04-25-2012 08:46 AM
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  1. mkr10001's Avatar
    Obviously we won't get the same version that is designed for the new hardware. That's a given. But I see no reason we can't be upgraded with new features, possibly an improved interface and whatever else is new that doesn't require a higher resolution and multi core
    04-18-2012 02:31 PM
  2. mparker's Avatar
    But I see no reason we can't be upgraded with new features, possibly an improved interface and whatever else is new that doesn't require a higher resolution and multi core
    Really? I can think of a whole bunch of them, without even trying hard.

    A) The new kernel needs a new bootloader that can't be retrofitted to the old devices.
    B) The new kernel needs new drivers that the manufacturers won't write for the old devices.
    C) The new kernel needs some CPU features that aren't present on the old devices.
    D) The new kernel needs some GPU features that aren't present on the old devices.
    E) The new kernel needs more memory than the old old devices have.
    F) The carriers have already told Microsoft that they won't be pushing out upgrades to old devices.
    G) The manufacturers have already told Microsoft that they won't be working on upgrades to the old devices.
    H) Microsoft doesn't have any spare resources to spend on backwards compatibility - they're all making Apollo as awesome as possible, or working on Win 8 RT, etc.

    Where it makes sense for Microsoft to enhance WP7 is exactly where we've seen them spending their effort this last year - on scaling it down for the lower end of the market where WP8 can't go, in order to take on Android and help Nokia shed their legacy Symbian overhead.
    04-18-2012 02:38 PM
  3. mkr10001's Avatar
    Really? I can think of a whole bunch of them, without even trying hard.

    A) The new kernel needs a new bootloader that can't be retrofitted to the old devices.
    B) The new kernel needs new drivers that the manufacturers won't write for the old devices.
    C) The new kernel needs some CPU features that aren't present on the old devices.
    D) The new kernel needs some GPU features that aren't present on the old devices.
    E) The new kernel needs more memory than the old old devices have.
    F) The carriers have already told Microsoft that they won't be pushing out upgrades to old devices.
    G) The manufacturers have already told Microsoft that they won't be working on upgrades to the old devices.
    H) Microsoft doesn't have any spare resources to spend on backwards compatibility - they're all making Apollo as awesome as possible, or working on Win 8 RT, etc.

    Where it makes sense for Microsoft to enhance WP7 is exactly where we've seen them spending their effort this last year - on scaling it down for the lower end of the market where WP8 can't go, in order to take on Android and help Nokia shed their legacy Symbian overhead.

    The majority of the new features WILL be able to be implemented on the current hardware. I'm not saying all in the same way. That's why I said

    "But I see no reason we can't be upgraded with new features, possibly an improved interface and whatever else is new that doesn't require a higher resolution and multi core"

    Sorry I didn't mention the GPU and bootloader and new drivers and more memory but it was ****ing implied that we should get new features that the phones are capable of running. moron
    04-18-2012 03:26 PM
  4. mparker's Avatar
    Sorry I didn't mention the GPU and bootloader and new drivers and more memory but it was ****ing implied that we should get new features that the phones are capable of running. moron
    Are you seriously suggesting that Microsoft will somehow wave their magic wand and make Win8 work on the current devices without bootloaders and device drivers? Or they will write Apollo for the Windows 8 kernel then write it again for the Win CE kernel? Seriously?

    If the Win8 kernel can't *easily* be backported to the current devices, and the current WinCE device drivers can't *easily* be made to work with the Win8 kernel, then the current devices are unlikely to see anything more than a succession of Tangos. Partly because that time could be more productively spent improving Apollo, partly because the more difficult it is the less likely it is to have manufacturer and carrier support, and partly because the greater the risk of impacting reliability and performance.

    Or maybe you're suggesting that Microsoft will make Tango2 (or 3 or whatever) look and feel more like Apollo, with some of the new features. You may well be right there, but it is specious to claim that this counts as WP7 devices "getting Apollo".
    04-18-2012 03:45 PM
  5. mkr10001's Avatar
    Are you seriously suggesting that Microsoft will somehow wave their magic wand and make Win8 work on the current devices without bootloaders and device drivers? Or they will write Apollo for the Windows 8 kernel then write it again for the Win CE kernel? Seriously?

