07-09-2012 09:12 PM
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  1. snowmutt's Avatar
    Interesting controversy.

    Anyway, the relentless fast march forward of the mobile industry that constantly leaves big victims in its wake is a very interesting and important subject, and I still say that in Tomi's articles you can read interesting things about that.

    Likewise of the dangers of voice calls over data traffic like of course Skype can do for mobile carriers. This threatens one of their core sources of income, and it is hardly surprising that they don't welcome things like Skype phones with open arms. Whether they actively and directly boycott them is another, but still interesting question, if you ask me.
    Indeed it is an interesting question.

    But for the last few years "cell phones" have gotten used less and less for phones and more for it's mobile tools. That is why even when someone goes into a carrier for a feature phone, still very popular in my central Illinois area which is very depressed and jobs are scarce, they get pushed to a smart phone or told they need the data plan for their device. Which, of course, they don't. That is why they want a feature phone or a flip phone in the first place. But without the data plan, carriers do not make their money.

    But a full scale "boycott" of SKYPE?? Which is already HUGE on Android, with Facetime and Tango also available on other OS's? Doesn't pass the smell test....
    Bailey HD7 likes this.
    07-04-2012 09:23 AM
  2. rbrunner's Avatar
    Allow me to add a little background info: The subject of the controversy, the article as linked by the OP on Bright Side Of News*, is a copy. The original is on Ahonen's main site here:

    Communities Dominate Brands: What Happens Now to Nokia Lumia and Windows Phone, After Microsoft Throws Nokia Under the Bus? (Updated)
    07-04-2012 09:46 AM
  3. Johnny Tremaine's Avatar
    It's probably just a little premature to predict Nokia's demise, don't you think?
    No, it isn't. Anyone that's familiar with Nokia's situation can see that the company as a whole, not just the smart phone division, is up the creek without a paddle. Do we need to run down again where Nokia stands?

    -Their corporate bonds are rated junk status, by all three ratings agencies. This means it is very difficult for the company to borrow money to fund to day to day operations. Also, once ratings agencies cast doubt on your ability to repay debts, suppliers, like chip manufacturers and LCD manufacturers, start demanding payment up front.
    Not good.

    -Nokia has only about three financial quarters of cash left on hand, about Five Billion Dollars. This wouldn't be so much of a problem except that, their burn rate, the amount of cash they spend, is about a Billion Dollars per quarter.

    -Their stock has lost 90% of its value over the last few years, 60% of it within the past two years. It's back to 1996 levels before Nokia ever started building smart phones.

    -They're shedding employees left and right, and their more talented employees are bailing out of the company.

    -They counted on Lumia sales to lift them up during the Symbian transition....except that didn't happen, as Nokia just lowered guidance, and warned of MORE losses for Q3 and Q4.

    -And right now, Nokia is an acquisition target for anyone from hedge funds to Samsung, Google, any Chinese OEM or even Microsoft.

    So yeah, Nokia is hosed. They're done, it's over.
    07-04-2012 05:26 PM
  4. based_graham's Avatar
    No, it isn't. Anyone that's familiar with Nokia's situation can see that the company as a whole, not just the smart phone division, is up the creek without a paddle. Do we need to run down again where Nokia stands?

    -Their corporate bonds are rated junk status, by all three ratings agencies. This means it is very difficult for the company to borrow money to fund to day to day operations. Also, once ratings agencies cast doubt on your ability to repay debts, suppliers, like chip manufacturers and LCD manufacturers, start demanding payment up front.
    Not good.

    -Nokia has only about three financial quarters of cash left on hand, about Five Billion Dollars. This wouldn't be so much of a problem except that, their burn rate, the amount of cash they spend, is about a Billion Dollars per quarter.

    -Their stock has lost 90% of its value over the last few years, 60% of it within the past two years. It's back to 1996 levels before Nokia ever started building smart phones.

    -They're shedding employees left and right, and their more talented employees are bailing out of the company.

