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04-13-2012 05:24 AM
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  1. Welve's Avatar
    Let me reinterpret what you just said: Google built a better product, for free, and WP7 can't compete.
    I like how the functionality is there, but you personally don't like it so it can't compete
    04-10-2012 03:08 PM
  2. tk-093's Avatar
    Let me first say that I'm a WP7 fanboy. I'm the mobile admin where I work and unfortunatly I don't use WP7 yet because we use Good Mobile Messaging and their client is out yet. We also a Verizon shop and even though I am switching between the Galaxy Nexus and the iPhone 4s right now, I'm still going to rock the Trophy when Good has a client. I'm pretty jacked to put my Zune Pass to work other then on my wife's Trophy.. but I'm a big fan.

    Anyway, I think the way MS did the Bing Maps Nav is pretty craptastic and it was a disapointment. I can only assume they made a deal with Nokia not to do a real turn by turn so Nokia could promote Drive for a little while. I see no other reason to come up with something that is 90% there. It's weird. Because I have a few mobile lines I just use my battery sucking Nexus as my Nav when I'm driving, but I'm not normal.. the average person just has a single device. I expect we will see the Bing version go full blown Turn by Turn at some point.
    04-10-2012 04:35 PM
  3. LarryPGH's Avatar
    I'm on day two of my windows phone experience, and while I'm not willing to conclude "junk", the navigation experience IS disappointing.

    The need to tap on the phone id a deal breaker, frankly. In Pennsylvania, it's now illegal to interact with your phone while in motion. In other words, it'd be illegal to use WP navigation.

    someone mentioned that he likes tapping at each turn. I found a flaw there, though. When I made a wrong turn, Nav helpfully told me that id done something unexpected. Of course, it wanted me to tap in order to get modified directions. Pardon? What good is it if my Nav program presumes I don't want to recover an error that I've made? Ok -- so, we're stuck with the modal "tap interaction" model. However, when I tapped... I got nothing. No response, nothing. If the answer was "sorry, you're screwed", then it should tell me that, not leave me wondering whether the program had gone unresponsive (it hadn't)! Even if the response was "exit and turn around", that'd be something.

    I decided to re-enter my destination, in the hopes it'd crank up a new set of directions. No luck... Voice entry failed four or five time in a row, until I gave up (after all, how many times can you say "dogfish head alehouse" and get a "sorry, I didn't get that" reply before you give up?

    on the other hand, I DID like the fact that Bing pointed out a landmark at one of my turns. It might have been helpful had it mentioned the side of the road it was on (I was looking to make a left, and the landmark was on my right. Ouch.)

    Some minor quibbles: I had to configure the app to rotate the map as i turned (does anyone find it intuitive to
    04-10-2012 05:44 PM
  4. LarryPGH's Avatar
    (sorry.. Keyboard cut out on me).

    Anyway, it's intuitive for some folks to look at a map upside down? Also, once I chose to auto-rotate the map, I was unable to choose to auto-rotate the map labels. Why should I look at upside-down names when I'm going south?

    The idea that I should choose to pay for maps, when a competing platform offers the service for free, service is ludicrous. This feature is now a cost of doing business; MS needs to buck up, and the "copyright" excuse should only be answered, "well, then license it!" When a mobile OS provider finds itself trying to gain a foothold in the market, it MUST compete in features, unless it's attempting to spin itself as a budget, feature-poor alternative.

    Perhaps my lack of experience with WP is hamstringing me; are there solutions for any of the issues I've raised?

    Short of solutions, I'm leaning toward a conclusion of "fail" wrt WP Nav...
    04-10-2012 05:57 PM
  5. N8ter's Avatar
    So wait, you can't tap the screen while driving? Why is that an issue? I actually like it better, I can't tell you how often I missed turns with Android because it always seemed to wait until the last minute to tell me to turn. With the tap for directions I can tap early and know when I need to turn.

