05-03-2012 01:34 AM
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  1. socialcarpet's Avatar
    Really? That must be the reason my update for Skydrive 2.0 came in this morning. The same reason that MS follies about the Office Hub. Let's face it, we are all "consumers" and the enterprise set doesn't really have a choice since the boss is the one who doles out the phones. That being said, there are quite a few small business owners and self-employed types who need more than 4 versions of Angry Birds at their disposal. WP7 has the best feature set for that crowd right now AND a decent camera, an awesome eBay app and Facebook app. Have you tried the Pageonce app? It makes MS Money look like Monopoly money. :)
    I'm not saying it's an either/or scenario. We can have it all, and I think we soon will.
    04-23-2012 11:10 AM
  2. N8ter's Avatar
    neither the mobile, apps, or even phone part were something apple hadn't tried before. That phone contraption from the 80s, they had some kinda iPad device designed around the same time and then project Newton.

    between mango/ios5/gingerbread we have just arrived back at everyone borrowing everyone's features.
    -edit- as for froyo/eclair I couldn't remember which. Eclair was the one that finally added an account sync system that wasn't crap and fixed messaging and some other issues
    That phone wasn't a smartphone, and was basically a failed research project for cutesy office equipment. It was in the 1980s. Microsoft had Windows Mobile/Pocket PC out and the Blackberry was out for over half a decade before the iPhone and Android were on the market - nevermind Palm's devices. They had more than enough time to innovate and bring revolutionary devices to the market. They didn't, becuase they didn't care about consumers. They only cared about business users who were very utilitarian in their smartphone use (i.e the types of people USB Mass Storage and SD Card slots are a showstopper for, for example, and who generally don't care about camera quality and things like that).

    Eclair was released at the beginning of 2010 or so. That's over 2 years ago. I already said that was the big Android update that really made it usable. Glad you agree. But it was a long time ago and WP7 came out the gate competing against phones being released with FroYo on board, and by the time Mango rolled around GB was coming on all new phones. Between Mango and Apollo they'll probably skip ICS and have to compete with JB at Apollo launch. WP7 competed against iOS 4 and 5. Eclair and iOS4 were released before WP7 was even RTM'd. Phones like the Galaxy S/Droid X and iPhone 4 were released months before WP7 devices arrived in carrier stores.

    Nevermind, WP7 had its own issues on release. Copy/Past, Multi-Tasking, Video MMS, IM, Decent Browser, etc. were all missing on release so even the platform we use had to wait a year before it was at least on par for competititiveness.

    I still think WP7 is suffering from a bit of bad stigma from launch, cause the platform wasn't ready then. Releasing something like Mango back then and then building on top of it would have put them in a MUCH MUCH better position these days, but people form opinions, keep them, and share them a lot. Consumer-based interpersonal marketing and marketing through peer pressure works way better than commercial and add campaigns on the internet that half of people probably don't see due to addblock add-ons and using smartphones to browse, anyways...
    04-23-2012 09:43 PM
  3. N8ter's Avatar
    Well, that's true. Microsoft isn't new to smartphones. That said, the story I heard is that they were in the process of revamping Windows Mobile when the iPhone came out. They took one look at the iPhone and they realized what they had was not going to be able to compete. So they threw it all out and basically started all over again. So that essentially put them behind by at least the amount of time that it took Apple to develop the iPhone.

    It's not as if Windows Phone 7 was just a re-skin of Windows Mobile, they had to essential redesign the thing from the ground up. I'm sure they were able to reuse bits and pieces but it was no small undertaking.

    I'm confident that the few things that are missing will be addressed in the next major update and they won't be a point of contention anymore.
    No. They only really redesigned the UI layer and used new app frameworks and libraries. The core of the OS is still very similar, it's just updated. It's still a CE-based OS. They basically did one half for WP7/7.5 and will finish off the rest in Apollo (swapping out underpinnings from CE to NT).