    -They counted on Lumia sales to lift them up during the Symbian transition....except that didn't happen, as Nokia just lowered guidance, and warned of MORE losses for Q3 and Q4.

    -And right now, Nokia is an acquisition target for anyone from hedge funds to Samsung, Google, any Chinese OEM or even Microsoft.

    So yeah, Nokia is hosed. They're done, it's over.
    Not even close from over.

    What would I do if I was running Nokia

    1st move is to rebrand Nokia Lumia and re-market it as chaper pay-as-you-go phones with 0$ on contract

    2nd is to release a new brand name for the Nokia WP8 launch

    3rd adapt Windows RT to make some slick tablets and ultraportable laptops with 3G support

    I would completely change the branding change the culture unfortunately to do that you need to cut employees but its like starting from scratch again.

    I would utilize MS as much as I can and aim to be the premier MS OEM
    07-04-2012 05:57 PM
  5. AngryNil's Avatar
    it is hardly surprising that they don't welcome things like Skype phones with open arms
    Except that Microsoft unveiled that Skype simply can integrate with the OS once installed as an app, and any other VoIP service can do the same. AT&T can bundle in their VoIP service with identical integration, and not pre-install Skype. How is that bad for the carriers? They don't get such treatment on iOS, where they aren't allowed to brand anything.

    I find this debacle to be absolutely baseless, just another "industry expert" who actually doesn't know a thing about the situation running his mouth off.
    snowmutt likes this.
    07-04-2012 08:47 PM
  6. tekhna's Avatar
    Not even close from over.

    What would I do if I was running Nokia

    1st move is to rebrand Nokia Lumia and re-market it as chaper pay-as-you-go phones with 0$ on contract

    2nd is to release a new brand name for the Nokia WP8 launch

    3rd adapt Windows RT to make some slick tablets and ultraportable laptops with 3G support

    I would completely change the branding change the culture unfortunately to do that you need to cut employees but its like starting from scratch again.

    I would utilize MS as much as I can and aim to be the premier MS OEM
    Nokia is dead, as we know it. And this is just one more nail in the coffin-- Finnish government won't buy Nokia shares: PM - Business - US business - Aviation - msnbc.com
    The argument had long been that the Finnish government wouldn't let Nokia die, but it appears they're fine with it.

    The 2-dollar a share death-march is on. At 2.03 a share now pre-market.
    07-05-2012 08:12 AM
  7. snowmutt's Avatar
    Nokia is dead, as we know it. And this is just one more nail in the coffin-- Finnish government won't buy Nokia shares: PM - Business - US business - Aviation - msnbc.com
    The argument had long been that the Finnish government wouldn't let Nokia die, but it appears they're fine with it.

    The 2-dollar a share death-march is on. At 2.03 a share now pre-market.
    I will agree with one point: Nokia is dead as we have known them.

    Problem was, Nokia was Dead Company Walking before the hiring of Elop and the "burning platform" Memo. Despite being the largest manufacturer in the world, they were bogged down in debt, layers of competing OS developments (Symbian VS Meego VS their luxery brand whose name I forget), infighting, bloated repetitive jobs, and waste everywhere they turned. They could not continue on the path they were on. Consider Nokia as the real estate market of a few years ago: Everyone thought they gravy train would last, but the bubble was going to burst.

    Elop made some serious mistakes, one of them was being too honest. His Burning platform speech and public revelations put Nokia in the spotlight for the wrong reasons. Symbian should have never been completely scratched- it was Nokia's bread and butter. Keeping a line or two going until WP 8 came out (remember, Nokia was saying "wait for our WP 8 devices", even before their WP 7 line was released) would have been the best decision. But Nokia is NEVER going back to what it was. But it can still be succesful: WP gives them a chance to enter developing markets and high end ones at a fraction of the R&D costs, thereby giving them a chance to be more profitable per handset sold.

