Why WP has such slow growth
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LOL @ comparing the original iPhone to the iPhone 4S
the whole argument was they haven't changed much from the last one. The iPhone 4S isn't that much different from the iPhone 4
The big change is from the 3GS to the 4S, which are what? yup, you guessed it! 2 years apart. LOL
the whole argument was they haven't changed much from the last one. The iPhone 4S isn't that much different from the iPhone 4
The big change is from the 3GS to the 4S, which are what? yup, you guessed it! 2 years apart. LOL
baseballbert
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AngryNil
New member
The big change is from the 3GS to the 4, which are what? Yup, you guessed it! 1 year apart. LOL
You cannot be expected to be taken seriously when you're trying to desperately to rewrite history.
Even then the 4S has more technological advancements in it compared to the iPhone 4 than the Focus S has compared to the Focus, or Lumia 900 compared to the Lumia 710/800.
To the average person they see the iphone 4 and the iphone 4S the exact same. They see no difference
You know what is the genius part about Apple?
While all of you sit here and argue about " specs " all day, everyday, Apple doesn't even advertise specs. When was the last time you seen a commercial about the iphone touting it's processor like they do for android? Apple doesn't even disclose the clock speeds and details of it's specs. Even the tech sites don't know until it's put under benchmarks. When they advertise the iphone it's always about what the OS or apps can do for you, show off it's camera features and siri. There's never been a commercial touting specs. You know why? cause THE AVERAGE PERSON REALLY DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT SPECS. That right there is what's genius about apple and the iphone
From the moment people see the commercial, to the moment people buy and use the phone, it was all made " easy " for the consumer. That's what is appealing about the iphone to the average person. The fact that the iphone doesn't confuse them with all this spec talk. It just does what it does, and does it in a simple way for anybody to pick up and use
At the end, It's always about the " end user experience "
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AngryNil
New member
Incredibly stupid argument. Your measure proves nothing other than a big change existed, as opposed to consistent iteration. The original measure by Los was about how long ago the last major change was, which actually has a practical application.
So let's say I released minor annual updates to my product for a decade, did a big overhaul of it one year, then followed up with another decade of minor annual updates. By your logic, I somehow qualify as a winner because I overhauled my product in "a year".
Yeah, you're running out of material. Might want to put that tin-foil thinking cap back on.
fatclue_98
Retired Moderator
A lot of back and forth on this topic so let's summarize once and for all.
(1) According to Los, Apple perpetuates their dominance by making few, if any, changes to their system to keep the user experience as the top priority. I have to agree. When I say dominance, I mean one device sells more units than any other. Android has oodles more devices, but no individual phone outsells the iPhone.
(2) Windows Phone has to shake off the stigma of Windows Mobile to lure customers back. End user experience is key. Forget specs, it's all about "what can you do for me". UPS has that great tag line - what can brown do for you.
(3) Android and iOS did not have to abandon a previous OS and pull a phoenix. MS has its work cut out for them. It's unrealistic to think they will be at the level of the other two in just 2 years when the others have had a 3-5 year head start.
If anybody has something really new or Earth-shattering to contribute, please do. If not, let's just move on. Let's go Heat!!
(1) According to Los, Apple perpetuates their dominance by making few, if any, changes to their system to keep the user experience as the top priority. I have to agree. When I say dominance, I mean one device sells more units than any other. Android has oodles more devices, but no individual phone outsells the iPhone.
(2) Windows Phone has to shake off the stigma of Windows Mobile to lure customers back. End user experience is key. Forget specs, it's all about "what can you do for me". UPS has that great tag line - what can brown do for you.
(3) Android and iOS did not have to abandon a previous OS and pull a phoenix. MS has its work cut out for them. It's unrealistic to think they will be at the level of the other two in just 2 years when the others have had a 3-5 year head start.
If anybody has something really new or Earth-shattering to contribute, please do. If not, let's just move on. Let's go Heat!!
Agreed. I'm not into the whole "spec" thing like I was when intel and amd were duking it out to see who could hit 1ghz first. The only reason droid lists it's spec is because every time a new OS update is put out, it requires faster hardware. I could not care less how much ram my windows phone has as long as it does everything I want. If that means 512mb then so be it. Why have a Ferrari if you only need a Fiat? If you're really hung up on specs, go buy a droid phone.
fatclue_98
Retired Moderator
Yeah, ok. Show up on South Beach with a Fiat, you'll be going home alone. But I agree with the rationale, 512 works fine for me. Bad choice of car analogy though.
Heh, I'd rather have that $250,000 showing in my savings account on my bank statement than sitting in traffic with it
. But point taken, bad analogy. I couldn't think of any other Italian car that was average other than a Fiat.I disagree with this assessment. While it is probably less likely that Microsoft will be on the same level as Google or Apple in the next two years, it isn't "unrealistic". 2 years is a very long time in technological (and esp smartphone) terms. Almost everybody will have replaced their phone in 2 years. So its not "unrealistic" at all for Microsoft to be on the same level as the others if they can find an effective sticking point.