    If the Win8 kernel can't *easily* be backported to the current devices, and the current WinCE device drivers can't *easily* be made to work with the Win8 kernel, then the current devices are unlikely to see anything more than a succession of Tangos. Partly because that time could be more productively spent improving Apollo, partly because the more difficult it is the less likely it is to have manufacturer and carrier support, and partly because the greater the risk of impacting reliability and performance.
    I never said we will get apollo ( I don't think, if i did , aplogies). But they aren't going to just stop updating mango phones. They WILL give us some kind of update that will update the phones. Not saying rewrite the whole OS for older phones but whatever new features that apollo has, e.g. skype integrated into the people hub....no reason for us not to get that. Maybe an updated people hub? Better messaging app? Maybe different coloured live tiles. no reason to not get anything like that.

    Do you REALLY think after Nokia and Microsoft have just gotten into bed together that nokia would let Microsoft just completely forget about the lumia 800, 900 and 710 a year later?!
    Last edited by mkr10001; 04-19-2012 at 02:19 PM.
    soulzero likes this.
    04-18-2012 03:51 PM
  6. mparker's Avatar
    It sounds like we're actually in agreement here. I think that WP7 will continue on as an independent product - we've seen the future of WP7 and that future is called Tango, and pushing downmarket to take on the Android budget phones and eventually replace Symbian. It will get new and exciting features, but it will have only a historical relationship with the phone OS that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with Microsoft's tablets, desktops, and servers.
    04-18-2012 03:56 PM
  7. canesfan625's Avatar
    I never said we will get apollo ( I don't think, if i did , aplogies). But they aren't going to just stop updating mango phones. They WILL give us some kind of update that will apologise the phones. Not saying rewrite the whole OS for older phones but whatever new features that apollo has, e.g. skype integrated into the people hub....no reason for us not to get that. Maybe an updated people hub? Better messaging app? Maybe different coloured live tiles. no reason to not get anything like that.

    Do you REALLY think after Nokia and Microsoft have just gotten into bed together that nokia would let Microsoft just completely forget about the lumia 800, 900 and 710 a year later?!
    Microsoft can write the drivers themselves. They don't need the OEMs if they really want to get Apollo to current devices.
    04-18-2012 03:58 PM
  8. 1jaxstate1's Avatar
    But you would praise a site that said all phones WILL be getting the update, without a direct quote from MS.
    Im starting to write down a list of all people starting rumors . then post them on my the Do not trust list for the future.

    NO comfirmation was given about the actuall UPDATE!


    and who ever wrote that article is saying WP will NOT get the update . YET it he article he has a quote from MS thats does NOT comfirm it..

    "We have stated publicly that all apps in our Marketplace today will run on the next version of Windows Phone. Beyond that, we have nothing to share about future releases."

    in my world :* we have nothing to share * does not mean it WONT get updates. it means they dont know or wont share with the world to prevent lost sales.


    MS CLEARLY DOES NOT comfirm it!!!!