    To each his own i guess, but you seem to be whining a lot about a very minor feature and this is coming from someone who is directionally challenged and travels fairly often...

    And paid outlook sync, what are you talking about? Well, I know you are talking about premium cloud service and Office 365, but Outlook calendar and contacts sync is free, as well as adding an outlook email...

    Sync your Outlook contacts to Windows Phone
    The problem is that manipulating your phone can get you pulled over JUST for doing that (don't need a primary offense to get you with it) while driving. The only thing you can do is operate with a handsfree device or you can get pulled over and fined.

    It's very distracting. Some of us like to mount our devices in our vehicles and at 5'4" I don't have the arms of Lurch.

    On top of that, even if you get a separate GPS app they work monumentally worse than on Android/iOS which allow background GPS services to function pretty much flawlessly so it's still crippled by comparison even if you buy the app.

    As far as your Outlook solution, the connector works but it's a huge PITA because you basically have to either keep everything in the cloud and use only that, or duplicate everything dragging and dropping (i.e. copying) from the Main Outlook Data to the Windows Live Folders. If you just stick with Windows Live you're better off just using Windows Live Mail for that since it will be less of a pain and you can be sure all the fields match when you create contacts. That app is better built for interoping with Windows Live than Outlook (which is built for Exchange).

    iOS and Android devices can Sync Directly to Outlook so no need to duplicate data/copy it around and whatnot. You just sync your device and it will pull it over - even your POP/IMAP mail account settings (except passwords) in some cases.

    When you move 1300 miles across the country to a new (and big city) you don't have to be directionally challenged to get loss and having to tap the screen when you're navigating places that unfamiliar is a deal breaker. That type of distraction can cause accidents. Everyone told Microsoft this leading up to Mango release but they still put it out there like that even though earlier Betas IIRC allowed hands-free TBT Nav.
    Last edited by N8ter; 04-10-2012 at 06:07 PM.
    04-10-2012 05:59 PM
  6. N8ter's Avatar
    The ecosystem gives you freedom to buy an app you want for navigation.
    And what ecosystem doesn't?

    Even Blackberries have TBT Navigation now... Directly from RIM and they didn't seem to have any huge patent issues with getting it there, nor do Google, MapQuest, any of those 3rd party apps that do it, or Microsoft in the Windows Mobile version of Bing Maps. There are probably close to 10 companies developing TBT Nav apps for mobiles these days, none of them as big as Microsoft and none of them have had to cripple their products in this way because of patent or licensing issues...

    Sorry, I'm having issues taking the patent excuse seriously. They can spend 500M on an ad campaign but they can't license the patents to not make the built in navigation application not emabrass the platform?

    Color me skeptical.
    04-10-2012 06:12 PM
  7. mz89's Avatar
    So, I completely skimmed to the bottom and I'm just going to give my own reply. I have a 1st Gen HTC phone.

    Bing maps - when you navigate, it gives you the route and the directions, but you have to tap on the directions list and then it speaks the current direction out loud. It does have a "toot toot" sound when you reach a marker, like taking an exit or turning right/left.

    HTC Locations - they give you free offline maps (navigation included) and you can download as many regions as you like. You also get voice guidance, but only free for 30 days and this is what it seems to me. I have yet to finish 30 days, Im half way through. After that, there is a cost to get the phone to automatically go "toot toot hey you turn left in 200 meters" ... but its reasonable-ish
    04-10-2012 06:22 PM
  8. tekhna's Avatar
    So, I completely skimmed to the bottom and I'm just going to give my own reply. I have a 1st Gen HTC phone.

    Bing maps - when you navigate, it gives you the route and the directions, but you have to tap on the directions list and then it speaks the current direction out loud. It does have a "toot toot" sound when you reach a marker, like taking an exit or turning right/left.

