Why pay premium prices for lesser specs?

N8ter

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LOL @ "We" barely need quad core computers. Sorry, I edit audio and video all the time, and do a ton of video analysis plus transcode stuff (cause some people have Mac or *NIX systems without certain CODECs). I need all the cores I can get seeing as how software I use (like Adobe Audition CS5.5, for example) are optimized for multiple cores and more cores makes things like applying effects and the like much faster. I also need a good Graphics Card because high end GPUs can offload some tasks from the CPU, like transcoding media. Everything is faster with the better hardware, even though the OS doesn't need it - the Apps benefit greatly from it.

Android has an NDK, WP7 doesn't, so what's possible on Android may not necessarily be possible on WP7 at the moment for 3rd party developers. Android supports multiple cores Natively now, so even the OS stands to benefit going from 1 to 2 to 4 Core devices now. All new phones are coming with the latest Android version.

There are already android apps that can do things like elementary-level video analysis (Slow-Mo, Flame by Frame, etc.) and if you use it on a single core phone - even a phone with a really decent GPU and great GPU like a Hummingbird or S2 Snapdragon, the performance is obviously worse than on something like a Dual S4 or Exynos.

The tech in the dual core CPUs is better so even if the OS and apps only use 1 core of the new 4 core Exynos processor, it's still going to outperform the processor in the latest Windows phones while pulling less power and producing less heat to boot.

People are not understanding the benefits. 1 Exynos Core in the new GS3 will still outperform the processor in a Lumia 900 at single-core operations, and the GPU is so superior it isn't even worth doing a comparison there.

The cores are only a side-benefit, and they're a great benefit when you know your phone will get updated to an OS revision that supports them (like the mid-2011-to-now Samsung/HTC/Motorola phones that are almost all getting ICS). Even for single-core operations, those processors are superior to what we're getting.

So stop trying to use "Android needs dual core to run fine" when you know Android phones have been popping up "running fine" with Dual Cores before the OS even supported them, Lol. The cores aren't why they were running good. It's cause the processors were better, period, even using only 1 core they were better than previous single-core processors. Obviously, the software did improve as well, that goes without saying.

Pretty much everyone who's gone from Gingerbread to ICS via OTA update (or even hacking it onto their devices unofficially) has confirmed that the battery life and performance of the device increased as a result - even on leaked ROMs compared to super-optimized custom ROMs in many cases. It's about future proofing. Piling on the hardware now can ensure a device goes a full 2 years without feeling like a 2004 XP workstation after the first year just by virtue of that hardware + a later OS update that fully utilizes it.

If people actually understood this, people wouldn't have to keep repeating the ABOVE FACTS to them. It's getting hillarious, cause it seems to never sink in.

If Microsoft doesn't fully port Apollo to older devices, then it will explain why they have stuck to the older hardware, and in that case I'd question whether they knew they wouldn't support those devices well past Mango from the outset, especially given they're releasing new Mango devices even now which have potential to fall into that [albeit theoretical] category.
 
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mYth

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More cores does not always = better. Back when dual cores were first coming out the high end single cores ran circles around them as far as power went. The systems weren't optimized.

Having a system optimized is just as important as the hardware. That's why older macs still fare so well with current programs that require a lot of power.

Like I also said, if they had put the time and effort into single core (which is stupid I'll admit. They will need the extra cores sooner or later). They would be just as powerful as the dual and quad core we have now (for phones, not computers). But they didn't which was the right choice. It's better to get the system ready before bringing new technology to it.

The only reason it having a dual helps with apps is because you can split the load. One app on one core and the current running on another. But even that doesn't help that much. We don't have any type of true multitasking. The apps are put in the background and it lowers the pull it has on the core quite a bit.

Of course it's going to outperform them on single core tasks. But the point is, by how much? Is it worth all the extra power. At this point. No
 
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tekhna

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Of course it's going to outperform them on single core tasks. But the point is, by how much? Is it worth all the extra power. At this point. No

You obviously don't get how this works. The single-core 45 nm APQ8055 in the Lumia 900 is going to use more power and have less processing capacity than the dual core 28 nm MSM8260A in the HTC One X. 28nm chips are simply going to be more efficient and provide more processing power. Your false dichotomy doesn't even make sense.
 

xalasten

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Wow we are a passionate bunch... My personal take on it is WP7 phones do not need the quad core could etc to perform smoothly and offer a great experience.

I have had a few android phones ( Atrix and Sensation ) and with those two devices the system had a decent amount of lag and forced close crash. They both have better specs then my current Lumia 710.

Both had worse battery life for me as well.

I am far happier with my lower spec phone now because it works. I don't crash on a daily basis, I don't wait for the phone to catch up or yell at the phone to start up in under 2 minutes after a crash.

