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05-09-2012 01:19 PM
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  1. ggabriele3's Avatar
    I haven't read through the entire thread yet, but:

    the things listed in the OP are threshold issues. either misconceptions (i.e. i use itunes, and Windows Phone Connector for the mac is fine) or a potentially (hopefully) temporary situation caused by a currently small user base ("what's windows phone?" and "missing apps.")

    There are problems that I have to give them a pass on - like the 16GB limitation, screen resolution limitation, or the fact that many of my apps have critical bugs (Rdio was the most important app for my switch from iOS, and it does not function.). These get a pass, for now.

    the real problem, IMO as a concurrent iOS user, is that WP7 is riddled with first-gen-OS problems and missing features. little things that would have been barely excusable for the first iPhone, but shouldn't still be here.

    For example

    To list a few:
    - Select All.
    - "Open In..."
    - Restore from a previous device's backup.
    ....i could go on, but that's not the point. The point is there are more things that WP7 can't do that iOS can than vice versa. These inhibit adoption because most people don't want to search for hacks or wait patiently for updates. They want something that works...and their current OS works for them. The threshold of frustration is very low.

    An example: when connecting to an exchange account, WP7 doesn't like self-signed certificates. I couldn't connect to my office exchange server. It took lots of searching, but i found a solution (email myself the certificate and manually install it). I was in an ATT store the other day and heard another guy returning his phone for the same reason. To him, WP7 "didn't work" and iOS did. He was wrong, but this is how the world works.

    In order for there to be mass acceptance, the transition has to be seamless in all respects. Lots of people love the look of my phone, but there's inevitably a question of "can it do X" that i have to say "not yet" to.

    Part of the blame here may rest with the WP7 community - I have witnessed the same type of fanboyism and apologism that Apple fanboys engaged in when the first iPhone came out - the same type of "it's not a bug, it's a feature" and "why would you need to do X? i don't need it so it's not a missing feature" and "16GB should be plenty for most people" arguments that give the OS too much leeway. I also notice (particularly on the windows phone SubReddit) unconditional rejection of any criticism of the OS (just like Apple Fanboys do).

    Bear in mind: I'm a long-time iOS user, I like my new Lumia 900 and i'm keeping it as my primary phone for the foreseeable future. I have explored the four corners of iOS, and i bump into WP7's limitations pretty often. I want WP7 to succeed, but in 2012, there is a checklist of features that every OS should have in order to make the transition easy on non-techie switchers.
    taxidriver9 likes this.
    04-27-2012 07:00 AM
  2. ubizmo's Avatar
    So what's your basis for this statement? How do you know that it would make users happy by adding more color choices? Are there a ton of threads with people discussing this topic like the vibrate, the camera button from sleep, the WiFi? Its a bold statement to make and all id like to hear is the thought on this or clarifying that it's your personal preference and not everyone else's. Again, more choice takes us down that Android route and there needs to be a line.
    Customizable colors for the accent color. This is one such suggestion; there are others. I don't claim that this is a high priority item, but it's a simple thing that could easily be implemented without bloating the OS or creating unwanted complexity.

    It's really not a very bold claim at all. In fact, it's much bolder to claim that the "line" to keep us from going "down that Android route" should be drawn at accent colors. What's the basis for that claim? Can you find me a single example of a WP user expressing satisfaction at the limited number of accent colors?

    I agree that not everything needs to be customizable. For example, I've considered the matter of screen fonts. WP uses the Segoe font, and it's part of the look and feel of the OS. On my BB, I prefer a serif font to the default BB sanserif. I like the fact that I'm able to do that, but I can understand why MS might not want to give the user that option. A single font lets the Metro OS have a unified look. But since they already allow users to select accent colors, I see no reason to limit that choice to the handful of mostly neon hues now available.

    On the subject of fonts, giving the user a bit more choice in the selection of font size is another story. Since screen sizes vary, this is a matter of functionality. People who need larger type shouldn't be forced to buy larger phones.
    04-27-2012 07:35 AM
  3. mb-dape's Avatar
    ggabriele3, you are on the same track as me.