    Some things have been missing since launch and people have been saying the same thing. I'm not so wililng to lemming that statement anymore, not that I care at this point.
    Last edited by N8ter; 04-24-2012 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Fixed a typo.
    04-23-2012 09:45 PM
  4. tekhna's Avatar
    I still think WP7 is suffering from a bit of bad stigma from launch, cause the platform wasn't ready then. Releasing something like Mango back then and then building on top of it would have put them in a MUCH MUCH better position these days, but people form opinions, keep them, and share them a lot. Consumer-based interpersonal marketing and marketing through peer pressure works way better than commercial and add campaigns on the internet that half of people probably don't see due to addblock add-ons and using smartphones to browse, anyways...
    I think people have totally forgotten about the launch. I just think no one cares about much other than the iphone and Android right now. WP7 just isn't really relevant, for better or worse.
    04-23-2012 09:59 PM
  5. madhouse1616's Avatar
    Well, that's true. Microsoft isn't new to smartphones. That said, the story I heard is that they were in the process of revamping Windows Mobile when the iPhone came out. They took one look at the iPhone and they realized what they had was not going to be able to compete. So they threw it all out and basically started all over again. So that essentially put them behind by at least the amount of time that it took Apple to develop the iPhone.

    It's not as if Windows Phone 7 was just a re-skin of Windows Mobile, they had to essential redesign the thing from the ground up. I'm sure they were able to reuse bits and pieces but it was no small undertaking.

    I'm confident that the few things that are missing will be addressed in the next major update and they won't be a point of contention anymore.
    not entirely from the ground up...they stole their own zune team who designed the zune hd interface..anyone with a zune instantly recognizes the features and those who have a zune absolutely love the interface simplicity
    04-23-2012 10:35 PM
  6. N8ter's Avatar
    I think people have totally forgotten about the launch. I just think no one cares about much other than the iphone and Android right now. WP7 just isn't really relevant, for better or worse.
    People don't forget their opinions. That's what I meant.

    "First impressions are lasting impressions."

    Issue is, like WebOS, WP7 really didn't make a great first impression. WebOS sort of got killed by putting it on one carrier here in the beginning, arguably the worst carrier in the US (Sprint) and the hardware was bad. WP7 sort of defeated itself by launching beta-quality software in a competitive market.

    Also, people put way too much hope in the Nokia deal which I'm sure doesn't really give the other OEMs much reason to "innovate" in this ecosystem. Microsoft shouldn't have played favorites with their partners, IMO.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-24-2012 10:15 AM
  7. tekhna's Avatar
    People don't forget their opinions. That's what I meant.

    "First impressions are lasting impressions."

    Issue is, like WebOS, WP7 really didn't make a great first impression. WebOS sort of got killed by putting it on one carrier here in the beginning, arguably the worst carrier in the US (Sprint) and the hardware was bad. WP7 sort of defeated itself by launching beta-quality software in a competitive market.

    Also, people put way too much hope in the Nokia deal which I'm sure doesn't really give the other OEMs much reason to "innovate" in this ecosystem. Microsoft shouldn't have played favorites with their partners, IMO.
    That's my point--WP7 didn't make an impression at all. Like basically nothing. It's not about bad impressions, it's just that when you don't make an impression at all no one remembers you're there. I'd bet outside of nerd circles and those people who ran into a WP7 phone at a store, no one knows it exists. My dad, who's relatively tech savvy (for a guy his age) and uses Microsoft products for everything except his phone didn't even know Microsoft had a phone OS anymore.

    I'd be willing to bet if you went around asking random folks on the street what they know about WP7, I'd bet half of them would tell you they didn't even know Microsoft made a phone OS anymore. It's not just that WP7's marketshare is effectively 0%, their mindshare is effectively 0% too, outside of design and nerd circles.
    This is absolutely dreadful, but, and this is an important but--this is Microsoft's chance to score big with WP8. Totally reboot the OS, the phones, cut off legacy devices and damn the torpedos.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-24-2012 10:33 AM
  8. diplomat696's Avatar
    That was kinda the point. You're sorta giving MS a pass because the other guys did the same thing. Yet a lot has changed since then, and that was back when smartphones, all smartphones, simply sucked. Heck, most people didn't even know what a smartphone was.

    iOS & Android have been around for a long time now (in tech years anyway). They got a pass because they were first & no one knew any better. Now we do. So how are you going to convince Joe & Jane Consumer to give MS a pass the same way, when they could just go with one of the more mature ecosystems?? Honest question.

    Microsoft seems like they're always playing catchup.
    Yeah they are playing catch up because the OS has only been in the wild for roughly 18 months or so.

    I would love to know how many regular (non-power users) of smart phones really use copy and paste functions a lot. I have a use for it on very rare occasions when someone asks me for a link from twitter via a text message or something of this kind but otherwise I rarely use it either to be honest.

    My wife and mother in law both just got Lumia 900s but I have not shown them the copy and paste function and neither one has asked me about it or even hinted that they would need such a function or something similar and they both text and email a lot.