    this is still 100% rumor in my book , nothing has changed from the rumor we been hearing over the last 4 months.
    04-18-2012 04:00 PM
  9. mparker's Avatar
    Microsoft can write the drivers themselves. They don't need the OEMs if they really want to get Apollo to current devices.
    Only if they have the necessary information and some help from the manufacturers. Samsung and HTC could presumably send this information to Microsoft and provide any support Microsoft needs, but why would they bother? To help people avoid buying their new handsets to run Apollo?
    04-18-2012 04:05 PM
  10. canesfan625's Avatar
    Only if they have the necessary information and some help from the manufacturers. Samsung and HTC could presumably send this information to Microsoft and provide any support Microsoft needs, but why would they bother? To help people avoid buying their new handsets to run Apollo?
    Then why bother releasing any updates? Imagine all the people they could have made buy mango devices.
    04-18-2012 04:22 PM
  11. AzD's Avatar
    Are you seriously suggesting that Microsoft will somehow wave their magic wand and make Win8 work on the current devices without bootloaders and device drivers? Or they will write Apollo for the Windows 8 kernel then write it again for the Win CE kernel? Seriously?
    Pardon my ignorance on this subject, but aren't they already kind of doing that vis a vis the Windows 8 on ARM part of their Win 8 development? I am assuming much of the Windows 8 work (at least the Windows 8 on ARM part) is applicable to WP 8. However I am admittedly ignorant of the technical details and may be conflating two entirely difference things - Win 8 and WP 8.
    soulzero likes this.
    04-18-2012 04:25 PM
  12. mparker's Avatar
    Then why bother releasing any updates? Imagine all the people they could have made buy mango devices.
    Mango didn't require a new bootloader and completely new device drivers. There's a *big* difference in the amount of work involved.
    04-18-2012 04:27 PM
  13. canesfan625's Avatar
    Mango didn't require a new bootloader and completely new device drivers. There's a *big* difference in the amount of work involved.
    Mango came with drivers/bootloader/and radio updates.. Coulda just claimed it wasn't worth it or whatever excuse they choose.
    04-18-2012 04:50 PM
  14. mparker's Avatar
    Mango came with drivers/bootloader/and radio updates.. Coulda just claimed it wasn't worth it or whatever excuse they choose.
    There's a big difference between an updated bootloader and drivers and a completely new bootloader and drivers.

    There's even the possibility that the WP8 version of the drivers may not even fit in the available flash ROM; the driver system is completely different, it's possible that WP8 drivers for the same hardware may be 2x or more larger due to the different architecture and new functionality requirements.
    04-18-2012 05:00 PM
  15. canesfan625's Avatar
    There's a big difference between an updated bootloader and drivers and a completely new bootloader and drivers.

    There's even the possibility that the WP8 version of the drivers may not even fit in the available flash ROM; the driver system is completely different, it's possible that WP8 drivers for the same hardware may be 2x or more larger due to the different architecture and new functionality requirements.
    Hard to say what was what. They probably had to write at least some new drivers for the Motion API/Compass support. I'm not aware of a source that states what was updated and what was written.
    04-18-2012 05:06 PM
  16. mparker's Avatar
    Pardon my ignorance on this subject, but aren't they already kind of doing that vis a vis the Windows 8 on ARM part of their Win 8 development? I am assuming much of the Windows 8 work (at least the Windows 8 on ARM part) is applicable to WP 8. However I am admittedly ignorant of the technical details and may be conflating two entirely difference things - Win 8 and WP 8.
    You're conflating two different things. WP8 will be able to take advantage of the tablet drivers and OS work, but that doesn't help the problem with legacy WP7 devices. Those devices won't have the necessary bootloaders and drivers unless somebody (the manufacturers) takes the time and money to write and test them.
    04-18-2012 05:08 PM
  17. canesfan625's Avatar
    You're conflating two different things. WP8 will be able to take advantage of the tablet drivers and OS work, but that doesn't help the problem with legacy WP7 devices. Those devices won't have the necessary bootloaders and drivers unless somebody (the manufacturers) takes the time and money to write and test them.
    Slippery slope for them. While they could pass on writing drivers for Apollo (if that's the only thing it comes down to) in favor of forcing people to buy new devices but I wonder how many people are in the beginning and middle of contracts. Not a good time to make people angry.
    04-18-2012 05:16 PM
  18. mparker's Avatar
    Not a good time to make people angry.
    I agree. But if that happens at the same time as Windows 8 comes out with the shiny new ultrabooks and shiny new laptops and shiny new phones, there's a reasonable chance that the screams of agony from the jilted WP7 owners will be drowned out by the screams of delighted "ohhh shiny!" from everybody else.

    The key to this strategy is that Win8 had better be seriously effing awesome. I've been running Win8 CP on my Lenovo XP220T (convertible tablet) since it came out and I'd have to say it's pretty close to "seriously effing awesome".