    It not about WP vs iPhone and Android, it doesnt have to be a war where the WP community tries their best to bash the other platforms to make WP look better.
    WP has to shine on its own!
    Today, april 2012, people are used to smartphones and know what they want in them and what they should be able to do with them.

    Like you I remember the first iPhone that was missing MMS, couldnt record video, no Bluetooth file transfer etc. The response from the iPhone-community was just like in these forums. "Who uses MMS?" "Buy a video cam!" "If I say you dont miss that future you dont!"

    Apple could get away with it in 2007 in the childhood of the new smartphones.

    2012 you can not.
    04-27-2012 08:06 AM
  4. sting7k's Avatar
    I haven't read through the entire thread yet, but:

    the things listed in the OP are threshold issues. either misconceptions (i.e. i use itunes, and Windows Phone Connector for the mac is fine) or a potentially (hopefully) temporary situation caused by a currently small user base ("what's windows phone?" and "missing apps.")

    There are problems that I have to give them a pass on - like the 16GB limitation, screen resolution limitation, or the fact that many of my apps have critical bugs (Rdio was the most important app for my switch from iOS, and it does not function.). These get a pass, for now.

    the real problem, IMO as a concurrent iOS user, is that WP7 is riddled with first-gen-OS problems and missing features. little things that would have been barely excusable for the first iPhone, but shouldn't still be here.

    For example

    To list a few:
    - Select All.
    - "Open In..."
    - Restore from a previous device's backup.
    ....i could go on, but that's not the point. The point is there are more things that WP7 can't do that iOS can than vice versa. These inhibit adoption because most people don't want to search for hacks or wait patiently for updates. They want something that works...and their current OS works for them. The threshold of frustration is very low.

    An example: when connecting to an exchange account, WP7 doesn't like self-signed certificates. I couldn't connect to my office exchange server. It took lots of searching, but i found a solution (email myself the certificate and manually install it). I was in an ATT store the other day and heard another guy returning his phone for the same reason. To him, WP7 "didn't work" and iOS did. He was wrong, but this is how the world works.

    In order for there to be mass acceptance, the transition has to be seamless in all respects. Lots of people love the look of my phone, but there's inevitably a question of "can it do X" that i have to say "not yet" to.

    Part of the blame here may rest with the WP7 community - I have witnessed the same type of fanboyism and apologism that Apple fanboys engaged in when the first iPhone came out - the same type of "it's not a bug, it's a feature" and "why would you need to do X? i don't need it so it's not a missing feature" and "16GB should be plenty for most people" arguments that give the OS too much leeway. I also notice (particularly on the windows phone SubReddit) unconditional rejection of any criticism of the OS (just like Apple Fanboys do).

    Bear in mind: I'm a long-time iOS user, I like my new Lumia 900 and i'm keeping it as my primary phone for the foreseeable future. I have explored the four corners of iOS, and i bump into WP7's limitations pretty often. I want WP7 to succeed, but in 2012, there is a checklist of features that every OS should have in order to make the transition easy on non-techie switchers.
    Hey man you are right on with your assessment. I feel exactly the same way. I'm hoping WP8 really steps it up another level. WP7 is not bad at all. But I feel like I am stepping back to iOS 3 era in some regards. For me it's no biggie. But for John Smith if it doesn't do even one thing the iPhone or Android can then that's it. Microsoft really needs to get in gear because iOS 6 is possibly around the corner at Apple's WWDC and Android ICS is starting to make it to more phones every week.
    04-27-2012 08:20 AM
  5. AngryNil's Avatar
    Your tabs load in the task manager, so just hold down the back button and all the tabs will show up and you can close whatever. And apps only reload if you open them by clicking on them from the home screen. They're in the same state you left them if you use the task manager. Or am I misunderstanding?
    You're right, though you should clarify that the tabs all show up when you press the tabs item on the menu in IE, not necessarily in the actual task switcher. Also, some apps will be unloaded from memory and require some time to resume if your phone doesn't have enough RAM to keep it there.
    04-27-2012 09:10 AM
  6. N8ter's Avatar
    It's been said a few times, but your thought process changes when performing tasks. iOS and Android have you thinking what then who. Basically, what do I need to do, where do I go to do it, and who is the intended 'target'? With Windows Phone, who comes first which takes a lot of steps out of the equation. The people hub is key in that aspect. Groups your people or not. Send your message/post/update. Be done. Simple.