    HTC Locations - they give you free offline maps (navigation included) and you can download as many regions as you like. You also get voice guidance, but only free for 30 days and this is what it seems to me. I have yet to finish 30 days, Im half way through. After that, there is a cost to get the phone to automatically go "toot toot hey you turn left in 200 meters" ... but its reasonable-ish
    Right, but if you've used Google's navigation software (especially the ICS version) you'd know how grossly inadequate that is, and as pointed out above, illegal in some states.
    04-10-2012 06:40 PM
  9. Welve's Avatar
    I'm on day two of my windows phone experience, and while I'm not willing to conclude "junk", the navigation experience IS disappointing.

    The need to tap on the phone id a deal breaker, frankly. In Pennsylvania, it's now illegal to interact with your phone while in motion. In other words, it'd be illegal to use WP navigation.

    someone mentioned that he likes tapping at each turn. I found a flaw there, though. When I made a wrong turn, Nav helpfully told me that id done something unexpected. Of course, it wanted me to tap in order to get modified directions. Pardon? What good is it if my Nav program presumes I don't want to recover an error that I've made? Ok -- so, we're stuck with the modal "tap interaction" model. However, when I tapped... I got nothing. No response, nothing. If the answer was "sorry, you're screwed", then it should tell me that, not leave me wondering whether the program had gone unresponsive (it hadn't)! Even if the response was "exit and turn around", that'd be something.

    I decided to re-enter my destination, in the hopes it'd crank up a new set of directions. No luck... Voice entry failed four or five time in a row, until I gave up (after all, how many times can you say "dogfish head alehouse" and get a "sorry, I didn't get that" reply before you give up?

    on the other hand, I DID like the fact that Bing pointed out a landmark at one of my turns. It might have been helpful had it mentioned the side of the road it was on (I was looking to make a left, and the landmark was on my right. Ouch.)

    Some minor quibbles: I had to configure the app to rotate the map as i turned (does anyone find it intuitive to
    That was me and I actually do, my car has Bluetooth streaming audio, so I leave the phone in my cupholder and tap the screen "turn right in 1.5 miles"...simple as that. After my turn it makes the confirmed sound and I tap it again and it tells me my next turn. On my Galaxy S it was also turn right in 200 yards, but with no update and I have a hard time looking at a GPS. I prefer to tap to hear directions updated multiple times if I am unfamiliar with an area and I can do that with the tap function.

    I don't need to see a screen, to me that is far more distracting than a simple tap which is why I think this is silly.
    04-10-2012 06:52 PM
  10. HeyCori's Avatar
    That was me and I actually do, my car has Bluetooth streaming audio, so I leave the phone in my cupholder and tap the screen "turn right in 1.5 miles"...simple as that. After my turn it makes the confirmed sound and I tap it again and it tells me my next turn. On my Galaxy S it was also turn right in 200 yards, but with no update and I have a hard time looking at a GPS. I prefer to tap to hear directions updated multiple times if I am unfamiliar with an area and I can do that with the tap function.

    I don't need to see a screen, to me that is far more distracting than a simple tap which is why I think this is silly.
    I'm not trying to dismiss the claims of anyone else in this thread but I will agree that listening to a voice is much less distracting than trying to focus on a screen. I like it on my regular GPS system as well. It was awesome when that functionality came in Mango but tapping the screen can be annoying, especially if you're in an area where you have to take several turns in a short time frame. However, now I have Navigon and can enjoy the best of both worlds.
    04-10-2012 07:00 PM
  11. john_allen_1911's Avatar
    you are pretty much a weasel if you come in here using probing questions and the good will of the forum to then reach a conclusion that the phone is junk just because you -may- have to pony up some money for an app.....never mind the fact it is the BEST RATED phone on Verizon Wireless as well as tying the iPhone for the PC Mag Reader's Choice award. That just makes you an even bigger d-bag.
    Highest rated phone on Verizon? You mean the 6 reviews for the pre-owned refurb? Have a look at the 978 reviews for the actual phone. You will find it is rated the same as iPhone, Rezound, Rhyme, Droid 4, and Lucid - all 4.5 stars. The hardware is fine. It is the lack of included apps.