    Microsoft will invest heavily to keep Nokia above water. They have tons of advantages with Nokia as a partner that they will not have as part of their company. I am betting on them. I would buy Nokia stock for the long term investment.
    07-05-2012 09:32 AM
  8. socialcarpet's Avatar
    Nokia is certainly in dire straits these days, but I do hope the doomsayers are wrong. I still think it's just a wee be early to be saying with 100% confidence that Nokia is done.
    If so I think it would be a real tragedy for Windows Phone and smartphones in general. Right now Nokia and Apple are the only smartphone manufacturers out there that aren't Asian copycats. A great deal of the innovation in design comes from those two. If we lose Nokia, we've lost something big. A loss of one of the Korean or Chinese companies would be meaningless. Not to be harsh, but they contribute little but knockoffs of each others products, it's even more true for Windows Phone where all the do is give us Android re-treads.

    One of the reasons Microsoft partnered with Nokia, aside from the fact that Nokia was in need of, and ready to commit 100% to a new OS, is that Nokia actually designs beautiful things. Beautiful in that old-school Dieter Rams style of clean European design which you just aren't going to get out of Korea or China.

    Oh, they'll try and imitate it, in fact I'm sure there are already craptastic Lumia 800/900 clones running some moldy old version of Android on the Chinese mainland.

    But forget any truly unique designs of that level of creativity and beauty coming out of Asia in the future. If Nokia's done, then so is Windows Phone's ability to differentiate its hardware from the 10,000 other plasticky generic Android phones out there, you know the same stale designs which failed to get Windows Phone noticed for the last 2 years before Nokia came along?

    I'd like to believe that Microsoft understands this. In fact, I'm pretty sure they do considering their Surface tablet prototype looks like it came directly out of the Nokia design studio, it even uses the same color palette as the Lumia/N9. I don't think that was a coincidence. If Nokia folds, Apple would be the only one left making original designs that are worthy of being on display in MoMA and Apple only designs iPhones and they only do it once every few years. We'd be headed for the dark ages of boring Asian copycat Android crap when it comes to phone design.

    My opinion is that what's good for Nokia is good for Windows Phone. I see ample evidence that Microsoft is thinking the same way, so why don't we wait and see what happens. I for one, am not looking forward to a future of being stuck in the plastic doldrums with HTC and Samsung if Nokia doesn't make it. :dry
    snowmutt likes this.
    07-05-2012 05:07 PM
  9. AKA Preluva's Avatar
    Nokia is certainly in dire straits these days, but I do hope the doomsayers are wrong. I still think it's just a wee be early to be saying with 100% confidence that Nokia is done.
    If so I think it would be a real tragedy for Windows Phone and smartphones in general. Right now Nokia and Apple are the only smartphone manufacturers out there that aren't Asian copycats. A great deal of the innovation in design comes from those two. If we lose Nokia, we've lost something big. A loss of one of the Korean or Chinese companies would be meaningless. Not to be harsh, but they contribute little but knockoffs of each others products, it's even more true for Windows Phone where all the do is give us Android re-treads.

    One of the reasons Microsoft partnered with Nokia, aside from the fact that Nokia was in need of, and ready to commit 100% to a new OS, is that Nokia actually designs beautiful things. Beautiful in that old-school Dieter Rams style of clean European design which you just aren't going to get out of Korea or China.

    Oh, they'll try and imitate it, in fact I'm sure there are already craptastic Lumia 800/900 clones running some moldy old version of Android on the Chinese mainland.

    But forget any truly unique designs of that level of creativity and beauty coming out of Asia in the future. If Nokia's done, then so is Windows Phone's ability to differentiate its hardware from the 10,000 other plasticky generic Android phones out there, you know the same stale designs which failed to get Windows Phone noticed for the last 2 years before Nokia came along?

