigs of ram and it still wouldn't matter. Its a proven fact that vendors will lie to your e-face about Android updates *cough* Samsung *cough* and tell you that they cant update it because of "hardware requirements"
    03-23-2012 04:32 PM
  17. selfcreation's Avatar
    fragmentation = 100% to do with the core coding of the OS.

    OEM/RTM add some special code that they dont require to share(like SENS on htc , or motoblure on Motorola's ( and they dint ) so when goggle comes out with a new update
    its not compatible with does features hence causing fragmentation.

    2 types of open source regulated by Google: Google codes need to be shared. OEM/RTM codes do not! that's the problem. ( cant give away all their secrets ;) )

    android central have a VERY nice article about this! for does of you that are interested you should look it up, it explains ALLOT!

    also OEM/RTM have ZERO access to core programing on WP ( except for NOKIA , but they said they wouldn't play with it )

    here is the open source thing: http://www.androidcentral.com/what-o...urce-android-z
    Last edited by Se1fcr3ation; 03-23-2012 at 04:48 PM.
    03-23-2012 04:40 PM
  18. mparker's Avatar
    Uh, that's exactly the problem with Android fragmentation, not the fact that older sets are coming out with old versions. If those older handsets were simply updated to the latest version, even with some limitations, there wouldn't be such severe fragmentation.
    Nope, it is not really a problem for a developer if there are multiple versions of an OS out there, as long as he can be assured that there are a limited number of them, and those older versions will disappear over some reasonable time frame. This can't happen if manufacturers and carriers keep selling obsolete versions to new customers.

    Nobody ever whines about Windows being fragmented, at least not since XP replaced Windows ME. Even though there are lots of XP systems out there, there aren't any new XP systems being sold anymore, so nowadays it's possible for a developer to simply ignore the existence of XP and target the Vista APIs.

    Android is in the situation that Windows would be in if Dell and Gateway were still selling Windows 95 systems. Except worse, because the handset manufacturers and carriers insist on doing their own versions of the OS with their own bugs and compatibility issues.

    Hypothetically, if no Android handset were ever upgraded, but each new handset sold came with the latest version of Android, then although there would be fragmentation it would be very managable; by now nearly all handsets still under contract would be running Gingerbread, and new development projects could target Ice Cream Sandwich without a second's hesitation.

    If Apollo doesn't come to the older WP7 devices then yes there will be fragmentation. But that fragmentation will exist *anyway*, unless you believe that WP8 will be coming to these little 256MB Tango devices as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens to Tango after WP8 comes out. I suspect we're heading to a fragmented WP world whether we like it or not.
    Last edited by mparker; 03-23-2012 at 04:48 PM.
    03-23-2012 04:40 PM
  19. canesfan625's Avatar
    Nope, it is not really a problem for a developer if there are multiple versions of an OS out there, as long as he can be assured that there are a limited number of them, and those older versions will disappear over some reasonable time frame. This can't happen if manufacturers and carriers keep selling obsolete versions to new customers.

    Nobody ever whines about Windows being fragmented, at least not since XP replaced Windows ME. Even though there are lots of XP systems out there, there aren't any new XP systems being sold anymore, so nowadays it's possible for a developer to simply ignore the existence of XP and target the Vista APIs.

    Android is in the situation that Windows would be in if Dell and Gateway were still selling Windows 95 systems. Except worse, because the handset manufacturers and carriers insist on doing their own versions of the OS with their own bugs and compatibility issues.

    Hypothetically, if no Android handset were ever upgraded, but each new handset sold came with the latest version of Android, then although there would be fragmentation it would be very managable; by now nearly all handsets still under contract would be running Gingerbread, and new development projects could target Ice Cream Sandwich without a second's hesitation.

    If Apollo doesn't come to the older WP7 devices then yes there will be fragmentation. But that fragmentation will exist *anyway*, unless you believe that WP8 will be coming to these little 256MB Tango devices as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens to Tango after WP8 comes out. I suspect we're heading to a fragmented WP world whether we like it or not.
    Thats the problem though. We cant just download .net or whatever we are missing from one of the like 8 levels of APIs for Android. Developer interest is dropping because of the problem too. Like 3 out of 5 devices still use a version from 2010. I guess the fear is due to the speed though.. Look how many API levels there are since 2008 and the updates are extremely lacking. Imagine being an android dev right now. You have access to the glory of ICS but you are still developing for froyo and gingerbread
    Last edited by Canesfan625; 03-23-2012 at 05:44 PM.
    03-23-2012 05:29 PM
  20. mparker's Avatar
    Thats the problem though. We cant just download .net or whatever we are missing from one of the like 8 levels of APIs for Android. Developer interest is dropping because of the problem too. Like 3 out of 5 devices still use a version from 2010. I guess the fear is due to the speed though.. Look how many API levels there are since 2008 and the updates are extremely lacking. Imagine being an android dev right now. You have access to the glory of ICS but you are still developing for froyo and gingerbread
    But that's because manufacturers and carriers are still selling eclair, froyo, and gingerbread handsets even today. If they stopped selling handsets with obsolete versions of the OS, and stopped customizing the OS the way they do, then the fragmentation problem would be a non-issue, even if handsets weren't upgraded, because hardware obsolescence would solve that problem over the course of a year or two.

