05-05-2012 01:24 PM
55 123
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  1. cluberti's Avatar
    Note you can use fiddler as a proxy for your phone, which allows you to fudge the user agent string (amongst other things).
    05-03-2012 08:53 PM
  2. ninjaap's Avatar
    "We understand that web development resources are always limited as you keep up with the increasing traffic from mobile devices, and the elusive "write once, run everywhere" promise of web development has not perfectly materialized. However, with IE9 for Windows Phone 7.5, we took a big step in the direction of this promise. By sharing a codebase with IE9 for the PC, we achieved identical support for new web standards and pushed the envelope on real-world performance with industry-leading hardware acceleration. We wanted to hear about developing for IE9 on WP7.5 from web developers directly, so we decided to collect some feedback and share it on the blog."

    In other words, MS is trying to develop IE desktop mode in WP to be more like IE desktop in PCs. So if everyone agrees with this strategy, then everyone would understand why it's a bad idea to employ webkit or whatever other standards they are using for mobile mode. Instead of a web developer making one site for desktop and one for mobile, they simply have to make one for desktop. Just get rid of flash and start using the standard HTML. MS is actually trying to make it easier for everyone, if you think about it.
    eric12341 likes this.
    05-03-2012 09:19 PM
  3. thed's Avatar
    IE on WP and on the PC are the same thing. I tried cut the rope back in January on my HD7 and it worked fine.
    MS says they are the same, but they're not quite the same. Go try the acid2 test on your phone and you'll see a difference.

    I just tried cut the rope again, and it looks like it works if you select Click to cut. It doesn't work on the default, drag to cut, because again, lack of touch events support. It's a legit issue and the OP didn't just make it up.

    I'm not just some IE basher, I'm a web developer who cares about these things. I love WP, I just think MS wasn't fully honest about the browser and they have some work to do to get it up to speed.

    Sent from my HTC Trophy using Board Express
    Jrexxx likes this.
    05-04-2012 01:12 AM
  4. eric12341's Avatar
    MS says they are the same, but they're not quite the same. Go try the acid2 test on your phone and you'll see a difference.

    I just tried cut the rope again, and it looks like it works if you select Click to cut. It doesn't work on the default, drag to cut, because again, lack of touch events support. It's a legit issue and the OP didn't just make it up.

    I'm not just some IE basher, I'm a web developer who cares about these things. I love WP, I just think MS wasn't fully honest about the browser and they have some work to do to get it up to speed.

    Sent from my HTC Trophy using Board Express
    her issue has to do with the user agent coding not because of the "lack of touch events". Read the article linked above yet?
    05-04-2012 05:03 AM
  5. AngryNil's Avatar
    Would Microsoft lose out in any way by implementing compatibility with WebKit-specific tags ?
    05-04-2012 05:05 AM
  6. pjs37's Avatar
    MS says they are the same, but they're not quite the same. Go try the acid2 test on your phone and you'll see a difference.

    I just tried cut the rope again, and it looks like it works if you select Click to cut. It doesn't work on the default, drag to cut, because again, lack of touch events support. It's a legit issue and the OP didn't just make it up.

    I'm not just some IE basher, I'm a web developer who cares about these things. I love WP, I just think MS wasn't fully honest about the browser and they have some work to do to get it up to speed.

    Sent from my HTC Trophy using Board Express
    I ran the acid test just now (Acid 3) and it got a 100/100 while my iPad got the same score on Acid 2 neither browser could render it properly. I don't know what that really means as one test is obviously newer than the other.
    eric12341 likes this.
    05-04-2012 05:30 AM
  7. thed's Avatar
    her issue has to do with the user agent coding not because of the "lack of touch events". Read the article linked above yet?
    No, pretty sure this has nothing to do with user agent strings. I just tried opening the OP's page in firefox using a WP user agent string (Lumia 800) and it worked. The issue here is with the WP browser.