    Why would I pay for nav? It makes me a "d-bag" to think, "Hey, I have some friends with Windows phones and they have free voice nav (older version of WP). I have a WP with Bing Maps, I guess I have voice nav, too." MS upgraded my phone to tap-to-turn? Great upgrade.

    I can buy a dedicated nav device for about $80. On an Android phone I had free voice nav and I could download not only road maps but topo maps for free and it all worked with the GPS in the unit, for free. I was happy to give up the downloaded maps, the topo maps, but the voice nav is with tapping is silly.

    The name calling is unnecessary. If you have an argument to make make it. Tell me why I should I want to pay for services I was getting for free? On a 3 year old Droid A855, BTW.
    04-10-2012 07:01 PM
  12. john_allen_1911's Avatar
    Windows Phone is not for everybody. The platform is far from junk but if paying for software is that much of an issue no problem, use what works for you. For some of us, paying for good software is not as repulsive as is it to others.
    What software are you paying for that is so good? I would like to hear about it so I can know all the great things about my new phone.

    I wanted to buy Skype - nope. Log Me In would be nice - nope. Dropbox out yet? The mobile site is pretty friendly but not a dedicated app.

    So please list the ten best paid apps you have (no need to include Angry Birds unless you can tell me how to install Seasons and Rio). I will seriously consider getting them. I want to like this phone; the rest of my devices all run on MS, why not my phone?
    04-10-2012 07:17 PM
  13. sconrad308's Avatar
    WOW! I'm shocked at how much you dislike your phone. Good luck to you with your android. I had one and prefer my WP so much more. Even the latest and greatest androids that my friends have aren't as nice and my friends tell me that all the time. But they are on US Cellular and don't have a lot of options for WP devices.
    My navigation works great. My bing maps are a lot better than google maps were. I even prefer them on my browser.
    04-10-2012 07:45 PM
  14. john_allen_1911's Avatar
    So wait, you can't tap the screen while driving? Why is that an issue? I actually like it better, I can't tell you how often I missed turns with Android because it always seemed to wait until the last minute to tell me to turn. With the tap for directions I can tap early and know when I need to turn.

    To each his own i guess, but you seem to be whining a lot about a very minor feature and this is coming from someone who is directionally challenged and travels fairly often...

    And paid outlook sync, what are you talking about? Well, I know you are talking about premium cloud service and Office 365, but Outlook calendar and contacts sync is free, as well as adding an outlook email...

    Sync your Outlook contacts to Windows Phone
    On the voice nav, others have beat me to it but it is pretty weak. If tap-by-turn is so great then why didn't Garmin, TomTom, or Magellan come out with it yet? Because they didn't have because of a patent issue. Also, I can see your side of things, but again, if tapping is great make it an option so you can have it and I can turn it off.

    But let's dig into Bing Maps with the nav on and running. Over half the screen has the directions in text on it. It is portrait only so I cannot place in my universal phone holder on landscape and see all 3.8" inches of the screen displaying a map - like a GPS unit for example. And as someone mentioned it is not legal to do stuff with my phone while I am driving.

    As for your Outlook sync comments allow me to share another link with you:

    Microsoft Exchange Online Pricing

    For true and complete sync between my phone and my desktops I need Exchange and that costs money (I was told this by a friend who works for MS and sets up Exchange accounts for big companies. He was very honest about the fact that this is one of MS's big products and it works very nicely but it costs money). I knew this was true before I got the phone so I have no complaints there. But using Live is a joke (if I accidentally send a reply email to work from live.com it is marked as spam). I can only sync the Live calendar to my desktop's Live calendar - so I have two calendars one the default Outlook profile and one for the live.com profile and I can find no way to unite them. If I use Outlook to accept an invite I need to copy it to the Live calendar manually - because the Live calendar is not allowed to be the default calendar on Outlook desktop (as far as I can figure out). If I use Windows Live Mail to accept an Outlook invite - oh they are not compatible so I can't.

