04-25-2012 08:46 AM
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  1. eastbayrae's Avatar
    What I don't get is why some believe that older devices will be incompatible with Apollo due to screen resolution and processor. Is Microsoft really going to release the Windows Phone 8 platform without the ability to push downstream, as Nokia wants to do?
    Assume you get the update. What are you expecting? From what I have seen very few of the features, that will come with it, will even work on current 2 gen phones(NFC, etc.). Other then a re-skinning of the UI I doubt you would notice much difference between what you have now and WP8.
    04-19-2012 07:00 AM
  2. mparker's Avatar
    What I don't get is why some believe that older devices will be incompatible with Apollo due to screen resolution and processor. Is Microsoft really going to release the Windows Phone 8 platform without the ability to push downstream, as Nokia wants to do?
    The screen resolution is unlikely to be a factor, but I think you're oversimplifying the potential problems elsewhere. ARM CPUs aren't like x86s. These are System-on-a-Chip (SoC) designs, meaning it's got CPU, GPU, bus controller, radios, memory, etc all on that one one single chip that we colloquially call "the processor". Besides the feature creep, there are power, battery, and radio management issues that are specific to each SoC and very important to get right.

    Beyond that, the WinCE kernel is a direct descendant of code that is contemporaneous with Windows 95. The WinCE kernel has about as much in common with Windows 8 as it does with DOS. So this isn't just an upgraded kernel, these two kernel have completely different set of assumptions about the capabilities of the machine, assumptions that were baked in years (or decades) ago.

    One of those assumptions that appears to be baked into Windows 8 ARM edition is the new UEFI BIOS. They can possibly unbake it in order to help put WP8 on legacy devices, but risk introducing security holes if they do so. And this still wouldn't help the device driver situation (distressingly analogous to the Vista fiasco, since WinCE uses the old-style device driver system while Win8 uses the Vista device driver system).

    It's impressive that the old apps will still run on WP8, testament to the abilities of .NET to insulate the application from the details of the underlying OS. But the OS's insulation from the hardware is the bootloader and device drivers, and Microsoft tossed that out with Vista.
    04-19-2012 07:53 AM
  3. canesfan625's Avatar
    but isn't UEFI a protocol and not a feature? OEMs can even allow secured booting to be disabled in the bios if they so choose.
    04-19-2012 08:32 AM
  4. mparker's Avatar
    but isn't UEFI a protocol and not a feature? OEMs can even allow secured booting to be disabled in the bios if they so choose.
    Microsoft isn't allowing this in Win 8 ARM. I don't know what all of their reasons are. Virus resistance is certainly one of them, but it's possible that there are licensing agreements for media content that require this as well. Loosening this restriction is possible, but there will almost certainly be changes needed in the OS to deal with it, changes that will need coding and testing that takes time away from the main thrust of the project. And the UEFI secure boot feature needs hardware support (it isn't pure software), hardware that may not be in the current handsets (or at least not sufficient for UEFI's needs). My point is that even if it's *possible* it isn't necessarily in Microsoft's best interests to do it, they are a big company but they aren't omnipotent and they're doing major work on the server, desktop, tablet, and phone fronts. If it came down to shipping WP8 without support for legacy devices vs slipping WP8 till Q4 next year (or not having a Win8 kernel WP8 at all), then I'm not sure I can fault them for choosing door "A".
    04-19-2012 08:44 AM
  5. canesfan625's Avatar
    Microsoft isn't allowing this in Win 8 ARM. I don't know what all of their reasons are. Virus resistance is certainly one of them, but it's possible that there are licensing agreements for media content that require this as well. Loosening this restriction is possible, but there will almost certainly be changes needed in the OS to deal with it, changes that will need coding and testing that takes time away from the main thrust of the project. And the UEFI secure boot feature needs hardware support (it isn't pure software), hardware that may not be in the current handsets (or at least not sufficient for UEFI's needs). My point is that even if it's *possible* it isn't necessarily in Microsoft's best interests to do it, they are a big company but they aren't omnipotent and they're doing major work on the server, desktop, tablet, and phone fronts. If it came down to shipping WP8 without support for legacy devices vs slipping WP8 till Q4 next year (or not having a Win8 kernel WP8 at all), then I'm not sure I can fault them for choosing door "A".
    MS_NERD tweeted that Apollo is being tested on the Lumia 610. For what it's worth he has a pretty excellent track record on his leaks.
    soulzero likes this.
    04-19-2012 09:29 AM
  6. ejb222's Avatar
    Beers on me when they do.