    Also, lag and lockups are like bigfoot and the lochness monster; few have seen them, and many believe they don't even exist. My Bionic had great specs, but pinch to zoom in a browser was choppy. I tried an iPhone 4 for a month to give it a fair shake. It killed me how many presses it took to get simple stuff done. Sure, it was simple, but it was wasteful in the amount of presses. On this phone, no more than 2-3 presses to begin what I want to do. That's even cut down more when I use a live tile. Just how you do things is refreshing and just makes me want to use it more.

    I said on another post that I don't own a pc. I do it all here on the phone. Because it makes me want to.
    People Hub should be the last time people mention when they talk about WP7 advantages. It's clearly a copied feature, and it offers no advantages over the Social Hub or equivalent functionality in TW/Sense/Stock ICS devices. It even has worse Social Network integration than TouchWiz, for example.
    Last edited by N8ter; 04-27-2012 at 09:46 AM.
    04-27-2012 09:41 AM
  7. tekhna's Avatar
    People Hub should be the last time people mention when they talk about WP7 advantages. It's clearly a copied feature, and it offers no advantages over the Social Hub or equivalent functionality in TW/Sense/Stock ICS devices. It even has worse Social Network integration than TouchWiz, for example.
    Yeah, agreed that it's functionally not much different from what Android offers, but even if it was, the premise that somehow just inverting the action-flow makes it better or more efficient doesn't make any sense. It's the same set of actions, just inverted.

    It seems like there are a lot of common themes here--

    OS lock-in,
    late to the party,
    sheer ignorance of WP7's existence (the numbers I posted showed that 45% of smartphone buyers don't even know it exists, and of the 55% who do know it exists, 50% say they don't know enough to buy it),
    arguably not demonstrably better than Android, iOS, and fairly or not, needs to be,
    Some first-gen OS problems,
    The Windows name
    Very little carrier or OEM support
    04-27-2012 10:02 AM
  8. bear_lx's Avatar
    Yeah, agreed that it's functionally not much different from what Android offers, but even if it was, the premise that somehow just inverting the action-flow makes it better or more efficient doesn't make any sense. It's the same set of actions, just inverted.

    It seems like there are a lot of common themes here--

    OS lock-in,
    late to the party,
    sheer ignorance of WP7's existence (the numbers I posted showed that 45% of smartphone buyers don't even know it exists, and of the 55% who do know it exists, 50% say they don't know enough to buy it),
    arguably not demonstrably better than Android, iOS, and fairly or not, needs to be,
    Some first-gen OS problems,
    The Windows name
    Very little carrier or OEM support
    i love my windows phone. its not as popular as it should be ......YET. everyone has their own opinion, and everyone has their own preference. ive used every phone under the sun, including iphone 4s and late model dual core droids... still prefer my windows phone.
    Last edited by Bear lx; 04-27-2012 at 10:22 AM.
    04-27-2012 10:16 AM
  9. dakranii's Avatar
    And why should you even have to connect it to your computer to sync photos? iPhone and Android can auto upload them to your Dropbox in original size. WP can not. You can not even select multiple photos or "all" photos for manual uploading to Skydrive. Talking about basic functionality.
    Under the Pictures Hub settings you can set "Automatically upload to SkyDrive" to "on"
    04-27-2012 10:55 AM
  10. bear_lx's Avatar
    Under the Pictures Hub settings you can set "Automatically upload to SkyDrive" to "on"
    no point, some peopel just dont get it. and what i dont get is how they dont get it. this is OS is way easier than android and far more user friendly... how can people not know something so simple, like how to auto upload photos, or the fact that we have spotify and think that we dont?

    ignorance is bliss i guess...
    jbjtkbw007 likes this.
    04-27-2012 10:58 AM
  11. grimmethod's Avatar
    honestly we sorta do have a list of things that WP needs

    more or less:

    - notification center
    - more colors ( just for more of a custom feel i guess)
    - custom ring tunes ( for each number/txt )
    - more apps... w/e
    - BT file transfers.
    - mass storage option ( sorta useless if you know the how to use your phone properly. cause you have all the same function as mass storage )
    - save pics from bing search


    every thing else ( unless i missed one or 2 little things ) is just personal preference or people wasting air.
    By the way you can do custom ringtones and custom per contact as of mango.

