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04-25-2012 08:46 AM
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  1. canesfan625's Avatar
    I don't know if he's right or not but I fail to see how these statements of his are obviously nonsensical.

    How many phones have gotten Tango so far? Has AT&T announced that the Gen1 handsets will get it, or even if the early Gen2 handsets (Titan, Focus S) will get it? Presumably the L900 will, but the earlier ones? I know there's been claims that the carriers are contractually bound to provide major updates, but that's just wishful thinking unless somebody comes up with copies of the contracts.

    If Thurrott is right that a major issue with the Gen1 and Gen 1.5 handsets is that they can't run Apollo because they're underpowered, then he's also right that WP is about to fragment, because this means that MS can't push WP8 down to the 256MB and 128MB budget phones *either* so WP7 and WP8 will have to coexist.
    His speculation on Devices getting tango are because in his world it only adds support for low end devices. The reality is different. It adds new features as well.

    Tango Unlocked Emulator, plus video demo of changes - Windows Phone Hacker
    04-20-2012 04:10 PM
  2. socialcarpet's Avatar
    Everyone needs to just shut the **** up about this whole thing.

    NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE!

    We don't need thousands of threads on the same topic
    Seriously.

    Everyone STFU already.

    The righteous indignation over rumors is absurd. Some of these idiots are ready to crucify Microsoft over SOMETHING THEY HAVEN'T EVEN SAID A WORD ABOUT.

    Until MICROSOFT or NOKIA or AT&T says definitively what they are doing here, there is ABSOLUTELY NO POINT in getting worked up over stupid rumors and speculation and treating them like facts.

    It's going to be a while until any of them make any kind of concrete statements about this, so I suggest you make yourselves comfortable and carry on with your lives instead of stirring up this sh*tstorm over nothing constantly here and on the Verge and other stupid worthless rumor sites.
    04-20-2012 04:17 PM
  3. mparker's Avatar
    His speculation on Devices getting tango are because in his world it only adds support for low end devices. The reality is different. It adds new features as well.
    I'm aware of that, but I fail to see how it makes his statement about Tango nonsensical. If AT&T decides to distribute Tango for the Gen1.5 devices as a sop for missing Apollo, how does this not qualify as "not all devices getting Tango". Conversely if AT&T decides not to distribute Tango to all of their legacy devices because it's main features are things like lower memory consumption and extra languages, how does this still not qualify as "not all devices getting Tango"? And if AT&T decides not to distribute Tango to their Gen 1 devices because they're just greedy b*stards who hate us, how does this still not qualify as "not all devices getting Tango"?
    04-20-2012 04:20 PM
  4. socialcarpet's Avatar
    This whole WP7 to WP8 fiasco is starting to make me wonder if Microsoft has just lost their way. Nevermind they can simply release a desktop tool to facilitate the upgrade, similar to how Windows Mobile updates worked. I feel sorry for people who just bought the 900 if it won't be upgradeable. Some of them say they're find with it, and most of those probably are just trying to keep a straight face and play cool when they know they will be super pissed.
    The only "fiasco" is in the minds of the idiots who are letting their imaginations run wild on baseless rumors and bullish*t when there isn't a single solitary meaningful statement about this from Microsoft. Until there is, there is no "fiasco", in fact there's nothing to discuss really. Just a lot of drama perpetuated by ***** hipster bloggers and people who play right into it.
    04-20-2012 04:22 PM
  5. canesfan625's Avatar
    I'm aware of that, but I fail to see how it makes his statement about Tango nonsensical. If AT&T decides to distribute Tango for the Gen1.5 devices as a sop for missing Apollo, how does this not qualify as "not all devices getting Tango". Conversely if AT&T decides not to distribute Tango to all of their legacy devices because it's main features are things like lower memory consumption and extra languages, how does this still not qualify as "not all devices getting Tango"? And if AT&T decides not to distribute Tango to their Gen 1 devices because they're just greedy b*stards who hate us, how does this still not qualify as "not all devices getting Tango"?
    The first is an update, or set of updates, code-named Tango, that’s targeting only new devices that will be sold in emerging markets.
    If it doesn't get released because a carrier decides to hold it back for some strange reason his assumption is still incorrect. Tango is not "targeting only new devices in emerging markets"

    -EDIT- ATT has committed to a post 8107 update already...
    04-20-2012 04:26 PM
  6. mparker's Avatar
    If it doesn't get released because a carrier decides to hold it back for some strange reason his assumption is still incorrect. Tango is not "targeting only new devices in emerging markets"
    You're making a category error here. Thurrott was talking about Microsoft's intentions with respect to Tango. I don't see why Microsoft can't add a few features to their OS while still targeting it primarily at new devices in new and emerging markets. But that's just Microsoft's intentions. AT&T and Nokia or Samsung or HTC may well have other intentions towards it - such as using it as a sop to the owners of their current devices a few months before Apollo rolls out and the world passes them bye.