    Past a certain point it's unrealistic to expect old handsets to be upgradable to the new OS. In order to make this happen you'd have to gimp the new OS and slow down advancement, giving your competitors a chance to leapfrog you. The question is where that point occurs. The problem is that the faster you're trying to move, the more of a strain it is to maintain backward compatibility. Apple stranded millions of their customers when they switched to OSX, and stranded millions more when they switched to X86, and millions more when they dropped Carbon and Rosetta. But brutally sacrificing upgradability was important in allowing OSX to advance as quickly as it did.

    When Microsoft needed to move aggressively with WP7 they completely abandoned compatibility with the Windows Mobile devices. They need to move aggressively with Win8/WP8. If this means that they have to leave those million Foci and Quanta on WP7.5 then they may well do it, because the alternative (an uncompetitive WP8) is unacceptably risky.
    XboxOmac likes this.
    03-23-2012 06:09 PM
  21. canesfan625's Avatar
    But that's because manufacturers and carriers are still selling eclair, froyo, and gingerbread handsets even today. If they stopped selling handsets with obsolete versions of the OS, and stopped customizing the OS the way they do, then the fragmentation problem would be a non-issue, even if handsets weren't upgraded, because hardware obsolescence would solve that problem over the course of a year or two.

    Past a certain point it's unrealistic to expect old handsets to be upgradable to the new OS. In order to make this happen you'd have to gimp the new OS and slow down advancement, giving your competitors a chance to leapfrog you. The question is where that point occurs. The problem is that the faster you're trying to move, the more of a strain it is to maintain backward compatibility. Apple stranded millions of their customers when they switched to OSX, and stranded millions more when they switched to X86, and millions more when they dropped Carbon and Rosetta. But brutally sacrificing upgradability was important in allowing OSX to advance as quickly as it did.

    When Microsoft needed to move aggressively with WP7 they completely abandoned compatibility with the Windows Mobile devices. They need to move aggressively with Win8/WP8. If this means that they have to leave those million Foci and Quanta on WP7.5 then they may well do it, because the alternative (an uncompetitive WP8) is unacceptably risky.
    I don't expect them to update it forever, obviously, but unlike Android I expect the phone to be supported through its life. Not six months and kicked out the door. For anyone that wants to see the problem in its glory go take a looky at the Galaxy S. Not getting ICS because of "hardware limitations" they say. What limitations would that be? Pretty much has the same hardware as the Galaxy Nexus.
    03-23-2012 06:16 PM
  22. selfcreation's Avatar
    Nothing is certain in life except death and taxes.

    lol , lets just hope we all get what we want.
    03-23-2012 06:46 PM
  23. Seketh's Avatar
    Nope, it is not really a problem for a developer if there are multiple versions of an OS out there, as long as he can be assured that there are a limited number of them, and those older versions will disappear over some reasonable time frame. This can't happen if manufacturers and carriers keep selling obsolete versions to new customers.

    Nobody ever whines about Windows being fragmented, at least not since XP replaced Windows ME. Even though there are lots of XP systems out there, there aren't any new XP systems being sold anymore, so nowadays it's possible for a developer to simply ignore the existence of XP and target the Vista APIs.

    Android is in the situation that Windows would be in if Dell and Gateway were still selling Windows 95 systems. Except worse, because the handset manufacturers and carriers insist on doing their own versions of the OS with their own bugs and compatibility issues.

    Hypothetically, if no Android handset were ever upgraded, but each new handset sold came with the latest version of Android, then although there would be fragmentation it would be very managable; by now nearly all handsets still under contract would be running Gingerbread, and new development projects could target Ice Cream Sandwich without a second's hesitation.

    If Apollo doesn't come to the older WP7 devices then yes there will be fragmentation. But that fragmentation will exist *anyway*, unless you believe that WP8 will be coming to these little 256MB Tango devices as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens to Tango after WP8 comes out. I suspect we're heading to a fragmented WP world whether we like it or not.
    Here's where your logic fails: You can still run an XP (heck, even a Windows 95) application in Windows 8. Sure, you *might* have to use compatibility mode, but it works!

    Apollo is coming to both 1G devices and Tango devices. Apollo in Tango devices will simply have limitations, probably similar to the ones that already exist, there's no reason why they won't also be updated to Apollo.