    My belief is that MS did not see C&P as a need for the masses at the time of the original release and as many other posters have stated were looking for a simplistic easy to use smart phone experience. I believe truly that WP7 is a one of a kind experience in terms of visuals and simplicity. The experience is what sells people and the more people that are exposed to the OS itself I think the more it will catch on.

    It is kind of tiresome also to still see trolls talking about how back in 2010 WP did not have a copy and paste feature, guess what, it has one now and has done since a long time ago!!! The features are gradually coming, apollo is going to add even more (can't wait) but yet the droid/crapple fanbois are gonna keep on hating because they can't let go and let's face it EVERYONE HATES CHANGE right......
    04-24-2012 04:42 PM
  9. jabtano's Avatar
    That's my point--WP7 didn't make an impression at all. Like basically nothing. It's not about bad impressions, it's just that when you don't make an impression at all no one remembers you're there. I'd bet outside of nerd circles and those people who ran into a WP7 phone at a store, no one knows it exists. My dad, who's relatively tech savvy (for a guy his age) and uses Microsoft products for everything except his phone didn't even know Microsoft had a phone OS anymore.

    I'd be willing to bet if you went around asking random folks on the street what they know about WP7, I'd bet half of them would tell you they didn't even know Microsoft made a phone OS anymore. It's not just that WP7's marketshare is effectively 0%, their mindshare is effectively 0% too, outside of design and nerd circles.
    This is absolutely dreadful, but, and this is an important but--this is Microsoft's chance to score big with WP8. Totally reboot the OS, the phones, cut off legacy devices and damn the torpedos.
    You make a great point on impressions. Lets face it most of us here are WP7 users I for one do not want to see this fail, fact is I want to succeed. But MS has this way of well.. even win8 is a few months behind win7 at the same time frame with prevue releases There are a few things that would really make an impression. One of them we are seeing now with Nokia Lumia 900 it's a great looking device with a great price and apps. we have yet to see what MS is going to do with WP8 but if they add landscaping and other features they could make lasting impressions one other thing when they show off the OS rather than just show the plan color tiles show the ones that are actually live and updating like the people tile.I think that if WP8 doesn't push this OS forwarded more then it will never go MS is really coming from the back of the pack in mobility and tablets... lets see what they can do
    04-24-2012 07:01 PM
  10. Raptor007's Avatar
    MS needs to name the platform something else. No one cares if you have a desktop/laptop with XP vs Win7 vs Win8 its a desktop OS and it gets the job done. Most people buy a new desktop and get the new OS.

    In the world of smartphones MS thinks you can still follow the same naming method, calling the platform WP7, WP7.5, WP7.5 Refresh, WP8 is stupid and tells people your device is date old or fragmented from the pack. No one should care or really notice what version of the OS you have, what they should notice is the Metro UI and know is the "Fill In blank Here" platform.

    XBox has a great name, Zune . . . well it was crappy hardware and too little way too late. Perhaps if they put all of their entertainment/mobile, etc folks together and made them work together stuff would actually work well.

    I'm coming back to WP with a Trophy, but honestly if MS can't get their stuff together with WP8 it may be short lived. I'm tired of Android, sick of iOS and "having" to get the new phone every year or else you look dated or worse your phone doesn't get an OS update for say 9-12 months if ever.

    MS really has a shot to take it big, but as they always do they could fall flat on their face again.
    04-24-2012 09:04 PM
  11. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I guess the internet trolls give us tekkie peeps a 'cult like' status when it comes to opinions, but from what you've described, this a more indicative of the normal, more level-headed tech enthusiasts. :)
    You're right. People in know in the real world are not at all like internet trolls.
    04-25-2012 12:22 AM
  12. N8ter's Avatar
    There are economics involved in choosing platforms. Being late and not having decent momentum puts you at a huge disadvantage there. The longer people stay on other platforms, the harder it is for them to migrate away from them.
    04-25-2012 02:13 AM
  13. jabtano's Avatar
    There are economics involved in choosing platforms. Being late and not having decent momentum puts you at a huge disadvantage there. The longer people stay on other platforms, the harder it is for them to migrate away from them.
    That is very true and why it's such an up hill fight for this OS.
    04-25-2012 05:32 AM
  14. socialcarpet's Avatar
    There are economics involved in choosing platforms. Being late and not having decent momentum puts you at a huge disadvantage there. The longer people stay on other platforms, the harder it is for them to migrate away from them.
    Good point. That is one reason why I try never to rely on an app that isn't cross-platform. I use EverNote since its available on all 3 platforms and Mac and PC. The one exception may be MS Office in this phone id lose that if I went to another platform.