    -EDIT- ATT has committed to a post 8107 update already...
    But to which devices? All of their devices? Even if they say all devices what does "all" mean? All the ones they've ever sold, or all the ones they're selling now? Or only the ones they're selling at the time of the Tango rollout - which may mean only the 900 and Titan S get it?
    04-20-2012 04:48 PM
  7. canesfan625's Avatar
    You're making a category error here. Thurrott was talking about Microsoft's intentions with respect to Tango. I don't see why Microsoft can't add a few features to their OS while still targeting it primarily at new devices in new and emerging markets. But that's just Microsoft's intentions. AT&T and Nokia or Samsung or HTC may well have other intentions towards it - such as using it as a sop to the owners of their current devices a few months before Apollo rolls out and the world passes them bye.



    But to which devices? All of their devices? Even if they say all devices what does "all" mean? All the ones they've ever sold, or all the ones they're selling now? Or only the ones they're selling at the time of the Tango rollout - which may mean only the 900 and Titan S get it?
    He is saying that's why we wont get it. He is saying that devices will not get tango because it targets emerging markets. I'm not sure how else to word it. Its a refresh that brings support to low end devices as well as some nice new features to everything else. It seems to just be somewhat the opposite of Apollo.

    -Edit- Tango is an update to Mango. Hard to do that if its only targeting emerging markets. Microsoft said they are pushing it to all devices unless for some reason a carrier blocks it.

    All devices. There was some outlash over them not releasing 8107. Their response was that a better update is coming.
    Last edited by Canesfan625; 04-20-2012 at 05:05 PM.
    04-20-2012 04:55 PM
  8. mparker's Avatar
    He is saying that's why we wont get it. He is saying that devices will not get tango because it targets emerging markets.
    Sure. It's the next version of WP7, which targets emerging markets, includes bugfixes that were developed post-mango, etc. Because emerging markets are its primary focus, it's not considered a major update for existing devices. Presumably this means that to whatever extent the carriers are required to push out major updates, they're not bound by this with Tango.


    -Edit- Tango is an update to Mango. Hard to do that if its only targeting emerging markets.
    Every release of every product has a set of big-bullet items in that release, and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't the main point of the release but go in anyway.

    BTW there is some evidence that Tango isn't actually a release the way NoDo or Mango were, that what we're calling Tango is really a collection of releases falling into at least two major groups, Tango1 which reduced the memory requirements and added language packs, and Tango2 which added more language packs and LTE support and some other features.

    Microsoft said they are pushing it to all devices unless for some reason a carrier blocks it.

    All devices. There was some outlash over them not releasing 8107. Their response was that a better update is coming.
    That's fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. Why should AT&T even bother testing it for devices that aren't being sold anymore? And if they don't bother testing it then why shouldn't they block it - after all there may be a critical bug on one of the variants of the Focus, or it may brick some phones.
    Last edited by mparker; 04-20-2012 at 06:07 PM.
    04-20-2012 06:01 PM
  9. joemd60's Avatar
    As far as I am concerned. By the time Apollo gets here, I will be due for an upgrade.
    04-20-2012 06:12 PM
  10. canesfan625's Avatar
    Sure. It's the next version of WP7, which targets emerging markets, includes bugfixes that were developed post-mango, etc. Because emerging markets are its primary focus, it's not considered a major update for existing devices. Presumably this means that to whatever extent the carriers are required to push out major updates, they're not bound by this with Tango.




    Every release of every product has a set of big-bullet items in that release, and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't the main point of the release but go in anyway.

    BTW there is some evidence that Tango isn't actually a release the way NoDo or Mango were, that what we're calling Tango is really a collection of releases falling into at least two major groups, Tango1 which reduced the memory requirements and added language packs, and Tango2 which added more language packs and LTE support and some other features.



    That's fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. Why should AT&T even bother testing it for devices that aren't being sold anymore? And if they don't bother testing it then why shouldn't they block it - after all there may be a critical bug on one of the variants of the Focus, or it may brick some phones.
    The whole tango 1,2, 25, 75, hike rumor was debunked some time ago. Its one update.