So personally I feel the specs of the phone are only a part of what makes a good phone.

As far as ICS being able to take advantage of multiple cores now that is good but 90% of the android phones in the wild now don't have and won't get ICS.

I think the OP wanted to know why lesser specced phone cost the same or more then higher specced phone and I think the answer comes from two things...1) volume of the phones being made to get best rates on parts and 2) perception...If the new WP7 or 8 phones were priced at 50% of the cost of android or apple phones people would perceive that the phone are 50% as good. You know if it cost more it must be better...ie Apple tax.

With all that said I would love to have quad core parts available for future updates and they would be one more bullet point on a specific sheet that we could defend ourselves with when we are asked why we would use a WP.

Sorry for any typos and gibberish..auto correct is a killer..
 

canesfan625

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Reading everyone comparing ARM to X86 and rant about multiple cores is hilarious. Getting all technical but leaving out the part where two cores on the same die sharing the same bus and memory isn't actually true <insert dual/quad here> core. Combining them is one of the ways they decided to get around heat issues.


I can probably find just as many or more people saying that ICS battery life is worse as someone can saying its better. What a silly metric. Some guy on a forum says...

Lets see some battery stats.

Power Using, enthusiasts, and things people mostly will never do are not proof of *needing* quad core. Even if you argue gaming a good amount of games these days are GPU centric.
 
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jbjtkbw007

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Android apparently does.

For the moment, I beg to differ. If your dual core variant beats out your quad core version, then something is wrong. (You know who you are).

How much future proofing do we need? Technology does change overnight, however, that which underpines it doesn't move as quickly for various reasons (costs, nothing currently takes advantage of it, blah blah blah). That's the reality. The PERCEPTION is that you need more to do more or in the case of Android, you need more to do more than you actually need to do. iOS and Apple show that you don't need top of the line to perform everyday tasks, and people buy into that. They force the perception down user's throats. And then when they put out a new device, it's incremental increases and not necessarily the kitchen sink. Sure, they CAN build a higher spec'ed product, but if you don't have to, why bother?
 

canesfan625

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For the moment, I beg to differ. If your dual core variant beats out your quad core version, then something is wrong. (You know who you are).

Doesn't work like that. Just because you have 4 cores doesn't mean you automagically smoke Dual.

Take a look at the S4 for example. If done right a dual core can keep up with a quad core.
 

N8ter

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Doesn't work like that. Just because you have 4 cores doesn't mean you automagically smoke Dual.

Take a look at the S4 for example. If done right a dual core can keep up with a quad core.

You have to be referring to the Tegra III, cause the Exynos outperforms the S4 in almost every way. Tegra II wasn't a top end SoC compared to Qualcomm and Samsung (Exynos), and Tegra III won't be, either. NVidia are rather lightweight competitors in that field, IMO, as far as performance is concerned.

Not sure why people keep trying to turn this into an "Android needs quad core" debate. I'll repeat myself:

The tech in the dual core CPUs is better so even if the OS and apps only use 1 core of the new 4 core Exynos processor, it's still going to outperform the processor in the latest Windows phones while pulling less power and producing less heat to boot.

Has nothing to do with Android. The only reason to use old hardware is cause you got a good deal on it (i.e. you can raise your profit margins up higher) because there are only drawbacks to doing so when better hardware is available.

The fact that anyone thinks the OS performs fine on current hardware is not a factor. If it performs fine now, it can perform better on the newer hardware while allowing for more demanding games/apps and delivering higher uptimes (battery life).

The only time there's a legitimate reason to use an older SoC is when you need to support certain technologies. For example, Samsung's Exynos SoCs do not support LTE so US carriers opt for the S4 instead, which does. In that case, the rationale is clear and obvious. In the case of WP7 devices, there is no rationale behind it. "Runs just fine" isn't rationale, cause clearly Android and iOS run just fine on Single/Dual Core CPUs but they still aren't keeping their phone internals in the stone age "just cause."
 
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fatclue_98

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Come on guys, it's obvious we each have our own opinions and it doesn't seem likely anybody's gonna man up and say "hey so and so, I think you may be right. I never looked at it that way". What do you all say we go to the Android boards and start some stuff just for ****z and giggles?

Sent from my Venue Pro using Board Express
 

tekhna

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You have to be referring to the Tegra III, cause the Exynos outperforms the S4 in almost every way. Tegra II wasn't a top end SoC compared to Qualcomm and Samsung (Exynos), and Tegra III won't be, either. NVidia are rather lightweight competitors in that field, IMO, as far as performance is concerned.

Not sure why people keep trying to turn this into an "Android needs quad core" debate. I'll repeat myself:



Has nothing to do with Android. The only reason to use old hardware is cause you got a good deal on it (i.e. you can raise your profit margins up higher) because there are only drawbacks to doing so when better hardware is available.