    I'd like to believe that Microsoft understands this. In fact, I'm pretty sure they do considering their Surface tablet prototype looks like it came directly out of the Nokia design studio, it even uses the same color palette as the Lumia/N9. I don't think that was a coincidence. If Nokia folds, Apple would be the only one left making original designs that are worthy of being on display in MoMA and Apple only designs iPhones and they only do it once every few years. We'd be headed for the dark ages of boring Asian copycat Android crap when it comes to phone design.

    My opinion is that what's good for Nokia is good for Windows Phone. I see ample evidence that Microsoft is thinking the same way, so why don't we wait and see what happens. I for one, am not looking forward to a future of being stuck in the plastic doldrums with HTC and Samsung if Nokia doesn't make it. :dry
    If Nokia is in as bad a shape as they say then MS has only two choices:

    1. Buy Nokia and (I hate to do this) gut it out. Keep only the parts needed for production of the Surface and W8 phones, everything else gets S--- canned! Of course there will be a Surface phon-let/padfone ;) And this needs to happen like yesterday or it will end up like HP & Palm. As for Nokia's designs... Meh! I've never owned one and if they were so awesome then people would be buying there phones but there not.

    2. MS cuts there ties with Nokia and goes looking for another partner.
    07-05-2012 06:00 PM
  10. Johnny Tremaine's Avatar
    If Nokia is in as bad a shape as they say then MS has only two choices:

    1. Buy Nokia and (I hate to do this) gut it out. Keep only the parts needed for production of the Surface and W8 phones, everything else gets S--- canned! Of course there will be a Surface phon-let/padfone ;) And this needs to happen like yesterday or it will end up like HP & Palm. As for Nokia's designs... Meh! I've never owned one and if they were so awesome then people would be buying there phones but there not.

    2. MS cuts there ties with Nokia and goes looking for another partner.
    Unfortunately for Nokia, Microsoft would only need to poach the best talent in smartphone design at Nokia, that still stuck around, and then wait for the eventual Nokia bankruptcy and liquidation to scoop up the production facilities at fire sale prices.

    Another negative for Nokia, is that it looks like their best talent have been sprucing up their resumes, and looking elsewhere for employment. The brain drain may be the final nail in the coffin. Multiple stories on the tech blogs about Nokia engineers leaving the company.

    After all, who wants to be the last guy off the HMS Nokia, as it slips below the waves?

    The Finnish government won't save them either; they've already ruled that out, and besides, why should they, when Nokia has already shut down their domestic facilities and shifted production to Asia?
    07-06-2012 09:09 AM
  11. tekhna's Avatar
    If Nokia is in as bad a shape as they say then MS has only two choices:

    1. Buy Nokia and (I hate to do this) gut it out. Keep only the parts needed for production of the Surface and W8 phones, everything else gets S--- canned! Of course there will be a Surface phon-let/padfone ;) And this needs to happen like yesterday or it will end up like HP & Palm. As for Nokia's designs... Meh! I've never owned one and if they were so awesome then people would be buying there phones but there not.

    2. MS cuts there ties with Nokia and goes looking for another partner.
    But Microsoft doesn't need Nokia for production, there is tons of production capacity in Asia.

    Frankly, with Nokia's stock well under 2.00 a share, I'm shocked they haven't been bought yet. And the only reason why, that I can think of, is people think Nokia is actually worthless, and so they are just waiting for it to keep spiraling down.
    07-06-2012 09:41 AM
  12. sinime's Avatar
    It's too bad MS didn't have the foresight to make a hobbled version of WP7 that ran on WP8 hardware. Have cores temporarily locked, temporary useless external memory slots, etc.. And make the gen 2 phones upgradable with all the new features just dormant waiting for an OS upgrade. Nokia might not be in this mess and the announcement of only gen 1 phones not getting WP8 would have been a lot easier for the public to swallow. People would happy buying a Nokia phone now, knowing full and well that 8 was on the way.
    snowmutt likes this.
    07-06-2012 10:12 AM
  13. snowmutt's Avatar
    It's too bad MS didn't have the foresight to make a hobbled version of WP7 that ran on WP8 hardware. Have cores temporarily locked, temporary useless external memory slots, etc.. And make the gen 2 phones upgradable with all the new features just dormant waiting for an OS upgrade. Nokia might not be in this mess and the announcement of only gen 1 phones not getting WP8 would have been a lot easier for the public to swallow. People would happy buying a Nokia phone now, knowing full and well that 8 was on the way.
    Beats the living crap out of me why manufacturers - ESPECIALLY Nokia- didn't do it themselves. Microsoft gave minimum standards.