    For everything else, Microsoft unveils 'Tango' Windows Phone update (without ever using the codename) | ZDNet
    Last edited by Canesfan625; 04-21-2012 at 05:42 AM.
    04-20-2012 06:54 PM
  11. AngryNil's Avatar
    Thurrott's track record is far from even decent. As for The Verge - remember when they claimed the iPad 2 was going to have expandable storage and a Retina display? Stop stating rumours as fact.

    There's one version of Tango going to every phone out there. Why? Because Windows Phone is able to enable and disable features based on region, manufacturer and hardware. And that's exactly what Apollo should be doing.

    I haven't seen any convincing argument against Apollo coming to current devices other than Microsoft / manufacturers / carriers being too lazy.
    1jaxstate1 likes this.
    04-21-2012 01:09 AM
  12. paulm187's Avatar
    The Nokia Lumia's will get WP8, although not all the features. I'll bet my left one on that.
    04-21-2012 05:30 AM
  13. Fuzzy John's Avatar
    The Nokia Lumia's will get WP8, although not all the features. I'll bet my left one on that.
    Oh no!!! Not the left one!!! :D
    04-21-2012 10:31 AM
  14. kenzibit's Avatar
    You're making a category error here. Thurrott was talking about Microsoft's intentions with respect to Tango. I don't see why Microsoft can't add a few features to their OS while still targeting it primarily at new devices in new and emerging markets. But that's just Microsoft's intentions. AT&T and Nokia or Samsung or HTC may well have other intentions towards it - such as using it as a sop to the owners of their current devices a few months before Apollo rolls out and the world passes them bye.



    But to which devices? All of their devices? Even if they say all devices what does "all" mean? All the ones they've ever sold, or all the ones they're selling now? Or only the ones they're selling at the time of the Tango rollout - which may mean only the 900 and Titan S get it?
    You have a point there
    04-21-2012 01:03 PM
  15. canesfan625's Avatar
    You have a point there
    ATT committed to an update that's better than 8107 on their very own forums when people demanded 8107. It wouldnt make much sense for them to only release it on certian devices when its being targeted to all current ones. Tango is a refresh of Tango respective to where its being released. In China its targeted towards emerging markets. Everywhere else (outside of emerging markets) its targeted as an update to mango. People are just over analyzing it
    04-21-2012 01:53 PM
  16. jfa1's Avatar
    ATT committed to an update that's better than 8107 on their very own forums when people demanded 8107. It wouldnt make much sense for them to only release it on certian devices when its being targeted to all current ones. Tango is a refresh of Tango respective to where its being released. In China its targeted towards emerging markets. Everywhere else (outside of emerging markets) its targeted as an update to mango. People are just over analyzing it
    Thats a first! Ha Ha paralysis by (over)analysis. Or is it overreaction by over analysis?
    04-21-2012 02:31 PM
  17. Joelist's Avatar
    Thurrott's track record is far from even decent. As for The Verge - remember when they claimed the iPad 2 was going to have expandable storage and a Retina display? Stop stating rumours as fact.

    There's one version of Tango going to every phone out there. Why? Because Windows Phone is able to enable and disable features based on region, manufacturer and hardware. And that's exactly what Apollo should be doing.

    I haven't seen any convincing argument against Apollo coming to current devices other than Microsoft / manufacturers / carriers being too lazy.
    Actually Thurotte has a pretty darn good track record. It's the Verge that has the laughable track record.
    04-21-2012 05:26 PM
  18. canesfan625's Avatar
    Actually Thurotte has a pretty darn good track record. It's the Verge that has the laughable track record.
    Of what? Do you pay attention to his Apple shenanigans?

    Lets not forget this: WinInfo Short Takes, April 20, 2012

    Paul Thurrott confirms no Windows Phone 8 for any current handsets

    He confirmed it? Yeah, Okay Rick.
    04-21-2012 05:50 PM
  19. jrdatrackstar1223's Avatar
    Here is why I don't think current devices (even the 900) won't get Apollo....

    Both Microsoft and Nokia knew, before the "huge marketing" they have been claiming will come with the Lumia 900, that NO device would get Apollo. So why release the Lumia 900 only to abandon it 6 months later...? One word: hype.