    Sent from my HD7 using Board Express
    04-27-2012 11:07 AM
  12. tekhna's Avatar
    Under the Pictures Hub settings you can set "Automatically upload to SkyDrive" to "on"
    The images are compressed, are they not?
    04-27-2012 11:11 AM
  13. cme4oil's Avatar
    I'm new to WP7 and I really like it. I upgraded from a iPhone 4 to iPhone 4s about 2 months ago and after 4weeks got a Windows phone. It's my daily driver now and I don't see anything pushing me back to a iPhone or Android of which I have had both.

    Now, that being said;

    I think the best way to approach most people that don't understand feature xxx on a Windows Phone compared to a iPhone or Android is to simple and politely explain how to do what they are trying to do...

    No, "why do you need that" or "you're ignorant, we have always done that" or "why don't you know how to do that"... on and on and on..

    You have to nurture the community, don't just be like the rest, be the "best".

    So, I would like to have more than 16GB for storage on my phone. Why? Well, because i want to store more data / songs / whatever on my phone. It doesn't really matter if you don't need more, there are tons of people that DO want more. They are not idiots, or don't know how to manage space, etc. They just want more. MS should give it to them.

    Really, 16GB is fine for me, I was just making an example but this same example plays out to many other issues too.

    Don't belittle people for their ignorance, explain things / help them to understand how to do xxx on windows phone in a VERY nice way, I think that will go a lot further than saying things like "why doesn't this user know how to do xxxx"
    04-27-2012 11:13 AM
  14. socialcarpet's Avatar
    People Hub should be the last time people mention when they talk about WP7 advantages. It's clearly a copied feature, and it offers no advantages over the Social Hub or equivalent functionality in TW/Sense/Stock ICS devices. It even has worse Social Network integration than TouchWiz, for example.
    Really?

    Lets look at Social Hub.

    [YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6Jdf7OgF_Q[/YT]

    Now lets look at People Hub.

    [YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-kuMvTFoRQ[/YT]

    Now putting aside the possibility that Samsungs software may offer all the same functionality (or even more) in one way or another, do you think the look, feel and function of Samsungs solution compares favorably to WP7 at all?

    Every time I look at some Android crap like this, I am amazed at how inelegant and messy it is. I think anyone who places value on clarity and coherence and simple elegance would have a hard time making an argument for ANY Android solution over the comparable WP7 software.
    jbjtkbw007, wolf1891 and cckgz4 like this.
    04-27-2012 11:25 AM
  15. ggabriele3's Avatar
    Hey man you are right on with your assessment. I feel exactly the same way. I'm hoping WP8 really steps it up another level. WP7 is not bad at all. But I feel like I am stepping back to iOS 3 era in some regards. For me it's no biggie. But for John Smith if it doesn't do even one thing the iPhone or Android can then that's it. Microsoft really needs to get in gear because iOS 6 is possibly around the corner at Apple's WWDC and Android ICS is starting to make it to more phones every week.
    exactly - limitations might not be much for tech-savvy people, or those who choose to ignore them.

    but the transition has to be seamless - in truth, it probably has to be better than the iPhone - if they expect to draw the moms and tweens away from iOS. WP8 must be what Facebook was to Friendster.

    Ease of transition = more users
    more users = more evangelism
    more evangelism = more users
    more users = more developers, better apps, etc.
    04-27-2012 11:53 AM
  16. jbjtkbw007's Avatar
    Customizable colors for the accent color. This is one such suggestion; there are others. I don't claim that this is a high priority item, but it's a simple thing that could easily be implemented without bloating the OS or creating unwanted complexity.