    Nokia could have put dual core devices out on the 900 at least (although I think the 800 should have gotten it as well), and included the same type of graphic chips on Android devices to prepare it for the future. On top of that, it gave one more selling point against Android and the iPhone.

    Always baffled me.
    07-06-2012 10:31 AM
  14. sinime's Avatar
    Heck, Nokia could have even done a really odd one, sell a WP8 device now, that ships with Symbian and is upgradable to WP8 once released. Up to the user to upgrade or not.
    07-06-2012 10:42 AM
  15. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    Heck, Nokia could have even done a really odd one, sell a WP8 device now, that ships with Symbian and is upgradable to WP8 once released. Up to the user to upgrade or not.
    That decision would have baffled me personally... but Microsoft would probably have got cheesed off about it being Symbian not WP7. God only knows why the HTC TITAN wasn't dual-core...
    07-06-2012 11:52 AM
  16. AKA Preluva's Avatar
    Whatever happens MS had better do something quick. The stinch of death is on Nokia and if MS isn't carefully it will start to stick to Windows phone! Once that happens the perception will be WinPhone won't be around long so why buy it.
    07-06-2012 04:23 PM
  17. socialcarpet's Avatar
    As for Nokia's designs... Meh! I've never owned one and if they were so awesome then people would be buying there phones but there not.
    Uh, yeah they are. Nokia is selling Lumia 900's as fast as they can build them. Where have you been?

    The only reason Nokia is in such rough shape overall sales-wise is that the Lumia still only represents a very small part of the overall sales of a very big company. Their other phones are declining in sales in large part due to the fact that fewer and fewer people want the dated Symbian OS that most of their phones still run.

    Trust me, they're awesome. Have a look at the PureView 808. It's got hands down the best camera any smartphone has every had, by several orders of magnitude. It's a 41 MEGAPIXEL camera that downsizes the file but retains most of the quality. It takes better pictures than a lot of SLR's and easily destroys ANY camera phone out there. Unfortunately it too is hamstrung with the Symbian OS for now, but you can count on seeing the same technology in a Windows Phone before too long.

    Nokia has a long history of good design and I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but the Korean junk makers just crank out plastic clones and they wouldn't know a creative or original thought if it fell on their heads like an anvil. All they know how to do is copy each other and everyone else and add a few more inches of screen here, a few more mhz there.

    There is no "art" to anything they do. Every Korean and Chinese smartphone I've ever seen has about as much flavor as uncooked tofu.

    If we lose Nokia, we'll all be using tofu phones. I really hope it doesn't come to that.
    07-06-2012 05:48 PM
  18. socialcarpet's Avatar
    Whatever happens MS had better do something quick. The stinch of death is on Nokia and if MS isn't carefully it will start to stick to Windows phone! Once that happens the perception will be WinPhone won't be around long so why buy it.
    If Nokia fails, it could hurt the public perception of Windows Phone, but far more damaging will be the loss of the only partner totally committed to the platform, the only one who doesn't half-heartedly slap Windows Phone on Android devices and shovel them out the door with no advertising and little support.

    It will be the Korean/Taiwanese/Chinese love of Android crap and lack of loyalty to Windows Phone that will be the nail in the coffin.
    07-06-2012 05:51 PM
  19. Johnny Tremaine's Avatar
    But Microsoft doesn't need Nokia for production, there is tons of production capacity in Asia.