    So this leaves with the same sync as I had before. Using all MS products I am no better off than I was before. I had hoped for some improvement through matching it all up. So my complaint is about the fact that there is no improvement by switching to all MS products. I would have been happy with minimal improvement or some other options. I could have bought Exchange before and used it on an iPhone or Android with the same results as buying it now on a WP.
    04-10-2012 07:46 PM
  15. john_allen_1911's Avatar
    WOW! I'm shocked at how much you dislike your phone. Good luck to you with your android. I had one and prefer my WP so much more. Even the latest and greatest androids that my friends have aren't as nice and my friends tell me that all the time. But they are on US Cellular and don't have a lot of options for WP devices.
    My navigation works great. My bing maps are a lot better than google maps were. I even prefer them on my browser.
    Are you using Bing Maps for voice TbT nav?

    And you are correct that the selection on Verizon is a serious issue. If V had a Nokia WP it is my understanding that I would have excellent TbT voice nav for free. That would make a big improvement right off the bat.
    04-10-2012 07:49 PM
  16. sconrad308's Avatar
    OK. We get it you are unhappy and are a droid fan. Go back to Android and be happy. No reason to keep posting on here. Good luck to you. Personally not the choice I would make but it is yours be happy. Quit *****ing and just be happy. Good bye Sir.
    04-10-2012 07:49 PM
  17. sconrad308's Avatar
    Are you using Bing Maps for voice TbT nav?

    And you are correct that the selection on Verizon is a serious issue. If V had a Nokia WP it is my understanding that I would have excellent TbT voice nav for free. That would make a big improvement right off the bat.
    I do use Bing Maps for my TbT. I don't have a problem with it. I will probably be getting Garmin just because I love their products. But I do like Bing Maps. The accuracy and not having to constantly look at the screen are great. As for touching the screen I don't have a problem with that. In fact I used it today and with my new bluetooth headset it worked great. I did it all my voice commands. Far superior to my Android. IMO.
    04-10-2012 07:56 PM
  18. tekhna's Avatar
    OK. We get it you are unhappy and are a droid fan. Go back to Android and be happy. No reason to keep posting on here. Good luck to you. Personally not the choice I would make but it is yours be happy. Quit *****ing and just be happy. Good bye Sir.
    Chill out man. No one here is hating. Don't be such a fanboy that you can't see what IS a deficiency--friendly criticism is not a vice.
    04-10-2012 08:16 PM
  19. john_allen_1911's Avatar
    OK. We get it you are unhappy and are a droid fan. Go back to Android and be happy. No reason to keep posting on here. Good luck to you. Personally not the choice I would make but it is yours be happy. Quit *****ing and just be happy. Good bye Sir.
    It is funny that because I am critical of tap-to-turn I am now a "Droid Fan." I use stuff because it works not because of who makes it.

    Are all the other posters who think MS dropped the ball with tap-to-turn Droid or Apple fans, too?

    If criticism of WP7.5 makes you want me to leave this forum, you are more brand loyal than I ever will be. You said in your other post you are buying a Garmin simply because you "love" Garmin products, so I can only assume you like branding more than I do. I like stuff that works and is loaded with features appropriate for the cash outlay. So far the HTC Trophy has come up short.

    Like I said before, if the Lumia 900 were a Verizon phone I might be having a better experience - or any Nokia phone for that matter.
    04-10-2012 08:18 PM
  20. dogfish54's Avatar
    Right, but if you've used Google's navigation software (especially the ICS version) you'd know how grossly inadequate that is, and as pointed out above, illegal in some states.
    The Google turn-by-turn is technically free, but Google gives it away because they want to know the most they can about you to target ads to you. That's not a problem for most people, for me, I'd rather that my operating system is paid for i.e included with the price of the phone (like Wp7) and not provided free with a hunger for data about me.