    Again, you don't have to take my word for this. You can try it yourself. Here's the user agent string I used:

    Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 9.0; Windows Phone OS 7.5; Trident/5.0; IEMobile/9.0; NOKIA; Lumia 800)
    05-04-2012 08:42 AM
  8. ninjaap's Avatar
    No, pretty sure this has nothing to do with user agent strings. I just tried opening the OP's page in firefox using a WP user agent string (Lumia 800) and it worked. The issue here is with the WP browser.

    Again, you don't have to take my word for this. You can try it yourself. Here's the user agent string I used:

    Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 9.0; Windows Phone OS 7.5; Trident/5.0; IEMobile/9.0; NOKIA; Lumia 800)
    Hmmmm... okay, so if it worked on with the 800, which has the exact same browser as the 900 and every other WP out there, then why doesn't it work for the 900? That doesn't make any sense if you're saying its the browsers fault.
    05-04-2012 11:06 AM
  9. thed's Avatar
    Hmmmm... okay, so if it worked on with the 800, which has the exact same browser as the 900 and every other WP out there, then why doesn't it work for the 900? That doesn't make any sense if you're saying its the browsers fault.
    It didn't work on the 800, it worked on Firefox using the 800's user agent string. Some people were saying that this website is seeing the WP user agent string and disabling functionality. My test shows that that is not the case.

    Edit: just for kicks I also tried it with the 900's UA. Same deal.

    Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 9.0; Windows Phone OS 7.5; Trident/5.0; IEMobile/9.0; NOKIA; Lumia 900)
    Last edited by thed; 05-04-2012 at 11:25 AM.
    05-04-2012 11:17 AM
  10. ninjaap's Avatar
    It didn't work on the 800, it worked on Firefox using the 800's user agent string. Some people were saying that this website is seeing the WP user agent string and disabling functionality. My test shows that that is not the case.
    Got it! Thanks for clarifying for me.

    What I don't get though, is the OP mentioned in her other post that the site used to work on her Focus. Why all of a sudden doesn't it work?
    05-04-2012 11:25 AM
  11. thed's Avatar
    Got it! Thanks for clarifying for me.

    What I don't get though, is the OP mentioned in her other post that the site used to work on her Focus. Why all of a sudden doesn't it work?
    This is the only thing I don't understand. I have no idea why it would've worked on the Focus. Maybe they used to just use html4 and javascript but then they updated the site to use html5 canvas right around the time she switched phones? It seems unlikely but I can't think of any other explanation.
    05-04-2012 12:03 PM
  12. KingCrimson's Avatar
    So that people that are using their phones can do whatever they please on the web without thinking about webkit, or html5 or whatever. Why should I be thinking about this, it should just work!

    @Se1fcr3ation, relax we're not talking about flash.:P Flash is DEAD!
    You do realize that it is in the interests of Apple/Google to have these websites optimized for WebKit and not HTML5 generically. Of course it hurts non-Webkit browsers and that's the point. The idea that Apple is an open-standards company is the most laughable thing ever. They are just about the most proprietary company ever.
    eric12341 likes this.
    05-04-2012 12:06 PM
  13. eric12341's Avatar
    It didn't work on the 800, it worked on Firefox using the 800's user agent string. Some people were saying that this website is seeing the WP user agent string and disabling functionality. My test shows that that is not the case.

    Edit: just for kicks I also tried it with the 900's UA. Same deal.

    Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 9.0; Windows Phone OS 7.5; Trident/5.0; IEMobile/9.0; NOKIA; Lumia 900)

    Seriously? Those UA string edits don't work 100% there's other ways sites identify which is which.
    05-04-2012 02:21 PM
  14. N8ter's Avatar
    You do realize that it is in the interests of Apple/Google to have these websites optimized for WebKit and not HTML5 generically. Of course it hurts non-Webkit browsers and that's the point. The idea that Apple is an open-standards company is the most laughable thing ever. They are just about the most proprietary company ever.
    You do realize that it is in the interestst of Microsoft to have the entire WWW optimized for Internet Explorer (4-7) and not HTML4 generically. Of course it hurts non-Trident browsers and that's the point. The idea that Microsoft is an open-standards company is the most laughable thing ever. They are just about the most proprietary company ever.