The problem is that Microsoft hasn't found this sticking point since WP has been released. I'm not about to pretend that Microsoft has done a great job giving incentives for consumers to swap before the "Smoked" campaign or that Windows Phone is growing at an acceptable rate. Apollo and Windows 8 integration might be Microsoft's smoking gun, though. Who knows?
If they do find the solution in the near term, they should be able to attain reasonably large market share by 2014. Again, 2 years is a long time in smartphone terms.
You accuse other's of selectively picking years of transition and then go on to selectively pick a year yourself! The iPhone 4 and 4s are the more current models and the iPhone 4 and 3GS are older models so the latter is obviously less reflective of Apple's current track record. Obviously you shouldn't be expected to be taken seriously by accusing someone of doing something, and then doing it yourself to an even more exaggerate degree.
The impartial thing to do is to average the change between the years... so average 3GS to 4 and 4 to 4S's change. Still doing this, it does NOT reflect well on the iPhone's evolution vs Windows Phone, Android, or any OS. Seriously, nothing changes about their phones at all! Their iPhone 3GS to iPhone 4 is less change than what every other competitor does in a normal year. The form factor is exactly alike and has minor tweaks.
The Lumia series were all released in Gen 7.5. That comparison is a fallacy. There is no evolution because it's been less than a year between the release of the 800 and the 900 and we're NOT in a new generation of Windows Phones! Non-Apple companies make more than one model of phone in the same generation. That's a well known fact.
Also, there are drastic technological changes from the Focus to the Focus S. Let me just go over the changes between the devices to show you how unsubstantiated your claims are:
iPhone 4 vs iPhone 4s
- SAME "Retina" display (w/ SAME resolution)
- SAME 3.5" form factor, SAME dimensions
- IMPROVED CPU and GPU (A4 vs A5)
- IMPROVED 8 MP Camera (vs 5 MP camera)
- TWEAKS in the OS
Focus vs Focus S
- IMPROVED Super AMOLED + display (vs Super AMOLED) (w/ SAME resolution)
- IMPROVED 4.3" form factor, THINNER dimensions
- IMPROVED CPU and GPU (Snapdragon S2 vs S1)
- IMPROVED 8 MP Camera (vs 5 MP camera)
- NEW front facing camera
- TWEAKS in the OS
When someone takes the time to spell out all the changes in features, it is clear why you are just very, very wrong.
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fatclue_98
Retired Moderator
I think you misunderstood the intent of my post. Android & iOS could make strides because they didn't have a "failure" to deal with. Don't get me wrong, I love WM6.1 but I feel I'm in the minority. It has been easier for them because of the early trailblazers who set the standards for smartphones.
Two years is probably not enough time for MS to distance themselves from Windows Mobile. Being one of the first players in the smartphone arena has had its disadvantages. Don't believe me? Look at Palm, they had to do the same thing with webOS after so many years of Palm OS. How'd that turn out? Nokia is in the same boat because the majority of "regular" people think of Symbian and automatically assume the 900 is one of them. Nokia has too many phones from the past with 9's in their model names that add to this.
Palm didn't have the time or money to re-invent themselves in the face of the Android & iOS onslaught and Nokia is still TBA. Microsoft has the deep pockets and an all new suite of OS's coming down the pike that may just be able to pull it off.
I disagree with this assessment as well. There has been a pervasive opinion on these boards that somehow, "Windows" and "Microsoft" are negative brands and that they are a detriment to Windows Phones sales. This cannot be further from the truth. I find "Windows" and "Microsoft" to be extremely strong brands that can only propel Windows Phone.
The explanation is simple. The average consumer merely isn't aware of nearly as many things that tech enthusiasts are. Here are a list of things you think the average consumer might know; but, really, they are completely clueless: "operating system", "iOS", "Android", "Windows Mobile", "Symbian", "Palm/WebOS". Here are some things they do know: "Windows, iPhone, Google, Nokia, Blackberry.")
Even when I ask my parents or teachers or even some teenagers what "Windows" or an "operating system" is, they have no clue. Try it now (seriously)! They might know the "Windows" brand; but, they have no idea of what "Windows" actually is, which is completely hilarious. Because of their complete lack of awareness of Windows Mobile and because the smartphone market was minuscule at the time of Windows Mobile, Microsoft has nothing to "start over" from. Most consumers are just flat out clueless.
Now here is why everyone is wrong about the Windows brand. Say I were to offer someone on the street a free computer. Say he had the option of a Windows computer or Solaris computer. Which do you think he would choose? There you go! We've just established that "Windows OS" is better than complete obscurity. (As a matter of fact, when Dell first tried to push Ubuntu, many consumers returned their computers on the realization that their computers "weren't Windows".
Why does a consumer opt for a "Windows" device? This has NOTHING to do with our actual perception of Windows, whether we like it or hate it. Windows evokes a strong sense of familiarity and standardization. Basically, consumers will buy anything with Windows plastered on top of it. That is what you call an extremely strong brand. (This is how Windows Mobile sold, btw, and not because of any of its merits.)