    Nokia owns Navteq and provide Nokia Drive for free because they want you to buy the hardware (like Apple). If you don't like Windows phone, you are probably better off buying an iPhone.
    04-10-2012 08:19 PM
  21. john_allen_1911's Avatar
    The Google turn-by-turn is technically free, but Google gives it away because they want to know the most they can about you to target ads to you. That's not a problem for most people, for me, I'd rather that my operating system is paid for i.e included with the price of the phone (like Wp7) and not provided free with a hunger for data about me.

    Nokia owns Navteq and provide Nokia Drive for free because they want you to buy the hardware (like Apple). If you don't like Windows phone, you are probably better off buying an iPhone.
    I gave up on keeping secrets from the "Internet" a long time ago. The fact that companies can require you to hand over passwords to social networking accounts as a condition of hiring means we all live in a fully monitored world - government jobs can have even more invasive hiring requirements.

    I think the WP interface is fine. The email looks nice, the web browser seems fine (minus the lack of Flash, and no I will not let that go), some of the apps are slick. It just seems crazy to be lacking proper voice nav bundled in.

    The only reason I do not have a Lumia 900 is because AT&T's coverage is not as good as Verizon's. AT&T has not rolled out LTE in Seattle, home of MS, and AT&T has the best 4G LTE Windows Phone(s) at this point. That seems weird to me.

    I am surprised how many hits a thread about voice nav has generated.
    04-10-2012 08:39 PM
  22. PG2G's Avatar
    I think the WP interface is fine. The email looks nice, the web browser seems fine (minus the lack of Flash, and no I will not let that go), some of the apps are slick. It just seems crazy to be lacking proper voice nav bundled in.
    Just wanted to point out that, while there are free alternatives in the Marketplace, iOS doesn't include voice nav either. Which means Android is the only major OS that includes proper voice nav bundled in.
    04-10-2012 09:23 PM
  23. sconrad308's Avatar
    I apologize if my comments were deemed rude. I was not meaning it like that. I agree that some criticism is a good thing.
    I do like Garmin products but because it works. I am not a fanboy of anything. I use what I like and what works for me. WP works better for me than any phone I've ever had. Blackberry, Nokia, Iphone, Android. I love my Samsung Flash and WP. By far the best phone and OS I have used plus I only pay $45 a month for everything. But you should go where you are happiest.
    04-10-2012 09:24 PM
  24. LarryPGH's Avatar
    That was me and I actually do, my car has Bluetooth streaming audio, so I leave the phone in my cupholder and tap the screen "turn right in 1.5 miles"...simple as that. After my turn it makes the confirmed sound and I tap it again and it tells me my next turn.
    I hear what you're saying, but I'm wondering -- what benefit is there to the "tap at the tone" functionality? I mean, hearing a voice is good (and other platforms have it, as well), and the tone is nice, but what -- in particular -- is good about the need to touch the screen?

    I don't need to see a screen, to me that is far more distracting than a simple tap which is why I think this is silly.
    You're able to tap the screen without taking your eyes off the road and looking for the screen, then? Not all have that ability, or the particular set-up that allows them to do so. Nevertheless, the reason it's not "silly" is that it's literally illegal for some of us, in our home states.

    That's not an indictment of a platform, of course, but just of a particular software design. Hopefully, it'll be addressed soon...
    04-11-2012 01:34 AM
  25. john_allen_1911's Avatar
    Just wanted to point out that, while there are free alternatives in the Marketplace, iOS doesn't include voice nav either. Which means Android is the only major OS that includes proper voice nav bundled in.
    I get your point about it being bundled together versus a free app, but iOS has free MapQuest TbT voice nav. MapQuest was the dominant map source before Google took over and I still see it linked to pages more often than Bing. It is a decent product - especially for free.
    04-11-2012 02:01 AM
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