    Edit: The second key to this strategy is making sure the WP7 owners don't find out they're jilted until the "oooh shiny" screams start...
    04-18-2012 05:20 PM
  19. canesfan625's Avatar
    I agree. But if that happens at the same time as Windows 8 comes out with the shiny new ultrabooks and shiny new laptops and shiny new phones, there's a reasonable chance that the screams of agony from the jilted WP7 owners will be drowned out by the screams of delighted "ohhh shiny!" from everybody else.

    The key to this strategy is that Win8 had better be seriously effing awesome. I've been running Win8 CP on my Lenovo XP220T (convertible tablet) since it came out and I'd have to say it's pretty close to "seriously effing awesome".
    Its going to have to be a never before seen brand of awesome. Alienate early adopters in the same exact way that Google did by giving G1 owners a giant middle finger and you'll be sitting around waiting for new sales for some time unless its power of awesome possesses you.

    Android was cool but after that stunt I passed. Went straight to WP. Neither T-mobile or google seemed to give a flying turd about Android outgrowing internal storage.
    04-18-2012 05:25 PM
  20. nopre's Avatar
    I don't expect the full-on MOJO for my trophy but I'm sure MSFT will throw me a bone. It's a fine OS that is lacking very little.

    I would like to MMS pictures and maybe a little more control over ringers and such but I'm not holding my breath on flash support...
    04-18-2012 07:51 PM
  21. canesfan625's Avatar
    I don't expect the full-on MOJO for my trophy but I'm sure MSFT will throw me a bone. It's a fine OS that is lacking very little.

    I would like to MMS pictures and maybe a little more control over ringers and such but I'm not holding my breath on flash support...
    Mobile Flash was killed by adobe. I forget what their new platform is now but it revolves around HTML 5
    04-18-2012 07:52 PM
  22. snowmutt's Avatar
    First off- I expect 2nd Gen to get the update- new kernal or not. Obviously, they will not send out an update that will make my Focus S a hi-def screen and multi-core device. So, no- not all aspects of WP8 will work. This is even more true of 1st Gen devices. But, MS wants to have an ecosystem- not just an OS. They want you to have WP8 on your PC/laptop and go out and buy a tablet as well. If your phone makes you happy and is supported, you are more likely to support Microsoft products across the board. Bank on it: all WP devices will be supported to some degree.

    Secondly: Will all of us shrivel up and throw away our phones if they don't? Has Android been hurt by less than half of their devices not getting updated? LG released the Revolution on Verizon with LTE and Froyo when Gingerbread was the rage and it still sold. All WP devices roll like a bowling ball down a just-oiled lane and perform great on 7.XXX. I will love my "S" just as much, even if I get left behind by MS.

    Which I won't.

    Neither will you.

    They will upgrade.

    Beers on me when they do.
    soulzero and Coolaaron88 like this.
    04-18-2012 10:27 PM
  23. Winterfang's Avatar
    If Apollo doesn't blow my mind I'm getting an iphone.

    Why should we have worse specked phones, less features, less apps, more expensive apps and yet pay the same as iphone/android owners? It's a downright rip-off. I'll recommend the Radar 4G/Focus Flash over any cheap Android there, but against the hight contenders Windows Phone doesn't cut it.
    1jaxstate1 likes this.
    04-18-2012 11:08 PM
  24. cckgz4's Avatar
    I see this as the iOS 5 update (I believe). iPhone 3GS is still supported but can't use all of the new features, and the next update will completely leave it out IMO and the 4 will be lacking all of the full features
    04-18-2012 11:11 PM
  25. AngryNil's Avatar
    What I don't get is why some believe that older devices will be incompatible with Apollo due to screen resolution and processor. Is Microsoft really going to release the Windows Phone 8 platform without the ability to push downstream, as Nokia wants to do?
    Last edited by AngryNil; 04-19-2012 at 05:45 AM.
    04-19-2012 05:27 AM
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