    It's really not a very bold claim at all. In fact, it's much bolder to claim that the "line" to keep us from going "down that Android route" should be drawn at accent colors. What's the basis for that claim? Can you find me a single example of a WP user expressing satisfaction at the limited number of accent colors?
    I never specified that line. I cautioned against getting to that point.

    Also, as I referenced earlier, my only basis for the discussion is around what I'm seeing people expressing concern about on the forums. The majority are on the topics that I've already expressed. I see a handful at best of someone asking about more customizable colors. You want supporting information, it's in the forums itself. Not anything I'm making up.
    04-27-2012 12:08 PM
  17. ubizmo's Avatar
    The images are compressed, are they not?
    They are. You can upload without compression to SkyDrive or DropBox using the app BoxFiles for DropBox. Of course, this is manual upload, but I prefer it to auto-upload when I'm taking a lot of pictures, many of which end up deleted anyway. No need to burn the battery auto-uploading a lot of bad photos.

    I agree, however, that the auto-resizing of images to SkyDrive is a bad idea that should be dropped.

    Edit: Sorry, the BoxFiles app only lets me upload to DropBox (without compression), not to SkyDrive. It lets me view SkyDrive files but not upload. The SkyDrive app uploads to SkyDrive (manually) without compression.
    Last edited by ubizm0; 04-27-2012 at 01:13 PM.
    04-27-2012 12:12 PM
  18. jbjtkbw007's Avatar
    Now putting aside the possibility that Samsungs software may offer all the same functionality (or even more) in one way or another, do you think the look, feel and function of Samsungs solution compares favorably to WP7 at all?

    Every time I look at some Android crap like this, I am amazed at how inelegant and messy it is. I think anyone who places value on clarity and coherence and simple elegance would have a hard time making an argument for ANY Android solution over the comparable WP7 software.
    THIS

    I had to stop watching the Social Hub vid because it was so convoluted. And Sense, which I've used on a couple of phones, is ok, but again, it's in depth to the point where most users won't even begin to touch the features because it's trying to do too much. I didn't say that other's don't have similar platforms. They are just a cluster.
    04-27-2012 12:16 PM
  19. ubizmo's Avatar
    I never specified that line. I cautioned against getting to that point.
    You wrote, "Again, more choice takes us down that Android route and there needs to be a line." You wrote it as a direct response to my comments about the desirability of giving the user more color options. Anyone would understand you to mean that giving those color options to the user would be either dangerously approaching or crossing that line. Otherwise your warning was irrelevant to my post to which you were replying.

    But to make the point perfectly clear, I'll just ask this: Is there, in your opinion, any good reason to limit the number of accent colors to 11?

    Also, as I referenced earlier, my only basis for the discussion is around what I'm seeing people expressing concern about on the forums. The majority are on the topics that I've already expressed. I see a handful at best of someone asking about more customizable colors. You want supporting information, it's in the forums itself. Not anything I'm making up.
    No one has claimed that the accent colors are the dominant concern of WP users. You asked for the basis for my statement. I gave it. It's a minor issue, with an easy remedy. If MS can do something simple that will make even a small number of users happier, without compromising the overall integrity of the system, they should do it. That's the whole point in a nutshell.
    04-27-2012 12:29 PM
  20. mb-dape's Avatar
    no point, some peopel just dont get it. and what i dont get is how they dont get it. this is OS is way easier than android and far more user friendly... how can people not know something so simple, like how to auto upload photos, or the fact that we have spotify and think that we dont?

    ignorance is bliss i guess...
    Yes, like you ignore the most important thing in my post:

    "And why should you even have to connect it to your computer to sync photos? iPhone and Android can auto upload them to your Dropbox in ORIGINAL size. WP can not. You can not even select multiple photos or "all" photos for manual uploading to Skydrive. Talking about basic functionality."


    I didnt buy my Titan with the best WP camera to have my 8 MP photos resized and compressed. How hard could it be to let the user choose? Upload in original size or compressed.
    04-27-2012 01:35 PM
  21. tekhna's Avatar
    THIS

    I had to stop watching the Social Hub vid because it was so convoluted. And Sense, which I've used on a couple of phones, is ok, but again, it's in depth to the point where most users won't even begin to touch the features because it's trying to do too much. I didn't say that other's don't have similar platforms. They are just a cluster.
    That's the beauty of Android. Don't like the GUI? Change it.