    I'M GOING TO HOLD YOU TO THIS!
    snowmutt likes this.
    04-19-2012 09:36 AM
  7. mkr10001's Avatar
    Microsoft can write the drivers themselves. They don't need the OEMs if they really want to get Apollo to current devices.
    ok
    04-19-2012 02:19 PM
  8. AzD's Avatar
    Assume you get the update. What are you expecting? From what I have seen very few of the features, that will come with it, will even work on current 2 gen phones(NFC, etc.). Other then a re-skinning of the UI I doubt you would notice much difference between what you have now and WP8.
    You'll notice when none of the new apps work with your old phone.
    04-19-2012 02:25 PM
  9. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    Guys how about this twist in the story now? - Windows Phone 8 Beta Report: What Features Are In Place?


    Remember just 2-3 days back we also heard about Lumia 610 + Apollo combo and we laughed at it (I know I did!) but now this one has come across. May will be a month of warm rumours and June a month of announcements. The rumour also has it that with Tango's launch in June, MSFT will start hinting about Apollo as beta is already floating in the inside circles.
    04-19-2012 05:04 PM
  10. canesfan625's Avatar
    Guys how about this twist in the story now? - Windows Phone 8 Beta Report: What Features Are In Place?


    Remember just 2-3 days back we also heard about Lumia 610 + Apollo combo and we laughed at it (I know I did!) but now this one has come across. May will be a month of warm rumours and June a month of announcements. The rumour also has it that with Tango's launch in June, MSFT will start hinting about Apollo as beta is already floating in the inside circles.
    I wouldn't laugh at something that ms_nerd says. He seems to be magical with his leaks.
    04-19-2012 05:08 PM
  11. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    I wouldn't laugh at something that ms_nerd says. He seems to be magical with his leaks.
    If that stands true then to sum up his recent tweets:

    Windows Phone 8 is beyond beta, but being tested as beta on Nokia Lumia 610, Nokia Lumia 800 and a range of other current and future devices. Microsoft is silent on this as the new upgrade won't be a simple thing for current handsets. Current owners if get the upgrade in this stage, will have to have a full back up of their data first, then flash a new Windows Phone 8 ROM, then upgrade, then restore. The OEMs and carrier stores don't want to have customers queuing for ROM flash and hence until Microsoft comes up with auto-back up, auto-ROM flash, auto-upgrade and auto-restore via Zune Client, they don't want to promise anything to the current devices. However, Microsoft and Windows Phone teams are committed to support long term to their current and future users.
    04-20-2012 02:17 AM
  12. AngryNil's Avatar
    Assume you get the update. What are you expecting? From what I have seen very few of the features, that will come with it, will even work on current 2 gen phones(NFC, etc.). Other then a re-skinning of the UI I doubt you would notice much difference between what you have now and WP8.
    I want small tweaks which fill gaps still present in the operating system. There are many (minor) flaws in Mango that have not been fixed in Tango, much like how Windows Phone 7.0 had massive issues that were only fixed in Mango (not NoDo).

    If The Verge doesn't lift my ban by April, I'll be publishing my issues with Windows Phone on this site. 8000 words.


    The screen resolution is unlikely to be a factor, but I think you're oversimplifying the potential problems elsewhere. ARM CPUs aren't like x86s. These are System-on-a-Chip (SoC) designs, meaning it's got CPU, GPU, bus controller, radios, memory, etc all on that one one single chip that we colloquially call "the processor". Besides the feature creep, there are power, battery, and radio management issues that are specific to each SoC and very important to get right.
    Yet the screen resolution is a point that many so-called tech journalists seem to point towards - "oh look, Windows Phone 8 is 720p so current devices can't get it". Makes zero sense.

    You think they can't handle multiple chassis specifications? Let's toss aside desktop Windows for a second - Microsoft is already dealing with numerous hardware components and configurations on Windows Phone (for example, HTC putting a dedicated image processing chip in the Titan II). There aren't as few chipsets as you might think - there are launch, Mango, Tango and LTE devices. Then consider that Windows Phone runs on the TG01 and HD2, which I believe are again slightly different to the launch hardware.