    I have spent a little money on Android apps, but I refuse to get myself in a position where I feel like I cannot switch OS .

    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
    04-25-2012 12:47 PM
  15. mparker's Avatar
    There are economics involved in choosing platforms. Being late and not having decent momentum puts you at a huge disadvantage there. The longer people stay on other platforms, the harder it is for them to migrate away from them.
    This is the basis behind MS's Win8 push, to change the economic calculation to one where Android and iOS are at a disadvantage because their installed base and developer base is so much smaller than Windows. It remains to be seen if they'll succeed; Microsoft's argument is full of holes and their success depends on Apple and Google not exploiting these holes.

    Microsoft's best chance of success occurs if Intel's phone and tablet chipsets become better than the ARM designs, because Microsoft's weaknesses are magnified on ARM designs and they have many strengths on Intel designs (Win8 desktop mode for tablets). There's evidence that the Medfield SoC is at least competitive with current state-of-the-art ARM systems, and if Intel manages to "win" the mobile processor war in any significant way then iOS will be in a world of hurt, Apple will be back to where they were in the 68k and PowerPC days. One of the things that Intel is trying to do is commoditize the system designs the way they have with PCs.

    This review of the Medfield reference phone is especially interesting, not only for the performance and battery numbers, but for how Intel is trying to transform the mobile manufacturing space: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5770/l...medfield-phone
    Last edited by mparker; 04-25-2012 at 01:04 PM.
    04-25-2012 12:56 PM
  16. tekhna's Avatar
    That is very true and why it's such an up hill fight for this OS.
    The fancy term is path dependance.
    Path dependence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Once people invest in an ecosystem it's really hard to get them out of it. Hence Google's desperate attempt to get it's "Play" ecosystem to take off.
    04-25-2012 02:05 PM
  17. N8ter's Avatar
    Googles play ecosystem has already taken off. It will take a miracl for it to fail with how many android phones out there have gapps on them.


    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
    04-30-2012 07:27 AM
  18. HeyCori's Avatar
    Googles play ecosystem has already taken off. It will take a miracl for it to fail with how many android phones out there have gapps on them.


    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
    Google Music isn't doing so well according to Neowin. Though I wouldn't go so far as to saying that all of Google Play is in a death spiral.

    Google Music struggling as user numbers keep on dropping - Neowin
    04-30-2012 07:38 AM
  19. nyc_rock's Avatar
    Apple got a pass on missing features for years. What do they do? Bake cookies?

    Android was missing some features through I think Froyo? What does Google do? Spreadsheets? They aren't poor either.
    Because people arent comparing WP to the Iphone from two years ago. They are comparing the phone to the iphone of today. You dont buy a WP and say, its ok that I dont have core functionality becuase the Iphone didnt have it at this point of its development. You say, I could get an Iphone or Android device and have it all right now.
    05-01-2012 07:02 AM
  20. nyc_rock's Avatar
    The problem with WP as I see it is that Microsoft has not allowed differentiation of hardware. They have taken the Apple approach where they control everything. The OEM's are just producers of Microsofts products. Every WP out today is essentially the same with the exception of screen size. I know its big to defend WP against spec lovers becuase it doesnt need it. But human beings like to buy toys that are cool and powerful. Even if its not technically needed. I would love to get a WP, but I dont as I continue to wait for the next iteration hoping for something better. I wait for better and higher screen resolutions, more powerful core functionality, more app's, better camera's, more onboard memory etc. All of which are available on competing platforms.
    05-01-2012 07:07 AM
  21. N8ter's Avatar
    The problem with WP as I see it is that Microsoft has not allowed differentiation of hardware. They have taken the Apple approach where they control everything. The OEM's are just producers of Microsofts products. Every WP out today is essentially the same with the exception of screen size. I know its big to defend WP against spec lovers becuase it doesnt need it. But human beings like to buy toys that are cool and powerful. Even if its not technically needed. I would love to get a WP, but I dont as I continue to wait for the next iteration hoping for something better. I wait for better and higher screen resolutions, more powerful core functionality, more app's, better camera's, more onboard memory etc. All of which are available on competing platforms.
    The showstopper isn't necessarily the specs, it's that the specs do not match the prices they are charging for these devices. WP7 devices have half the specs of Android devices and the new devices have worse specs than an iPhone 4S, but they're still looking for the same MSRP as Quad-Core Android phones. For why?