The fact that anyone thinks the OS performs fine on current hardware is not a factor. If it performs fine now, it can perform better on the newer hardware while allowing for more demanding games/apps and delivering higher uptimes (battery life).

The only time there's a legitimate reason to use an older SoC is when you need to support certain technologies. For example, Samsung's Exynos SoCs do not support LTE so US carriers opt for the S4 instead, which does. In that case, the rationale is clear and obvious. In the case of WP7 devices, there is no rationale behind it. "Runs just fine" isn't rationale, cause clearly Android and iOS run just fine on Single/Dual Core CPUs but they still aren't keeping their phone internals in the stone age "just cause."

All of this.
Frankly it amazes me that more OEMs haven't taken up WP7. They can pass off second-rate hardware as "new" and take enormous profits from using 2010 tech in 2012 phones.
 

cp2_4eva

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Lol. That would be nice, but we would be as bad as them.coming over to troll is here like I think they already do. Lol. Won't mention any names, but you folks know a few as well.

This thread got a bit off topic, but there was alot of great information and opinions on this thread. Glad that for the most part its been civil. I still don't understand the whole pricing scheme of things, but I guess it's not for me to understand. Simply buy what I like.

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
 

cckgz4

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All of this.
Frankly it amazes me that more OEMs haven't taken up WP7. They can pass off second-rate hardware as "new" and take enormous profits from using 2010 tech in 2012 phones.

See the iPhone 4. Speaking of which, you reminded me of something.
 

canesfan625

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android can't even run well on four cores, they pay for hardware that isn't utilized, we pay for a grand hardware/software mesh.

Androids problems are not hardware related. The most recent discussions around the matter center around software constraints. The most recent has been arguing back and forth among the camps about UI threads.
 

cp2_4eva

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Of software is the issue then Google doesn't have their priorities straight. That's a problem...kinda. They lead the market right now despite the laggy fragmentation issue. And it doesn't seem to be getting much better either. WP7 with lesser specs runs better overall. At the same time it doesn't have as many capabilities as android either. So in essence we are paying as much for the hardware, its the user experience that counts. I can't wait to see what they will charge for a WP8 device. And I wonder how low WP7 devices prices will drop.

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
 

canesfan625

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Of software is the issue then Google doesn't have their priorities straight. That's a problem...kinda. They lead the market right now despite the laggy fragmentation issue. And it doesn't seem to be getting much better either. WP7 with lesser specs runs better overall. At the same time it doesn't have as many capabilities as android either. So in essence we are paying as much for the hardware, its the user experience that counts. I can't wait to see what they will charge for a WP8 device. And I wonder how low WP7 devices prices will drop.

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

google has no incentive to change it. They are already slowly loosing developers. The change would require apps to be rewritten and people are still buying android all the same.
 

cp2_4eva

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google has no incentive to change it. They are already slowly loosing developers. The change would require apps to be rewritten and people are still buying android all the same.

The only incentive I see for them changing this is to stay above the rest, but like you said, people are still buying into it and swearing by it. You can't convince some avid Android users otherwise because there ain't many viable choices in their eyes. Humans are creatures of habit. They like what they have right now and sometimes don't like to admit that something else is better or has other strengths. I used to use android not too long ago. Nice devices, but there were too many moments when the comparison game came up and I'm telling the other person, "Wait, it's taking too long to load.....oh man force close."
 

N8ter

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google has no incentive to change it. They are already slowly loosing developers. The change would require apps to be rewritten and people are still buying android all the same.

Facts to back up the claim that Android is slowly losing developers, as top apps are moving over from iOS to android More and More these days?

Or do you mean college kid basement coders? Those don't really matter in the grand scheme of things since a lot of the cruft in the marketplaces come from those "Developers" who really don't develop much that is of use to consumers or businesses. I'm pretty sure Google wouldn't mind getting rid of those. Android attracted a lot of those because you can use any phone to develop with, unlike WP7 and iOS.
 

canesfan625

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Facts to back up the claim that Android is slowly losing developers, as top apps are moving over from iOS to android More and More these days?

Or do you mean college kid basement coders? Those don't really matter in the grand scheme of things since a lot of the cruft in the marketplaces come from those "Developers" who really don't develop much that is of use to consumers or businesses. I'm pretty sure Google wouldn't mind getting rid of those. Android attracted a lot of those because you can use any phone to develop with, unlike WP7 and iOS.

Developers losing interest in Android | News | TechRadar

Android losing developer interest but could beat out Facebook

Android app developers losing interest | Uberphones

Its all just variants on the report from the IDC that Android interest is eroding.
 

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