    I also call bull**** on kernel issues. Windows Phone apps will run on the next version, a complete ROM flash following backup of user data (to SkyDrive) will do the trick. Unless Apollo really has no support for WVGA, XDA will get it running on older devices. And if they can without a ridiculous amount of hackery, Microsoft can too.
    04-20-2012 03:08 AM
  13. N8ter's Avatar
    This whole WP7 to WP8 fiasco is starting to make me wonder if Microsoft has just lost their way. Nevermind they can simply release a desktop tool to facilitate the upgrade, similar to how Windows Mobile updates worked. I feel sorry for people who just bought the 900 if it won't be upgradeable. Some of them say they're find with it, and most of those probably are just trying to keep a straight face and play cool when they know they will be super pissed.
    04-20-2012 04:01 AM
  14. canesfan625's Avatar
    This whole WP7 to WP8 fiasco is starting to make me wonder if Microsoft has just lost their way. Nevermind they can simply release a desktop tool to facilitate the upgrade, similar to how Windows Mobile updates worked. I feel sorry for people who just bought the 900 if it won't be upgradeable. Some of them say they're find with it, and most of those probably are just trying to keep a straight face and play cool when they know they will be super pissed.
    There is no fiasco. Just a bunch of people on here acting like they have no sense. Worry about Apollo news after Tango, yeah?

    If that stands true then to sum up his recent tweets:

    Windows Phone 8 is beyond beta, but being tested as beta on Nokia Lumia 610, Nokia Lumia 800 and a range of other current and future devices. Microsoft is silent on this as the new upgrade won't be a simple thing for current handsets. Current owners if get the upgrade in this stage, will have to have a full back up of their data first, then flash a new Windows Phone 8 ROM, then upgrade, then restore. The OEMs and carrier stores don't want to have customers queuing for ROM flash and hence until Microsoft comes up with auto-back up, auto-ROM flash, auto-upgrade and auto-restore via Zune Client, they don't want to promise anything to the current devices. However, Microsoft and Windows Phone teams are committed to support long term to their current and future users.
    For those who want to follow: http://twitter.com/#!/ms_nerd
    Last edited by Canesfan625; 04-20-2012 at 05:24 AM.
    04-20-2012 05:12 AM
  15. vantil's Avatar
    People just have no patience.
    That said, Microsoft or Nokia should soon just come out and comment something. Even if they can't say anything detailed.
    God knows WP and Nokia could use good news and good media right now. So much confusion, speculation and panic going on.
    04-20-2012 06:54 AM
  16. AngryNil's Avatar
    People just have no patience.
    That said, Microsoft or Nokia should soon just come out and comment something. Even if they can't say anything detailed.
    God knows WP and Nokia could use good news and good media right now. So much confusion, speculation and panic going on.
    And as usual, overblown by the tech media.

    Microsoft has been extremely secretive lately - think about the drama around development for Windows 8, where Microsoft wouldn't/isn't answering questions vital for its developers to know.

    There's no reason to conclude that Microsoft knows for sure whether Apollo will get to current devices. It has to work with carriers and OEMs, it has to finalise Apollo (if it hasn't done so already), it needs to test it on all current devices.

    Freebie: Apple hasn't announced that iOS 6 will be compatible with current iOS devices.
    04-20-2012 07:28 AM
  17. petersun21's Avatar
    You are kidding youself if you are thinking that all wp7 devices are getting the upgrade. This late in this game, MS is still not committing to giving upgrade to some wp7 devices and only stated current apps will run on wp8. It is extremely selfish act on MS part. MS does not want to lose current apps.
    We are not getting the upgrade. On a more serious note, MS is not even commenting on future apps compatibility with current wp devices. Why should anyone buy wp?
    04-20-2012 07:42 AM
  18. canesfan625's Avatar
    Seems clear this thread has run its course. Most of the things being spewed out over and over again have been addressed more than once.
    04-20-2012 08:25 AM
  19. oldpueblo's Avatar
    http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...20-2012-142888

    Will Microsoft, the Handset Makers, or Microsoft Support Upgrades to Windows Phone 8? Duh. No.