    All screenshots from Android phones.
    04-27-2012 01:40 PM
  22. based_graham's Avatar
    That's the beauty of Android. Don't like the GUI? Change it.

    Click to view quoted image


    Click to view quoted image



    Click to view quoted image


    Click to view quoted image


    All screenshots from Android phones.
    I have no time to root phones. I'm sure a lot of ppl don't have time to do that as well.
    04-27-2012 01:52 PM
  23. tekhna's Avatar
    I have no time to root phones. I'm sure a lot of ppl don't have time to do that as well.
    Not a single bit of that requires root. Also, if you're on this forum posting, you have time to root. For most phones it takes 10 minutes, if that.
    04-27-2012 02:01 PM
  24. vizagdude's Avatar
    I did not go through the entire thread, so I am not sure if these points are covered.

    If MS can fix the following things for on WP... I am golden.

    - Folder options for tiles. My be not on the main screen, but, The first pan over to the right could have folder options and the next pan over can have all the Apps that we currently have.

    - Better management of Call history. Since we do not have the concept of the Fav people (which I've got used to live with), I am still not able to get over the call history. For example, for whatever reason if there are 20 calls from the same number (say my home), The number is displayed 20 times in the call history. I'd have to scroll down that much more to access the next number other than my home.

    - This one piggy backs on the one above. I'd like to have an option to select more than one to perform an action. It could be that I's like to select more than one picture to and to attach to an email or delete 'em or upload to SkyDirve, etc. I'd like to select multiple number numbers in the call history and hit delete, just like in the email interface.

    - An option to access all the toast notifications that I received. For example, when I get a message in WhatsApp and when I'm not around my device to notice it, there is no way for me to know that I've a new message in What's app, unless I look at that tile. And since it's not one of my frequently used apps, it's pinned at lest 3 scrolls below on my home page. So there were time I could not respond to messaged immediately.

    Once MS can fix the ones above or show me an alternative way to achieve the above, there is no other issues for me. The above mentioned stuff are productive issues and they are not cosmetic in nature.
    04-27-2012 02:13 PM
  25. jbjtkbw007's Avatar
    You wrote, "Again, more choice takes us down that Android route and there needs to be a line." You wrote it as a direct response to my comments about the desirability of giving the user more color options. Anyone would understand you to mean that giving those color options to the user would be either dangerously approaching or crossing that line. Otherwise your warning was irrelevant to my post to which you were replying.

    But to make the point perfectly clear, I'll just ask this: Is there, in your opinion, any good reason to limit the number of accent colors to 11?

    No one has claimed that the accent colors are the dominant concern of WP users. You asked for the basis for my statement. I gave it. It's a minor issue, with an easy remedy. If MS can do something simple that will make even a small number of users happier, without compromising the overall integrity of the system, they should do it. That's the whole point in a nutshell.
    HAHAHAHA. OK, I see what you did there. You took a generic statement that I made and invoked my personal feelings to support it to continue your argument. You took the media approach to what I said and placed meaning behind it. I got ya. OK, let's do this then.

    In my generic statement, I was warning of where this could go. PERSONALLY, I could care less whether there are 11 or 50 colors. That becomes important to the school kids that like to decorate backpacks or the car aficionados that like to accessorize to the point where they think they're going to be an extra in Fast and the Furious 10 (a franchise I personally do enjoy). I enjoy a little bit of customization, but yes, I do think you can do too much. Obviously, color choice is quite important to you as it was a main point of your post.

    Also, that same reply of mine just now answers your defining question as well. Sure, they could have made more colors, but, and I also PERSONALLY FEEL THIS WAY, that Microsoft had more important things to worry about than whether they provide you with a basic 8 color crayon box or the big 64 with the sharpener on the back.

    *NOTE-I can do this all day papi.
    04-27-2012 03:17 PM
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