    Frankly, with Nokia's stock well under 2.00 a share, I'm shocked they haven't been bought yet. And the only reason why, that I can think of, is people think Nokia is actually worthless, and so they are just waiting for it to keep spiraling down.
    There was a story a couple weeks ago that Microsoft actually considered buying Nokia last year, but once the guys from Redmond took a look at Nokia's books (finances), they slowly backed away in horror.

    I'm thinking that the Nokians have a ton of obligations and debts on their ledgers, that only a bankruptcy proceeding, unfortunately for them, can unwind.
    07-08-2012 07:30 AM
  20. socialcarpet's Avatar
    There was a story a couple weeks ago that Microsoft actually considered buying Nokia last year, but once the guys from Redmond took a look at Nokia's books (finances), they slowly backed away in horror.

    I'm thinking that the Nokians have a ton of obligations and debts on their ledgers, that only a bankruptcy proceeding, unfortunately for them, can unwind.
    Probably that, or selling off big chunks of the company, which I think they are already beginning to do.
    07-08-2012 10:59 AM
  21. tekhna's Avatar
    Probably that, or selling off big chunks of the company, which I think they are already beginning to do.
    It boggles my mind that Samsung's quarterly profit is almost exactly the same amount as Nokia's market capitalization.
    07-08-2012 11:51 AM
  22. socialcarpet's Avatar
    It boggles my mind that Samsung's quarterly profit is almost exactly the same amount as Nokia's market capitalization.
    It boggles my mind that someone could pick up any of Samsung's cheap feeling plastic phones with that tacky TouchWiz skin running on it and a ridiculously oversaturated screen and feel like it was something they want to own, but there's no accounting for taste I guess.
    07-08-2012 01:23 PM
  23. hulawafu77's Avatar
    Have any of you seen how phenomenol and incredible Windows 8 is on PC? Win8 I think will be an even bigger hit than Win7 which is the fastest selling OS ever. The seamless integration among PC, Tablet and Phone on Win8 is genius. I highly doubt Win8 will fail.

    Sent from my SGH-i937 using Board Express
    07-08-2012 02:15 PM
  24. AKA Preluva's Avatar
    Uh, yeah they are. Nokia is selling Lumia 900's as fast as they can build them. Where have you been?

    The only reason Nokia is in such rough shape overall sales-wise is that the Lumia still only represents a very small part of the overall sales of a very big company. Their other phones are declining in sales in large part due to the fact that fewer and fewer people want the dated Symbian OS that most of their phones still run.

    Trust me, they're awesome. Have a look at the PureView 808. It's got hands down the best camera any smartphone has every had, by several orders of magnitude. It's a 41 MEGAPIXEL camera that downsizes the file but retains most of the quality. It takes better pictures than a lot of SLR's and easily destroys ANY camera phone out there. Unfortunately it too is hamstrung with the Symbian OS for now, but you can count on seeing the same technology in a Windows Phone before too long.

    Nokia has a long history of good design and I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but the Korean junk makers just crank out plastic clones and they wouldn't know a creative or original thought if it fell on their heads like an anvil. All they know how to do is copy each other and everyone else and add a few more inches of screen here, a few more mhz there.

    There is no "art" to anything they do. Every Korean and Chinese smartphone I've ever seen has about as much flavor as uncooked tofu.

    If we lose Nokia, we'll all be using tofu phones. I really hope it doesn't come to that.

    Well I dunno... I'm on the "Maybe some day!" network so I've not seen a Lumia but from what I've read it's hard to say. Some, (like you) say it's flying off the shelves and others say sales are limping along so who knows! As for the camera... Meh! :dry Don't give a hoot. If I want to take great pix I have a digital camera for that.

    I've had two Samsung phones and for there time I thought they were great. I just looked at the GS III and was amazed at how light it was. Still too small for me but with Win8 on it I'd have to take another look. ;)
    07-09-2012 09:12 PM
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