    See what I did there?

    As an aside. WebKit originally came from the Browser packaged with the K Desktop Environment. App Apple did was contribute a ton of changes to it to make it better. Anyone can implement a browser on WebKit and you can even use a different JavaScript engine if you want (like Google has done). WebKit is open source, and it has the kind of Marketshare IE6 had during it's height.

    It's dumb to not assume developers will target the browser engine with ~90%+ marketshare in mobile and not the one that just hit 1% well over a year after release.

    iOS
    Android
    BBOS
    WebOS
    Symbian
    Bada

    All use WebKit. Anything else is an afterthought and will be investigated on an as needed basis when it makes sense to devote the resources to doing so.

    The pain WP7 users allegedly feel is wholly Microsoft's fault, and nothing different than the pain Mac/Linux/Solaris/whatever users felt back when half the internet didn't render properly if you weren't running Internet Explorer. That lasted like a decade, and not developers are very apprehensive of doing anything "special" to support Microsoft's browsers.
    05-04-2012 02:55 PM
  15. N8ter's Avatar
    Seriously? Those UA string edits don't work 100% there's other ways sites identify which is which.
    The problem isn't the UA string, it's the browser's rendering engine. Sometimes different browsers need things done slightly differently to achieve the same results.

    Others have been trying to tell you this in a less obvious way, but that's what they're trying to say, basically.

    This is why WebKit with a Lumia 800 UA mask may work, but Trident with a i.e. Chrome UA mask won't in many cases.

    Some websites don't have conditionals based on what browser you use. They have one version that's served up to everyone. Either it works or you don't and they go back and add the conditions/modifications after issues arrive. For mobile sites it isn't worth testing on WP7 right now since so little traffic comes from those devices. Everyone else uses WebKit, sort of like how 80%+ desktop PC users just used the default IE back when.
    pjs37 likes this.
    05-04-2012 03:01 PM
  16. thed's Avatar
    Seriously? Those UA string edits don't work 100% there's other ways sites identify which is which.
    Well yes, you can use Javascript to test whether features are supported, and I guess from that you might be able to narrow down what browser you're dealing with. But that would mean they're putting in a lot of effort just to make sure their site doesn't work on WP. It makes no sense.

    It seems pretty clear to me what is happening with the OP's site. The site is using the user agent string to determine whether it's dealing with a mobile browser that supports html5. Then while it's setting up the focusing functionality for the canvas, something breaks along the way and it never gets properly set up. You can tell it's trying though because the progress bar shows up and then just freezes.

    By the way, if you look at that link you posted about the ESPN site they admit that the WP browser doesn't support touch events.

    JavaScript touch events would be a nice addition.
    [Amin] We hear you, stay tuned!
    Let me leave you with one more example. Check out this page. It's a simple tutorial for web developers to teach them how to use the html5 canvas.