    There were some dueling stories about whether it would be possible to upgrade any existing Windows Phone handsets—including first-generation Windows Phone 7 devices and newer Windows Phone 7.5 handsets like the Lumia 900—to the forthcoming Windows Phone 8. Allow me to set the record straight. No. It won't happen. Not for the Lumia 900, and not for any other existing phone. It won’t happen partially, through an update that will deliver just some features, and it won't happen for those who wish to pay for such an update. It simply isn't happening. Sorry. But please don’t email me about this; I’m just the messenger. That said, please consider the following logic behind this decision, which doesn’t explain why I can be so emphatic about this topic—sources at Microsoft confirmed this for me anonymously after the company’s infamously hard-to-reach Windows Phone PR team belatedly offered up a “no comment” after repeated queries. First, there’s no economic imperative; Microsoft’s partners have sold very few Windows Phones, and supporting a new platform on legacy hardware would be expensive. Second, the experience would be terrible; Windows Phone 8 is based on Windows 8, not Windows Phone 7.x, and requires headier, higher-end hardware with two or more core processors. Third, handset makers and wireless carriers would never support this upgrade; they want to sell new phones. And finally, wireless carriers would never, ever, ever, ever deliver this update to users. There is just no way this will ever happen. And that’s true even when you factor out that I know for a fact that this isn't happening. Again. Sorry.
    Honestly, I find myself not caring at all. It was kind of a surprising feeling, but then I realized I didn't want to stay on my old WP7 handset and I didn't want to switch to Android or iPhone. Instead I'm going to enjoy this fantastic Lumia 900 until I feel it's time to move to Apollo at the end of the year or early next year. I can take it back still, but I don't want to. I know people still on Gingerbread that are perfectly happy, I myself declined the honeycomb update on my tablet. Stop freaking out about specs and updates and versions in the future and just enjoy your phone.

    You know what's going to be better than the launch devices for Apollo? The phones that come out after the launch devices. :) Stop thinking of it as a brick wall and think of it as an always rolling technology upgrade. Is the Galaxy Nexus going to be the best Ice Cream sandwich device because it was first? Nope.
    invertme likes this.
    04-20-2012 03:07 PM
  20. canesfan625's Avatar
    http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...20-2012-142888



    Honestly, I find myself not caring at all. It was kind of a surprising feeling, but then I realized I didn't want to stay on my old WP7 handset and I didn't want to switch to Android or iPhone. Instead I'm going to enjoy this fantastic Lumia 900 until I feel it's time to move to Apollo at the end of the year or early next year. I can take it back still, but I don't want to. I know people still on Gingerbread that are perfectly happy, I myself declined the honeycomb update on my tablet. Stop freaking out about specs and updates and versions in the future and just enjoy your phone.
    Paul Thurrott is the biggest troll of them all. Google the guy for yourself. He's missing a few screws.
    invertme likes this.
    04-20-2012 03:09 PM
  21. oldpueblo's Avatar
    Paul Thurrott is the biggest troll of them all. Google the guy for yourself. He's missing a few screws.
    I've been following him for about a decade, I'd say the exact opposite personally. Then again as you roughly point out, this is still not official. We can always hope the rumors of Apollo being tested will bear fruit.
    04-20-2012 03:11 PM
  22. canesfan625's Avatar
    I've been following him for about a decade, I'd say the exact opposite personally. Then again as you roughly point out, this is still not official. We can always hope the rumors of Apollo being tested will bear fruit.
    Forgetting his Apple trolling He also claimed that not all phones would be getting Tango (a platform refresh) and the platform is about to fragment massively. So not all phones will be getting tango and no one is getting apollo? might as well throw it on the ground and stomp on it.
    04-20-2012 03:18 PM
  23. mkr10001's Avatar
    Everyone needs to just shut the **** up about this whole thing.

    NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE!

    We don't need thousands of threads on the same topic
    socialcarpet and invertme like this.
    04-20-2012 03:38 PM
  24. canesfan625's Avatar
    Everyone needs to just shut the **** up about this whole thing.

    NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE!

    We don't need thousands of threads on the same topic
    My Abacus isn't getting Apollo!

    invertme and socialcarpet like this.
    04-20-2012 03:54 PM
  25. mparker's Avatar
    Forgetting his Apple trolling He also claimed that not all phones would be getting Tango (a platform refresh) and the platform is about to fragment massively. So not all phones will be getting tango and no one is getting apollo? might as well throw it on the ground and stomp on it.
    I don't know if he's right or not but I fail to see how these statements of his are obviously nonsensical.

    How many phones have gotten Tango so far? Has AT&T announced that the Gen1 handsets will get it, or even if the early Gen2 handsets (Titan, Focus S) will get it? Presumably the L900 will, but the earlier ones? I know there's been claims that the carriers are contractually bound to provide major updates, but that's just wishful thinking unless somebody comes up with copies of the contracts.

    If Thurrott is right that a major issue with the Gen1 and Gen 1.5 handsets is that they can't run Apollo because they're underpowered, then he's also right that WP is about to fragment, because this means that MS can't push WP8 down to the 256MB and 128MB budget phones *either* so WP7 and WP8 will have to coexist.
    04-20-2012 04:04 PM
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