    Think about it. If they can get the Lumia to sell well, developers will come. The Lumia was meant to be a "here, look at what Microsoft is doing with a beautiful device" type of device to spark both consumer AND developer interest. This why Micorosft is only saying "all apps you develop for Windows Phone NOW will work later...". They carefully and purposefully worded that for DEVELOPERS because lets face it...developers WILL buy a different device when Apollo is released when current devices will be abandoned. They released the Lumia for APPS and HYPE as a precursor for their "strong push" with Apollo, so that developers will get behind a beautiful device, that has hype and marketing (if it indeed is selling well), and has a PROMISE of having backwards comparability for the APPS that are written for that beautiful device....

    Microsoft knows they lost this round, and they know they will p'off a lot of their "cult" (being us, people who know about forms because lets face it....those are the majority of windows phone users). That's why they are starting over. Carriers (even Verizon) have said they will support Windows Phone 8, but do you think a carrier (especially Verizon) meant that in reference to current devices (their one device in Verizon's case)? No. They meant "hey, when you guys get Android-like high end specs (WITHOUT android), and put a beautiful OS like this (Windows Phone 8) on it, this could definitely compete with iPhone and Android (which they said they want so that competition will balance out more) and make us good money!".

    I see Microsoft paying attention to the most important players here and the ones standing in the way of success: developers and carriers. They HAVE to get them on board first. In the scenario I described, carriers would be happy to rake in incoming new customers with the high end devices (to sway the Android following), and developers would know that apps they develop for WP7 will work later just fine (an issue Android is having with its fragmentation issues). In the end, someone has to lose, and it CANNOT be carriers. Unfortunately it will have to be us (and keep in mind that that's an EXTREMELY small number).

    That said, I think Microsoft will be INSANE if they don't offer a similar program to their "Smoked by Windows Phone" campaign where people can trade in their current device for a Windows Phone. To "make things right" Microsoft BETTER do this (if I am right) because the average smartphone buyer won't pay 600 something dollars for Windows Phone 8 because they won't know why it's so valuable enough to pay 600 bucks when they JUST purchased a Lumia 900 on a contract....

    Ironically, as others have stated in reference to the Smartphone Beta Test commercials, every Windows Phone user would be a beta tester lol...even for the device they are promoting. Why Microsoft would push this "beta test" for this long, knowing it was failing and waste people's money is beyond me though. They may have had high hopes that it would succeed, but after a year of no success and knowing the next update(s) wouldn't bring dramatic changes that many people cried for that were missing, they could have collected the complaints and "beta results" and had Windows Phone 8 AND the nicer devices out by now....
    Last edited by jrdatrackstar; 04-21-2012 at 09:40 PM.
    rockstarzzz likes this.
    04-21-2012 09:20 PM
  20. AngryNil's Avatar
    Actually Thurotte has a pretty darn good track record. It's the Verge that has the laughable track record.
    Oh, do remind me. Who stated that Mango was not going to come out until 2012?

    Thurrott.
    04-21-2012 10:03 PM
  21. vantil's Avatar
    Here is why I don't think current devices (even the 900) won't get Apollo....

    Both Microsoft and Nokia knew, before the "huge marketing" they have been claiming will come with the Lumia 900, that NO device would get Apollo. So why release the Lumia 900 only to abandon it 6 months later...? One word: hype.
    So you think spending hundreds of millions of dollars to promote WP7 and Lumia "hype" makes sense if you are planning to dumb them both in just 6 months and start all over? All that money just to boost the number of apps?

    In my opinion: Nonsense. It absolutely makes no sense.
    All that press that they are building now would turn against them and bite WP8 and Nokia in the a**. That bad press would kill the WP8 start and hurt Nokia HARD. It would be such a dumb move for both Microsoft and Nokia that I just can't imagine them doing it. They have been planning this for too long and planning it together from the day 1.

    I would also bet my left one that atleast lumias get upgraded. Some way.
    04-22-2012 11:25 AM
  22. smoledman's Avatar
    It makes no sense for 7.x devices to get Apollo as so much of that is tied up in UEFI/NT kernel and new hardware support. What would be dumb is if 7.x owners did not get several more minor revisions for the next year.
    04-22-2012 12:39 PM
  23. socialcarpet's Avatar
    04-22-2012 12:41 PM
  24. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    Anyone dizzy? :dry
    04-22-2012 12:42 PM
  25. CJ Thunder's Avatar
    If the specs allow it, the phone will get it. MS is a software company. I could even see them developing other phone's drivers.

    I don't think many early adopters would sing the praise of WP if we get left out in the rain. or buy a Windows 8 tablet...
    Last edited by CJ Thunder; 04-22-2012 at 12:55 PM.
    04-22-2012 12:48 PM
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