    Create a Drawing App with HTML5 Canvas and JavaScript { William Malone }

    Open that up on your phone and try to draw on one of the examples on that page. It doesn't work because canvas event support is not there. It's not the fault of the developer.
    05-04-2012 03:24 PM
  17. urazilation's Avatar
    I have samsung focus. Internet explorer is a terrible browser. Cut the rope doesn't work on facebook. And most other games in facebook requires flash which WP7 is not capable of.
    Also, Engadget mobile doesn't show the comments. Unlike android browser ie doesn't have font resize option so that I have to pitch, zoom and scroll sideways continually if I want to read the comments. But, I have no problem with youtube, zune music video and metro ui.
    It is frustrating that MS didn't update the browser since mango. I wish firefox or opera would come to wp7. Other browsers from marketplace are base on ie, so they don't bring anything new to the table.
    05-04-2012 03:32 PM
  18. eric12341's Avatar
    I have samsung focus. Internet explorer is a terrible browser. Cut the rope doesn't work on facebook. And most other games in facebook requires flash which WP7 is not capable of.
    Also, Engadget mobile doesn't show the comments. Unlike android browser ie doesn't have font resize option so that I have to pitch, zoom and scroll sideways continually if I want to read the comments. But, I have no problem with youtube, zune music video and metro ui.
    It is frustrating that MS didn't update the browser since mango. I wish firefox or opera would come to wp7. Other browsers from marketplace are base on ie, so they don't bring anything new to the table.
    the comments work fine on the Engadget desktop site. Reason it doesn't work on mobile is because it's based off webkit, it's not IE's fault and it's actually the best browser.
    05-04-2012 04:16 PM
  19. eric12341's Avatar
    Well yes, you can use Javascript to test whether features are supported, and I guess from that you might be able to narrow down what browser you're dealing with. But that would mean they're putting in a lot of effort just to make sure their site doesn't work on WP. It makes no sense.

    It seems pretty clear to me what is happening with the OP's site. The site is using the user agent string to determine whether it's dealing with a mobile browser that supports html5. Then while it's setting up the focusing functionality for the canvas, something breaks along the way and it never gets properly set up. You can tell it's trying though because the progress bar shows up and then just freezes.

    By the way, if you look at that link you posted about the ESPN site they admit that the WP browser doesn't support touch events.



    Let me leave you with one more example. Check out this page. It's a simple tutorial for web developers to teach them how to use the html5 canvas.

    Create a Drawing App with HTML5 Canvas and JavaScript { William Malone }

    Open that up on your phone and try to draw on one of the examples on that page. It doesn't work because canvas event support is not there. It's not the fault of the developer.
    just tried it and it worked on my HD7.
    05-04-2012 04:25 PM
  20. thed's Avatar
    just tried it and it worked on my HD7.
    You're saying that, for example, under "Simple Drawing Canvas Demo", you can draw lines on the canvas?

    If so, I'd love to know how because it doesn't work on my phone.
    05-04-2012 04:35 PM
  21. eric12341's Avatar
    You're saying that, for example, under "Simple Drawing Canvas Demo", you can draw lines on the canvas?

    If so, I'd love to know how because it doesn't work on my phone.
    I was able to get it to react and I did some dot designs.
    05-04-2012 05:42 PM
  22. urazilation's Avatar
    the comments work fine on the Engadget desktop site. Reason it doesn't work on mobile is because it's based off webkit, it's not IE's fault and it's actually the best browser.
    I already mentioned that I have to pinch, zoom, scroll sideways to see the comments on desktop mode. If ie had text resize option like android i wouldn't mind to read on desktop but that is not the case here. IE is just a bare-bone browser with no way to customize like other major phone web browsers (opera, firefox, dolphin)
    05-04-2012 07:37 PM
  23. loribinca's Avatar
    This is the only thing I don't understand. I have no idea why it would've worked on the Focus. Maybe they used to just use html4 and javascript but then they updated the site to use html5 canvas right around the time she switched phones? It seems unlikely but I can't think of any other explanation.
    they might well have done this as they started to roll out their product. i've contacted lytro about it

    incidentally. I WAS able to get it working on my lumia and my ie9 using the lumia browsing agent - but not directly

    i did a bit of poking about inside the code and i found the actual picture gets rendered from this link which it builds when it renders the 'carousel' - i've heard people mention something called webkit - which might explain why the carousel does not work and load the image into it after it pulls up the static 'thumbnail' of the lytro picture.


    http://cdn-lfe-01.lytro.com/80657C/p...put.html5.json

    this is essentially the 'raw' picture

    feel free to try it from the lumia too

    i've emailed lytro about it to let them know there is a problem - which potentially effects those wanting to use wp7 or ie9 with html 5 so they are now aware of the issue.