    It's simply people looking at them and saying "why should I pay this much for a Corolla when I can get a Ferrari instead?"

    If these mid-range phones (cause that's what they literally are, even teh 900) had mid-range prices (the 900 does, at least on contract), they would have sold a lot more phones.

    But bringing the Titan II/Focus S at $199 contract price against iPhone 4S and top end Androids (and AT&T is getting most of the best Android devices coming out these days) just isn't going to cut it in this market.

    People care about phone specs the same way someone who doens't do anything but surf the web and use Microsoft Office will choose a similarly priced, higher spec'd Dell or HP over an eMachine.
    05-01-2012 08:23 AM
  22. canesfan625's Avatar
    The showstopper isn't necessarily the specs, it's that the specs do not match the prices they are charging for these devices. WP7 devices have half the specs of Android devices and the new devices have worse specs than an iPhone 4S, but they're still looking for the same MSRP as Quad-Core Android phones. For why?

    It's simply people looking at them and saying "why should I pay this much for a Corolla when I can get a Ferrari instead?"

    If these mid-range phones (cause that's what they literally are, even teh 900) had mid-range prices (the 900 does, at least on contract), they would have sold a lot more phones.

    But bringing the Titan II/Focus S at $199 contract price against iPhone 4S and top end Androids (and AT&T is getting most of the best Android devices coming out these days) just isn't going to cut it in this market.

    People care about phone specs the same way someone who doens't do anything but surf the web and use Microsoft Office will choose a similarly priced, higher spec'd Dell or HP over an eMachine.
    You aren't getting a Ferrari though. You're getting enough power to handle JIT without having a smart car.
    05-01-2012 08:37 AM
  23. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The showstopper isn't necessarily the specs, it's that the specs do not match the prices they are charging for these devices. WP7 devices have half the specs of Android devices and the new devices have worse specs than an iPhone 4S, but they're still looking for the same MSRP as Quad-Core Android phones. For why?

    It's simply people looking at them and saying "why should I pay this much for a Corolla when I can get a Ferrari instead?"

    If these mid-range phones (cause that's what they literally are, even teh 900) had mid-range prices (the 900 does, at least on contract), they would have sold a lot more phones.

    But bringing the Titan II/Focus S at $199 contract price against iPhone 4S and top end Androids (and AT&T is getting most of the best Android devices coming out these days) just isn't going to cut it in this market.

    People care about phone specs the same way someone who doens't do anything but surf the web and use Microsoft Office will choose a similarly priced, higher spec'd Dell or HP over an eMachine.


    I hope this analogy makes some sense but "specs" are a relative term. A typical gasoline engine requires a multiplicity of camshafts, valves and complex fuel injection systems to produce say 250 HP and 275 lb/ft of torque. To reach max HP requires roughly 4000 RPM and 3000 RPM for max torque. Your typical diesel engine has internal valvetrain technology from the 1950's, direct fuel injection technology from the late 1970's and produces the same HP at 2100 RPM and double the torque at 1700 RPM. In other words, your Ferrari will smoke the Ram 2500 off the line, but the Ram will carry your Ferrari in its bed after it blows a head gasket to Tony's repair shop at 80 mph and pulling a 25' Shamrock Cuddy Cabin. All the while getting 20 mpg.

    The processors, RAM, etc. that an Android needs to run effectively may be overkill on a WP7 device. There must be a reason that WP7 devices run faster and rarely freeze without the need for quad-cores, etc. (that's where the multi-valve analogy kicks in). An early 2000's Power PC Mac on OSX 10.3 ran circles around a Pentium III or IV with just a 1.25 gHz cpu and 512mb RAM compared to the Intel's 2.4 processor and 1.5 gHz RAM. For a closer comparison that involves phones, look at how smooth a Palm Pre+ runs its OS on a middling 800 mHz unit. Can't deny that webOS is the standard bearer for multi-tasking on a mobile OS and yet it's the weakest spec-wise. Overclock that Pre to 1 gig and you got yourself a real hot rod (sorry for the automotive analogy again).
    05-01-2012 10:37 PM
  24. cp2_4eva's Avatar
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    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
    05-01-2012 11:04 PM
  25. cp2_4eva's Avatar
    I hate board express. I had a long response and it was erased. I give up. Please fix this app devs.

    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
    05-01-2012 11:05 PM
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