    When Microsoft needed to move aggressively with WP7 they completely abandoned compatibility with the Windows Mobile devices. They need to move aggressively with Win8/WP8. If this means that they have to leave those million Foci and Quanta on WP7.5 then they may well do it, because the alternative (an uncompetitive WP8) is unacceptably risky.
    No, the risky move would be to not update WP7 devices to WP8.

    Can you imagine the community rage and press nightmare if the Lumia 900, the Nokia flagship device, didn't get the update to Windows Phone 8? It would mean the death of WP right there.

    And if the Lumia 900 gets Apollo, there's absolutely no reason why other WP won't get it, after all, it's Microsoft pushing the updates, not the manufacturers, like in Android.
    03-23-2012 06:48 PM
  24. mparker's Avatar
    I don't expect them to update it forever, obviously, but unlike Android I expect the phone to be supported through its life. Not six months and kicked out the door.
    By the time WP8 ships the Gen 1 handsets will be 2 years old, and the early adopters like myself will be at the end of our contracts and ready for renewal and a shiny new Apollo handset. Sounds like a good time to leave those Gen 1 machines behind. Of the Gen 2 handsets the Lumia 900 is the one I most expect to see upgraded, simply because it's the last of them and the most likely to have taken Apollo's requirements into account.


    For anyone that wants to see the problem in its glory go take a looky at the Galaxy S. Not getting ICS because of "hardware limitations" they say. What limitations would that be? Pretty much has the same hardware as the Galaxy Nexus.
    Actually it's the Galaxy S2 that is similar to the Galaxy Nexus. ICS (Android 4.0) was developed on the Galaxy Nexus, and the Galaxy S2 *is* getting ICS (Samsung Outs Galaxy S II ICS Guide For Customers).

    The Galaxy S that you mentioned is similar to the Nexus S, which was the developer machine for the previous phone version of Android (Gingerbread/Android 2.3). The Nexus S is getting ICS but Samsung has announced that the Galaxy S will not be getting it. But this is a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison - Galaxy S isn't really running the same operating system as the Nexus S; it's running Samsung TouchWiz, which while based on Android is heavily enhanced and needs much more resources than the version of Android it's based on. Bone stock ICS will run on the Nexus S, but only just. The combination of TouchWiz version + ICS is simply too much for that hardware.

    Interestingly, the phone that was used for Froyo (Android 2.2) development, the Nexus One, will not be getting ICS from Google or anybody else. It got one major update a year after its release (from 2.2 to 2.3), then was left behind the next year when 4.0 came out. This is roughly what I expect from WP7 - the original windows phones shipped with 7.0, got 7.5 a year later, and a year after that are abandoned by WP8. Maybe Microsoft will do better, maybe the Gen 1 devices will run WP8. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if they don't, and even less surprised if AT&T blocks any WP8 update that Microsoft does release for those old handsets, because AT&T wants those 2-yr upgrades.
    03-23-2012 06:52 PM
  25. mparker's Avatar
    Here's where your logic fails: You can still run an XP (heck, even a Windows 95) application in Windows 8. Sure, you *might* have to use compatibility mode, but it works!
    How is that a logic fail? I've said nothing about WP7 apps not running in WP8; I'm talking about old WP7 hardware running WP8. Try running Windows 8 on an 64MB Pentium 3 with a 20GB hard drive, and see how far you get.


    Can you imagine the community rage and press nightmare if the Lumia 900, the Nokia flagship device, didn't get the update to Windows Phone 8? It would mean the death of WP right there.
    Of all the WP7.x handsets, the Lumia 900 is the one I most expect to see Apollo in something resembling its full glory. But that's because WP8 was farther along in while the 900 was being developed, and because Nokia has a closer relationship with Microsoft than HTC or Samsung. They should have known exactly what would be needed for Apollo while they were developing the 900. If it can't run WP8 and run it well then people have a reason to scream bloody murder.

    And if the Lumia 900 gets Apollo, there's absolutely no reason why other WP won't get it, after all, it's Microsoft pushing the updates, not the manufacturers, like in Android.
    Yeah? Why does my Focus still have the disappearing keyboard problem then? If AT&T decides they'd rather not approve WP8 for those gen 1 devices, that they'd rather sell those customers a new 2-yr contract and a shiny new Lumia 1000 or Galaxy Focus or whatever, then those Gen 1 machines will never run WP8. And if AT&T/Verizon/Sprint have already told Microsoft that they will not be upgrading those old handsets then why would Microsoft even bother working on it? If AT&T won't push out the important bug fixes that Microsoft has released these last 6 months, why do you think they'd push out something as major and as revenue-reducing as WP8.

    You claim that the carriers are "contractually obligated to release major updates". I'll believe that when I see the contracts. There's always escape clauses and time limits and weasel words.
    Last edited by mparker; 03-23-2012 at 07:18 PM.
    03-23-2012 07:01 PM
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