    I hope they get it fixed. They told me they're looking into it. but if its indeed this thing called webkit, it might not be a simple fix for them if they even want to bother with it.

    I got my lyro yesterday and its awesome - i think i like it better than the Lumia camera :)

    here is my first lytro picture i took yesterday - hint click on the fountain to bring it into focus

    Lytro - loribinca - My First Lyro Picture ...

    I actually think that MS should bite the bullet and implement this webkit thing - just in the interests of keeping the browser market - the mindshare seems to be with apple these days like it or not, so i think they gotta play by their rules at least until they can regain some of the market - otherwise people will just ditch IE for chrome or safari - unfortunately that's not an option we have for WP7 devices - so we just end up missing out and frustrated.
    05-04-2012 10:13 PM
  24. eric12341's Avatar
    I already mentioned that I have to pinch, zoom, scroll sideways to see the comments on desktop mode. If ie had text resize option like android i wouldn't mind to read on desktop but that is not the case here. IE is just a bare-bone browser with no way to customize like other major phone web browsers (opera, firefox, dolphin)
    I don't have to do any of that to read in IE. Probably shouldn't see those comments anyway, they're very ignorant at best.

    they might well have done this as they started to roll out their product. i've contacted lytro about it

    incidentally. I WAS able to get it working on my lumia and my ie9 using the lumia browsing agent - but not directly

    i did a bit of poking about inside the code and i found the actual picture gets rendered from this link which it builds when it renders the 'carousel' - i've heard people mention something called webkit - which might explain why the carousel does not work and load the image into it after it pulls up the static 'thumbnail' of the lytro picture.


    http://cdn-lfe-01.lytro.com/80657C/p...put.html5.json

    this is essentially the 'raw' picture

    feel free to try it from the lumia too

    i've emailed lytro about it to let them know there is a problem - which potentially effects those wanting to use wp7 or ie9 with html 5 so they are now aware of the issue.

    I hope they get it fixed. They told me they're looking into it. but if its indeed this thing called webkit, it might not be a simple fix for them if they even want to bother with it.

    I got my lyro yesterday and its awesome - i think i like it better than the Lumia camera :)

    here is my first lytro picture i took yesterday - hint click on the fountain to bring it into focus

    Lytro - loribinca - My First Lyro Picture ...

    I actually think that MS should bite the bullet and implement this webkit thing - just in the interests of keeping the browser market - the mindshare seems to be with apple these days like it or not, so i think they gotta play by their rules at least until they can regain some of the market - otherwise people will just ditch IE for chrome or safari - unfortunately that's not an option we have for WP7 devices - so we just end up missing out and frustrated.
    hmm the raw picture works but the lytro does not. That clearly proves there's a problem with the site and not the browser. As far as webkit it would be harder for MS to rebuild the entire browser rather than web devs changing a small amount of code per the ESPN article linked above.
    05-04-2012 10:42 PM
  25. loribinca's Avatar
    I don't have to do any of that to read in IE. Probably shouldn't see those comments anyway, they're very ignorant at best.



    hmm the raw picture works but the lytro does not. That clearly proves there's a problem with the site and not the browser. As far as webkit it would be harder for MS to rebuild the entire browser rather than web devs changing a small amount of code per the ESPN article linked above.
    so - i just tried my link again - if i do this

    Lytro - loribinca - My First Lyro Picture ...

    it does not render - this is the regular site

    if i add /embed to then end

    Lytro, Inc - Picture Revolution

    then it will render just the picture just fine - so its something in the site that's not compatible with IE at this time and not the actual rendering of the image itself.

    weird problem eh?

    incidentally - in case people get spun up about getting a lytro camera, I will warn you the software you need to suck the pictures off the camera and post up online is mac only at this time - windows to follow later this year .. :p
    05-04-2012 11:13 PM
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