Now if consumers were somehow mislead that Windows Phone was actual Windows OS, do you think they'll bite? The answer is that many confused consumers will definitely bite!!! It's an issue of familiarity and standardization. The issue is that Microsoft has changed Windows Phone too much from conventional Windows OS and hasn't made an active effort before Windows 8 to show consumers that Windows Phone IS Windows. If consumers were to ever become convinced of this fact, Microsoft would instantly gain a huge portion of marketshare.
For this reason, Microsoft can easily overtake Android. (I find that the iPhone consumer base is devout; but the Android consumer base is relatively clueless and easy game. Android is as good as Linux on early netbooks and tolerated due to lack of alternative.)
Microsoft shouldn't de-emphasize its Windows roots. Rather, it needs to push them hard and THAT is what they'll be doing with Apollo. The issue now is merely getting consumers to associate smartphones and tablets with conventional computer (laptops and desktops). Once this happens, capitalizing on the Windows brand will be extremely easy. That's also why for a long time, Microsoft just wasn't that concerned about the success of Windows Phone.
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fatclue_98
Retired Moderator
I think we both offer up some good points and I thank you for your civility. That being said, let's go back to the OP's query. If Windows, in all its iterations, is such a strong brand, then why the lackluster growth? I agree that Windows is as much a household name as Coke but in the mobile world, not as much. Let's not bring the kids into this discussion because they're probably not even aware there was ever a 2G iPhone once, let alone Palm OS or Windows Mobile.
I strongly believe that enterprise is going to be key for WP7 because IT managers are very reluctant to go with iOS because of compatibility issues with MS equipment and RIM's on life support. Android is too "unsafe" and that's the target MS has to hit. Of course enterprise users were the most sought out during WM's heyday, hence my position.
Because Windows isn't a strong brand! Windows is what you put up with, because you have to. I'm not say that's the reality of Windows, Windows 7 is excellent. The brand is enormous. But not loved. There's a difference. See, for example, http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/b...fades-into-the-sunset-digital-domain.html?hpw
"IF you own a Windows-based PC, you may like the operating system well enough. Or you may merely tolerate it, if you give it much thought at all. But whatever your feeling, ?love? probably isn?t the word that immediately comes to mind to describe it.
I bring this up because Microsoft acts as if its customers have a strong affection for all things Windows. For the last seven years, it has tried to make Windows the anchor brand for software that is not an operating system."
The fact is that Windows itself is not compelling to anyone. It's the software you use because you have to, and even then you don't think about it.
"Even if the services had been closely tied to Windows, the public didn?t perceive the brand as having the attributes that would serve associated products well. Professor Batra says, ?Our brand-love research shows that loved brands reflect and symbolize deeply held personal values, such as Apple does for creativity,? he says. ?Windows and Live each lack this type of brand strength.?
The fact is that Microsoft has tried really hard to be warm and fuzzy and in your home with Windows, and failed miserably. I think Windows is a boat-anchor, and they would have been better off naming it something else. I don't think though that that can account for it's failure. It's mostly about perception. I was in a young, chique coffee shop this morning, and I didn't see a single non-Apple laptop of the 15 or so laptops there. Half a dozen iPads. A few Android phones, but mostly iPhones. Apple has very successfully sold itself as young and chique, products for beautiful people, and Microsoft still looks stodgy and, well, like a PC.
Microsoft could definitely learn from Apples marketing department. Apple makes solid products but their marketing is sheer genius.
Windows 8 tablet will drive up the windows 8 phone market.
I know at least 100 people in my company ready to get one....i know people outside of work who want one.
This is a no brainer.
Then when they associate tablet to phone....its over with the integration.
I know at least 100 people in my company ready to get one....i know people outside of work who want one.
This is a no brainer.
Then when they associate tablet to phone....its over with the integration.
jbjtkbw007
New member
Went to a get together last night at a friend's house. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE there had a version of the iPhone. Of course, perfect opportunity to show off my Lumia. I think that thing got passed around for about an hour. Then, someone showed up with another Windows Phone (the name slips me, but it's Verizon's phone) and we started chatting it up. Talked about Zune a lot. I even provided the tunes via Zune on the pc. 2 people signed up that night and we got some of those iPhone users to seriously consider the OS.
All it takes is a little education. It does go a long way.
All it takes is a little education. It does go a long way.
fatclue_98
Retired Moderator
Apple's marketing is sheer genius because of who they target. You wouldn't market the same way to a different demographic. I stand by my statement that MS needs to go after the enterprise crowd, you know, the stodgy PC-types. In this economic climate the only ones who really have disposable income are the young kids who live at home and have no real responsibilities such as mortgages and children. We all like what's new and hip and we do whatever we need to do to get it. I remember how cool it was to have a Walkman in college back in 1983 (don't laugh they were chick magnets).
Right now this discussion is a moot point until W8 & Apollo come out. I think it will be a huge success before it's all said and done IF they integrate the desktop OS & the phones. Based on my time with Consumer Preview on my tablet, that's a done deal.
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